Why did you stop tagging up? [Old school commander thread]

[Lord Meowalot.3690]

Not a commander but when I came back to the game a year ago after a 5-6 year break and entered wvw, I felt like I was in the twilight zone. People used to BEG for parties and comms details. Now I join squads where 50-75% of the friendlies are out of squad and clouding around the tag, doing their own thing. I don't understand it. There are even support players who don't join squad and just cloud around. Like why?

[Xenesis.6389]

I don't understand people that won't do the most basic of things.

You run through an objective then pick up supply.

You see siege drop then use supply to build it.

You see a group stealth pushing, then don't run on them with your f'ing mount, if you don't have stealth don't run on them, wait and then join when the battle starts, your mount even has 2 dashes to help with that.

Don't use mini pets, they don't stealth.

If you can't be bothered to do these simple things you have no right to complain about anyone else much less a commander that's putting up a tag to help your side.

If the commander is not up to your "standards" then tag up yourself, or don't run with them.

It's pretty simple.

Now for commanders, learn to not put your group in awkward spots.

Like if you're in a three way fight, obviously don't put yourself in the middle of the other two.

Manage what your group can handle, if you're fighting some boon guild, don't rush your pugs into them head on and get one pushed, no one wants to follow that.

Don't expect not to get criticism if you keep doing the same mistake over and over again.

If you won't learn the lessons to get better, why would you expect the average pug following you would?

🤷‍♂️

[Xenesis.6389]

1 hour ago, lordmeowalot.8135 said:

Not a commander but when I came back to the game a year ago after a 5-6 year break and entered wvw, I felt like I was in the twilight zone. People used to BEG for parties and comms details. Now I join squads where 50-75% of the friendlies are out of squad and clouding around the tag, doing their own thing. I don't understand it. There are even support players who don't join squad and just cloud around. Like why?

I'm one of these players, and I'll tell you why.

1. I don't like when people move my target around, I have it on the commander to see them clearly because the tags tends to get buried in names, and no I will not use the abbreviated names.

2. I position myself well, but that doesn't always mesh with what the commander wants, I trust my instincts over theirs sorry, but most times it's saved me from really bad spots, I particularly don't like standing in red rings which some of them tend to like too much. I know the flow of battle most times, and I tend to hang out at the side/back of the enemy to harass or distract.

3. I do my own thing, on support I'm usually trying to res our downs, that means there's times I'm not on tag soaking up damage with everyone else, one time I was in a squad and someone question asked what I was doing, probably mad I wasn't pocket healing them, that was enough for me to run by myself, you can get my heals and boons and cleanses whenever I give it to you, but I'm not going to be some stat on a meter. On my mesmer I'm busy pulling people off walls, and I double grav well and null field in the big fights for the interrupt and strips. If you need more bodies for target soak then recruit more rise reapers.

4. I bet a lot of specs like rangers or thieves are not welcomed in groups so they don't bother to ask anymore.

5. Spent a few years on mag clouding, we don't need no stinkin tag, you learn to run on your own. I can roam havoc zerg at any time at the flip of a hat. I'll run with you, I'll support you, but I don't need to be another boon zombie in your squad.

Edited May 1, 2022 by Xenesis.6389

[enkidu.5937]

8 hours ago, lordmeowalot.8135 said:

Now I join squads where 50-75% of the friendlies are out of squad and clouding around the tag, doing their own thing. I don't understand it. There are even support players who don't join squad and just cloud around. Like why?

They are not allowed to join the squad. Some are not on voice chat, some are not on cookie cutter builds, some do not stack on tag. They want coordinated fighting, and they have it. No need to be on voice, cookie cutters, or on tag all the time to have coordinated fights.

 

But most coms want kind-of multiboxing with real players, control and micromanagement via voice chat. Lots of coms even say that they don’t care who wins the match or the fight. They just want to command ppl, and that’s why everyone is being forced to be on voice, on cookie cutters, and on tag.

 

Getting multi-boxed by a com in a boon ball can be fun ofc . But it just kills most of the few content. I would have quit already after 1 year or 2, if I wouldn’t have continously theorycrafted my own builds, and enjoyed semi-chaotic semi-organized large scale fights where I have to decide where to move and what skills to use.

[Lord Meowalot.3690]

I'm not talking about fight guilds running private - obviously pugs are not allowed to join their squad. I'm talking about open tags who try to rally pugs to have some action, whether pugmanders or guilds that like to run open.

 

I am sure clouders who don't join squad or comms yet hang around the tag have their own reasons for doing so but is there any point if your side wipes each fight? Imagine you are on the pug tag's side, unable to push together to break enemy groups since majority of greenies squirrel around and get mowed down in chunks off tag. I've seen many pug tags just tag down in situations like this because it's just pointless. Good for you if somehow your server is always full of veterans. Otherwise it's not coordinated fights - just disorganized wipes.

Edited May 1, 2022 by lordmeowalot.8135

[ArchonWing.9480]

The problem is when you have enemy "fight" guilds combine together with pugs to form a map queue. In those cases, it is very hard to cloud them; you are just picking off the pugs that fall behind and not really hurting the main group. And even if you do, they get auto ressed like 5x or something. You have to try, and they can just faceroll their keyboards as long as the support isn't afk.

In these cases, it's just easier for a commander to ask that people comp up to adequately fight such a thing (or just switch maps). It's just a super lame situation overall and often not worth the effort. I mean you're trying to lead pugs against an organized group that might actually outnumber you but they're playing super safe pirate ship and hoping you push or they wait for stealth.

Also clouding becomes somewhat ineffective in certain structures like inner hills where there is basically nowhere to go and they can just spam aoes in the choke or something. Though I guess people would just ignore this and go somewhere else.

It is still possible, but then it comes to a matter of attrition where you bore the enemy group by simply hanging back and minimize the damage their bombs do by simply disengaging. But that's really boring and inefficient.

Also in reality I don't care what you bring, but if you don't bring a build that can soak up incidental damage or you're doing stuff like projectiles that might actually HELP the enemy group, then get out. Of course if you bring something high impact like a suicidal Catalyst that could sacrifice themselves for the greater good, that's different.

Like sometimes I see engis kill themselves with mortar kit. They just literally stand there and auto themselves to death. Even in 1v1s. Maybe they're just bots, but I think bots are a bit better than that.

Edited May 1, 2022 by ArchonWing.9480

[Some Call Me Tim.2319]

I don’t play much anymore.  For a few years I used to run a pug tag.  I didn’t worry too much about the fights since I’m not a fight commander.  I mostly ppt tagged for wxp for the folks.   I did expect people to at least stay on tag if in squad and would kick anyone who would not stay in tag.  If people complained it was easy to remove from squad and/ or block.  I have a thick skin so I really don’t care about the whiners. 

 

I might get into it again some day.   Not in a hurry though. 

[Svarty.8019]

Let me answer this question with the elephant in the room:

 

• Huge groups can do whatever they like with impunity,
• Small groups take huge risks and are easily clouded to death.

 

That's it. WvW is too difficult for small groups and too easy for large (50+) groups.

 

Reducing the squad cap to 25 might help destroy the large groups, but AT THE SAME TIME, the other problem must be addressed where small groups can't be effective. I don't know how that can be achieved but it's probably got something to do with nerfing conditions.

 

For clarity: All these confused faces are clearly people who haven't logged in for at least three years. All them inactive forumgoers ><

Edited May 2, 2022 by Svarty.8019
NOTHING WILL BE DONE

[moutzaheadin.4029]

I’ve tagged for maguuma over the years. I just don’t care anymore. I play for my fun not yours.

 

your pal obs

Edited May 2, 2022 by moutzaheadin.4029

[Twilightzone.7452]

To be honest, tagging was fun and was a way to talk and get to know people when I was new on the server. Had the fun with people but eventually wanted to form a guild with people that didn't mind the command style of staying in the red for too long or didn't complain about a wipe few times in the row to improve.

Now after one wipe, people just leave or its  just full of back seat commanding that got boring really quick.

 

Most the time public tag only to defend a keep when people on lord or to fight that one guild group that lost after a few wins and the nut hug begins. Granted better off making friends with other fight guilds on the server and double team it then relying on pug tagging cause just know they wont push in and leave you hanging.

[Rosiep.9128]

I find that a lot of the pug commanders I run into tend to give up because they just can't get the numbers to join them. A night or so ago I joined a commander squad and the squad was fairly large. At first it was fine, we just ran around doing camps and towers, poking keeps, but then suddenly the enemy team just knew where we were at all times. It wasn't a scout, it was actually one single spy account that was in the zerg and following us between BLs. Sufficed to say, after half an hour of getting quite literally farmed by a giant blob who always knew where we were going, the zerg quickly lost steam as people became demoralised and logged off. 

 

This isn't as much of a problem for a voice comm but it can still happen to them. Between this, being held to high standards by people who expect an easy ride, the frustration of trying to bring pugs against heavily organised and micromanaged boon blobs and not to mention losing half your zerg responding to an emergency waypoint or switching BLs because there's zerg vs zerg open field fights happening on the same BL it's no wonder the pugmanders have given up. 

 

Solutions:

 

- Make WvW level 80 and therefore more inconvenient for spies.

- Make Obsidian Sanctum the go to place for GVG action with rewards tailored to zerg vs zerg action.

- ???

 

It's generally hard to solve boonblobs as they're fun for people who enjoy them and shouldn't be completely invalidated so I don't know how to solve the problem that pugmanders face when they can't just cloud a boon blob with superior numbers.

Edited May 3, 2022 by Rosiep.9128

[Xenesis.6389]

You guys realize even if you put the minimum to 80 there will still be spy accounts, because 20 extra levels ain't nothing, it's a one time thing to level for the account.

 

The same goes for squad restrictions to 25, that does nothing to those blobs, as long as everyone can see the tag they're good to go, because organized groups that size are organized to run what they need per group anyways, not per squad.

 

The biggest restriction they could put in place is don't let ftp accounts into wvw, only paid accounts. Can't imagine there's a lot of ftp accounts in there anyways because pretty much everyone you see in wvw has the mount. They could try limiting boon sharing to groups only, and not overflow to nearby squad or pugs, but doubt that would do much, it would also require a separate change to squads from pve, which I don't think they want to do.

[Zauriel Mooncat.4968]

On 4/28/2022 at 5:40 PM, Threather.9354 said:

Well, it isn't a secret that lack of open tags has gotten worse and worse over time. There are players and plenty of people that used to tag up on voice around.

 

Just wondering why did you personally stop to tag up in public?

 

Fear

I used to tag up for events and whenever there was a fail I would get even death treats on my mail. Granted, I know these are just internet things I dont believe I would be in any actual danger, but emotionally I just felt worse every time, to a point I simply stopped tagging up. 

I did tagged one last time for Drizzle and wanted to give as much info but always feels like no one is listening to you and previous experiences would give me a massive anxiety attack. 

 

Edited May 3, 2022 by Zauriel Mooncat.4968

[DanAlcedo.3281]

23 hours ago, Svarty.8019 said:

Let me answer this question with the elephant in the room:

 

• Huge groups can do whatever they like with impunity,
• Small groups take huge risks and are easily clouded to death.

 

That's it. WvW is too difficult for small groups and too easy for large (50+) groups.

 

Reducing the squad cap to 25 might help destroy the large groups, but AT THE SAME TIME, the other problem must be addressed where small groups can't be effective. I don't know how that can be achieved but it's probably got something to do with nerfing conditions.

 

For clarity: All these confused faces are clearly people who haven't logged in for at least three years. All them inactive forumgoers ><

I agree with you that big zergs are a problem, but changing the squad size would not reduce blobing. 

It would only annoy people and require bigger zergs to either have 2 tags or just proceed as normal. 

I'm actually on the side of increasing the size of squads to 80.

Again, it would not make zergs stronger but reduces the amount of people who feel left out while zerging. 

People past the 50 still run with the zerg and do everything like the would be part of the squad anyway. Atleast let them feel like they are part of the community. 

 

 

[Iceman.4509]

I stopped when my 100 man squad defeated every guild on eu. I basically conquered the game mode 

[River.2160]

On 4/28/2022 at 11:09 PM, DanAlcedo.3281 said:

I'm not a Com myself but I have known alot over the years.  It basically goes like this. 

 

Not well known name => less pug participants => no chance against blobs => lots and lots of crying and kitten talking from pugs how bad the commander is. => lots of toxicity => commander has no good time => he stops. 

 

Basically, massive toxicity against Tags that don't have a well known name. 

Pugs want either the guy that gets 80 people on tag + big q 5min after he tags up or no one. 

 

 

 

100% This!

 

After my guild rally the other night. I decided to go help defend bay and we had a small guild tagged up struggling to fight the 50 man group, just constantly getting one-pushed. Pugs, one in particular, outside their group saying in team chat "can we get someone other than x guild to come to the BL". This guy was on his alt, on a useless class against a 50 man comped squad. Stop putting down tags who are trying to help and stop demoralizing your team mates.

 

[Some Call Me Tim.2319]

…. hmmm. was gonna put something here but changed my mind.  So here it’s not

Edited May 3, 2022 by Some Call Me Tim.2319

[Forgotten Legend.9281]

i kinda never tagged in WvW because of my old PC that had crash issues: it would just randomly shutoff several times during a 2-3 hour play session. the new PC doesn't have that problem, but i rarely need to tag up because i run with guildmates pretty much all the time. whether it's a pre-daily-reset guild, the 3-4 times a week, after reset guild, or the Aussie time slot-folks i run with. a lot of times, nobody tags and we just have fun. sometimes i run in 40+ squads, sometimes in a small group of 2 or 3.

[Justine.6351]

Able Sentry has to be the best pugmander currently. He knows what the people want. If he quits then wvw is truly dead.

[souleeter.5129]

Remove boons.

[DanAlcedo.3281]

On 5/3/2022 at 6:45 PM, Thairyn.6821 said:

100% This!

 

After my guild rally the other night. I decided to go help defend bay and we had a small guild tagged up struggling to fight the 50 man group, just constantly getting one-pushed. Pugs, one in particular, outside their group saying in team chat "can we get someone other than x guild to come to the BL". This guy was on his alt, on a useless class against a 50 man comped squad. Stop putting down tags who are trying to help and stop demoralizing your team mates.

 

Same yesterday. 

New Commander eager to learn. 

15 Queue on EBG, 20 man on tag and he has to fight two 50 man zergs coming from both sides for 2 hours. 

Massiv QQ from the roamers that he is useless despite the fact he actually managed quite well. 

Meanwhile, the people who QQ are hunting 4 dudes with 15 people, manage to loose the fight and basically get trolled for an hour. 

Always hard for new coms. 

Thats why mental support is super important sometimes. It helps. 

[babana.7521]

I personally wish some tag would stop tagging. lol

[Morden Kain.3489]

6 hours ago, babana.7521 said:

I personally wish some tag would stop tagging. lol

Yep, there was one that would pop in from PvE with their tag on.  No one would follow them, and said person would sit at spawn or the keep with their tag on.  Some people would pop into WvW, see the tag and lolly gag around the non-responsive tag.  After waiting 2-3 mins, people started leaving them where they were.  Got so bad, I think the person stopped tagging and coming into WvW completely.

The irony came when that same commander popped in with their tag up and asked if there were any commanders on.