Is Condi Virtuoso Overhyped compared to Power Virtuoso?

[KeoLegend.5132]

Hello guys, i cam from a long time playing Power Chrono, but the rotation were too overwhelming, so i kinda went back to my guardian.

Now with the Virtuoso, it seems the rotation is less reliant on slow and also nice, but i saw ppl recommending Condi over Power, so my question is:

 

1. Is Condi Virtuoso way better/easier than power or just a bit? PvE endgame and some open world

2. JAGGED MIND. How much heal per second does it realistically gives? I want to be able to solo at least some champions HP, does this trait makes Condi build waay more beefy or is the HPS just overrated? PvE and open World

3. Considering that i'll be doing some WvW, should i stick with Power or go Condi?

Ty in advance

Edited April 24, 2022 by KeoLegend.5132

[Tseison.4659]

9 minutes ago, KeoLegend.5132 said:

Hello guys, i cam from a long time playing Power Chrono, but the rotation were too overwhelming, so i kinda went back to my guardian.

Now with the Virtuoso, it seems the rotation is less reliant on slow and also nice, but i saw ppl recommending Condi over Power, so my question is:

 

1. Is Condi Virtuoso way better/easier than power or just a bit?

2. JAGGED MIND. How much heal per second does it realistically gives? I want to be able to solo at least some champions HP, does this trait makes Condi build waay more beefy or is the HPS just overrated?

3. Considering that i'll be doing some WvW, should i stick with Power or go Condi?

Ty in advance

From what I’ve been hearing and I for one couldn’t care less because I won’t be trying it myself, is that condi virtuoso is strong in PvE “yipee”… Now in the case of WvW and since I’m there often, I don’t see many to ANY in there and either see a small and I mean SMALL crumb of Mesmers in there but are usually either: Core, Mirage, Chrono for support and then the odd Virtuoso. I see players like Shaloc in there often who I think plays mostly power Virtuoso or perhaps dabbles in both. Regardless, with the amount of condition cleanse and projectile neglect that’s been going on for a long time, I don’t see a point in taking it there and that spec won’t save you from even better players who knows how to exploit the specs many weaknesses.

Now in no way am I trying to come off as discouraging, just speaking facts because every time I’m roaming or in a small group, I’m unphased by a Virtuoso unless you know, I just so happen to be fighting alongside another group, skills happen to be on cooldown at the wrong time and I get overpowered. Other than that, in small scale fights power I’d say would be more helpful but it really depends on your playstyle, the enemy profession you happen to be fighting at the present moment AND choosing your fights wisely. Hopefully this helps and gives a bit of clarity.

Edited April 24, 2022 by Tseison.4659

[KeoLegend.5132]

1 minute ago, Tseison.4659 said:

From what I’ve been hearing and I for one couldn’t care less because I won’t be trying it myself, is that condi virtuoso is strong in PvE “yipee”… Now in the case of WvW and since I’m there often, I don’t see many to ANY in there and either see a small and I mean SMALL crumb of Mesmers in there but are usually either: Core, Mirage, Chrono for support and then the odd Virtuoso. I see players like Shaloc in there often who I think plays mostly power Virtuoso or perhaps dabbles in both. Regardless, with the amount of condition cleanse and projectile neglect that’s been going on for a long time, I don’t see a point in taking it there and that spec won’t save you from even better players who knows how to exploit the specs many weaknesses.

Now in no way am I trying to come off as discouraging, just speaking facts because every time I’m roaming or in a small group, I’m unphased by a Virtuoso unless you know, I just so happen to be fighting alongside another group, skills happen to be on cooldown at the wrong time and I get overpowered. Other than that, in small scale fights power I’d say would be more helpful but it really depends on your playstyle, the enemy profession you happen to be fighting at the present moment AND choosing your fights wisely. Hopefully this helps and gives a bit of clarity.

thanks but the main question here is about PvE, Condi with Jagged mind -x- Power Virtuoso. Is Condi sustain much bigger or is just a small gimmick?

[Ashen.2907]

9 minutes ago, KeoLegend.5132 said:

thanks but the main question here is about PvE, Condi with Jagged mind -x- Power Virtuoso. Is Condi sustain much bigger or is just a small gimmick?

Condi Virtuoso's sustain in PvE is superior to power Virtuoso's sustain. You will stock blades faster triggering your heal more often, and 3% of your condi damage is not inconsequential.

[KeoLegend.5132]

7 minutes ago, Ashen.2907 said:

Condi Virtuoso's sustain in PvE is superior to power Virtuoso's sustain. You will stock blades faster triggering your heal more often, and 3% of your condi damage is not inconsequential.

how much healing is that?

like how much per second on average? Is it 100? 500? 1000? 3000?

 

[Ombras.2853]

6 minutes ago, Ashen.2907 said:

Condi Virtuoso's sustain in PvE is superior to power Virtuoso's sustain. You will stock blades faster triggering your heal more often, and 3% of your condi damage is not inconsequential.

This.

Other than the above point, honest the topic is spacing between too many things at once.

Condi Virtuoso is a very, very good build in the current pve end game mode, and it’s superior to its power counterpart, if that’s the question, in both damage and survivability. Difficulty wise, the rotation is very similar.

For WvW, in zerging Virtuoso is useless. For roaming, Cele Virtuoso is the best current build. 

 

[KeoLegend.5132]

3 minutes ago, Ombras.2853 said:

This.

Other than the above point, honest the topic is spacing between too many things at once.

Condi Virtuoso is a very, very good build in the current pve end game mode, and it’s superior to its power counterpart, if that’s the question, in both damage and survivability. Difficulty wise, the rotation is very similar.

For WvW, in zerging Virtuoso is useless. For roaming, Cele Virtuoso is the best current build. 

 

i would like to know more because i got some different responses from WvW ppl.
1. Celes virtuoso is trash, dmg is a wet noodle.

2. Zerging with Power Virt is not that bad in a group and with the unblockable trait

 

Also, talking about PvE i would like to know about how much better Jagged mind is, because i think its because of that single trait that Condi Virt is regarded as better sustain-wise

 

[Ashen.2907]

1 minute ago, KeoLegend.5132 said:

how much healing is that?

like how much per second on average? Is it 100? 500? 1000? 3000?

 

If you are pulling, lets say, 20k dps in a strike, and 14k of that is condi, and 11k of your condi dps is bleeds, then 3% of 11k is 330 HPS. Add in 350 health every time you stock a blade. As long as you do not sit on fully stocked blades constantly you will be able to stock a blade every second or so on average. Sometimes 5 blades in an instant, other times you will be waiting for your bladesomgs to come off cooldown before you can spend blades in order to restock them. Just remember that you are not stocking blades, not overwriting existing blades, when you are at full blade capacity. 

[Ombras.2853]

1 minute ago, KeoLegend.5132 said:

i would like to know more because i got some different responses from WvW ppl.
1. Celes virtuoso is trash, dmg is a wet noodle.

2. Zerging with Power Virt is not that bad in a group and with the unblockable trait

 

Also, talking about PvE i would like to know about how much better Jagged mind is, because i think its because of that single trait that Condi Virt is regarded as better sustain-wise

 

You are being told that Cele Virtuoso is trash by people who don’t play Cele gear or that have a crusade against it. Pretty much. Power Virtuoso is “allright” if you play it as a stealth Mesmer, and that’s pretty much it. Not horrible, don’t get me wrong (I also play it) but it has some serious survivability flaws, and in the world of 1vsX that’s a real issue.

[mungozen.2379]

1 hour ago, KeoLegend.5132 said:

1. Is Condi Virtuoso way better/easier than power or just a bit? PvE endgame and some open world

Condi Virt is fairly easy, in that you can face-roll and do significant DPS.  However to get the top DPS you do need to be smart and effective with using your Signet of Ether and Signet of Illusions CD's.  If you were going for Max DPS on a Golem or in a raid/strike, you are likely weaving SoE and SoI into your rotation to optimize for maximum DPS.  In Open world you can skip doing this and even replace SoI with another Utility.

1 hour ago, KeoLegend.5132 said:

2. JAGGED MIND. How much heal per second does it realistically gives? I want to be able to solo at least some champions HP, does this trait makes Condi build waay more beefy or is the HPS just overrated? PvE and open World

I wouldn't rely on Jagged Minds alone for any significant healing.

Jagged Mind HPS will scale with the Condi DPS you are doing, which with the typical build is 60-65% DPS from Bleeds and 10-15% from Torment (plus another 0-5% Confusion or other Condi).  If we say average of 70% DPS is Condi, and you are at 10k DPS, then about 210 HPS from Jagged Minds alone.  It is not significant but it does help smooth out bumps along the way.

That said, 10k DPS is average for Condi Virtuoso and against a solo target you may hit 30k pending the buffs you have (in open world).  Against multiple targets that number can hit 50-70k, which at that point is returning 1000-1500 HPS.

Signet of Ether helps fill in the gaps here, and you can also swap out Dueling for Chaos or Inspiration if you want more self sustain.  I prefer Chaos in Open World over Dueling, it gives you much more sustain and utility without a significant DPS loss.

I run Chaos + Illusions + Virtuoso and can solo a lot of Champ Bounties and all HP (Some Champs are just a hard counter, and anything that reflects is punishing).  You can do it with Dueling but you are a bit more fragile and that extra DPS might not mean much if you can't sustain the fight.

1 hour ago, KeoLegend.5132 said:

Also, talking about PvE i would like to know about how much better Jagged mind is, because i think its because of that single trait that Condi Virt is regarded as better sustain-wise

If you are taking Jagged Minds I am thinking you are building your Virtuoso functionally differently than the other Trait options.  It's not like you are building Condi Virt without Jagged Minds.  

Compare it to Mental Focus, which is a pure DPS trait with a downside (600 range).  Mental Focus is just another DPS multiplier that fits into a typical Power Melee build, where Jagged Minds pushes you to a totally different playstyle.  It is hard to compare which is better since you want to be doing very different things with these traits.  A better question may be, 'If I build Power Virt, where do I get my (incremental) sustain from?' since it isn't Mental Focus.

 

[Levetty.1279]

5 hours ago, KeoLegend.5132 said:

Is Condi Virtuoso way better/easier than power or just a bit? PvE endgame and some open world

If using the budget gear version of condi (which you will be as nobody wants to waste all their gold on writs) the dps is pretty similar, power has more burst, condi has a simpler rotation.

In open world traited greatsword has great burst and better synergy with our boon generating traits which you will be wanting to take over the raid build traits when playing solo. Condition doesn't work well with those traits as it summons less phantasms and pWarden doesn't even work with the phantasmal haste/persistence of memory combo because of its long attack time.

Because of the lower burst and lack of self boons condition takes much longer to kill things which negates the healing from Jagged Edge.

 

6 hours ago, KeoLegend.5132 said:

2.  HPS just overrated? 

Very. People act like you can use it to face tank raid bosses when in reality its closer to an extra regen effect. Remember its directly tied to your damage so this is even lower in open world. Its not really enough to be soloing group events, like Mirage could with the old torment runes. 

 

6 hours ago, KeoLegend.5132 said:

3. Considering that i'll be doing some WvW, should i stick with Power or go Condi?

The bleed only lasts a second in WvW so condi is immediately trash. Power isn't much better honestly and it seems only celestial works but that is because its celestial and that is what celestial does. You are better off with Mirage for WvW, although once again with celestial gear.

 

Honestly, I use condi in instanced since I already went to the trouble of putting the gear together and Power in open world.

[mortrialus.3062]

Virtuoso, power and condi, are excellent DPS in group settings against big bosses.  Raid and strikes, metas where you know you'll have plenty of quickness and alacrity from the group. Condi might be a tiny bit better than Power at the current level of balance but both Power and Condi are excellent, excellent raid DPS and no content is going to gate keep out for being a power virtuoso instead of a condi virtuoso.

They do good soloing when you're not running up against harder mobs like champs or even some of the dangerous vets. Condi has okay sustain but it's not great because everything zeros in on you with no clones. And trying to hybridize virtuoso with more sustain doesn't patch up it's quality of life enough and just absolutely guts it's damage output, defeating the point. And trying to run like scepter or staff isn't good on Virtuoso because the weapons are broken on that spec so it's dagger or nothing.

For casual open world I generally like Chrono more.  Between tons and tons of phantasms, clones, plus gravity well, lots of slow and cripple and weakness, you're way better off handling mobs even champs than virtuoso. And you have permanent self quickness and might.

And when you're up against the truly hard open world bosses like the Champion of Balthazar in Auric Basin or the mushroom queen hero point NOTHING on mesmer beats staff staff condi mirage.

When it comes to getting as much AOE and enemy tagging in something like the Mad Kings Lab, Greatsword Mirage dunks Virtuoso.

Virtuoso has it's places where it's the best mesmer spec, but other specs are more well rounded and have way more tools than just raw damage, which ultimately is all it's got.

For WvW I'd stick with Trailblazer or Celestial Mirage.

Edited April 25, 2022 by mortrialus.3062

[Ombras.2853]

If the goal is to solo hard pve content, Celestial/Traiblazer Staff/Staff Mirage is far and away the best thing you can do in the game along with playing Necro.

[Mik.3401]

So for virtuoso at the moment, In pve instanced content, condi stacking is Just better for bosses and most other fights. Power is a valid option too though, just little bit behind it feels.

In competitive it is harder to attain sustained condi damage, it is rather spiky. Whereas power is just doing the job, it is harder to play but can attain more imho.

Edited April 25, 2022 by Mik.3401

[Ombras.2853]

Just to add to what I said previously: Power Virtuoso is still fine in certain areas. If you are an experienced raider, you’ll know that there are boss where condi damage is abysmal (let’s say KC) and in those encounters you’ll obviously switch back if you have both builds geared up. 

[Lethion.8745]

I think the main reason is Condi Virtuoso stocks blade incredibly faster than Power Virtuoso. Infinit Forge is too slow and if gets buff Power might see play too.

[RabbitUp.8294]

On 4/24/2022 at 8:33 PM, KeoLegend.5132 said:

2. JAGGED MIND. How much heal per second does it realistically gives? I want to be able to solo at least some champions HP, does this trait makes Condi build waay more beefy or is the HPS just overrated? PvE and open World

Jagged mind is nice for organised pve where your damage is higher and you don't have aggro, but virtuoso is not made for hard solo content. Compared other specs, you are not only giving up the clones that tank for you, but also mirage's dodge spam.

Not getting hit is always better than sustain. Mirage got a significant nerf with EoD, losing all the sustain from runes of tormenting, but it's still the best mesmer spec for the job.

20 hours ago, Lethion.8745 said:

I think the main reason is Condi Virtuoso stocks blade incredibly faster than Power Virtuoso. Infinit Forge is too slow and if gets buff Power might see play too.

Power virtuoso still take Bloodsong. That's just how bad the other grandmaster are. But yeah, without jagged mind, they only have Sharper Images for bleeds, so the blade generation is slower.

At the same time, both power and condi use the heal on cooldown for the phantasm resets, so you won't be getting any heals if you follow the rotation.

[KeoLegend.5132]

15 minutes ago, RabbitUp.8294 said:

Jagged mind is nice for organised pve where your damage is higher and you don't have aggro, but virtuoso is not made for hard solo content. Compared other specs, you are not only giving up the clones that tank for you, but also mirage's dodge spam.

So its kinda niche because in organized PvE you would have a healer anyway, right?

 

15 minutes ago, RabbitUp.8294 said:

Not getting hit is always better than sustain. Mirage got a significant nerf with EoD, losing all the sustain from runes of tormenting, but it's still the best mesmer spec for the job.

Power virtuoso still take Bloodsong. That's just how bad the other grandmaster are. But yeah, without jagged mind, they only have Sharper Images for bleeds, so the blade generation is slower.

At the same time, both power and condi use the heal on cooldown for the phantasm resets, so you won't be getting any heals if you follow the rotation.

Interesting, so if im running dueling then bloodsong becomes viable because i have lots of crits (and so do the phantasms).

How fast does Bloodsong generate blades in power compared to condi?

 

[JunkJunk.8971]

I’m powered build and I generate blades nonstop.  This is more from a PVP viewpoint. But I have no issues with the build there. I have less of a ramp up and I hit really hard.

 

http://gw2skills.net/editor/?PiwAg2rlVwqYXsEGKOWXJxSA-e

 

in pve all marauders.  PvP marauders amulet and energy and might sigils

Edited April 26, 2022 by JunkJunk.8971

[KeoLegend.5132]

7 hours ago, JunkJunk.8971 said:

I’m powered build and I generate blades nonstop.  This is more from a PVP viewpoint. But I have no issues with the build there. I have less of a ramp up and I hit really hard.

 

http://gw2skills.net/editor/?PiwAg2rlVwqYXsEGKOWXJxSA-e

 

in pve all marauders.  PvP marauders amulet and energy and might sigils

i used the same build as you.

Not to say that the damage is bad, it isn't that bad, but i expected it to be way better.

On CM i was hardly getting over 16k, while some power Reaper was getting 18k and a Condi Virt was getting over 20k DPS.

 

I made a cool Dagger/Focus x GS with Illu Dom and Virt but in the end, swapping to Dagger/Sword x GS with Duel Dom and Virt made DPS go up. I could manage to get 18k Bursts ALONE, but once again the DPS drops hard during the fight. Not sure if the problem is me tho, it could be.

There's some things i wished we would get:

1) Instacast bladesongs

2) Infinity Forge with an extra effect or at least 2s cooldown

3) F4 and Blade Renewal not being channeled, so we could keep fighting while defending, like a prolongued distortion

4) Some sort of "Power Bleed" to keep the DMG uptime good enough

[Mike.7983]

Healing well over 2000/sec on burst though with 100% crit rate stacking the insane blade/bleeds, add up 25k bleed ticks / 3% and its well over 600/sec per mob ontop of signet of ether. Multiply that by 5 mob pierce in addition to other conditions you do ontop.  Very high sustain as long as you fire off bladesongs at 5 asap, banking them past does not heal you.

[DanAlcedo.3281]

For the WvW part. 

For zerging, Virtuoso is basically a worse version of base necro. Which is a worse version of Scourge there. 

Can it be played? Sure. 

You still have Focus and really good utilities but your new Aoe dmg skills simply lack the punch needed. 

Necro wells do also good dmg while doing a wide variety of useful effects. 

 

[Ombras.2853]

27 minutes ago, DanAlcedo.3281 said:

For the WvW part. 

For zerging, Virtuoso is basically a worse version of base necro. Which is a worse version of Scourge there. 

Can it be played? Sure. 

You still have Focus and really good utilities but your new Aoe dmg skills simply lack the punch needed. 

Necro wells do also good dmg while doing a wide variety of useful effects. 

 

Pretty much.

In zerging you basically have an offensive boonstrip dps + cc + focus pull. Focus pull is great, the rest is okay-ish, not terrible, but it’s simply inferior to what Scourge brings to the table.