Treat Condi like CC, Nerf Baseline Damage

[Shao.7236]

On 4/13/2022 at 2:32 AM, Sahne.6950 said:

imo leave condis the way they are...  If anything Weakness needs to be looked at.

Not so sure about that, lately even with weakness I'm still getting deleted fairly easily against Warriors of all sort.

 

If anything weakness needs to be more consistent rather than RNG. Halving crit damage while having weakness would always be better than making it RNG since you're leaving it to precision/buffs rather than praying for luck.

[Enduronex.4865]

On 4/13/2022 at 12:45 PM, Azure The Heartless.3261 said:

 

*squint*

Say you got hit by bladesong sorrow then pressed buttons without saying you got hit by bladesong sorrow then pressed buttons challenge?

How is that doing 15k damage in 1 second?

The only thing I agree with in your statements above is

That. That is absolutely true.

But other than that nah. Condi builds can be annoying but not the point that they need a structural rework. 

 

I'm regularly pulling off 15K dmg in 1 second on Harbinger.  All you need to do is use Elixir of Ambition, enter Harbinger Shroud, and 5->4->2 your way to easy victory.  It's insane.  I was plat II with my holosmith in Season 30, and now I can't even get into Plat with my holosmith at all.  But I can easily get to high Plat I on my Harbinger, despite only playing it for a single day and not really even thinking about combo finishers, positioning, or even much about timing.  It's a button mash that demonstrates that the rating system, right now, at a baseline, is solely based on build.  It has nothing to do with skill until maybe mid Plat II on NA.  I can't speak to EU because I don't play on EU, but I imagine that there is also a threshold there between build and skill for ratings.

[Azure The Heartless.3261]

23 minutes ago, memausz.7264 said:

 

I'm regularly pulling off 15K dmg in 1 second on Harbinger.  All you need to do is use Elixir of Ambition, enter Harbinger Shroud, and 5->4->2 your way to easy victory.  It's insane.  

This is doing 15k in condi damage in one second?

[Arheundel.6451]

On 4/19/2022 at 10:44 PM, memausz.7264 said:

 

I'm regularly pulling off 15K dmg in 1 second on Harbinger.  All you need to do is use Elixir of Ambition, enter Harbinger Shroud, and 5->4->2 your way to easy victory.  It's insane.  I was plat II with my holosmith in Season 30, and now I can't even get into Plat with my holosmith at all.  But I can easily get to high Plat I on my Harbinger, despite only playing it for a single day and not really even thinking about combo finishers, positioning, or even much about timing.  It's a button mash that demonstrates that the rating system, right now, at a baseline, is solely based on build.  It has nothing to do with skill until maybe mid Plat II on NA.  I can't speak to EU because I don't play on EU, but I imagine that there is also a threshold there between build and skill for ratings.

This has been known since 2015 really....overnight almost, a bunch of "never seen or heard from before"  reaches P2-3 and start talking big in and around the forum, a bunch of individuals who previou held around 30-40% win rate...all of sudden they jump to 50-70% win rate and they all had one thing in common...they started to play necro and at that time it was reaper spam....then we had scourge spamm...at least this harbinger got "shaved" enough to avoid an harbinger spam...just enough.

But it wasn't just necro really...all these "stable to stardom" players had also condi chrono....then condi mirage....then condi herald....condi berseker....all condi based cheese. Left pvp around that time....every match was just a button smashing on each point to see who could spam aoe condis the faster, especially necro gameplay has always been "zug zug zug, me run mid and roll face"...that's how bad that condi patch ruined GW2 forever

[Arheundel.6451]

On 4/13/2022 at 7:24 PM, Aktium.9506 said:

Condi is such a problem that the only builds using it among the 18 specs sitting in Meta and Great tiers are Harbinger, Core Nec and Fire Weaver.

And yet....the second someone mention condis...he gets swamped by confuse emojis....so many "condi enthusiasts" for something so underpowered and useless....

[pcgamefreak.5208]

"Treat Condi like CC, Nerf Baseline Damage"

 

 

This is part why PvP/WvW is broken.....  That's the worst thing anyone can come up with.  So a player who only stacks condi for damage will only be able to 'CC'....  Forget doing any real damage huh, just 'CC'....

 

"Gawd!"

 

Yeah, lets further make the game all about stacking power to do any real damage!

 

Conditional damage SHOULD have a base damage % that always lands for those who stack the condition attribute!  If raw condi builds can't do real damage from conditions, then how are they going to win in a one on one....because power players are going to get theirs every time they land!  Instead, condi builds have to first stack conditions on a players which is next to impossible because of all the "bullet proofing" given to 'OP' classes and because players are not going to stand still and let you stack conditions on them.

 

You don't even average 1k conditional ticks even while having at or over 2k condition attribute (without might), against most 'OP' classes.  So if a condi was due 7k damage in ticks, that player will be lucky to even get 1k damage in because of the cleansing and other "bullet proofing."  So basically, you're doing nothing while the power players is constantly pounding you with high damage hits.

 

This is why pure condi builds needs condition damage that's going to land at least 70% of the tick damage, unblockable and the last 30% can be block, cleansed, etc etc.  This will allow conditional damage to be a real thing when stacked and give players another build option other than going power this and power that.  That's so boring and makes for poor game design.

 

If you want to 'nerf' something, 'nerf' ranged damage!  Makes no sense players can kill anyone who has to get close at range.  Range damage should be 'CC'....let them do their main damage up close and stop hiding behind range!

 

 

[Sahne.6950]

1 hour ago, Horace.3184 said:

"Treat Condi like CC, Nerf Baseline Damage"

 

 

This is part why PvP/WvW is broken.....  That's the worst thing anyone can come up with.  So a player who only stacks condi for damage will only be able to 'CC'....  Forget doing any real damage huh, just 'CC'....

 

"Gawd!"

 

Yeah, lets further make the game all about stacking power to do any real damage!

 

Conditional damage SHOULD have a base damage % that always lands for those who stack the condition attribute!  If raw condi builds can't do real damage from conditions, then how are they going to win in a one on one....because power players are going to get theirs every time they land!  Instead, condi builds have to first stack conditions on a players which is next to impossible because of all the "bullet proofing" given to 'OP' classes and because players are not going to stand still and let you stack conditions on them.

 

You don't even average 1k conditional ticks even while having at or over 2k condition attribute (without might), against most 'OP' classes.  So if a condi was due 7k damage in ticks, that player will be lucky to even get 1k damage in because of the cleansing and other "bullet proofing."  So basically, you're doing nothing while the power players is constantly pounding you with high damage hits.

 

This is why pure condi builds needs condition damage that's going to land at least 70% of the tick damage, unblockable and the last 30% can be block, cleansed, etc etc.  This will allow conditional damage to be a real thing when stacked and give players another build option other than going power this and power that.  That's so boring and makes for poor game design.

 

If you want to 'nerf' something, 'nerf' ranged damage!  Makes no sense players can kill anyone who has to get close at range.  Range damage should be 'CC'....let them do their main damage up close and stop hiding behind range!

 

 

uhm... excuse me!? 😂😂

[Azure The Heartless.3261]

whoever added that little necro forum code snark makes me smile every time.

[Bast.7253]

I think burn could use a rework but I’m not sure what a better approach would be.

 

Maybe have it start off low damage and increase as it nears the end of the duration? 
 

and maybe have it automatically spread to nearby enemies. I mean realistically if something is on fire, it would spread to other things right? 
 

burns have just always felt more like power damage than condi because of how strong and fast they are. 
 

torment and confusion are kind of pointless now. Poison is really deadly but it usually requires traits, and a lot of the times it’s just free healing reduction that gets passively applied by pets or certain attacks which is what makes it so bad.

 

bleeds are kinda easy to deal with but the really long duration can get annoying. I think bleeds thematically and as a condition work well though.

 

really poison and burn are the main conditions I think tend to be the worst offenders. Confusion is rough at high stacks but can be easily managed with duration application and excess cover condition availability. 

Edited September 30, 2022 by Bast.7253

[lblazer.5381]

1 hour ago, Bast.7253 said:

I think burn could use a rework but I’m not sure what a better approach would be.

 

Maybe have it start off low damage and increase as it nears the end of the duration? 
 

and maybe have it automatically spread to nearby enemies. I mean realistically if something is on fire, it would spread to other things right? 
 

burns have just always felt more like power damage than condi because of how strong and fast they are. 
 

torment and confusion are kind of pointless now. Poison is really deadly but it usually requires traits, and a lot of the times it’s just free healing reduction that gets passively applied by pets or certain attacks which is what makes it so bad.

 

bleeds are kinda easy to deal with but the really long duration can get annoying. I think bleeds thematically and as a condition work well though.

 

really poison and burn are the main conditions I think tend to be the worst offenders. Confusion is rough at high stacks but can be easily managed with duration application and removing cover excess cover condition application. 

like the idea of fire spreading but not sure how it affects game play

if game design was for being realistically there already fixed ranger LB 5 if you compare it with engineer mortar and other skills

[felix.2386]

On 4/21/2022 at 2:47 AM, Arheundel.6451 said:

And yet....the second someone mention condis...he gets swamped by confuse emojis....so many "condi enthusiasts" for something so underpowered and useless....

because it is king of low tier, they need it to kill people in low tier where people can't press buttons lol.

condi build is low tier players favorite

you may not see any higher tier condi build

but in the low tier

man, druid condi, soul beast condi, willbender condi, core guard condi, condi mech, p/d condi thief, condi herald

they all starts plaguing

[Swagg.9236]

The best way to design, implement and balance DoTs is as conditional triggers for actual damage or some other significant mechanic like party-centric buffs.  GW2's conditions, being only truly useful as untyped damage, serve no purpose except to artificially and arbitrarily compete with power-scaled damage.

You can make conditions hit like a wet noodle on impact and shift all DPS into the actual DoT, sure, but you're not going to change the fact that you have two competing damage sources that, together, really only serve to lengthen time on the grind treadmill in PvE.  Frankly, if you wanted, you could implement OP's idea, and then scale ALL damage off of zerker stats.  Nothing significant would change.  That's how badly implemented GW2 conditions are lol

[Leonidrex.5649]

On 4/13/2022 at 6:24 PM, memausz.7264 said:

Has you even played PvP lately?  Harbinger, bub.  Harbinger.  And virtuoso to some extent.

 

On the other side of that coin are builds with condis that last TOO LONG.  Rangers, mesmers, deadeyes, NECROS, some pistol engi builds, some renegade builds definitely are on the side of the coin with condis that last too long.  I'm talkin 10+ seconds of non-stop poison, multiple applications of immobilization for 3+ seconds, torment that lasts 7+ seconds, etc.  Yet someone mortar kit's blind fields was considered too strong and had to be nerfed.  SMH this community doesn't understand balance and it shows.

condis lasting long is actually BAD. it makes them cleansing super easy.
As someone who dabbled in condi ranger, and doing some napkin math with my poison dmg compared to dmg trigger off  predators cunning, I came to conclusion that on AVERAGE poison lasts 2-2,5s. This included fights from start to finish ( which also included damage to downed bodies ).
Realistically if condition lasts more then 5s you dont have ANY hope of it generating value from those 5s.
2-3s is how long they last.