Alternative path for PVE Legendary Armor

[A Hamster.2580]

For those that do not WvW or PvP, the only way to get legendary armor is to either start raiding or buy raids from the many sellers advertising in the Raids LFG. Since raid selling seems to be allowed, I believe the following proposal would be more fair for both raiders and nonraiders (at the expense of the raid sellers).

 

I propose there to be an alternate way to unlock the the ability to craft legendary armor without having to get into raids at all. I would guess this new achievement collection would involve performing certain feats in the HoT maps. Legendary Insights would still be required to craft the legendary armor, however they should be tradable. Raiders with no interest in crafting legendary armor (or already have all three sets of legendary armor) can sell these insights on the trading post for nonraiders to buy. This should increase the pitiful weekly gold income for raiders while at the same time be a cheaper way for nonraiders to acquire legendary armor without having to go through raid sellers. Nonraiders can still choose to start raiding if they prefer to earn the Legendary Insights directly or to unlock the ability to craft legendary armor via raiding.

 

This should also clean up the Raid LFG a bit from all the raid selling listings, provide more of a gold sink from making insights tradable due to the 15% taxes, free up inventory space for raiders that have stacks of legendary insights, provide a new long term goal for a large number of nonraiders. I think the only people that would argue against this is raid sellers. Here are some potential cons that I thought about:

 

Argument #1: It would make legendary armor "less prestigious"

My counter argument: People can already technically buy gems, convert gem to gold, then buy raids from raid sellers. They can also buy raid titles. I do not see the logic in gate keeping pve legendary armor from nonraiders due to these facts.

 

Argument #2: It would kill the raiding scene since less people try out raiding to get their legendary armor.

My counter argument: The less people that raid, the more valuable these legendary insights will be. This might even get some nonraiders to consider raiding if it gets to a certain point.

 

Before you think I made this proposal because raiding is too hard for me:

I have been raiding for more than 2 years, have over 1k legendary insights sitting in my bank because I don't care for legendary armor, have all raid titles, can play all roles in raids, lead a few raid training runs

 

Please let me know your thoughts on this or if there is something I am just not seeing.

[mindcircus.1506]

What would be the difference between raiders selling carries and LI on the TP?

I mean other than the fact you personally would get to cash in.
 

[A Hamster.2580]

3 minutes ago, mindcircus.1506 said:

What would be the difference between raiders selling carries and LI on the TP?

I mean other than the fact you personally would get to cash in.
 

It would make it cheaper for nonraiders to get legendary armor (unless the raid sellers can undercut this new method, but this would still be good for nonraiders). It would make raiding more profitable for the majority of raiders. It would reduce the probability of getting scammed to 0. You also cannot ignore the fact that buying raid clears from a third party involves a nonzero probability of getting scammed, and Anet already made it clear they would not intervene in deals like these if they go wrong.

[mindcircus.1506]

3 minutes ago, A Hamster.2580 said:

It would make it cheaper for nonraiders to get legendary armor (unless the raid sellers can undercut this new method, but this would still be good for nonraiders). It would make raiding more profitable for the majority of raiders. It would reduce the probability of getting scammed to 0. You also cannot ignore the fact that buying raid clears from a third party involves a nonzero probability of getting scammed, and Anet already made it clear they would not intervene in deals like these if they go wrong.

The RMT concern has never been one for the buyers.
The scam concern has always been solely that of the sellers who run the risk of being paid in dirty gold.
The sellers don't scam because the damage to their reputation would destroy their revenue.

All you are doing here is expressing a desire for more rewards from your raids and dressing it up as a "easy legendary armour" for people who don't raid.
In actuality the current situation and your proposal have identical outcomes to the buyer.
They are still paying for the carry.

[A Hamster.2580]

 

10 minutes ago, mindcircus.1506 said:

The RMT concern has never been one for the buyers.
The scam concern has always been solely that of the sellers who run the risk of being paid in dirty gold.
The sellers don't scam because the damage to their reputation would destroy their revenue.

 

I won't address your first point as that was not I was talking about. I never mentioned anything about RMT. I still stand by the fact that there is a nonzero probability of getting scammed when buying raid clears from raid sellers as opposed to buying LI directly from the TP.

 

10 minutes ago, mindcircus.1506 said:

In actuality the current situation and your proposal have identical outcomes to the buyer.

 

Uh no. It's late for me so I will check back tomorrow to respond.

[Peterson.5172]

1 hour ago, mindcircus.1506 said:

I mean other than the fact you personally would get to cash in.

let him cash in, i will buy

[HnRkLnXqZ.1870]

The majority of the raid-community are NOT greedy or toxic jerks. Those are just the most vocal ones with the highest public activity, which leads to the false assumption. Butchering the entire game-mode for a few jerks being 'clever' would be a little unfair.

Let us take a look at the raid-selling first. 

Quote

Players may use the LFG Tool only for the formation of a group.

Players may use the tool to sell a spot in a group (because that can be part of the group formation process) but they may not use it for the sale or trading of items, nor for any other purpose. Please see our article on Buying and Selling "Runs" for more information. 

It is officially legal. Why? I do not know. This was one of the weirdest legal decisions they have ever made and left many of us ponder until today. There was no explanation or anything at all, just the official clarification that they are fine with the system. What I can say from a long-term-perspective: This 'rule' existed long before Raids were introduced into the game. It is not a raid-problem, although it is currently mostly used for raids and raid-like content. Interpreting too much malicious intend into this decision does not help, it was probably a 5 minute coffee-break decision of the compliance department. It is written in stone, 100 % legal. 

Note: I do not defend this system. They clog the LFG with their adverts and create a false impression about the situation of the instanced-content grouping. Together with the other jerks. You open LFG and think you are not welcome as a new player. That is not what the LFG was designed for :S. 

11 hours ago, A Hamster.2580 said:

Argument #1: It would make legendary armor "less prestigious"

My counter argument: People can already technically buy gems, convert gem to gold, then buy raids from raid sellers. They can also buy raid titles. I do not see the logic in gate keeping pve legendary armor from nonraiders due to these facts.

A full legendary armor requires 150 LI. Depending on the 'vendors' you end up with ~ 12k gold.
999 gold = 5,140 gems
12,000 gold = 61,742 gems

8,000 gems = 100 €
61,742 gems = 772 €

And that is only the money. You still need to log in and participate somehow in the encounters. 
Time for another minipoll:
 Looking at these prices and your financial situation (RL), would this be an option for you?

🤣 (laugh) = YES 
 (sad) = Possible in theory, but I not an option for me right now.
😕 (confused) = NO

Please respond with one of these reactions to my post. Thank you!

Looking at my financial situation and the people I usually play with, we would not even consider this, even if we won the lottery. I'd rather donate the money before wasting it like that. 

11 hours ago, A Hamster.2580 said:

Argument #2: It would kill the raiding scene since less people try out raiding to get their legendary armor.

My counter argument: The less people that raid, the more valuable these legendary insights will be. This might even get some nonraiders to consider raiding if it gets to a certain point.

Raiders play raids for the ultimate challenge. Legendary Raid armor is shiny just for that reason. Look what I have achieved? Some people 🙄 seem to take this a bit more seriously. The sellers and the toxic ones are loud and nosiy, but they only make a small fraction of the player-base. 

We cannot predict the price of LI. As with all game-modes, we also have multi-account users in raids. So we have a ton of LI in the game right now. What would happen if we put all of them onto TP? We do not know. Price can drop below 10g or even further. And there is still the problem with the barons. 

In addition, you would remove one of the 🙄 gating-systems, #qualityassurance. As much as I dislike this system, I fear they would come up with an even worse method to categorize players and their worth.
-
I would also like to point out that it is not just raw LI that are required for legendary armors. The collections for the first set require active raiding, certain drops from different stages.  
-
We had a lot of suggestions over the years. I doubt they will ever drop Legendary Armor to casual gameplay. But I hope they may rework the stat-change system for exotic and ascended gear. In its current form, it is clunky and way too expensive for the small effect it grants.

Legendary is the ultimate convenience. But the gap between those two is imo too wide. When I have to explain stat-swapping to a new player, they look at me like I explain a jet-engine in a engineer-course. 

Edited April 10, 2022 by HnRkLnXqZ.1870
not worth the extra trouble

[Peterson.5172]

45 minutes ago, HnRkLnXqZ.1870 said:

A full legendary armor requires 150 LI. Depending on the 'vendors' you end up with ~ 12k gold.

999 gold = 5,140 gems
12,000 gold = 61,742 gems

8,000 gems = 100 €
61,742 gems = 772 €

last time i was quoted 6.5-8.5k MC (when MC is 1-1.1g)

waiting to see if anet does something with strike cm before i spend or not (all gold earned ingame)

Edited April 10, 2022 by Peterson.5172

[mungozen.2379]

Sure thing OP. Maybe offer the same treatment for WvW and PvP legendary armor?  
 

Why not legendary weapons too?  How about GoB and GoE?

I mean if people don’t want to actually play the game and just buy the best gear, may as well give players in all game modes a chance to cash in right?

Completely devaluing content because players are too lazy to play it, or because players aren’t satisfied with the gold they earn, does not seem like a good move. 

[Peterson.5172]

1 minute ago, Mungo Zen.9364 said:

Sure thing OP. Maybe offer the same treatment for WvW and PvP legendary armor?  
 

Why not legendary weapons too?  How about GoB and GoE?

I mean if people don’t want to actually play the game and just buy the best gear, may as well give players in all game modes a chance to cash in right?

Completely devaluing content because players are too lazy to play it, or because players aren’t satisfied with the gold they earn, does not seem like a good move. 

people who like & play raid = more profit for them

people who dont like raids = arent forced to play things they dont enjoy

people buy gems to gold = profit for anet

win win for everyone really

[Demirincar.4103]

6 hours ago, A Hamster.2580 said:

I would guess this new achievement collection would involve performing certain feats in the HoT maps. 

I support your proposal for more accessible PVE legendary armor except for this line. Locking stuff behind HoT maps may as well be making it unobtainable for anyone who isn't Lord Hizen. I wouldn't mind a huge crafting material sink like gen 1 legendaries or having options to get any accountbound items from any of the xpacs or even core Tyria.

[Xerxez.7361]

It actually makes sense that Legendary Armor is tied to Raids, PvP, & WvW. You don't need to change your build around in Open World because Open World.

[Peterson.5172]

12 minutes ago, Xerxez.7361 said:

It actually makes sense that Legendary Armor is tied to Raids, PvP, & WvW. You don't need to change your build around in Open World because Open World.

not true anymore because of DE

[Raknar.4735]

14 minutes ago, Xerxez.7361 said:

It actually makes sense that Legendary Armor is tied to Raids, PvP, & WvW. You don't need to change your build around in Open World because Open World.

Going with that faulty logic, PvP armour should be removed, as they don't use the stats at all ¯\_(ツ)_/¯

[Howluffu.7259]

Nope. Legendaries are not even mandatory for playing. Stay as they are.

You want the legendaries? work hard for them either by learning to play raids or by working hard IRL and buying those sellings(even tho everyone and their mother are welcome to raids even in pugs).

 

Same as the fricking Gift of Battle. You want them? Work for them even if you hate it(as IRL with work and money).

[Peterson.5172]

9 minutes ago, Howluffu.7259 said:

Nope. Legendaries are not even mandatory for playing. Stay as they are.

You want the legendaries? work hard for them either by learning to play raids or by working hard IRL and buying those sellings(even tho everyone and their mother are welcome to raids even in pugs).

 

Same as the fricking Gift of Battle. You want them? Work for them even if you hate it(as IRL with work and money).

thats why i play a game, to work hard in it

[Howluffu.7259]

1 minute ago, Peterson.5172 said:

thats why i play a game, to work hard in it

Not any game but an MMO. And every MMO that wasn't korean has this challenging achievements or feats that requires hard work.

 

I, personally, like to play games to stimulate me and have fun achievening challenges. I mean, cmon...when you were young did you played hide and seek expecting everyone to be behind you, rooted in place waiting for you to automatically win? Or did you enjoy challenging your skill to win the game at seeking everyone or hiding from the seeker till time runs out? Every game has challenges that stimulate you somehow with challenges.

Working hard is part of playing a game since forever so YES, thats why I play a game, to work hard on it.

[Peterson.5172]

1 minute ago, Howluffu.7259 said:

I, personally, like to play games to stimulate me and have fun achievening challenges.

that's fine, so if LI is tradable, you can play raids & have fun, while making some extra gold from selling LI.

while i, after my 40 hr week, dont want to spend 5-10 hrs a week learning/failing content i dont like. i barely even play more than 10hr a week nowadays

[Howluffu.7259]

1 minute ago, Peterson.5172 said:

that's fine, so if LI is tradable, you can play raids & have fun, while making some extra gold from selling LI.

while i, after my 40 hr week, dont want to spend 5-10 hrs a week learning/failing content i dont like. i barely even play more than 10hr a week nowadays

That's also fine. You don't have to😀

[Rinagal.9235]

53 minutes ago, Xerxez.7361 said:

It actually makes sense that Legendary Armor is tied to Raids, PvP, & WvW. You don't need to change your build around in Open World because Open World.

Oh, if you say so then it probably true, sure.

[Peterson.5172]

32 minutes ago, Howluffu.7259 said:

That's also fine. You don't have to😀

i know, i save up like 1.5-2k gold per month. just waiting for strike cms before i start buying raids. tradable LIs could save some gold thats all

edit: if any raid sellers see this, feel free to send my how much you charge

Edited April 10, 2022 by Peterson.5172

[yoni.7015]

Every game mode has a way to get legendary armor, no need to change anything. 

[A Hamster.2580]

Based on the reacts on my initial post, it seems support for this proposal is split about 50/50. I expected near universal support since this should be beneficial for >99% of the community (with the <1% being raid sellers). I tried reading through the many posts so far to see if there are any arguments that would change my mind on my proposal and have not really seen any. This one was interesting though:

 

Argument #3: TP Barons can hoard LI from the TP

Counter Argument: Barons hoarding LI => Raiding becomes more profitable => nonraiders might consider getting into raiding

There are also experienced raiders that might consider buying multiple alt accounts for more weekly raid clears and more LI => More raiding in general which is good for the raiding community

 

[Rinagal.9235]

2 minutes ago, yoni.7015 said:

Every game mode has a way to get legendary armor

False.

[Erise.5614]

I heavily agree with the sentiment. But it can not be designed around LI. LI didn't have a sink for too long now. LI isn't designed to be part of the TP economy.

Any alternative acquisition path would need to be long and expensive independent of LI to retain the value and status of legendary items as long term goals. It could be a currency tied to raids, CM strikes, wvw, pvp, all of them or something else. But it would have to be designed as tradable item from the beginning. You can't turn just any account bound item into a tradable one. And it would still need a considerable time investment on top of the gold investment.

E.g. after you started a collection, complete 500 events in an expansion. 

Legendary items mustn't be devalued. An alternative path towards one would be nice but it has to take equal effort. If the tasks are easier it must take longer and / or be more expensive to a proportional degree. 

Edited April 10, 2022 by Erise.5614