Killproofing with proofs from other kind of content is way too common

[Erise.5614]

18 minutes ago, Asum.4960 said:

KP gating isn't a personal attack against you or your skill, nor does anyone imply or say that any individual player without LI is a bad player, nor that any individual player with high LI is a good player. 

What's an indisputable fact though is that on average groups that ask for LI clear content much smoother and faster, deal with less leavers and tbh, generally are far less prone to toxicity due to different mentalities clashing - as can be the case with all welcome groups, as well as making group building far easier by getting players that on average are much more likely to being able to cover multiple roles on demand. 

 

So no, players at large don't just KP gate their groups (not the content) because they are elitist and just want to exclude people for the heck of it. 

I'd even go as far to assume that most players who gate do so regretfully. I certainly didn't ever want to exclude any competent, enthusiastic players just because they are new, or whatever the case might be. Quite the opposite.

But frankly, while I prefer doing all welcome runs and such when playing casually now and then, whenever I play some more hardcore content regularly, KP gating sooner or later is almost a must, otherwise people constantly refusing the communicate their roles, not listening to mechanic explanations, not learning, quitting mid runs, flaming other players who are trying to give them tips due to getting defensive, etc., just becomes a mental health hazard. 

Gating groups with LI and the like is heavily flawed, yes. It excludes already competent or enthusiastic to learn new players, it stifles growth of content playerbases, it doesn't guarantee any individual to be a competent player etc., but what it also does - on average - is get things done, in an efficient and on average more friendly and communicative environment at that.

That is the problem though. This increase in efficiency literally is what gatekeeping means. Of course it's beneficial for the in group. That's why it's so common everywhere it's possible. 

But when gatekeeping becomes the standard it's always harmful in general as it also prevents growth and sharing of knowledge. Instead it fosters segregation. 

All of what you say is true. But it's in part responsible for killing raids as content format and it's happening quite wide spread too in strikes. (Edit: Not necessarily in volume. Maybe tons more groups are filling up instantly and playing without a problem. But these are the posterchild groups that everyone sees first thing).

A part of the player base is relying so heavily on KP, on gatekeeping that even a minute or so longer in content is unacceptable. Communicating with newer players is unacceptable. And it's happening at a scale where it feels very prominent in content where it doesn't even serve much purpose.

Edited April 2, 2022 by Erise.5614

[Veprovina.4876]

2 minutes ago, Erise.5614 said:

That is the problem though. This increase in efficiency literally is what gatekeeping means. Of course it's beneficial for the in group. That's why it's so common everywhere it's possible. 

But when gatekeeping becomes the standard it's always harmful in general as it also prevents growth and sharing of knowledge. Instead it fosters segregation. 

All of what you say is true. But it's in part responsible for killing raids as content format and are starting to do the same to strikes.

A part of the player base is relying so heavily on KP, on gatekeeping that even a minute or so longer in content is unacceptable. Communicating with newer players is unacceptable. And it's happening at a scale where it's actually a problem. 

I know i was the one that was quoted, but i couldn't have said it better myself so... Agree.

And one of the ugly results of that gatekeeping is, among others, selling clears. 

How's that not gatekeeping when, you're only welcome if you have KP, and if you don't, pay us to "carry you".

In a content that doesn't need carrying.

[Cyninja.2954]

41 minutes ago, Veprovina.4876 said:

I disagree with that too. The recent open world fiasco has nothing to do with difficulty and everything to do with bad design. Overlapping mechanics, short *random* windows where you actually get to attack the boss, 3 hour commitment to the map without any rewards (making people not want to even try to be good at the event), and the antithesis of the design philosophy that Anet was careful to follow all those years, that went down the drain with 1 map event for the sake of "difficulty" which is - you should never feel bad for meeting another player in open world. Yet you have a huge event that should have been an instanced version like Dragonstorm, in the same realm as people trying to do fishing achievements.

And now you have people telling people to GTFO the map or even paying them off. How's that for being happy about meeting and playing with other players?

 

The event ferments toxicity, and needs to go away from open world, but it has nothing to do with difficulty.

It has everything to do with difficulty. If the average player not exposed to semi challenging content in this game was not universes away performance wise from what players who understand game mechanics do, the issue would not exist.

 

Alas, they are.

Quote

That's because it shouldn't exist. And i'm glad it doesn't because you'd get the same elitism raids do, and people are already scaring everyone on how hard strikes are and then selling clears. Meanwhile, i exclusively run pug groups and we clear all the same. Maybe it lasts a few minutes longer.

Raid KP have no meaning even in raids, let alone outside of them, and if Anet wants to push people towards strikes so much, they're going to need to keep all that raid nonesense out of it. Why?

Well, because i've had people who were terrified about joining my squad, that they'll be a burden, that they'll mess up somehow or that they'll be stressed the entire strike because of the difficulty and in the end they ended up having fun and thanking me.

KP only adds to that overblown sense of difficulty and prevents people from trying, making this little exclusive circle of only raiders that will inevitably start selling strikes to people who were scared off by that same group. This is basically raiders trying to somehow monopolize content. 

 

You said it yourself: raid KP are bad at judging how "good" a player is at strikes. That's what not having KP for strikes did.

 

Gatekeeping and the desire from players to play with similar skilled players will not go away. KP are a result of this desire, not the cause of it.

Quote

No, sorry, you're wrong. In raids - although it fails to do that - as a preselection as you mentioned, sure. I get why in raids KP exists.

But i'm talking about strikes, and taking something from raiding, the hardest content, into strikes - an easy content by comparison - is elitist. Because it assumes only raiders are skilled enough to clear strikes, and that's a big fat lie. Everyone can clear strikes, you don't even need a full squad to do some of them. It needlesly intimidates players who would otherwise have been great at strikes from trying them, leaving only an "elite" group to do them. Hence - elitist.

In raids - yes, they serve a purpose, although a flawed one.

In strikes - they are exclusionary, and fearmongering.

 

Easy is relative. For a great amount of players, breaking a 200 defiance break bar is an impossible to overcome task, for others, it's the press of 1 button.

 

Using KP from raids for strikes just shows 1 thing: it's not about raids. It's about finding a specific type of player. For that purpose, fractal KP used to work, or boneskinner vials. That's because it is currently not possible to judge a players experience with strikes.

 

The main issue here is: far to many players want others to do the work for them. Make the group/squad for them. Do the mechanics for them. Deal with the LFG for them. etc. I already mentioned how my non KP squad filled up in sub 3 seconds and was successful last night. Every player can imitate that, and if you can't then there is something one should work on.

Edited April 2, 2022 by Cyninja.2954

[Asum.4960]

4 hours ago, Erise.5614 said:

That is the problem though. This increase in efficiency literally is what gatekeeping means. Of course it's beneficial for the in group. That's why it's so common everywhere it's possible. 

But when gatekeeping becomes the standard it's always harmful in general as it also prevents growth and sharing of knowledge. Instead it fosters segregation. 

All of what you say is true. But it's in part responsible for killing raids as content format and it's happening quite wide spread too in strikes. (Edit: Not necessarily in volume. Maybe tons more groups are filling up instantly and playing without a problem. But these are the posterchild groups that everyone sees first thing).

A part of the player base is relying so heavily on KP, on gatekeeping that even a minute or so longer in content is unacceptable. Communicating with newer players is unacceptable. And it's happening at a scale where it feels very prominent in content where it doesn't even serve much purpose.

Edit: Thinking about it, I'm actually worried about CMs in that regard. Really hope they add a tab for that so it doesn't fill up the same list again. That'd be terrible in a lot of ways. 

I generally agree with your sentiment and I would like to see the need for KP gating gone as much as anyone, although one important factor to recognize is that KP is merely a symptom - not the problem itself. 

The segregation in the community far preceded it, resulting in the need for tools like KP, as flawed as they may be - not the other way around. 

People don't get started on Raids looking to eventually KP gate themselves. They come out of that content having experienced some of the behavior of other players that eventually makes them gate.

 

And it's also not the case that "communicating with new player's is unacceptable". We are talking about a community here that constantly spends hours and hours to publish Encounter Guides, Build Guides, organises Training runs, websites, communities, etc., trying to approach players and convince them that this content really ain't that hard, or the community not nearly as "toxic", as they may have been lead to believe. 

 

But ingame, you can only approach and welcome players new to the content at hand so many times, when as response you are just as likely to get people flaming you in hostile tirades born out of insecurity and entitlement, than people being grateful for some guidance on builds and encounter mechanics. 

 

Do I think the more "hardcore" oriented community needs to be more open and welcoming to newer players in the pugging scene? Yes, absolutely.

But that doesn't work (or isn't fair to expect) as long as large parts of the more "casual" community, partially due to genuinely having no idea just how little they are contributing, respond in toxic tirades to anyone offering guidance about how they are toxic elitists for trying to tell them how to play, or that what they are currently doing isn't working. 

This issue is far from one sided, and Raiders and the like aren't some monolithic boogeyman. 

 

The core problem at hand is the immense skill gap between players that emerges through the game's design and tuning. 

As long as players can play through 10 years of content, reach max level and play through 2+ expansions without ever having to learn even the core game mechanics such as breakbars or the power of boons, or having any concept of how much (or rather little) damage they are actually doing - there will always be problematic clashes in the few types of content in this game that actually tests it's players, while also asking them to rely on each other's skill to succeed as a group. 

 

If that get's fixed (and EoD, for what it could do as just one expansion, did try a lot to make this better), the resulting symptoms of community segregation, gating and so on, largely disappear on their own due to simply not being necessary/all that beneficial anymore. 

 

If only this community could come together to campaign against the problem (through demanding things like better tutorialization for the game, gently ramping difficulty throughout the core game - adjusted to the power creep over the years, repeated testing of game knowledge until it becomes second nature rather than infrequent and frustrating skill checks) rather than fight each other over it's symptoms.

Edited April 2, 2022 by Asum.4960

[Fuchslein.8639]

33 minutes ago, Asum.4960 said:

I generally agree with your sentiment and I would like to see the need for KP gating gone as much as anyone, although one important factor to recognize is that KP is merely a symptom - not the problem itself. 

The segregation in the community far preceded it, resulting in the need for tools like KP, as flawed as they may be - not the other way around. 

People don't get started on Raids looking to eventually KP gate themselves. They come out of that content having experienced some of the behavior of other players that eventually makes them gate.

 

And it's also not the case that "communicating with new player's is unacceptable". We are talking about a community here that constantly spends hours and hours to publish Encounter Guides, Build Guides, organises Training runs, websites, communities, etc., trying to approach players and convince them that this content really ain't that hard, or the community not nearly as "toxic", as they may have been lead to believe. 

 

But ingame, you can only approach and welcome players new to the content at hand so many times, when as response you are just as likely to get people flaming you in hostile tirades born out of insecurity and entitlement, than people being grateful for some guidance on builds and encounter mechanics. 

 

Do I think the more "hardcore" oriented community needs to be more open and welcoming to newer players in the pugging scene? Yes, absolutely.

But that doesn't work as long as large parts of the more "casual" community, due to genuinely having no idea just how little they are contributing, respond in toxic tirades to anyone offering guidance about how they are toxic elitists for trying to tell them how to play, or that what they are currently doing isn't working. 

This issue is far from one sided, and Raiders and the like aren't some monolithic boogeyman. 

 

The core problem at hand is the immense skill gap between players that emerges through the game's design and tuning. 

As long as players can play through 10 years of content, reach max level and play through 2+ expansions without ever having to learn even the core game mechanics such as breakbars or the power of boons, or having any concept of how much (or rather little) damage they are actually doing - there will always be problematic clashes in the few types of content in this game that actually tests it's players, while also asking them to rely on each other's skill to succeed as a group. 

 

If that get's fixed (and EoD, for what it could do as just one expansion, did try a lot to make this better), the resulting symptoms of community segregation, gating and so on, largely disappear on their own due to simply not being necessary/all that beneficial anymore. 

 

If only this community could come together to campaign against the problem (through demanding things like better tutorialization for the game, gently ramping difficulty throughout the core game - adjusted to the power creep over the years, repeated testing of game knowledge until it becomes second nature rather than infrequent and frustrating skill checks) rather than fight each other over it's symptoms.

This is why i wrote, that an ingame way for seeing if someone did do xy content, wouldn't work in GW2.
Such a thing would just move the Main-Problem and would bring more problems, because is the same topic as people asking for arc-dps or Gear-show ingame. People would not like to show everyone what they did. Heck, i would not like that. I mainly use Arc-DPS for myself in raids.

It would be so easy. People just need to mind their buisnis.(and with that i mean, when someone wants to ask for LI thats okay, and when someone don't want this, thats also okay, he can make his own group) But casuals and "hardcore"-players are mostly on the same topix of toxity. Both sides just need to chill out and play the game the way they like.
But this would really be an Utopia i would really want to see.

The funny-thing, in my years of raiding the people who crapped over other people because of dmg, experience and stuff, wheren't mostly the Raiders i know. I myself and a lot people i know, try to help newbees again and again. People i know even go as far, to equip people newbees so they can raid whitout farming for the exo or asc-stuff. And you don't want to know, how many casuals did take advantage of this. Would I therefore react exactly like many here in the forum and now see all casuals as the evil, I would be permanently stressed xD.

Edited April 2, 2022 by Fuchslein.8639

[garpu.6210]

I haven't, personally, experienced people asking for KP or LI, but I wonder if this is a result of the influx of players from other MMO's that do have such things?  (Like in WoW, it's not uncommon for a raid group to want to see your achievements.) I had someone yell at me for stealing a gathering node the other day in one of the Cantha zones, which hasn't been a thing you could do in WoW for a few years, and has never been an issue in GW2.  Old habits die hard, I guess. 

[mythical.6315]

Those complaining about KP/LI being used will probably not understand why those are being used until they’re on the other side. 

[mindcircus.1506]

5 hours ago, HnRkLnXqZ.1870 said:

How about you move? Leave the LFG to the normal players and make an elitist farming and raid-selling platform on your own? 

So only people who play the way you want should be allowed to use the LFG and assemble teams with likeminded players?

I am neither an "elite farmer" nor am I a raid seller.  My LFG's for strikes generally involve the phrase "all welcome"... I have run hundreds of them.

People who disagree with my approach avoid my listings on the LFG as it does not match their play style. They gladly join a group with people who are more interested in high performance or they start their own.
They do not start forum threads complaining about my desire to play content with likeminded people and ask Arenanet to step in and restrict other people.
They certainly aren't telling me to leave the platform.

[Erise.5614]

2 hours ago, Asum.4960 said:

I generally agree with your sentiment and I would like to see the need for KP gating gone as much as anyone, although one important factor to recognize is that KP is merely a symptom - not the problem itself. 

The segregation in the community far preceded it, resulting in the need for tools like KP, as flawed as they may be - not the other way around. 

People don't get started on Raids looking to eventually KP gate themselves. They come out of that content having experienced some of the behavior of other players that eventually makes them gate.

 

And it's also not the case that "communicating with new player's is unacceptable". We are talking about a community here that constantly spends hours and hours to publish Encounter Guides, Build Guides, organises Training runs, websites, communities, etc., trying to approach players and convince them that this content really ain't that hard, or the community not nearly as "toxic", as they may have been lead to believe. 

 

But ingame, you can only approach and welcome players new to the content at hand so many times, when as response you are just as likely to get people flaming you in hostile tirades born out of insecurity and entitlement, than people being grateful for some guidance on builds and encounter mechanics. 

 

Do I think the more "hardcore" oriented community needs to be more open and welcoming to newer players in the pugging scene? Yes, absolutely.

But that doesn't work as long as large parts of the more "casual" community, due to genuinely having no idea just how little they are contributing, respond in toxic tirades to anyone offering guidance about how they are toxic elitists for trying to tell them how to play, or that what they are currently doing isn't working. 

This issue is far from one sided, and Raiders and the like aren't some monolithic boogeyman. 

 

The core problem at hand is the immense skill gap between players that emerges through the game's design and tuning. 

As long as players can play through 10 years of content, reach max level and play through 2+ expansions without ever having to learn even the core game mechanics such as breakbars or the power of boons, or having any concept of how much (or rather little) damage they are actually doing - there will always be problematic clashes in the few types of content in this game that actually tests it's players, while also asking them to rely on each other's skill to succeed as a group. 

 

If that get's fixed (and EoD, for what it could do as just one expansion, did try a lot to make this better), the resulting symptoms of community segregation, gating and so on, largely disappear on their own due to simply not being necessary/all that beneficial anymore. 

 

If only this community could come together to campaign against the problem (through demanding things like better tutorialization for the game, gently ramping difficulty throughout the core game - adjusted to the power creep over the years, repeated testing of game knowledge until it becomes second nature rather than infrequent and frustrating skill checks) rather than fight each other over it's symptoms.

Agree with all of this!

The one big problem with all of this is that one part of this group isn't even aware of any debate, has almost no spokespeople and doesn't invest as much time per individual.

While another isn't just gatekeeping and doing their thing but too many are actively putting blame with the first group if not actively antagonize them.

That needs more standing up to.

And it needs more voices, such as yourself, actively asking for improvements that do not at all benefit themselves right now. That aren't things they want right now. But that lead to a stronger, larger community mid term that can support much more and better content of the kind they enjoy. 

It's not fair or anything of the sorts. But the ball really is in the corner of people who enjoy the high end content.

Everyone else is just gonna participate in this discussion through activity, which mostly means ANets analytics being low and them nerfing or abandoning the content. 

Edited April 2, 2022 by Erise.5614

[mythical.6315]

10 hours ago, chronometria.3708 said:

Raid kill proofs are an obstacle to arenanets vision of strikes being popular content. Someone can do lots of strikes and yet will constantly be blocked from groups due to demands of raid accomplishment.

It would be like needing raid proofs to do fractals.

So long as players are free to create their own groups then KP will not be an obstacle. Without KP, those same players using them are still going to find another means to filter players for the groups that they created. All instanced group content in this game has had players doing this since launch. It’s not going to stop nor is it unique to this game. 

Edited April 2, 2022 by mythical.6315

[Sobx.1758]

While using -for example- LI for content unrelated to raids makes little sense to me (sure, it might show someone is willing to learn the harder content, but it still doesn't show the knowledge/understanding of completely different content), those players are free to choose who they are playing with just like you're free to choose who you want to be playing with. If you dislike the requirements (or lack of them) of someone's squad, then absolutely either join another one or create yours, with your requirements (or, again, with lack of them).

To maybe help you understand the difference between what they're doing in lfg vs what you're doing here: those players don't tell you who you have to play with. All they're doing is choosing who they are playing with. Meanwhile your take on this isn't about your choices you make for yourself -you're trying to decide for other players who they should be playing with, whether or not they want it. Which one do you think is better here?

 

9 hours ago, HnRkLnXqZ.1870 said:

How about you move? Leave the LFG to the normal players and make an elitist farming and raid-selling platform on your own? 

I think you will have a valid point for discussion here the very moment LFG runs out of space for new squads to advertise themselves. Until then... not really.

(btw the person you've responded to just told someone to create their own squad and in your opinion, the valid response here is... telling them to leave the lfg and make their own platform? 😐)

Edited April 2, 2022 by Sobx.1758

[DodonRay.8740]

Dear friends as a daily commander(i always make my own) i want li for strikes/raids. Because there are no ingame incentive for me to carry/teach to newbies. Its design problem and its not my fault. Not every person enjoy to teach people who re lazy to watch youtube guide video and cant do their rotations %70. Everyone wants goodies fast you know. Lets be realist.

I always suggest extra rewards for commanders and incentive for other people when they help.

Just think. Lets assume there are 4 achivements which can be done weekly.

Achiv 1: If  you have a player in squad who havent done this before you ll get extra coffer.(all 10 member)

Achiv 2: If you have a player in squad who havent done this before and everyone survives you ll get extra coffer.(all 10 member)   ---this encourage people teach mechs to the newbie---

Achiv 3: If player you have a player in squad who havent done for 2 months you ll get extra coffer.(all 10 member)

Achiv 4: Commanding squad ll give you extra coffer.(commander only incentive like wvw)

Believe me almost every li requirement group would ve want at least 1 newbie in team. Design can be better but you understand the main theme.

Edited April 2, 2022 by DodonRay.8740

[Sobx.1758]

16 minutes ago, DodonRay.8740 said:

Believe me almost every li requirement group would ve want at least 1 newbie in team.

Yeah, those squads will totally start teaching new players and not just use them as an additional lootbag while 9-manning the raids 😉 

I mean, obviously that can't be said about everyone (and I'm not saying you'd be doing it, but hopefully you understand why this is more of an incentive to "9-man raids" than it is to "sit down" with new players to actually teach them?), but there are already training/no-req squads that are set on actually teaching newer players without the possibility to simply use new accounts in order to get better rewards, while essencially... still not teaching anyone. I just don't think it's as practical as it might sound -the players would still need to actually want to teach new ones, instead of being strictly driven by additional loot.

Edited April 2, 2022 by Sobx.1758

[Zychuu.7294]

 

 

13 hours ago, Jajo.1428 said:

ROFL way to spectacularly and entirely miss the point 😄

 

Yeeaaah... I won't reply to every post doing this as there is far too many of them, but this thread very quickly fallen apart to usual "is KP elitist gatekeeping or reasonable thing to do?" discussion instead of my intention of discussing people missusing raid LI due to lack of proper KP for other kinds of content.

 

10 hours ago, chronometria.3708 said:

Raid kill proofs are an obstacle to arenanets vision of strikes being popular content. Someone can do lots of strikes and yet will constantly be blocked from groups due to demands of raid accomplishment.

 

 

Yeeaaah. That's the thing. You can't really efficiently LFG when people (out of neccessity/lack of better option) gate with irrelevant raid KP instead.

[Astralporing.1957]

10 hours ago, chronometria.3708 said:

Raid kill proofs are an obstacle to arenanets vision of strikes being popular content. Someone can do lots of strikes and yet will constantly be blocked from groups due to demands of raid accomplishment.

It would be like needing raid proofs to do fractals.

I have to disagree. No, Raid proofs are not an obstacle to Anet's vision of strikes being popular content. They are merely one of the symptoms of one of the real reasons why strikes remain unpopular. That specific reason being content difficulty.

As long as the content remains at a difficulty that requires players to play at aboveaverage level, players interested in that content will be pushed into filtering out their group members - be it through KPs, or through other means. And as long as the content remains at such difficulty, the players that by themselves are at below the required skill level, and (for one of multitide of reasons) cannot or do not want to improve will either try to get carried (which will push the first group of players into even more stringent filtering), or will give up on the content (which will drop its popularity).

There's just no way around any of those. Blaming the KPs or blaming the people asking for KPs is just missing the forest for the trees.

[mythical.6315]

At least as far as strikes go, it’s more about saving time and having a smooth run rather than them being difficult. Whispers probably being the one exception. All of the others are very much doable by what you call “average” players. The Canthan ones most definitely due to no timer.