Stealth (PvP and WvW)

[Malus.2184]

Being able to Stealth back to back and at will is insanely good in small-scale stuff and  relatively useless in large-scale fights. 

Stealth can never ever be balanced by going at abilities on individual Professions and Specs since at the end of the day they would still be able to chain them together when in mattered for them. I wrote about this when I previously posted about hypothetical and practical balance.

ANet does far too much balance after what something would do hypothetically instead of what it does effectively.

An example of this would be Stealth. Adjusting indivual CD and traits only affects the hypothetical effect, it does nothing to change the effective effect. The only thing that would be able to make a real dent in practical balance was if Stealth had a grace-period before another Stealth effect could affect the player. ANet could then work backwards from indidual Stealth abilities and such and decide if the grace-period for the particular Stealth effect should be smaller.

Right now, fighting against an opponent in a small-scale fight who can pretty much turn invisible at will while they wait for their burst attack skills to be of CD since they have relatively small CDs is extremely frustrating.

If they have 6 seconds left on the cooldown for a burst skill, they can stealth for 3 seconds, and then stealth for another 3 seconds instead of getting attaacked and now they have it back and will have the advantagous position since they attack from being invisible and there will be a mental lag before the defender can react. Meanwhile, you can do nothing except wait for the burst that you know will come.

This is neither fun nor engaging gameplay for the ones on the recieving end. I've no doubt that it is for the person doing it though.

If there was a grace-period on being able to reenter Stealth the usage of it would be a lot more tactical instead of the fire-forget-and easily win or flee it is now. Because that's the other side of the coin. If you do manage to get them in a bad spot, they can just reenter Stealth, flee, and then come back as you've most likely have had to spend your entire aresenal to get them there.

There's really no need to be all that tactical in how to use Stealth besides when to use it. Right now, all that's needed to make Stealth work is the bare minimum of tactical ability.

My suggestion to start from would be that this grace-periid is the duration of the Stealth effect +50% in it's 3-sec or less and +100% if it's more. This would be the nominal duration of the effect instead of the practical one used.

Edited April 4, 2022 by Malus.2184

[Sahne.6950]

33 minutes ago, Malus.2184 said:

is insanely good in small-scale stuff and  relatively useless in large-scale fights. 

useless in large-scale fights..... That says alot about your experience in WvW buddy 😛 no further comment on that.

33 minutes ago, Malus.2184 said:

If they have 6 seconds left on the cooldown for a burst skill, they can stealth for 3 seconds, and then stealth for another 3 seconds instead of getting attaacked and now they have it back

your Cooldowns tick aswell....

 

33 minutes ago, Malus.2184 said:

Meanwhile, you can do nothing except wait for the burst that you know will come.

And thats where most lowerskilled players are SOOOOOOO Wrong. The player is just invisible... he is not invincible. You can pretty much tell where the other person will be from experience. For example when fighting a thief and he goes stealth. You should always do a 180 and just keep walking away! Thief has to follow you in order to backstab you. Where is he going to be? RIGHT! he is going to be behind you. He has wasted a dodgeroll to close the gap to you or will engage with pistol3 (which is very obvious and easy to dodge) Just use a untargeted skill at best a cc skill behind you and watch him come out of stealth with 50% hp or being stunned. Or simply use Aoe skills under you and turn like a madman. No thief on this planet will hit a backstab when you keep on spinning at lightningspeed. Instead he will give you a wetnoodle stab from the front and cant stealth for 3 seconds... Also if you have headset you can hear players even when they are invisible. There is alot of ways to counter stealth. (Not saying stealth is balanced, but you make it look like stealthing=Godmode)

 

33 minutes ago, Malus.2184 said:

If there was a grace-period on being able to reenter Stealth

Well we have that..... If you hit someone out of stealth you cant stealth anymore. If he keeps on stealthing he keeps on not doing any damage to you.

 

 

 

Conclusion: If you want to change stealth you have to balance alot of builds/Professions aswell, because they are balanced around stealth. Instead you should start working on being mentally ontop of you opponent! Remember he is just invisible, not invincible. I cant count the times i have killed thiefs altho they are in stealth, because its soo predictable when and where they are going to appear. most of the time between 3-4 seconds after the stealth and right behind you. The Stealth game is all about knowing your enemys build and expecting the burst. If you nail that you will notice that stealth is not as overpowered as you make it look like.

The only thing that is abusive imo is that you can use stealth to disengage at any given moment without your opponent noticing that you are running away. people will only notice that the thief ran away when they are OOC, But your way of "fixing" stealth doesnt really adress this.

Edited April 4, 2022 by Sahne.6950

[Malus.2184]

14 minutes ago, Sahne.6950 said:

useless in large-scale fights..... That says alot about your experience in WvW buddy 😛 no further comment on that.

That's the reason the word 'relatively' is used. You're the one who says that I said they were useless in order to have an argument. Aside from group Stealths to close the distance and the Mesmer Wall to reposition I almost never see individual Stealth Skills used other  than for duelist, roaming, and havoc.

17 minutes ago, Sahne.6950 said:

your Cooldowns tick aswell....

They do, that's accurate, and also quite useless since the one Stealthing has the advantage and can unload their burst on you without you being able to react. And about reaxtion time, it increases with age and iirc peaks around  the age of 18. This si the reason e-sports, where reaction time makes the difference, is dominated by teams of younger players who often retire around the age of 22 because they've become too old to keep up.

20 minutes ago, Sahne.6950 said:

And thats where most lowerskilled players are SOOOOOOO Wrong. The player is just invisible... he is not invincible. You can pretty much tell where the other person will be from experience. For example when fighting a thief and he goes stealth. You should always do a 180 and just keep walking away! Where is he going to be? RIGHT! he is going to be behind you. Just use a untargeted skill at best a cc skill behind you and watch him come out of stealth with 50% hp or being stunned. Or simply use Aoe skills under you and turn like a madman. No thief on this planet will hit a backstab when you keep on spinning at lightningspeed. Instead he will give you a wetnoodle stab from the front and cant stealth for 3 seconds... Also if you have headset you can hear players even when they are invisible. There is alot of ways to counter stealth. (Not saying stealth is balanced, but you make it look like stealthing=Godmode)

Nope, I never even expressed that it made you invincible, you were the one who said I did and while that makes to technically correct u der the terms you stated it makes you contectually wrong. All the oerson stealthing has to do is to walk out of range while they wait. This is the reason I mentioned that they needed just a minimum of tactical ability in order to use Stealth. Your explanation assumes that the Stealthed player just stands there doing nothing at all. I find it telling that you need to invent a straw person and use their hypothetical behaviour as an example instead of how they would act in a practical situation.

AA chains also resets unless they have atarget and ranged attacks only works if the person are in the line from which they originate. Both things you conveniently "forget." And the Stealthed player can be anywhere, that's the point. In a game of tactics you do what the oppenent would never expect. So, while attackingfrom the back would be numerically advantageous for a Thief traited for it, the best option would be to do something else. And there are other Professions and Specs aside from Thief that uses Stealth without attacking in the back being the best option.

- Ranger with long and Smokescale pet has a large amount of Stealth abilities if they forego traps. And if they're roaming traps are of little value unless they plan to demolish zergs.

- Daredevil, has no need to attack from the back, they can also attack from the front or the sides.

- Deadeye, attacks you from range and uses stealth constantly to get away from you once you close the gap.

- Specter, see Deadeye.

32 minutes ago, Sahne.6950 said:

Well we have that..... If you hit someone out of stealth you cant stealth anymore. If he keeps on stealthing he keeps on not doing any damage to you.

Again, technically correct and contextually wrong. Stealth is most often used to set up attacks and while you take no damage you're about to take a lot from the Stealthed player.

34 minutes ago, Sahne.6950 said:

Conclusion: If you want to change stealth you have to balance alot of builds/Professions aswell, because they are balanced around stealth. Instead you should start working on being mentally ontop of you opponent! Remember he is just invisible, not invincible. I cant count the times i have killed thiefs altho they are in stealth, because its soo predictable when and where they are going to appear. most of the time between 3-4 seconds after the stealth and right behind you. The Stealth game is all about knowing your enemys build and expecting the burst. If you nail that you will notice that stealth is not as overpowered as you make it look like.

That says more about the quality of the Thieves you'vebeen up against than it does about your quality as a player. Once you regularly encounter players who're no longer predictable you're going to have a really rough time.

And the above are the ones who are being cited as a problem when it comes to high brackets/match ups.

[DanAlcedo.3281]

Useless on large scale fight? What? 

Since day one zergs used Stealth to gain an advantage. 

Be it Veil from mesmer or smoke fields from Scrapper. 

 

[Bazsi.2734]

It's amazing that after 9 years of nonstop complaining about the very design of stealth, people are still trying to change the very basics of it. A-net introduced traits, mechanics, and an entire elite specialisation(deadeye) that's entirely dependent on stealth being what it currently is.
So after a-net doubled and tripled down on their stealth design, why bother?

Also why would people want to engage a stealth heavy build in a small-scale skirmish? Just change the setting to somewhere where they are useless, and forget they exist. Would you try to damage-trade with a ranger that's standing atop of a tower? Would you run at the necromancer that's spamming marks&wells at its feet? Or is the urge to kill everything that has a red nametag too strong?
Pick fights you can win. Back out of those you cannot. Or... you can also bang your head against a wall, it's up to you.
 

1 hour ago, Malus.2184 said:

My suggestion to start from would be that this grace-periid is the duration of the Stealth effect +50% in it's 3-sec or less and +100% if it's more. This would be the nominal duration of the effect instead of the practical one used.

Man this feels so 2018 again. I wish we could go back. No pandemic, no looming economic collapse, just dumb posts about stealth.

Edited April 4, 2022 by Bazsi.2734

[Malus.2184]

3 minutes ago, DanAlcedo.3281 said:

Useless on large scale fight? What? 

Since day one zergs used Stealth to gain an advantage. 

Be it Veil from mesmer or smoke fields from Scrapper. 

 

 

7 minutes ago, Malus.2184 said:

That's the reason the word 'relatively' is used. You're the one who says that I said they were useless in order to have an argument. Aside from group Stealths to close the distance and the Mesmer Wall to reposition I almost never see individual Stealth Skills used other  than for duelist, roaming, and havoc.

 

[Malus.2184]

1 minute ago, Bazsi.2734 said:

It's amazing that after 9 years of nonstop complaining about the very design of stealth, people are still trying to change the very basics of it. A-net introduced traits, mechanics, and an entire elite specialisation(deadeye) that's entirely dependent on stealth being what it currently is.
So after a-net doubled and tripled down on their stealth design, why bother?

Yup, because ANet has never made changes based oin the hypothetical effect of something without considering the practical effect. I mean, just look at the Epichange and the initial change to Catalyst.

3 minutes ago, Bazsi.2734 said:

Also why would people want to engage a stealth heavy build in a small-scale skirmish? Just change the setting to somewhere where they are useless, and forget they exist. Would you try to damage-trade with a ranger that's standing atop of a tower? Would you run at the necromancer that's spamming marks&wells at its feet? Or is the urge to kill everything that has a red nametag too strong?
Pick fights you can win. Back out of ones you cannot. Or... you can also bang your head against a wall, it's up to you.

Yes, because famously you can always pick your fights to be to your advantage only. Even in a barren field far away from any ort of assistance there are always things that can help engate the advantages of others.  Yet, fopr some reason they're unable to do the same?

Do you even do a mental walkthroughs of your arguments before you state them? 

8 minutes ago, Bazsi.2734 said:

Man this feels so 2018 again. I wish we could go back. No pandemic, no looming economic collapse, just dumb posts about stealth.

I've found suggestions from 2013. None of them have approached the subject from this angl, I'm sure they exist though. And how would it ruin Stealth gameplay if there was a grace-period that had to pass before you could reenter Stealth again?

[Bazsi.2734]

2 minutes ago, Malus.2184 said:

I've found suggestions from 2013. None of them have approached the subject from this angl, I'm sure they exist though. And how would it ruin Stealth gameplay if there was a grace-period that had to pass before you could reenter Stealth again?

https://wiki.guildwars2.com/wiki/Revealed

[Malus.2184]

6 minutes ago, Bazsi.2734 said:

https://wiki.guildwars2.com/wiki/Revealed

Again, technically correct.

This is the relevant portion of the entry.

Quote

 

Revealed is an effect applied when stealth is broken by a player either striking a target with power damage or exiting a Shadow Refuge circle prematurely. Various skills, listed below, apply revealed on enemy players in WvW and PvP.

When applied as a result of breaking stealth, the effect lasts 3 seconds in PvE and WvW and 4 seconds in Structured PvP. An "Immune" message pops up if an attempt to stealth is made during that time. This effect prevents people from repeatedly attacking and then using stealth before the enemy can respond. When this effect is applied to a target that is in stealth, it will end the effect, rendering the target visible immediately.

Allowing stealth to end normally will not apply the Revealed effect.

 

Reading that I see multiple ways to get around Revealed

1. Apply Condi damage.

2. Never break Stealth, which is far from difficult since since Stealth seldom lasts long. And letting it pass while attacking at the exact moment is doanle unlesss you have heavy ping.

The hypothetical is that it prevent people from Stealth->attacking all the time. Practically it does no such thing as the asy way to circumvent this, untill you can plink them down, is to only do big attacks with a time between them and otherwise kite them.

You're going by this hypothetically curbing the behaviour. Practically it can easily be circumvented. 

If a Reveal effect was placed on the player depending on the nominal duration of the Stealth, instead of an arbitrary one decided by the game mode that's easily circumventable, then it would make a practical difference as the ways to circumvent getting the Revealed effect would be gone.

Basically, you get affected by Revealed by a non-guard in WvW, the reason is you. In a sPvP match the effect means more as organised teams are often on some sort of VC and can call for backup and they're forced to stay at one node due to how the scoring work. In WvW you seldom have a team or VC when roaming, and the score nodes themselves are fire-and-forget. There's no reason to stay other than to gank.

[Bazsi.2734]

25 minutes ago, Malus.2184 said:

Again, technically correct.

Do I need to be correct in any other way?

Here is a point so I don't just make fun of you: Deadeye. The spec cannot exist in an actual fight for long, so to get any benefit from having the malice mechanic, it needs to stack and spend it as fast as possible. Disrupting its flow with longer revealed effects basicly removes the burst window. Your suggestion would solve nothing(as permastealth trolling/ganking will be a thing forever), but would absolutely ruin an e-spec.

Edited April 4, 2022 by Bazsi.2734

[Ashgar.3024]

"The Thief just didn't just stand there and died like i wanted him to, nerf ! I'm the protagonist in my own mind as my mom always told me i was special and deserved the best so please take everything that make me feel otherwise away".

 

Edit : If you're "confused" by this its probably because it hit close to home. 😉

Edited April 4, 2022 by Ashgar.3024

[Kozumi.5816]

8 hours ago, Bazsi.2734 said:

It's amazing that after 9 years of nonstop complaining about the very design of stealth, people are still trying to change the very basics of it. A-net introduced traits, mechanics, and an entire elite specialisation(deadeye) that's entirely dependent on stealth being what it currently is.

They should all be nerfed to unviable, like turret eng. Keep that crap out of pvp, can stay for pve rp.

[Azure The Heartless.3261]

Ooh we're back on the "Thief stealths too much, please make them visible, I have no suggestions for replacing the mitigation they lose from my request" train again?

Alright, alright. 

 

23 minutes ago, Kozumi.5816 said:

They should all be nerfed to unviable, like turret eng. Keep that crap out of pvp, can stay for pve rp.

Turret...Engie....?

You mean Mechanist?

Edited April 4, 2022 by Azure The Heartless.3261

[Burial.1958]

And the next thread about stealth. You got Watchtower, you got guards at the flag who can reveal. You got skills which can reveal and you got even traps and a target Painter in WvWvW. No other class has such a hard counter in a form of a item which you can buy at the spawn and kills of both defensive & offensive ability. Not other class has that.

Edited April 4, 2022 by Grebcol.5984

[Bazsi.2734]

9 minutes ago, Grebcol.5984 said:

And the next thread about stealth. You got Watchtower, you got guards at the flag who can reveal. You got skills which can reveal and you got even traps and a target Painter in WvWvW. No other class has such a hard counter in a form of a item which you can buy at the spawn and kills of both defensive & offensive ability. Not other class has that.

Yeah it's kind of like if there were traps to drain&disable adrenaline gain for 30+ seconds, towers would pulse a debuff that takes away all adrenaline every 3 second, other players had skills/traits applying the same effect for 6-10 seconds, and people would still cry about a meme berserker oneshotting them, demanding that a-net finally nerf the adrenaline burst mechanic to make this game playable again.
I mean come on, we're used to the amount of damage a warrior deals, and then suddenly he deals more. It's toxic, it's not fun to fight against, weren't we supposed to balance this game years ago blablabla... this is how ridiculous "nerf stealth" threads are to those of us who multiclass and learnt to deal with it.
 

[Sahne.6950]

10 hours ago, Bazsi.2734 said:

Yeah it's kind of like if there were traps to drain&disable adrenaline gain for 30+ seconds, towers would pulse a debuff that takes away all adrenaline every 3 second, other players had skills/traits applying the same effect for 6-10 seconds, and people would still cry about a meme berserker oneshotting them, demanding that a-net finally nerf the adrenaline burst mechanic to make this game playable again.
I mean come on, we're used to the amount of damage a warrior deals, and then suddenly he deals more. It's toxic, it's not fun to fight against, weren't we supposed to balance this game years ago blablabla... this is how ridiculous "nerf stealth" threads are to those of us who multiclass and learnt to deal with it.
 

Thank god someone with a brain 😄 10/10 would rate "Thanks" again.

idk maybe its just me but almost all the classes that use stealth have a pretty obvious tell when they are going to do it, and what they are going to do with it. Ranger: doesnt have as much access to stealth/ has troubles to chain the stealths, so the window where you have to be cautious is pretty slim.  TrapperRanger: HEYYY I PLACED THE TRAP RIGHT HERE!!!! EXACTLY HERE!!!! PLEASE WALK INTO IT!!!!      Mesmer: BWIUE BIUP BIUP *Phantasms flying at you*   DH: "HEY LOOK I PLACED MY TRAP RIGHT HERE!   Teef: doggo has to do make stabby in backy or makes noodle dmg...*sneaks behind opponents butt* i hope they dont fart and kill me in onehit... I advise anyone having trouble with d/p teef to just play it and see whats going on, because in reality.. you guys got outskilled... teef is not blatantly overpowered.... it is just really strong in the hands of a skilled player. Deadeye:  f1 BWIUUU *Random Crosshair apearing over your character"  1 * BWIUUU(Loudest shot in any game that i have ever played).....Oh fk why do i get visible when i press my 1 altho i am hitting nothing? :0 The only thing that was pretty annoying was Nadescrapper... but that was annoying cuz it could almost oneshot you from stealth, and not because it can reenter stealth all the time. It just has the sneakgyro once if i remember correct.

I think you get my view on stealth.^_^

stealth is really just op to disengage or to hide in a keep.

Edited April 5, 2022 by Sahne.6950

[Sahne.6950]

19 hours ago, Malus.2184 said:

And about reaxtion time, it increases with age and iirc peaks around  the age of 18. This si the reason e-sports, where reaction time makes the difference, is dominated by teams of younger players who often retire around the age of 22 because they've become too old to keep up.

gotta love the: " I am aging like a glass of milk on a hot summerday, so they have to nerf stealth so i can keep up" - approach.

idk man... we have guildies that are over 40 and they absolutly slap in spvp and WvW. I am close to 30 and i dont feel old and sluggish:D

since the one Stealthing has the advantage and can unload their burst on you without you being able to react.

"without you being able to react".... are you falling asleep as soon as the other people go stealth or what? 😄

You know that the big gamechanger is... To.... Not be the one that reacts... You have to be the acting part. Force them to react to you. For example lay AoE´s under you when they go stealth, so they cant simply walk up to you and burst. Use a Block skill when you think they are going to open, so you force them to prolong stealth or waste their opening. Things like that are the big gamechanger. Force them to do a certain thing, so they become more predictable. If you just stand there and wait for them to open on you, you are a easy target. Simply run away from anyone that used stealth and force them to follow you. YOU have to dictate the engagement and not the other way around. Just reacting to what the enemy does is not very POGgers in any game. That is literally what seperates good from bad players imo. Some act, and some react. hope that makes sense:D

Edited April 5, 2022 by Sahne.6950

[Trevor Boyer.6524]

22 hours ago, Malus.2184 said:

If there was a grace-period on being able to reenter Stealth the usage of it would be a lot more tactical instead of the fire-forget-and easily win or flee it is now.

It already exists. It's called "revealed".

Save your big CCs for when the Thief is revealed.

There are also a lot of skills & traits that create elongated reveal.

Edited April 5, 2022 by Trevor Boyer.6524

[Malus.2184]

I find it interesting how people automatically think that stealth = Thief. While Thieves and their Elite Specs use Stealth the most there are other builds thay can make excessively use of Stealth. The Ranger comes to mind. This is a suggestion about Stealth as a mechanic rather than the Specs who use it.

13 hours ago, Grebcol.5984 said:

And the next thread about stealth. You got Watchtower, you got guards at the flag who can reveal. You got skills which can reveal and you got even traps and a target Painter in WvWvW. No other class has such a hard counter in a form of a item which you can buy at the spawn and kills of both defensive & offensive ability. Not other class has that.

Watchtower = stationary, you need to lure the Stealth user there.

Guards at flags = stationary and you need to have it for it to work. I find this suggestion since it's completely useless since if you're jumped by a stealth user while taking the flaf it exerbates the issue since now you're fighting 2v1..

Target Painter Trap = https://wiki.guildwars2.com/wiki/Target_Painter_Trap, requires that you have enough badges in order to keep stocked. While it's unlikely that you're lacking currency to buy one it can happen.

The flipside of this is if there's a Grace-period to using Stealth then the Target Painter effect could be changed to have no effect on Stealth at all, which would be fair.

[Sahne.6950]

1 minute ago, Malus.2184 said:

I find it interesting how people automatically think that stealth = Thief. While Thieves and their Elite Specs use Stealth the most there are other builds thay can make excessively use of Stealth. The Ranger comes to mind. This is a suggestion about Stealth as a mechanic rather than the Specs who use it.

Watchtower = stationary, you need to lure the Stealth user there.

Guards at flags = stationary and you need to have it for it to work. I find this suggestion since it's completely useless since if you're jumped by a stealth user while taking the flaf it exerbates the issue since now you're fighting 2v1..

Target Painter Trap = https://wiki.guildwars2.com/wiki/Target_Painter_Trap, requires that you have enough badges in order to keep stocked. While it's unlikely that you're lacking currency to buy one it can happen.

The flipside of this is if there's a Grace-period to using Stealth then the Target Painter effect could be changed to have no effect on Stealth at all, which would be fair.

I find it interesting how i named every class that has possible access to stealth yet you completly ignore it and tell us that we only talking about thief. 😃

 

What people try to tell you with the watchtower and guards is... if you have troubles with a certain player abusing its stealth... why not chill near a watchtower or sentry. There is ways to counter stealth, but you are just like : hurrdurr im getting old! pls nerf that kitten

Edited April 5, 2022 by Sahne.6950

[Malus.2184]

1 minute ago, Sahne.6950 said:

I find it interesting how i named every class that has possible access to stealth yet you completly ignore it and tell us that we only talking about thief. 😃

"I'm an exception therefore your argument is invalid." Are you an exception? Yes. Do the posters in this thread in average ascribe to this being about Thieves? Yes. Your posts are an outlier that helps to create the average.

[Sahne.6950]

Just now, Malus.2184 said:

"I'm an exception therefore your argument is invalid." Are you an exception? Yes. Do the posters in this thread in average ascribe to this being about Thieves? Yes. Your posts are an outlier that helps to create the average.

bro what the duck is going on with you. xD You completly ignore every aspect of people talking to you and are just like: meh stealth op! watchtower is stationary!!! i cant carry it in my pockt! so they have to nerf stealth. You dont even give any meaningfull ideas for compensation for the affected professions by your glorious idea. What you are suggesting is a straight up nerf without any compensation. people are telling you that but you completly ignore whats happening here... i guess its a lost cause.

[Malus.2184]

3 minutes ago, Sahne.6950 said:

bro what the duck is going on with you. xD You completly ignore every aspect of people talking to you and are just like: meh stealth op! watchtower is stationary!!! i cant carry it in my pockt! so they have to nerf stealth. You dont even give any meaningfull ideas for compensation for the affected professions by your glorious idea. What you are suggesting is a straight up nerf without any compensation. people are telling you that but you completly ignore whats happening here... i guess its a lost cause.

Yes I can, as I find your argument rhetorically dishonest and would rather expose the dishonesty of it than giving it validity by arguing against in away that takes it serious.

The las thing you said is an argument. How would you compensante Stealth under a Grace-period since you implicitly in that counter- argument means that Stealth would be unviable.

Edited April 5, 2022 by Malus.2184

[Sahne.6950]

2 minutes ago, Malus.2184 said:

Yes I can, as I find your argument rhetoorically dishonest and would rahter expose the dishonesty of it than giving it validity by arguing against in away that takes it serious.

what.... okey then lets take it serious:

my argument against your idea is that it would be a HUUUUGE nerf to alot of builds and would completly destroy builds like Deadeye. Do you have any form of compensation? or do you just want to straight up kill those builds?

Edited April 5, 2022 by Sahne.6950

[anjo.6143]

23 hours ago, Malus.2184 said:

Being able to Stealth back to back and at will is insanely good in small-scale stuff and  relatively useless in large-scale fights. 

Stealth can never ever be balanced by going at abilities on individual Professions and Specs since at the end of the day they would still be able to chain them together when in mattered for them. I wrote about this when I previously posted about hypothetical and practical balance.

ANet does far too much balance after what something would do hypothetically instead of what it does effectively.

An example of this would be Stealth. Adjusting indivual CD and traits only affects the hypothetical effect, it does nothing to change the effective effect. The only thing that would be able to make a real dent in practical balance was if Stealth had a grace-period before another Stealth effect could affect the player. ANet could then work backwards from indidual Stealth abilities and such and decide if the grace-period for the particular Stealth effect should be smaller.

Right now, fighting against an opponent in a small-scale fight who can pretty much turn invisible at will while they wait for their burst attack skills to be of CD since they have relatively small CDs is extremely frustrating.

If they have 6 seconds left on the cooldown for a burst skill, they can stealth for 3 seconds, and then stealth for another 3 seconds instead of getting attaacked and now they have it back and will have the advantagous position since they attack from being invisible and there will be a mental lag before the defender can react. Meanwhile, you can do nothing except wait for the burst that you know will come.

This is neither fun nor engaging gameplay for the ones on the recieving end. I've no doubt that it is for the person doing it though.

If there was a grace-period on being able to reenter Stealth the usage of it would be a lot more tactical instead of the fire-forget-and easily win or flee it is now. Because that's the other side of the coin. If you do manage to get them in a bad spot, they can just reenter Stealth, flee, and then come back as you've most likely have had to spend your entire aresenal to get them there.

There's really no need to be all that tactical in how to use Stealth besides when to use it. Right now, all that's needed to make Stealth work is the bare minimum of tactical ability.

My suggestion to start from would be that this grace-periid is the duration of the Stealth effect +50% in it's 3-sec or less and +100% if it's more. This would be the nominal duration of the effect instead of the practical one used.

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