Why did you stop tagging up? [Old school commander thread]

[Riba.3271]

Well, it isn't a secret that lack of open tags has gotten worse and worse over time. There are players and plenty of people that used to tag up on voice around.

 

Just wondering why did you personally stop to tag up in public?

[RisenHowl.2419]

because pugs don't listen when you take the time to type out 'stay on pin, don't push past pin'

[subversiontwo.7501]

What Risen is saying may be one end result of things.

However, I think it boils down to one of two reasons:

1) Those players have quit

2) There is no ambition to build anything. What is still done is done on routine. What isn't done anymore is due to the routine. Leading hinges on people letting themselves be lead (as Risen points out). Letting oneself be lead hinges on organisation and learning. Organisation and learning hinges on access to players and recruitment. Players and recruitment hinges on balance, servers being open and links. Fundamental day1 issues with balance, servers and links are what World Restructuring and Alliances look to fix. Until they come we wait for them to come and our routine is to wait with little ambition or reason to build or organise anything. We are aware of this. ArenaNet are aware of this. They do not however see it fit to allocate sufficient funds and resources for the matter to be expedited and resolved in a timely fashion. Not in the past. Not in the present.

Edited April 28, 2022 by subversiontwo.7501

[Xenesis.6389]

53 minutes ago, RisenHowl.2419 said:

because pugs don't listen when you take the time to type out 'stay on pin, don't push past pin'

That's what happens when don't offer the feet pics..

[DanAlcedo.3281]

I'm not a Com myself but I have known alot over the years.  It basically goes like this. 

 

Not well known name => less pug participants => no chance against blobs => lots and lots of crying and kitten talking from pugs how bad the commander is. => lots of toxicity => commander has no good time => he stops. 

 

Basically, massive toxicity against Tags that don't have a well known name. 

Pugs want either the guy that gets 80 people on tag + big q 5min after he tags up or no one. 

 

 

 

[enkidu.5937]

“Take one of these cookie cutters, stack on tag, move as the com tells you, use skills as the com tells you, double dodge left, guards F3 etc. . . . “

When ppl get micromanaged all the time, they turn into voice-controlled brain-afk bots and:

(A) they leave because of boredom

(B) they get worse in fighting with every brain cell that they lose

(C) they like it, they improve, and end up in private guild raids, because that’s the only way left where they can still improve

 

Finally, (A) and (C) are gone, and only (B) remains in a mainly brain-afk blob show. Thats just the logical development of overcoordination and micromanaged botting. 😏

[Dawdler.8521]

6 hours ago, DanAlcedo.3281 said:

I'm not a Com myself but I have known alot over the years.  It basically goes like this. 

 

Not well known name => less pug participants => no chance against blobs => lots and lots of crying and kitten talking from pugs how bad the commander is. => lots of toxicity => commander has no good time => he stops. 

 

Basically, massive toxicity against Tags that don't have a well known name. 

Pugs want either the guy that gets 80 people on tag + big q 5min after he tags up or no one. 

 

 

 

Lets not even mention the audacity of lesser known commanders thats been tagged for hours still being tagged when a well known commander enter the border on his throne carried by firebrands while scrappers throw flowers in front. How dare this runt be tagged on the border?!

Edited April 29, 2022 by Dawdler.8521

[DanAlcedo.3281]

8 minutes ago, Dawdler.8521 said:

Lets not even mention the audacity of lesser known commanders thats been tagged for hours still being tagged when a well known commander enter the border on his throne carried by firebrands while scrappers throw flowers in front. How dare this runt be tagged on the border?!

No joke. I actually wanted to put this also in the post. 

It's so humiliating when a guy tries hard for hours to get stuff done, only for some well known community figure to steal the map without saying a word. 

 

[Abyssisis.3971]

Certain servers using alt/spy accounts to follow tag movements.

[Mabi black.1824]

3 hours ago, Dawdler.8521 said:

Lets not even mention the audacity of lesser known commanders thats been tagged for hours still being tagged when a well known commander enter the border on his throne carried by firebrands while scrappers throw flowers in front. How dare this runt be tagged on the border?!

this is not always true. I personally often put the tag, but as soon as I see another tag (especially if new) I immediately step aside and give it all the support I can. initiatives of new tags should always be supported in my opinion.

even better I could open it and stay by his side, if this gives him some more players, so that he can learn some strategy in difficult moments. I myself learned to use the tag alongside another tag. 2 tags on the map I find fun and informative. the maximum is when the two tags know what to do and move with coordination.

[Chaba.5410]

I knew an old pub tag who quit doing it because he got tired of winning fights by numbers.  W-keying gets boring in that there's little challenge.

Edited April 29, 2022 by Chaba.5410

[Morden Kain.3489]

This...

12 hours ago, DanAlcedo.3281 said:

Not well known name => less pug participants => no chance against blobs => lots and lots of crying and kitten talking from pugs how bad the commander is. => lots of toxicity => commander has no good time => he stops.

and this...

6 hours ago, Dawdler.8521 said:

Lets not even mention the audacity of lesser known commanders thats been tagged for hours still being tagged when a well known commander enter the border on his throne carried by firebrands while scrappers throw flowers in front. How dare this runt be tagged on the border?!

These are the reason I no longer even want to tag up.  Yes, Commanders should be able to take some salt, however when it is constant (and you are taking/defending objectives), it gets old.  There is also one bit that was missed... Well known commander comes on, goes a different direction from what is trying to be defended, to do an open field fight some where else on the map, and we lose the objective.  Seen this even happen with a keep/garri being defended with few people vs 25+, the commander wandered off to an open area with their zerg that popped the queue.

[Mabi black.1824]

24 minutes ago, Morden Kain.3489 said:

These are the reason I no longer even want to tag up.

he is right in saying that you have to learn to let the salt of others slip , it is normal, but many will have appreciated you and will not have wasted time writing it to you , this is also normal.

you are wrong when judging another tag, do not give too much weight to what other tags do, focus and build your own tag. each tag will have a different style of organizing your game, this is also the beauty.

I hope you change your mind and go back to using your tag, you will be appreciated for sure.

[ArchonWing.9480]

I only used to tag for borderland defense a long time ago, but people don't care anymore or just won't put the effort to actually seriously fight so no point.

The problem with being a tag (especially if you're the only tag) is that many people are just incapable of any initiative of their own and expect you to do everything across all 4 maps. It's just like, you can't be everywhere at once, and then you have people that can't hold their own. Like if it's 2 of you defending a tower against 4 people; you should be able to fend them off for a while by using siege or something but no, towers flip with like full supply and tactivators not pulled. It's like "what the hell are you even  doing?"

Some hosts seem especially bad because nobody can even take  a unupgraded camp on their own.  My server isn't exactly much better and has probably driven off many commanders for sake of being too needy.

Too many people treat squads like some kind of 24/7 hotline where you can call at any time to karma train or do wipe their kitten or something. I expect new players to struggle yes, but when I see the same people failing in the same way for like years, it's just like "well, why even bother?".

 

And that's why people go private instead.

As a side note, most people should just use bunker stats. The amount of people that spontaneously go down to like anything is pretty discouraging as well. If you're regularly going down to NPCs when in a zerg, you have to reconsider your build.

Also, for some reason people just stand there during a fight. Like they're not CC'd or whatever. They'll be plinking away at point blank when their face is being beaten down and they're at 10%. I mean I understand dodging is hard and stuff but....

Finally, squirreling. Stop. Again, if it's your first month playing WvW, sure, you may not understand that that hypermobile roamer is just trying to lead you off and you will get killed by 5-6 others that are waiting in plain sight to kill you, but when you do this for for like 7 years? Fool me once. Shame on you. Fool me for the 1000th time, well....

Edited April 29, 2022 by ArchonWing.9480

[Xenesis.6389]

30 minutes ago, ArchonWing.9480 said:

As a side note, most people should just use bunker stats.

Also, for some reason people just stand there during a fight.

Wouldn't that just encourage them keep standing around 🤭

It's amazing like every day still run into a one or two people that just stand in the red rings pewpewing, I especially love it when it's rangers and they don't bother to reposition with reflect sitting in their faces. I also get a good daily laugh sitting on my mount near a wall area that I know will be trouble, yet 3-5 people still manage to get pulled and bombed on, you'd think after seeing this happen multiple times people would smarten up.

[ArchonWing.9480]

18 minutes ago, Xenesis.6389 said:

Wouldn't that just encourage them keep standing around

Yea but at least it'll take longer for them to rally the enemy. Or for you to decide it's time to leave (maybe you'll all survive) xD

idk I feel they would at least enjoy the game more if they weren't on the floor after 5s. Either that or send them Fire Salsa.

Edited April 29, 2022 by ArchonWing.9480

[grave of hearts.7830]

Backseat yelling from spies stirring drama.

Too many spies calling in queues on you.

Constant sabotage.

Too many lazies expecting to be spoonfed profit without working for it.

Tag watchers.

No progression as a commander to encourage sticking with it.

And at some point it became a job that doesnt pay for the time invested,i was doing 20 hours daily for 6 months straight and didnt hear a thanks.

Basically it all boils down to anet's decision to go f2p,with p2p a spy had to cough 60 bucks for each failure and now with the f2p model the spies are admiting it openly without any risk since they will just create another account if they get banned.

[DeceiverX.8361]

On 4/28/2022 at 11:09 PM, DanAlcedo.3281 said:

I'm not a Com myself but I have known alot over the years.  It basically goes like this. 

 

Not well known name => less pug participants => no chance against blobs => lots and lots of crying and kitten talking from pugs how bad the commander is. => lots of toxicity => commander has no good time => he stops. 

 

Basically, massive toxicity against Tags that don't have a well known name. 

Pugs want either the guy that gets 80 people on tag + big q 5min after he tags up or no one. 

 

 

 

It's why I stopped.  And frankly, I didn't ever even want to be a primary tag.  Just custodial fights and minor sieges were good enough.

But it's also the state of the game.  There is ONE way to play organized, which is boonball megazerg; everything else just cannot fight it, no matter the tactics employed.  Uniqueness of strategy and buildcraft are just... dead.  You can no longer depend on small skillgroups taking objectives with populations dispenses all over the map, including from enemies, or be that distraction yourself.  You can no longer build some esteem and momentum by taking some high-value enemy towers or capturing major objectives with only a handful of people while the enemy is distracted or unaware of your presence.  People start following when wherever you are starts turning your side's colors.  But actually turning the map your color is insanely difficult to do today without massive playercounts.  And it has nothing to do with siege being strong for defense or whatever.  It's just how fast players can defensively respond and keep the sustain going.

You can't flip anything in modern WvW without huge numbers. And you can't get fights of any scale for when you have smaller numbers to keep people engaged.  It's either PvE camps where good fighters will just leave, AFK in keep and watch a countless stream of people join and then leave because they want some action, or deploy small and then get rolled by a zerg 10x your size, over and over and over.  Gone are days of the 10v10 for small guild towers at Anz and WC and DG.  Gone is warding off a havoc group picking a fight trying to limit test and up-trade their numbers.  

WvW is no longer a real battlegrounds with lots of chaos and limited resources.  Where you have to be on edge because you might get picked off from the pack or supply lines cut or whatever.  Where the only ktraining that happens is off-hours high-to-mid-tiers.  It's the only way people now play.  It feels closer to open world PvE with the constant rotation of "Bag Farm heavily-favored combat scenario with AoE bombs -> Mount up -> Run to new location -> Repeat."

It's really just not fun anymore to be tagging or joined to a tag that doesn't already run 30 people deep.  Because there's honestly just nothing else to do aside from PvE camps and a few towers on red BL.

And spies have overrun everything with how there's no cost to do so anymore, just in case.

Edited April 30, 2022 by DeceiverX.8361

[bigmouse.2163]

I commanded some on my old account. Now I have a tag but I only use it to show people where I am, like if my mesmer is inside a keep or something.

One of the most frustrating things for me, that I see all the time, is building not picking up/building siege. You can take a camp, and you see that your squad isn't full of supply, and the camp has like 70 supply left in it, and no one will pick it up until you've asked them like 4-5 times.

Same with building siege. I see many of the same players in multiple groups, so I know they're not new or anything. I know they know that you have to build siege to take towers and keeps and stuff. Put you can put a siege site right in front of a group of like 15 players and only 2-3 will actually build without being repeatedly asked. And this is building siege! It's literally pressing one button! At times like that you realize how little control you actually have.

Edited April 30, 2022 by bigmouse.2163

[Santo.2419]

22 hours ago, grave of hearts.7830 said:

No progression as a commander to encourage sticking with it.

 

I don't TAG, but I do hope this changes to make it somehow more rewarding.

[Morden Kain.3489]

1 hour ago, Santo.2419 said:

 

I don't TAG, but I do hope this changes to make it somehow more rewarding.

It kind of is, as an open tag with 5 people, you get an extra pip.  If you have 10+ people in the squad, you get 3 extra pips.  That is about it for "rewarding".
https://wiki.guildwars2.com/wiki/Skirmish_reward_track

[Strider Pj.2193]

1 hour ago, Morden Kain.3489 said:

It kind of is, as an open tag with 5 people, you get an extra pip.  If you have 10+ people in the squad, you get 3 extra pips.  That is about it for "rewarding".
https://wiki.guildwars2.com/wiki/Skirmish_reward_track

 

2 hours ago, Santo.2419 said:

 

I don't TAG, but I do hope this changes to make it somehow more rewarding.

Most of the commanders I’ve spoken with aren’t looking for rewards.  Most though, could do without the flak they receive when people feel they don’t command like they want them to.

 

Honestly, if you have a problem with the way someone else commands, go elsewhere, or do something else.  They are not present to provide you content.  They CAN provide content, but there is no obligation.  
 

I don’t command, have a tag, and will follow someone as long as we are engaged in activities that I am ok with.  Otherwise, I find something else to do.  

[Firebeard.1746]

I don't play as much these days, but for WvW comming:

1) People don't take your tag seriously 90% of the time unless you're a well-known comm on your server. 

2) It's highly likely no one will care, and you just become a target for anyone who is using a smurf account to watch open tag movements.

3) In the event that despite #1 and #2 you actually start putting a squad together, there's a high chance the people in your squad won't move with you, even if you've exhausted all the targets you can reasonably take and/or defend on your current BL. In fact IIRC, when this happened is was because I was just wantonly inviting people, not because I had an open tag. 

[RisingDaewn.8703]

Obviously, you won't get many followers if you aren't well known and popular just  like many things in life, although i've seen chatmanders get queues faster than any voice tag, who tries to organize things to fight another zerg on a map.

At the same time there is lack of decent tags, who even use voice these days as it is.

Edited April 30, 2022 by CrimsonNeonite.1048

[Svarty.8019]

Disorganised cloudy roamers can defeat any squad I can muster.