Please increase sources of Elemental Empowerment, even benchmarks struggle to keep up 10 stacks.

[Zhaid Zhem.6508]

10 minutes ago, Nephalem.8921 said:

Designing the gm effect around an allied support tempest? i know the devs do questionable things but they are not this bad.

 

Obviously, but the issue then is the GM trait, not to reach 10 stacks alone.

[Bleikopf.2491]

Of course. That explains why Tempest got shafted witht he EoD launch and no longer has 10 targets and neither Quickness nor Alacrity. Because they're now needed for the supreme 5 Ele comp! /s

[Demented Lemur.7861]

On 3/31/2022 at 3:55 PM, SeTect.5918 said:

Well this topic is about the Access to "Elemental Empowerment".
There was nothing about Elemental Empowerment (except "Empowered Empowerment", which has nothing to do with the access of Elemental Empowerment) in the 29th march patch. This means: This benchmark and build still has the same issues.
It goes from 10 stacks to 5-9 stacks on:

• 0:18-0:20
• 0:26
• 0:34-0:37
• 0:39-0:41
• 0:42-0:45
• 0:51-0:54
• 1:00-1:01
• 1:06-1:10
• 1:13-1:15
• 1:16-1:18
• 1:25-1:27
• 1:34-1:36
• 1:40-1:41
• 1:41-1:43

Benchmark Done on 1:44

So as you can see, even benchmarks cant hold it on 10 stacks properly, not even close to properly.
And this isnt even a real encounter where you have to dodge. And its with perma alac and quickness.

So just the dps is higher, there is no change to the access to Elemental Empowerment.

Ok but who cares if you are unable to maintain 10 stacks of elemental empowerment if your damage is still pretty. At that point your complaining about not being able to maintain 10 stacks rather than class balance. 

[Bleikopf.2491]

30 minutes ago, Demented Lemur.7861 said:

Ok but who cares if you are unable to maintain 10 stacks of elemental empowerment if your damage is still pretty. At that point your complaining about not being able to maintain 10 stacks rather than class balance. 

Meh, in the end it comes down to reliability. Also, the difference between 10 stacks and 9 stacks is huge. Just thinking about it, 10 stacks is worth more than twice that of 9 stacks. And builds are usually calculated with specific breaking points in mind, which the fluctuating stat buff is messing a lot with. EE is a huge (damage) buff, and not being able to reach 10 stacks is a huge drop, which sucks because damage will naturally be balanced around reaching full stacks most if not all of the time. Which, in the end, just makes it a huge nerf for anyone not able to reach full stacks.

I think it's better for a buff like Elemental Empowerment to be more consistent. Whether that's through adding more CC on hammer, introduce other sources or just lengthen the duration.

[AliamRationem.5172]

The jade sphere traits look okay to me, and obviously there's a place in competitive play for easy stability access.  But the upkeep traits seem pretty weak.  I mean, 20% trait buff is nothing to sneeze at, but it has automatic ramp-up and you have to basically dedicate your entire trait allotment in all tiers to make it work.  Does this seem fair?  And the damage and damage reduction upkeep traits seem painfully short-lived yet don't provide stronger buffs than other classes and trait lines provide passively.  What gives here?

I guess I wish we had some options that were generally more interesting relating to the combo field interactions.  And just less annoying with the upkeep mechanics.  I can't see taking these traits over the boons provided by the jade sphere line.  But the obvious problem with that is you don't always need those and in cases where you don't your other options seem pretty meh.  Needs work, imo.

[SeTect.5918]

1 hour ago, Demented Lemur.7861 said:

Ok but who cares if you are unable to maintain 10 stacks of elemental empowerment if your damage is still pretty. At that point your complaining about not being able to maintain 10 stacks rather than class balance. 

Your damage wont be pretty if you hang on 9 stacks of less most of the time.
I used benchmarks as an example because even they cant keep up 10 stacks properly. The point is that in a real fight it will be 9 or less stacks most of the time, which is a giant dps loss that other e specs of ele and other classes dont have because their bonuses are far easier to maintain. (Example: Weaver's_Prowess and Elements_of_Rage give a similar bonus but are far easier to maintain perma even in real fights -> Weavers benchmark is more realistic because it holds the bonuses perma also in real fights, while Catalyst does not.)

I am both complaining about not being able to maintain10 stacks and also about class balance because 1 thing affects the other thing.

[Demented Lemur.7861]

17 hours ago, SeTect.5918 said:

Your damage wont be pretty if you hang on 9 stacks of less most of the time.
I used benchmarks as an example because even they cant keep up 10 stacks properly. The point is that in a real fight it will be 9 or less stacks most of the time, which is a giant dps loss that other e specs of ele and other classes dont have because their bonuses are far easier to maintain. (Example: Weaver's_Prowess and Elements_of_Rage give a similar bonus but are far easier to maintain perma even in real fights -> Weavers benchmark is more realistic because it holds the bonuses perma also in real fights, while Catalyst does not.)

I am both complaining about not being able to maintain10 stacks and also about class balance because 1 thing affects the other thing.

But no class will ever match golem benchmark in a raid encounter. Ele is not a special case here. The point is that in a controlled environment catalyst benchmarks are fine despite not necessarily always maintaining 10 stacks. Will there be a DPS loss in an actual raid encounter? yeah. Is this any different from any other spec? No it isn't. 

 

There is no espec that you will be able to consistently match golem benchmarks during a raid encounter cata is not a special case

[Bleikopf.2491]

34 minutes ago, Demented Lemur.7861 said:

But no class will ever match golem benchmark in a raid encounter. Ele is not a special case here. The point is that in a controlled environment catalyst benchmarks are fine despite not necessarily always maintaining 10 stacks. Will there be a DPS loss in an actual raid encounter? yeah. Is this any different from any other spec? No it isn't. 

 

There is no espec that you will be able to consistently match golem benchmarks during a raid encounter cata is not a special case

It was never the claim that Catalyst has to match the golem benchmark. 

It's about maintaining 10 stacks being too unreliable considering the huge difference it makes, that even in perfect conditions it's not possible to keep it up. Therefore, in realistic conditions it's obviously way less likely. EE is too big a difference from 9 to 10 stacks to make it so unreliable. Catalyst also has to be balanced around those mythical 10 stacks for a big part.

Just imagine might would switch between 0 stacks and 25 stacks; no inbetween. 

[SeTect.5918]

46 minutes ago, Demented Lemur.7861 said:

But no class will ever match golem benchmark in a raid encounter. Ele is not a special case here. The point is that in a controlled environment catalyst benchmarks are fine despite not necessarily always maintaining 10 stacks. Will there be a DPS loss in an actual raid encounter? yeah. Is this any different from any other spec?

Yes it is, because as I said in my example, other e specs and classes can maintain their bonuses far easier.

Did you even read my comment?

Losing over 11% crit chance, power, ferocity, vitality and toughness is far more than any other class or e specs loses in a real encounter compared to benchmarks.

Catalyst has 2 kinds of bonuses. 1 kind are the aura traits and the other kind is Elemental Empowerment. Both are extremely hard to maintain full stacks and Elemental Empowerment even impossible in most scenarios.
Weaver has the temporary bonuses I listed in my comment above, Weaver can hold these bonuses also in real fights.
Renegade has a bonus on their fury and renegade has perma fury.
Bladesworn has bonus ferocity if you hit with an explosion. This bonus is ultra easy so keep up on an e spec with tons of explosions (The bonus even stacks duration up to 10 seconds).
Spellbreaker has increased power, precision and ferocity if you cc or remove a boon. It has some ccs and tons of traits to remove boons.
...

All e specs have no problems holding their bonuses up in benchmarks and most likely also no problem in real fights.
But Catalyst struggles with their bonuses in both benchmarks and real fights.

Thats the point.
So yes, it is different when it comes to other e specs.

Fact is that other e specs dont struggle with their bonuses that much. Not even close to that.

No other e spec loses 11% crit chance + 11% power +11% ferocity + 11% toughness + 11% vitality (and more, the more stats you use) just bc its a real encounter.

Edited April 3, 2022 by SeTect.5918

[Junkpile.7439]

Catalyst gameplay idea should be try to get 10 stacks and after that next skill would do 1000% more damage. Counter play of course would be try to keep catalyst under 10 stacks and dodge big one shot if catalyst get 10 stacks. That would be interesting gameplay.

[The Boz.2038]

If you missed it, the thread.

TL;DR Getting and maintaining the EEs in a reliable, predictible manner is a huge issue. Introducing *three* separate buffs to keep tabs on too. Redesigning traits and adding a reset-EE-durations effect is needed.

[SeTect.5918]

Guess i Was dreaming they would change anything about this.

But they decided to just straight nerf catalyst even tho it wasn't overperforming at all. Yey....

[Zunki.3916]

Get rid of the dmg hammer 3 10% dmg buff, make it easy to maintain 10 stacks, make the trait give double bonus regardless if stacks are maxed, then get rid of the 10% penalty from quickness:

• far less punishing
• no bad feeling about the quickness 10% debuff any more
• suddenly the groundwork for other weapons being useful is laid and not only hammer due to op hammer 3 dmg bonus
• have actual feelgood balance Oo

Edited June 27, 2022 by Zunki.3916

[kapenike.6793]

They actually added a permanent source for this not too long ago! Its called tempest support. Should be more meta with alac coming

[SeTect.5918]

On 6/28/2022 at 2:19 AM, kapenike.6793 said:

They actually added a permanent source for this not too long ago! Its called tempest support. Should be more meta with alac coming

And then it happened. 

"Hardened Auras, Empowering Auras, Staunch Auras, and Elemental Epitome: These traits will now only trigger when the catalyst grants an aura to themselves, rather than when gaining an aura from any player."

At least catalyst deals nice dmg now.

I mean..at least for this month until the nerf hammer drops down in catalyst-faces.

[Blood Red Arachnid.2493]

42 minutes ago, SeTect.5918 said:

And then it happened. 

"Hardened Auras, Empowering Auras, Staunch Auras, and Elemental Epitome: These traits will now only trigger when the catalyst grants an aura to themselves, rather than when gaining an aura from any player."

At least catalyst deals nice dmg now.

I mean..at least for this month until the nerf hammer drops down in catalyst-faces.

There's a chance they might not nerf it.  The balance team is finally starting to realize that perfect golem DPS doesn't necessarily translate into boss performance, and there's no better example of this than the catalyst.  Cata loses momentum very quickly if the enemies move, or if the cata goes down, or if enemies go invuln for a bit.  Cata has to manage energy and precise cooldowns with stationary attacks that require large hitboxes to do all of their damage.  Sure, it is fun to bench MO with it, but it can be unending frustration against other bosses.  

[Serephen.3420]

4 hours ago, Blood Red Arachnid.2493 said:

There's a chance they might not nerf it.  The balance team is finally starting to realize that perfect golem DPS doesn't necessarily translate into boss performance, and there's no better example of this than the catalyst.  Cata loses momentum very quickly if the enemies move, or if the cata goes down, or if enemies go invuln for a bit.  Cata has to manage energy and precise cooldowns with stationary attacks that require large hitboxes to do all of their damage.  Sure, it is fun to bench MO with it, but it can be unending frustration against other bosses.  

For all our cata sakes I hope they keep it like it is now.

[Infusion.7149]

10 minutes ago, Serephen.3420 said:

For all our cata sakes I hope they keep it like it is now.

My guess is they  would change the Elemental Empowerment stacks to be less "all or nothing" and make it similar to other professions where each stack is worth more.

I don't see the hammer orbs staying 0.1 coefficient since it's still far more than the 0.001 they were before and there's passive benefits for having the orbs up. If the overall playerbase is to have better use of hammer then they would revert the 0.5 coefficient on water attunement autos (Stream Strike and Water Rush were reduced in June from 0.8 and 1.1 coefficient respectively).

[Serephen.3420]

15 minutes ago, Infusion.7149 said:

My guess is they  would change the Elemental Empowerment stacks to be less "all or nothing" and make it similar to other professions where each stack is worth more.

I don't see the hammer orbs staying 0.1 coefficient since it's still far more than the 0.001 they were before and there's passive benefits for having the orbs up. If the overall playerbase is to have better use of hammer then they would revert the 0.5 coefficient on water attunement autos (Stream Strike and Water Rush were reduced in June from 0.8 and 1.1 coefficient respectively).

Making EE more user friendly would be nice, I would hope they don't hurt the orb damage too much, and any they do shave off, that they'll spread it to other skills like the auto attacks. 

[AliamRationem.5172]

15 hours ago, Blood Red Arachnid.2493 said:

There's a chance they might not nerf it.  The balance team is finally starting to realize that perfect golem DPS doesn't necessarily translate into boss performance, and there's no better example of this than the catalyst.  Cata loses momentum very quickly if the enemies move, or if the cata goes down, or if enemies go invuln for a bit.  Cata has to manage energy and precise cooldowns with stationary attacks that require large hitboxes to do all of their damage.  Sure, it is fun to bench MO with it, but it can be unending frustration against other bosses.  

I hate to rain on the parade, but according to Roul from SC:

"One of the kills we did in our class-testing raids (conclusion was that catalyst is top tier pretty much everywhere..."

So, while everyone isn't Roul, it's probably not accurate to suggest that this is only able to overperform on a golem and the same logic could be used to justify much higher benchmarks on a number of other specs which catalyst currently outperforms dramatically.  I don't see this standing the test of time.

Having said that, I think it would be good if when they rebalance the output appropriately they address some of the concerns that make the class difficult to perform well with.  I also think too much of the damage is linked to the hammer currently.  So there's opportunity there to improve the spec and not just trim its numbers.

[Nephalem.8921]

23 hours ago, Blood Red Arachnid.2493 said:

There's a chance they might not nerf it.  The balance team is finally starting to realize that perfect golem DPS doesn't necessarily translate into boss performance, and there's no better example of this than the catalyst.  Cata loses momentum very quickly if the enemies move, or if the cata goes down, or if enemies go invuln for a bit.  Cata has to manage energy and precise cooldowns with stationary attacks that require large hitboxes to do all of their damage.  Sure, it is fun to bench MO with it, but it can be unending frustration against other bosses.  

The only skill scaling with hitbox size is lightning storm.

[Blood Red Arachnid.2493]

2 hours ago, Nephalem.8921 said:

The only skill scaling with hitbox size is lightning storm.

 

Unless I'm mistaken, Triple Sear also requires a large hitbox.  

[Blood Red Arachnid.2493]

10 hours ago, AliamRationem.5172 said:

I hate to rain on the parade, but according to Roul from SC:

"One of the kills we did in our class-testing raids (conclusion was that catalyst is top tier pretty much everywhere..."

So, while everyone isn't Roul, it's probably not accurate to suggest that this is only able to overperform on a golem and the same logic could be used to justify much higher benchmarks on a number of other specs which catalyst currently outperforms dramatically.  I don't see this standing the test of time.

Having said that, I think it would be good if when they rebalance the output appropriately they address some of the concerns that make the class difficult to perform well with.  I also think too much of the damage is linked to the hammer currently.  So there's opportunity there to improve the spec and not just trim its numbers.

Most players aren't elite raiders.  I took cata testing in pug strikes, and it was a nightmare when compared to other professions  If enemies camp in damage patches, or aggro on a player who doesn't sit still, or if one of the mechanics goes wrong and you start taking pulsing damage, or if they get focused mechanically the performance of cata really drops.  The cata needs to maintain energy gain, use Augments at the right time in the right jade spheres, and they need an enemy that stands still.  All of that can go wrong very easily, and an elite raid group is one of the few places where it won't... as often.  

[Nephalem.8921]

22 hours ago, Blood Red Arachnid.2493 said:

 

Unless I'm mistaken, Triple Sear also requires a large hitbox.  

You are mistaken. Those hitboxes overlap in the middle. you can even hit other players with all 3.

[Junkpile.7439]

Thing is that elemental empowerment is too weak and too easy to get. Damage should be massive after you get 10 stacks (like one shot massive), but enemy knows this so he try to keep you under 10 stacks. That would be cool trait and actually fun game play.