Group Quickness for Warrior confirmed. [Merged]

[Gorem.8104]

Ya know, all we wanted was for banners to be improved, and we stated ages ago that if they just swapped their unique buffs for boons, it will kill bannerslave and make warriors a class no one picks for anything. If quickness really is the only thing? I do wonder how they will implement it, but if they remove the stat increases and only give boons, that is such a huge nerf. 

Why not just update them so that they are on our backs on cast and move with us? Make it so that Warrior is a true banner wielder providing buffs no other class can in combat while they battle with banners that are insta cast to their backs. 

[Infusion.7149]

57 minutes ago, Gorem.8104 said:

Ya know, all we wanted was for banners to be improved, and we stated ages ago that if they just swapped their unique buffs for boons, it will kill bannerslave and make warriors a class no one picks for anything. If quickness really is the only thing? I do wonder how they will implement it, but if they remove the stat increases and only give boons, that is such a huge nerf. 

Why not just update them so that they are on our backs on cast and move with us? Make it so that Warrior is a true banner wielder providing buffs no other class can in combat while they battle with banners that are insta cast to their backs. 

Warrior is far more flexible than druid or the joke that is PVE herald right now (more or less might with slow ramp, fury, swiftness, some prot) , especially if warrior gets offensive boons. Druid is being pushed out by heal mechanist right now everywhere it doesn't have a push role (see EOD strikes and even IBS strikes). If all they do is slap some quickness on banners it is instantly meta or offmeta so long as you run heal mechanist. If your issue is with my hunch that the bonuses will be made universal you're incorrect. Everyone would rather take one warrior that does all bonuses than a ranger (spotter) + engineer (pinpoint distribution which isn't even on meta alac and especially not on heal mech) + revenant (AP) + defense-wise random guardian running Strength in Numbers which isn't part of any DPS build. We already saw this before even without the introduction of quickness, people asked for HB+Alac+BS.

What would you rather run in a 5 man comp? a HB+ alac ren , quickness BS + heal mech, or StM chrono + alac druid? Heal mech is far more flexible in any scenario there is agony (namely in fractals) and quickness BS fills in the deficit in CC and quickness. If you lack might for whatever reason (i.e. you run cele alac ren) swapping to tactics for a DPS loss also fills that gap.

Edited April 17, 2022 by Infusion.7149

[Blood Red Arachnid.2493]

I do wonder how group comps would shift with this.  Assuming banners both grant their passive bonuses and also grant quickness in a reasonable way, we might see the problem of some sort of super-quickness and super-alacrity from rangers.  What I mean by this is that, while other professions give quickness, Warrior would give it alongside of their own unique buffs, effectively making them quickness + 400 raw stat points.  This would make Warrior the de-facto best quickness provider, since the other providers (STM chrono, Catalyst, Harbinger, Scrapper) give the boon out with no obvious additional benefits.  The only one that could compete by sheer boon load and mechanical advantage would be the Firebrand.  Similarly, rangers (particularly Druid) already handle a lot of mechanics, and their spirits giving super-alac would make the alacrity given by other professions far inferior by comparison.

It's possible Anet is going to make the boons and the stat bonuses mutually exclusive somehow.  But otherwise I wonder what will happen with group balance.  

[Hotride.2187]

4 hours ago, Gorem.8104 said:

we stated ages ago that if they just swapped their unique buffs for boons, it will kill bannerslave and make warriors a class no one picks for anything. If quickness really is the only thing?

For pve it actually is. For pvp/wvw stab mightve given guard at least some competition... but they arent making the change for those 2 pillars of the game.

Edited April 17, 2022 by Hotride.2187

[Hotride.2187]

2 hours ago, Blood Red Arachnid.2493 said:

It's possible Anet is going to make the boons and the stat bonuses mutually exclusive somehow.  But otherwise I wonder what will happen with group balance.  

They already wrote they want to get rid of the unique buffs.

[Jzaku.9765]

5 hours ago, Infusion.7149 said:

Warrior is far more flexible than druid or the joke that is PVE herald right now (more or less might with slow ramp, fury, swiftness, some prot) , especially if warrior gets offensive boons. Druid is being pushed out by heal mechanist right now everywhere it doesn't have a push role (see EOD strikes and even IBS strikes). If all they do is slap some quickness on banners it is instantly meta or offmeta so long as you run heal mechanist. If your issue is with my hunch that the bonuses will be made universal you're incorrect. Everyone would rather take one warrior that does all bonuses than a ranger (spotter) + engineer (pinpoint distribution which isn't even on meta alac and especially not on heal mech) + revenant (AP) + defense-wise random guardian running Strength in Numbers which isn't part of any DPS build. We already saw this before even without the introduction of quickness, people asked for HB+Alac+BS.

What would you rather run in a 5 man comp? a HB+ alac ren , quickness BS + heal mech, or StM chrono + alac druid? Heal mech is far more flexible in any scenario there is agony (namely in fractals) and quickness BS fills in the deficit in CC and quickness. If you lack might for whatever reason (i.e. you run cele alac ren) swapping to tactics for a DPS loss also fills that gap.

You apply a comparison case for Druid where it is competing with hMech but don't apply this to quickness Warrior?

 

qWarrior will be competing in the same space as quickbrand and quickcata, and it will be doing significantly less DPS than it does now with Diviner gear.

[Hotride.2187]

1 hour ago, Jzaku.9765 said:

and it will be doing significantly less DPS than it does now with Diviner gear.

I was thinking this too actually, I wonder how that will get "solved" (and if).

[Katary.7096]

Well, quickness is better than I expected. Hopefully the base duration for quickness is going to be solid. Especially power warrior builds would not do well with high concentration investment, since that conflicts with their ability to reach crit cap. The devs say that hybrid damage and support builds have about 75% of the dps of pure dmg builds, lets see if they get close to that target.

[Lan Deathrider.5910]

Opt in quickness, so it would be fron the banner trait. Double standards is getting changed then to grant quickness on banner summon, maybe even per pulse.

Better if it is per pulse. Better still if another boon is included, like might and/or fury.

Better still again if they take our long running request/advice to have the banners mobile with the warrior.

As far as whether it is a meta thing or not depends on what the base banners do and how much concentration is needed to do well with them. Who knows, they may throw healing onto them, or damage pulses. Depends on Anet.

[Grand Marshal.4098]

Point is, I doubt us competetive players will even feel a change with the new banners which will be sad after the fiasco that badesworn is...

I suppose anet views shoutsworn as balanced and the way to go for competetive warriors, so banners, phalanx strength and the other specs are to be left as is, cause who cares amirite.

I sleep on PvE, I don't care about it at all and who has which role. I just want proper options to experiment with in comp.

Sure let's "change" banners, a rework is supposed to affect all gamemodes afterall, but let's not buff PS, let shouts be as they are, let Martial Cadence as probably more useless than other GMs in the currently "strongest" line etc, etc. 

So if Double Standards remains in Discipline and is the trait to give quickness on banners, do you think they will keep Heightened Focus as well? Too much quickness from discipline if you ask me, based on their standards. Shouts would def work as a good replacement to that in Discipline, moving banners to tactics and creating a couple good support traits, but I digress and we have said aaaaall this again before.

Literally, Bannerslave for stats or now for quickness, I wonder how PvE warriors will react to it if it happens. Will this be the expected result anet tried to solve? I don't think that the stats where the problem, rather the utility the banners provided. But hell no who cares about all the suggestions that have been made here in this forum.

[Lan Deathrider.5910]

For me the biggest gripe with banners after losing the bundles was their static placement. That is what kept me from using them. Even open world PvE they suck because of it. The prime change to any banner rework is to make them mobile, or zero cast time + zero pick up time.

Because to me so long as that issue persists then they are garbage tier no matter what they do.

[Grand Marshal.4098]

31 minutes ago, Lan Deathrider.5910 said:

For me the biggest gripe with banners after losing the bundles was their static placement. That is what kept me from using them. Even open world PvE they suck because of it. The prime change to any banner rework is to make them mobile, or zero cast time + zero pick up time.

Because to me so long as that issue persists then they are garbage tier no matter what they do.

Agreed. And they will not adress it cause boons = rework for anet. Like hell they'd actually revamp the skills to be mobile.

 

[felix.2386]

finally, pve will have no one to play warrior. cuz why need a quickness warrior when u can get quickness firebrand

good that they get rid of banner...bored of it since 2012

[Obtena.7952]

1 hour ago, felix.2386 said:

finally, pve will have no one to play warrior. cuz why need a quickness warrior when u can get quickness firebrand

good that they get rid of banner...bored of it since 2012

They aren't getting rid of banners. Not sure what posts you are reading. 

[Lan Deathrider.5910]

10 minutes ago, Obtena.7952 said:

They aren't getting rid of banners. Not sure what posts you are reading. 

Felix is implying that removing the stats and putting in boons would effectively remove banners from gameplay due to making them suck even more.

Depends on what Anet does with it is though.

[Infusion.7149]

7 hours ago, Jzaku.9765 said:

You apply a comparison case for Druid where it is competing with hMech but don't apply this to quickness Warrior?

 

qWarrior will be competing in the same space as quickbrand and quickcata, and it will be doing significantly less DPS than it does now with Diviner gear.

The balance mechanism has always been to use 3/4 of the full DPS as the quickness/alac variant. See the article I linked above. Warrior without banner is a 37-38K DPS spec (and bladesworn has 37Kbenchmark  with banners) so a quickness warrior would still be around 28-30K similar to StM chrono or quick scrapper. 33K harbinger / cata / firebrand exist now (with the harbinger/catalyst needing bare minimum boon duration) but none of those have unique buffs and arguably firebrand is overtuned at the moment even after the mantra of solace and tome of justice changes since you only need ~25% boon duration but firebrand rune has +40% quickness. In addition to that catalyst is woefully unreliable due to 240 radius and needing people to be stationary in the jade sphere for 5 seconds. The quickness is not on cast but per pulse.

In any power scenario such as VG/KC you also get +35% power bonus. Even if you play power quickbrand that was ~25K back when exposed still favored power.

---

Also I don't understand the gripe about banners in competitive modes. Do people not play anything but PVE? Banner was used on support spellbreaker as an elite in PVP in the past and in WVW on power berserker DPS. You aren't running zero damage headbutt to stun yourself in WVW while on berserker.

Edited April 17, 2022 by Infusion.7149

[Obtena.7952]

12 minutes ago, Lan Deathrider.5910 said:

Felix is implying that removing the stats and putting in boons would effectively remove banners from gameplay due to making them suck even more.

Depends on what Anet does with it is though.

Well, it would definitely add more overlap than is necessary in a team for certain. Given that most Warrior boons have restricted or triggered access, it might be entirely the case that boon-giving banners with quickness is actually desirable as a solo warrior. I like my perma quickness build ... I don't like I have to combo things to get it. I wouldn't have a problem replacing all that with a banner. 

I guess we wait and see what happens. 

Edited April 17, 2022 by Obtena.7952

[Fueki.4753]

17 hours ago, Obtena.7952 said:

I wouldn't be so certain the stats are removed entirely ... there needs to be SOMETHING that makes the banners unique. 

From Warrior players' respective, this is correct.

But we know that, most of the time, Arenanet thinks wildly different (and often in the opposite direction) from Warrior players. This means, the loss of the unique effects is not unrealistic.

Edited April 17, 2022 by Fueki.4753

[Obtena.7952]

4 minutes ago, Fueki.4753 said:

From Warrior players' respective, this is correct.

But we know that, most of the time, Arenanet thinks wildly different (and often in the opposite direction) from Warrior players. This means, the loss of unique is not unrealistic.

I think we can be assured that as weird as some of Anet's decisions are to us, banners will SOMEHOW still need to be unique from each other. It would be absolutely STUPID for Anet to make 4 banner skills do the exact same thing considering that there is no other skill family that has any two skills the same. 

Edited April 17, 2022 by Obtena.7952

[Lan Deathrider.5910]

2 minutes ago, Obtena.7952 said:

I think we can be assured that as weird as some of Anet's decisions are to us, banners will SOMEHOW still need to be unique from each other. It would be absolutely STUPID for Anet to make 4 banner skills do the exact same thing. 

Probably be:

Strength: might 

Discipline: fury 

Tactics: Regen 

Defense: protection, resistance, or resolution

Battle standard: unchanged

Trait gives quickness and maybe one other boon, MAYBE.

 

 

 

[Fueki.4753]

7 minutes ago, Obtena.7952 said:

I think we can be assured that as weird as some of Anet's decisions are to us, banners will SOMEHOW still need to be unique from each other. It would be absolutely STUPID for Anet to make 4 banner skills do the exact same thing. 

If the banners simply pulse different boons (as a worthless "replacement" for the unique effects) that's enough for Arenanet to consider them sufficiently distinct from each other. Putting more love than that into a rework for Warrior would surprise me.

We know that kicking it out of organized group play has been the most effort Arenanet gave towards Warrior so far.

Edited April 17, 2022 by Fueki.4753

[Jzaku.9765]

32 minutes ago, Infusion.7149 said:

The balance mechanism has always been to use 3/4 of the full DPS as the quickness/alac variant. See the article I linked above. Warrior without banner is a 37-38K DPS spec (and bladesworn has 37Kbenchmark  with banners) so a quickness warrior would still be around 28-30K similar to StM chrono or quick scrapper. 33K harbinger / cata / firebrand exist now (with the harbinger/catalyst needing bare minimum boon duration) but none of those have unique buffs and arguably firebrand is overtuned at the moment even after the mantra of solace and tome of justice changes since you only need ~25% boon duration but firebrand rune has +40% quickness. In addition to that catalyst is woefully unreliable due to 240 radius and needing people to be stationary in the jade sphere for 5 seconds. The quickness is not on cast but per pulse.

In any power scenario such as VG/KC you also get +35% power bonus. Even if you play power quickbrand that was ~25K back when exposed still favored power.

---

Also I don't understand the gripe about banners in competitive modes. Do people not play anything but PVE? Banner was used on support spellbreaker as an elite in PVP in the past and in WVW on power berserker DPS. You aren't running zero damage headbutt to stun yourself in WVW while on berserker.

It's a little hard to tell but I think you are under the impression that banners will retain their stat buffs after this change that makes them grant quickness. In the same blogpost you reference (state of the game post) they are pretty clear that this will not be the case.

They are removing the stat buffs from banners and the passive effects of Ranger spirits. 

[Infusion.7149]

4 minutes ago, Jzaku.9765 said:

It's a little hard to tell but I think you are under the impression that banners will retain their stat buffs after this change that makes them grant quickness. In the same blogpost you reference (state of the game post) they are pretty clear that this will not be the case.

They are removing the stat buffs from banners and the passive effects of Ranger spirits. 

Even if you run with that assumption that all the buffs are replaced by boons such as might/swiftness/fury/vigor/regen/prot/stab/etc it still is going to be in a decent spot and no worse than catalyst/StM chrono/scrapper. Warrior has far more consistency than catalyst (unless they make the banners boon range miniscule which is not the case right now) and StM chrono. Unless you are running between zones midfight in a power scenario (such as on CA) the superspeed of scrapper is largely inconsequential and you don't have good sources of fury on chrono or scrapper. Personally, I regularly am top 2 or 3 in DPS in PvE PUGs while on warrior and I am more of a spellbreaker player and warrior is not my top played PvE class whatsoever. I've even had speedclear players on warrior in groups before pushing 30K+ on banners with shoddy boon coverage.

Frost Spirit is the only real relevant ranger spirit technically as far as non-boon buffs (you have immob on stone spirit as well), in a condi comp people regularly ran mirage for might , when tempest was 10 man people used that, and now heal mech. Internal Cooldown on Sun Spirit is 8 seconds.

[Jzaku.9765]

6 minutes ago, Infusion.7149 said:

Even if you run with that assumption that all the buffs are replaced by boons such as might/swiftness/fury/vigor/regen/prot/stab/etc it still is going to be in a decent spot and no worse than catalyst/StM chrono/scrapper. Warrior has far more consistency than catalyst (unless they make the banners boon range miniscule which is not the case right now) and StM chrono. Unless you are running between zones midfight in a power scenario (such as on CA) the superspeed of scrapper is largely inconsequential and you don't have good sources of fury on chrono or scrapper. Personally, I regularly am top 2 or 3 in DPS in PvE PUGs while on warrior and I am more of a spellbreaker player and warrior is not my top played PvE class whatsoever. I've even had speedclear players on warrior in groups before pushing 30K+ on banners with shoddy boon coverage.

Frost Spirit is the only real relevant ranger spirit technically as far as non-boon buffs (you have immob on stone spirit as well), in a condi comp people regularly ran mirage for might , when tempest was 10 man people used that, and now heal mech. Internal Cooldown on Sun Spirit is 8 seconds.

We agree on many points but the comparison still needs to be made between quickness builds and it is far less clear cut than your original post makes it out to be.

How often do you see quickness Harbinger and Catalyst? Even before EOD, how often did you see quickness Scrapper? Not very often, because firebrand (both quickdps and heal) is absolutely dominating that space and will continue to. That is the same space Warrior will be competing in. 

Edited April 17, 2022 by Jzaku.9765

[Infusion.7149]

54 minutes ago, Jzaku.9765 said:

We agree on many points but the comparison still needs to be made between quickness builds and it is far less clear cut than your original post makes it out to be.

How often do you see quickness Harbinger and Catalyst? Even before EOD, how often did you see quickness Scrapper? Not very often, because firebrand (both quickdps and heal) is absolutely dominating that space and will continue to. That is the same space Warrior will be competing in. 

I see harbinger quite often but I play in MANY groups. The fact is firebrand is overtuned and harbinger is only the same benchmark (with minimum boon duration and jade core 10) with more risk. Necro is a popular class along with guardian but between the two firebrand is less risky. Condi quick harbinger is still condi at the end of the day. CQB is condi so that is why it (quick harbinger) has to contend with CQB. Harbinger may be ranged but the quickness is melee ranged and so is any pulsed shroud damage ; dark barrage (shroud 2) requires relatively close range to hit all strikes.

I play quick scrapper quite often when paired with druids (which apply fury) and if the group doesn't mind offmeta. If paired with a power mech or heal mech it works as well (heal mech has fury), especially on power bosses. Back to back comparison or even within the same squad it does more damage in those scenarios because of +35% power bonuses and fast phasing decimating the burning damage output on QB. You wouldn't run it on a condi boss whatsoever because while grenades are ranged the hammer is melee. It's certainly more usable than playing StM chrono after all nerfs, you won't have 28K benchmark or anything remotely close to that unless you ran SC level boon duration and have perfect rotation : even speedclear players run 50% BD on StM chrono. Recommended boon duration for scrapper is on the order of 33% after the Kinetic Accerators trait is accounted for which is far more lax than StM chrono. Warrior CC innately is superior to quickness scrapper as the primary CC is blast gyro (232CC, part of quickness rotation so doesn't quite help as far as timing), Supply Drop (200CC with long 120s cooldown) , Thunderclap (100CC , 20 cooldown), and spare capacitor (200 CC, 24s base cooldown). Right now the engineer dilemma is most people ask for mechanist over scrapper despite mechanist needing to put the mech on avoid if you want the mech to not need micromanagement of "return to me" spam.

Catalyst is currently a trainwreck as a quickness boon provider because even when it pulled 35K quick and 43K pDPS benchmark it was rare to see it. I tried the quickness catalyst at the time jade sphere was 5s cooldown and was able to do 70%+ uptime in a real fight with only arcane traitline as per the SC optional setups (no Sphere Specialist boon duration trait). With the change to jade sphere to be +100% boon duration (Sphere Specialist) and 15s base cooldown , if you miss a jade sphere on air attunement you potentially are out 10+ seconds of quickness even with alacrity up. Current quickness rotation on catalyst only outputs might and quickness unless you slot in spectacular sphere which drops your damage by up to 10% (so 30K benchmark tops in that case) to allow for fury and 5 more might. When is the last time you have seen anyone ask for catalyst?

If you think about scenarios where StM chrono is still commonly asked for such as on VG (+35% for power), KC (+35% for power), CA (phased fight with CC requirement for adds), Samarog (phased fight with high CC requirement), Sloth (not so much anymore but it's still a phased fight with high CC requirement), Xera (mainly as tank due to channeled block and evade), Adina (phased fight with high power bias) those are the situations a quickness warrior would excel as well. Remember, for the longest time BS warrior was part of fractal meta until the exposed change made condi meta. It is fairly consistent between players and brings decent CC.

The answer is not to supercharge warrior further just to compete, Arenanet is clearly using ~28K StM chrono / quick scrapper as baseline. Arenenet even mentioned 3/4 of full DPS as the boon support baseline which is why CQB has been nerfed in the past few patches , albeit without massive results since there is inertia due to gearing and player perception.

Edited April 17, 2022 by Infusion.7149