How to make Vindicator dodge slightly less trash ... maybe

[iTB.1428]

One of the main problems with Vindi is his dodge mechanic. Although it looks as cool idea the practical side of it's usage is absolutely terrible.
WHY?
Because the whole bloody game is build around dodging. So the cost for having only one dodge and sometimes being forced to waste it for the additional effect instead for dodging is too high.
Another "problem" (depending on how you look at it) is the DURATION. Vindi dodge is 2 sec unlike normal dodge 0.75 sec. 
On one hand you have quite long evade frame but on the other hand you can't do anything while dodging (unlike Mirage) and you are wasting the time - 2 sec is not needed for actual dodge purpose.
Another problem in PvP is the telegraph thanks to which opponent know exactly when you land.

And here comes my PROPOSITION:
Lets make the dodge even longer. Like 3-5 sec. (that is for debate) 
Wait what?
Let me finish.
Pressing the dodge again while dodging (flying) will land you immediately.

Now we are offsetting the cost of having only one dodge with quite long evade frame. But also making it useful in cases where we don't need such long evade.
PvE:
You are not forced to do nothing for 2 sec. and your dmg will get on par with other classes.
PvP/WvW:
You have access to quite long evade frame AND are less predictable.

Does it solve the design problem of the Vindi dodge completely? Probably not. But it may make it slightly less terrible.

[Chaos.7614]

I don't see any way they could make a vindicator one dodge work - the entire game is balanced around players having active mitigation ready at a moment's notice with two dodges. It's even more poor design that they force us to use it for DPS (Leviathan Strength, Death Drop) when the damage could've been baked into other things instead. They ought to just have 0.75s death drops to replace our dodges at 50 endurance each and give us our regular endurance bar.

[Puck.3697]

tbh as far as SPVP Goes:

Bunker vindicator is currently the strongest build in the game, i wouldnt be suprised if we see it get hit in June patch so i wouldnt bank on buffs sadly.

PvE Wise.. yeah the fact it requires to spend its only dodge to maximise DPS is a Whack design.

[Tulkas.2576]

I’d just like to see energy meld off the gcd. 
maybe throw a second charge on it too, so you could actually spam it twice really quickly and do two back to back dodges, but it would be costly and only doable once every 40 seconds. 

[Sereath.1428]

Huh, I kind of like your idea OP.

[Xenesis.6389]

One dodge is a really dumb idea that never should have been a thing. Not when you're playing the entire game 1-80 learning to use 2 dodges as your main defense. They implemented it on mirage because they couldn't be bothered to balance around mirage cloak, but to then go design another spec around it.... after all the complaints mirage had over it.. wtf? It's going to be another nightmare  in balance trying to give them enough defense out of it while trying to use it offensively still. 🙄

[Curennos.9307]

The idea I like the most so far was to just remove Energy Meld and replace it with...the dodge. Put it on a cooldown or something, or some kind of resource bar that's charged up from end gains. So vind will have two normal dodges plus a 'super' dodge on a 10 sec cooldown or something. 

[BALONEYPWNY.9258]

2 hours ago, Curennos.9307 said:

The idea I like the most so far was to just remove Energy Meld and replace it with...the dodge. Put it on a cooldown or something, or some kind of resource bar that's charged up from end gains. So vind will have two normal dodges plus a 'super' dodge on a 10 sec cooldown or something. 

+1, I love this idea.

[Aeolus.3615]

make the doge work like DH  F2 leap but with equivalent evasion frames.

Edited May 4, 2022 by Aeolus.3615

[Paradoxoglanis.1904]

Just give vindicator a normal dodge and delete this awful gimmick.

[Howluffu.7259]

On 5/1/2022 at 7:10 PM, Curennos.9307 said:

The idea I like the most so far was to just remove Energy Meld and replace it with...the dodge. Put it on a cooldown or something, or some kind of resource bar that's charged up from end gains. So vind will have two normal dodges plus a 'super' dodge on a 10 sec cooldown or something. 

 Yes, that should be or even put the jump on the elite skill for each alliance stance so Archemorus has the death drop and the st viktor has the healing one then maybe the third one that extends boons has a major trait to both of the elite jumps to make it more group support, maybe even generating quickness.

Energy Meld is a pointless button only created to "alliviate" the stupid problem they created with the new dodge and should be gone for sure.

For the utilities I would dare to say to put the Spear in the Nomad's Advance slot but with the plottwist that instead of useless torment it pulls the enemy toward us like F1 dh giving Vindicator the CC it lacks and redesign the Urn and put it in Battle Dance place. We already have Shiro and GS3 for the gap closing and disengaging but alliance lack CC and better utility. Also instead of burning Scavenger Burst should put a Fire Field and be a melee cast without the cursor aiming, and the daze should be in the Urn so we have 2 forms of CC 1 each alliance side.

Finally, Redesign the major trait lines to not have to do anything with the jumps except for the Vassals of the Empire that should make the jump elites to also provide the extension of boons, giving boons(quickness inclusive) and chill for a more supporting oriented build in group content.

[Curennos.9307]

1 hour ago, Howluffu.7259 said:

 Yes, that should be or even put the jump on the elite skill for each alliance stance so Archemorus has the death drop and the st viktor has the healing one then maybe the third one that extends boons has a major trait to both of the elite jumps to make it more group support, maybe even generating quickness.

Energy Meld is a pointless button only created to "alliviate" the stupid problem they created with the new dodge and should be gone for sure.

For the utilities I would dare to say to put the Spear in the Nomad's Advance slot but with the plottwist that instead of useless torment it pulls the enemy toward us like F1 dh giving Vindicator the CC it lacks and redesign the Urn and put it in Battle Dance place. We already have Shiro and GS3 for the gap closing and disengaging but alliance lack CC and better utility. Also instead of burning Scavenger Burst should put a Fire Field and be a melee cast without the cursor aiming, and the daze should be in the Urn so we have 2 forms of CC 1 each alliance side.

Finally, Redesign the major trait lines to not have to do anything with the jumps except for the Vassals of the Empire that should make the jump elites to also provide the extension of boons, giving boons(quickness inclusive) and chill for a more supporting oriented build in group content.

This would screw over anyone who didn't run alliance stance, which doesn't seem like very good e-spec design.

 

You're right in that Energy Meld is terrible, but I don't think shoving the dodges into the elite button spot is the way to go. I'd rather the spear get a lil nerf, but also an energy cost reduction so its more feasible to use it alongside something else for CC + burst. Having a CC available on both parts of the alliance stance sounds...overloaded. Maybe the blue skills could have some soft CC, such as cripple, chill, blind, or weakness, but imo having another hard CC there if there's already one (or two, if spear gets a CC + stunbreak remains a daze) on the redside would be too much.

It would be even more helpful if things like Shiro could get unnerfed a little bit and the overloaded skills resulting in the previous nerfs toned down so that there are more options - it'd be nice to actually be able to use jade winds, for example, but it's expensive.

Edited May 3, 2022 by Curennos.9307

[TheeBlackDeath.5692]

How to make Vindicator's dodge less trash=get more endurance recovery

How to make Vindicator's dodge less trash=get sigils of stamina and energy

How to make Vindicator's dodge less trash=know your build

How to make Vindicator's dodge less trash=know when to dodge and when not to

How to make Vindicator's dodge less trash=use it's superior time compared to regular dodge to easily get out of dangerous situations faster and easier while getting buffed for it.

How to make Vindicator's dodge less trash=practice.

 

 

 

Real talk tho, the dodge atm is bugged and you can actually cancel the landing by mistake if you use a skill or something just before you actually land, and you can also get cc'd while in your dodge from some stuff, especially on the last frames like I said previously.

Other than that, not much of a problem.

[Aeolus.3615]

On 5/7/2022 at 8:22 PM, ShadeOfEclipse.8931 said:

How to make Vindicator's dodge less trash=get more endurance recovery

How to make Vindicator's dodge less trash=get sigils of stamina and energy

How to make Vindicator's dodge less trash=know your build

How to make Vindicator's dodge less trash=know when to dodge and when not to

How to make Vindicator's dodge less trash=use it's superior time compared to regular dodge to easily get out of dangerous situations faster and easier while getting buffed for it.

How to make Vindicator's dodge less trash=practice.

 

 

 

Real talk tho, the dodge atm is bugged and you can actually cancel the landing by mistake if you use a skill or something just before you actually land, and you can also get cc'd while in your dodge from some stuff, especially on the last frames like I said previously.

Other than that, not much of a problem.

NURF! :D

Edited May 10, 2022 by Aeolus.3615

[Jthug.9506]

they should increase the radius of all 3 dodges by 180 imo

[mortrialus.3062]

One of my suggestions for mirage back when it got one dodge in PvP was that at the very least it should have it's second bar of Endurance but they start a fight at 50%.

In PvP players at all tier of play give up their first dodge very quickly and then save their second dodge to avoid a key attack.  This is instinctual, because sitting on two full bars of Endurance means that you're wasting all the endurance gains you could be getting, and thus gaining more dodges over the course of a fight is straight up wasted.

If you have a fight that lasts 30 seconds, if you are dodging regularly when you have full endurance you'll do 4 dodges.  If you have a fight that lasts 30 seconds but you're sitting on full endurance the whole time, you'll be able to do 2 dodges. So long term momentum of the fight favors giving up that first dodge fairly easily and carefully using the second dodge when you really need it.

 

But one dodge mirage and vindicator don't get to play like this.  You're in a binary state where you either are completely wasting endurance regeneration or leaving yourself vulnerable with no dodges.

 

Not a fan of one dodge, but if they are going to force it, they should allow you to have a second bar of Endurance but start you at 50% so you can save up for more dodges long term over the course of the fight.

[Curennos.9307]

On 5/13/2022 at 4:02 PM, Jthug.9506 said:

they should increase the radius of all 3 dodges by 180 imo

The heal and boon/chill dodge are already decently large, I think, and I like the current size that makes them feel actually aimed instead of just easily AoEing over everyone without having to worry about positioning. The damaging dodge is smol tho and imo could use a radius buff (alongside some other changes, admittedly). 

[Thon.3780]

I just curious  how much evade time this mechanic give us 

1. is it 2 time compare to normal dodge?

2. Trigger time is only one time or split between up and down?
coz if it give 2 time , it want mechanic split the evade time to jump up and landing so we will really dodge.

 

[Jthug.9506]

On 5/15/2022 at 10:27 PM, Curennos.9307 said:

The heal and boon/chill dodge are already decently large, I think, and I like the current size that makes them feel actually aimed instead of just easily AoEing over everyone without having to worry about positioning. The damaging dodge is smol tho and imo could use a radius buff (alongside some other changes, admittedly). 

I tank with the boon chill dodge and it’s just a bit too small to reliably get boons to my party right now, all three going up by another 180 wouldn’t hurt anyone 

[Lanz.7312]

I'd be fine with it if the class mechanic to give you endurance just restored your bar completely instead of giving you like 80% of a bar. Then you could at least prime another dodge if you're anticipating needing it. 

Otherwise I do like the idea of being able to end it earlier. It was something I was thinking myself a few weeks back, let the player dodge again to land the jump with maybe the damage scaling to how long you're in the air. 

[Zenith.7301]

On 5/26/2022 at 5:17 PM, Lanz.7312 said:

I'd be fine with it if the class mechanic to give you endurance just restored your bar completely instead of giving you like 80% of a bar. Then you could at least prime another dodge if you're anticipating needing it. 

Otherwise I do like the idea of being able to end it earlier. It was something I was thinking myself a few weeks back, let the player dodge again to land the jump with maybe the damage scaling to how long you're in the air. 

 

The F2 is absolute garbage. Costs energy, has a cast time, only restores half the bar. For the purposes of giving you an on demand dodge in time, it not only costs you DPS, but it's not remotely reliable because of the cast time and the fact you already need a half filled endurance bar for it to be useful.

 

On top, vindicator has a trait to improve vigor, yet barely any access to vigor in its kit unless you pick bunker/tank lines in PvE, which kills the spec's only "use" in PvE, it's mediocre, power reaper level damage.

 

But unlike power reaper, which is already kitten in organized PvE, you don't even bring CC worth a kitten, pulls, or boon strip.

Edited May 29, 2022 by Zenith.7301

[Ashantara.8731]

On 5/1/2022 at 1:21 AM, iTB.1428 said:

On one hand you have quite long evade frame but on the other hand you can't do anything while dodging (unlike Mirage) and you are wasting the time - 2 sec is not needed for actual dodge purpose.

Not quite accurate. First off, the dodge itself is a damage skill, and secondly, Vengeful Hammers and other AoE pulsing damage skills do work during those 2 secs.

Edited June 11, 2022 by Ashantara.8731

[Shao.7236]

On 5/28/2022 at 8:35 PM, Zenith.7301 said:

 

The F2 is absolute garbage. Costs energy, has a cast time, only restores half the bar. For the purposes of giving you an on demand dodge in time, it not only costs you DPS, but it's not remotely reliable because of the cast time and the fact you already need a half filled endurance bar for it to be useful.

 

On top, vindicator has a trait to improve vigor, yet barely any access to vigor in its kit unless you pick bunker/tank lines in PvE, which kills the spec's only "use" in PvE, it's mediocre, power reaper level damage.

 

But unlike power reaper, which is already kitten in organized PvE, you don't even bring CC worth a kitten, pulls, or boon strip.

Other than one minor trait in Retribution, Vigor is fairly accessible, also can be extended with Vassals of Empire, you can't expect Anet to allow players running freely with a potential 15k dmg dodge without some trade offs.

 

Not being able to sustain as good with Devastation makes sense and even more so with how the traitline can allow for a lot of extra damage compared the other elites, we're talking another 25% increase.

 

With Vigor you can expect around 50% endurance 2 seconds or so after landing the dodge, having another 50% for 10% energy is quite generous and the cast time itself is almost nothing, there's quickness to make it better if anything. Anet chosed to have the evade at 100% because they want a degree value in the dodge rather than spamming it.

 

Weakness greatly counter Vindicator for that reason, rather than just Vigor you have to use low cost skills to gain endurance too which is a lot more fun and what most players have complained about Revenant, not having anything to press/energy costs too high.