The ultimate proof that Mesmer is NOT fine in PvP

[Obtena.7952]

On 5/25/2022 at 5:52 PM, Waffles.5632 said:

But when you nit pick and grand stand it just makes all your issues fall on deaf ears because you're not being honest, at least not where it counts.

Someone gets it. If people aren't going to be objective with their feedback, it's going to get ignored, even if some of that feedback is relevant and correct. #lostinthenoise

 

Edited June 1, 2022 by Obtena.7952

[Salt Mode.3780]

And there are people making random kitten comments quoting random kitten stuff that is also contributing to #lostinthenoise that shows no relevancy or pertaining to the topic of the thread. 

[Lincolnbeard.1735]

3 hours ago, Salt Mode.3780 said:

Lol chaos traitline vs other class's traitlines...there are soo much other traitlines way stronger then our chaos...

Who the kitten cares if there are stronger traitlines, we're on mesmer forums. 

Chaos and inspi are nothing but toxic garbage designwise. 

[Salt Mode.3780]

4 minutes ago, Lincolnbeard.1735 said:

Who the kitten cares if there are stronger traitlines, we're on mesmer forums. 

Chaos and inspi are nothing but toxic garbage designwise. 

Lol on power build its irrelevant because you lose too much damage for the sustain, on condi perhaps in sPvP but then again ever since they removed burn from staff condi mirage pressure is little to none with enough cleanses.

This is even more true in WvW, a condi mirage running insp and chaos can be ignored because you simply do no damage.

And its always either or, chaos or insp never both.

I dont understand why chaos is soo strong that makes it so broken for people to ask for nerfs esp when you are not running staff. So can anyone explain to me WHY its so broken that it needs nerfs? This also includes inspiration.

Chaos bolsters staff builds while insp is great for condi cleanses that is all both provides.

I always see comments that chaos and insp are kitten or toxic or degen but can anyone explain to me trait by trait how each of them are by any means broken or how about in combination. If you are saying on condi builds then I'm sorry it isn't the traits that makes it broken its because of how tanky condi builds are and this could be said to ANY class.

Edited June 1, 2022 by Salt Mode.3780

[Ombras.2853]

They aren’t. It’s just that lots of people hate condi classes (and specifically Celestial builds). These builds always capitalize on Chaos or Inspi (or even both, yes, there are several Mirage builds using C + I). So, “I hate Celestial” -> “I hate those traits”.

[Salt Mode.3780]

Which is what im saying lol you penalize 2 traitlines because condi can abuse them, then again its condi/celestial that is the issue not the traitline itself.

The redeeming qualities of chaos was long gone when they nerfed PU by 50%, changed how chaotic interruption work.

Bountiful disillusionment is the last remaining trait that can allow Chaos to be used with power builds.

[HowlKamui.5120]

On 5/26/2022 at 7:22 PM, Waffles.5632 said:

 

 Do you even know what a control is?

 

While yes, cupcakes *could* be delicious (not always the case), 1,700 cupcakes from a single source (you making them) is probably not delicious and has a waaaaay larger bias because you remove the randomization aspect totally.

But yeah, good job boosting your ego on cupcakes I guess. You saw the chance to tell people they were good and you took it!

 

I want to emphasize, you spoke with such conviction and confidence, while using the word "probably".

I want to further make it clear as well, that if I wanted an ego boost, I would not be showcasing youtube videos of me playing some niche/meme pvp spec on a 10yr old MMO.

 

It's posts like these, and the others in this thread of similar ilk that need to go, because they offer nothing of value. Even the OP should have been reworded/moved/whatever because they are just parroting information w/o actually offering their own personal experience, and they aren't even reading the info right.

 

To legit make a post, about the one of the top tournaments for pvp, in one of the most broken metas atm, right after a major Xpac with NINE CLASSES ADDED LOL, and right BEFORE a major class balance patch slated for june, and then claim that that is what solo queue pvp is like.

 

Nah.

So far, I am the only one in this entire thread that has actually proved they pvp'd as a mesmer, in the past 2years.

 

Post up or shut up.

 

@Daddy.8125 ^^^ This right here. Any player who focuses on teamwork/map awareness/playing roles in matches ( roamer/support/duelist etc) and general pvp form and etiquette is going to succeed over the long run no matter the class they play.

 

My issues are the over exaggeration of mesmer nerfs, when again, reality is Mirage hasn't been directly touched in over a year. It has been indirectly buffed during this time as other classes have gotten several heavy handed nerfs.

For instance a year ago, DH trapper was higher than Power Mirage tier list wise, now? I would not put DH trapper above Power Mirage, if anything DH is now B tier alongside PMirage hahaha, but yes, just a small example of how direct nerfs to other classes, indirectly cause buffs to the rest. This has to be factored in with every single balance either negative or positive.

 

In this case a control still needs to be random, and for that matter the control for this particular scenario needs to be the performance of *all* classes. Trust me. Yeah I speak with conviction for a reason, and me using probably is right because in probability nothing is certain. 

No need to be mad bro.

Edited June 2, 2022 by HowlKamui.5120

[Lincolnbeard.1735]

 No, chaos and inspi are super skilled traitlines. In fact for you to stay alive when speccing those traitlines is truly difficult. 

Again, just like SA, those thieves are the most skillfull of the bunch!

Seriously get a grip. Every build that uses those traitlines are the most snooze fest to play with and against. 

And yes, there are some Virt power build  that use those and specifically core power shatter can use it as well without hurting damage.  So spare me the "you hating condi" because that's a different problem altogether but yes condi is noob friendly too and celestial shoduld be deleted from wvw just like it was on pvp. 

[Ombras.2853]

I mean, just go playing another game if you have issues with so many things in gw2.

[viquing.8254]

13 hours ago, Lincolnbeard.1735 said:

Who the kitten cares if there are stronger traitlines, we're on mesmer forums. 

Chaos and inspi are nothing but toxic garbage designwise. 

Inspi is dead and chaos is a sustain traitline

Edited June 2, 2022 by viquing.8254

[viquing.8254]

2 hours ago, Lincolnbeard.1735 said:

 No, chaos and inspi are super skilled traitlines. In fact for you to stay alive when speccing those traitlines is truly difficult. 

Again, just like SA, those thieves are the most skillfull of the bunch!

Seriously get a grip. Every build that uses those traitlines are the most snooze fest to play with and against. 

And yes, there are some Virt power build  that use those and specifically core power shatter can use it as well without hurting damage.  So spare me the "you hating condi" because that's a different problem altogether but yes condi is noob friendly too and celestial shoduld be deleted from wvw just like it was on pvp. 

The core with chaos is far away from the core with illu regarding output.

If someone chose a sustain traitline while losing damage explain to me how it is toxic as there is the counterpart please.

[Lincolnbeard.1735]

2 hours ago, viquing.8254 said:

The core with chaos is far away from the core with illu regarding output.

If someone chose a sustain traitline while losing damage explain to me how it is toxic as there is the counterpart please.

No one says you've to spec dom/duel, you can choose 2 from the 3.

But with missing out illu you don't lose that huge amount of damage, in fact the damage is more than ok with just dom/duel. 

And inspi is still perfectly viable, again, plenty of builds use it. 

@Ombras.2853and why don't you go play other game if you're so scared of your garbage celestial build getting nerfed? 

[Dr Meta.3158]

Mesmers are strong, they're just bad for conquest. Their niche is FFA arena dueling.

[semak.7481]

15 minutes ago, Metaologist.2487 said:

Mesmers are strong, they're just bad for conquest. Their niche is FFA arena dueling.

Captain obvious reminds you, pvp is the conquest. FFA is like ambient creature killng in pve while being naked and claim the build is raid ready

That meme about buzz and no signs of intelligent life on this forum is so true

[Salt Mode.3780]

5 hours ago, Lincolnbeard.1735 said:

 No, chaos and inspi are super skilled traitlines. In fact for you to stay alive when speccing those traitlines is truly difficult. 

Again, just like SA, those thieves are the most skillfull of the bunch!

Seriously get a grip. Every build that uses those traitlines are the most snooze fest to play with and against. 

And yes, there are some Virt power build  that use those and specifically core power shatter can use it as well without hurting damage.  So spare me the "you hating condi" because that's a different problem altogether but yes condi is noob friendly too and celestial shoduld be deleted from wvw just like it was on pvp. 

Again I ask and I'm not saying you are wrong I'm saying in particular how are those 2 traits OP? Which traits make those trait lines so op that it requires nerfs.

SA is another topic of its own because it is a combination of both Insp and Chaos trait line combined. Insp is condi cleanse + heal whereas Chaos is damage mitigation in which SA offers both.

What I don't understand is people pick one or the other never both, even condi mirage wouldnt pick both because they would require dueling to generate enough clones now that they nerfed iwarlock clone generation. 

Again why is it op, which specific traits make it so op and broken that it requires nerfs. The way I see it both trait lines are shells of their former glory.

[Ombras.2853]

4 hours ago, Lincolnbeard.1735 said:

 

@Ombras.2853and why don't you go play other game if you're so scared of your garbage celestial build getting nerfed? 

And why would I? I play pretty much all variations of the same class. I probably use power more than condi as well. And I don’t see why anybody should justify himself even if he was only playing “garbage celestial builds”.

On the other hand, plenty of people (like you) like to spit upon everything even remotely related to those builds, just because… because? If you want to discuss Cele nerf (and we can, ofc we can, there are reasons to) behave like a mature person instead of going “lol thiz sheet, delete plz”.

[viquing.8254]

Inspi isn't a traitline it's a single trait choice.

You go signet you have to take inspi that's the only reason.

And I didn't met signet mesmer in PvP since EoD came out.

With shatter cd reduced and the 25% crit you lose much pressure and timing dropping illu for chaos.

[FarmBotXD.1430]

1. 90% of mesmer mains quit or rerolled.
2 class is so dog kitten that its only defended by 1 hardstuck gold player.
3 after playing mesmer for several thousand matches, I made ranger and despite never playing it even in pve, my winrate was higher then on mesmer ( i was even playing troll builds, and ranger isnt even good )

4 class representation in higher tier of play can be counted on one hand
5 rip is abusing matchmaking to kitten and back, guy duo-queues during night times to stomp gold players, when you meet him during normal queues you will quickly realise he is just an average play player
6 devs hate mesmer and dont want it to be viable in pvp, only as a niche troll-pick
7 the only time mesmer works in pvp is due to other players legit never playing against mesmer as the class is this bad

[xXxNikiGoesWildxXx.3678]

Plat2 mesmer here(top50 Eu).

Mesmer is not that weak. It is that you have to play very well to make it very good. I will point direct example of designs of virtuoso and mirage as that dodge and block timing is very important to be used both offensively and defensively or else if you waste it you can easily go into downstate and do bad trade. Class is very fragile as light armor and low health so it is a must investing into defensive stats to get that extra times/chances to make some another move. 

However here is why both mirage and virtuoso can be very strong. Simply mirage can evade while under cc and evasion is best damage mitigation in game. Virtuoso however has many blocks which is again another very good damage mitigation tool. You can fully deny enemy to touch you if played perfectly. On top of all of it there is stealth. 

I pointed here on mesmer fragility and defensive options as i think these makes difference between useful mesmer or perma dead mesmer in pvp. I think it is pointless to talk about its insane offensive tools like confusion and power bursts and boon removals. 

Chrono is good example of how offense=best defense which is cc and pressure spam. There is that chrono build which terrorhuz(player) and some other people play. It is based on steroid alacrity uptime and stun/daze durations. So with this build you end up perma locking someone from ever dpsing you. 

Overall mesmer is not bad, it takes time to master it. Beauty of mesmer is that it fits multirole so again you just need to die less and adapt depending on situation.

[Salt Mode.3780]

I never understood the mentality of people, if you are already doing good on mesmer congrats, but when others are asking for fixes changes and buffs they are always the first to come to shoot down any suggestion because "mesmer is already good" mentality.

Rankings in sPvP dont even matter, its more on who has the better team/team comp rather then my class is carrying the game. This is why I prefer roaming dueling in WvW to get a better grip of fights because in sPvP your build and mentality is on node capture and points rather then going all out to fight. This is also another reason why GW2 failed so hard at esports scene because no one wants to be watching node capture style gameplay. 

Even GvG would be more interesting then sPvP gameplay. There is a reason why there is no viewership at all.

[viquing.8254]

@Svez Poizon XD.5268

Short version :

Mesmer isn't good in PvP :

Power mirage are freekill after they burn their one evade.

Condi mirage take age to do some output.

Virtuoso has been given cheesy temporisation but even with this cheese, it didn't work because it has game design flaws.

Core and chrono are just burst or die builds. Who lose as soon as a roamer with enough brain to evade the burst focus them.

It's not a "you have to play it very well" but a "people in front of you have to play very bad" for you to perform.

 

Detailled version :

- Simply mirage can evade while under cc : I will always wait for the mirage to burn his evade before bursting.

- Virtuoso however has many blocks : virtuoso has only many blocks as his output is 100 km tell. And even with his many block I can pressure it enough on core to make it leave point. Now what is the role of virtuoso ? Point holding : it can't stay on point versus other. Damage from range : lol. Damage from melee : no mobility. Trolling noob 2v1 for age around a point : yeas but it only work versus noobs and there is better classes to do it.

- Stealth is on every mesmer builds apart signet and is inaccurate to point holding.

- I think it is pointless to talk about its insane offensive tools like confusion :

-- You talk about me facetanking virtuoso burst then mantra of resolution ?

-- Power bursts : that's the only thing left IMO on core builds. But it rarely come with confusion packaged in it.

-- Boon removals : ? Which build are we talking about ? The one from misha who is practicaly all build around this and who work only with high teamplay to capitalise the removal ?

- cc and pressure spam from chrono : as long as there is necro in game, you can't do alacrity on steroid.

 

The only thing which I agree is : offense=best defense today.

 

@Salt Mode.3780:

I don't know if stat "diversity" in WvW is better... And the point capture mode add more build diversity than just a all fight mode IMO.

 

@FarmBotXD.1430 :

I did the 3) years ago to legendary back and it was already the case 😄

[Salt Mode.3780]

31 minutes ago, viquing.8254 said:

 

@Salt Mode.3780:

I don't know if stat "diversity" in WvW is better... And the point capture mode add more build diversity than just a all fight mode IMO.

 

Untrue I cannot recall how many builds were removed from sPvP due to amulets, sigils, and runes being actively removed from the game mode.

It is harder to counter a build in the sPvP scenario with limited stat combinations as well as runes/sigils. 

Again that's why instead of balancing the actual problematic builds, its easier to just remove the amulet that caused the build to be too strong.

Edited June 6, 2022 by Salt Mode.3780

[xXxNikiGoesWildxXx.3678]

Well you are so negative about it but i don't think mesmer will hit buffs neither it needs buff. It is exactly class that require some skill and practice. I made few of my builds for mirage and virtuoso, i am doing very well. 

Mesmer shouldn't be like harbringer and willbender, good in any hands of any type of player. They just need to tone down other steroid classes and mesmer will be fine as it is fine already.

Damage mitigation is one of the strongest in the game, burst is as well one of the strongest. The only thing as i mentioned above and here again is how you gonna use your abilities, like will you dodge enemy burst or will you eat it and die, or will you land your own burst properly or just throw it just to put spell on cd. 

[Salt Mode.3780]

There isnt enough Mesmer players in the sPvP scene for people to understand how Mesmer work, that is why people see Mesmers strong. You bring that in WvW however its a different story.

Edited June 6, 2022 by Salt Mode.3780

[viquing.8254]

52 minutes ago, Salt Mode.3780 said:

Untrue I cannot recall how many builds were removed from sPvP due to amulets, sigils, and runes being actively removed from the game mode.

It is harder to counter a build in the sPvP scenario with limited stat combinations as well as runes/sigils. 

Again that's why instead of balancing the actual problematic builds, its easier to just remove the amulet that caused the build to be too strong.

Its true that amulet removal to fix balance is bad but to contrary, WvW stats are stratospheric.

 

50 minutes ago, Svez Poizon XD.5268 said:

They just need to tone down other steroid classes and mesmer will be fine as it is fine already.

That's what we said after mirage nerfs.

We endend up with a 2 years meta who don't change.

It's been years since we haven't tools to compete. (Mean the moment a necro overrun a mesmer there is an obvious problem... to give an example.)

So yeah maybe if they tone down classes who haven't drawback it could be fine but it didn't happend past years and I doubt it will happened one day.

And even with thsi, virtuoso isn't fine : they mindlessly buff block/temporisation wherease it can't compete by design : no mobility, projectiles (los), casts, etc. We will end up with an unkillable unfun classes not using his original gameplay...

 

Edited June 6, 2022 by viquing.8254