Reflect and stealth abilities target cap

[Loke.1429]

If damage is capped at 5 targets, healing capped at 5 targets, many boons capped at 5 target, why cant projectile hate / reflect and stealth abilities also only protect 5 players? They have made it too strong, or made entire speces useless with it imo. Too be clear I wish all target caps were 10player, but also think projectile hate and stealth is too easily accessible and poorly implemented from a balance point of view.

[Custodio.6134]

almost every stealth ability (at least those that provide stealth longer than 1 second) does have a target cap, so at least that is not what i understand why you even mention it. 

Sneak gyro doesn´t have a target cap yes, but it only applies 1,5 seconds stealth per pulse, over the course of 6 seconds (while pulsing every second). that´s not that strong alone (which is the reason why it gets comboed with blast finishers). 
Then, the blast finishers also only provide 3 seconds of stealth when comboed with smoke, so realistically, you will only reach ~12 seconds of stealth doing that (anything beyond requires perfect execution with skill-swapping, which is unrealistic in any non-trained scenarios like progressive WvW-guild raids)

Giving all skills a target cap of 10 would be a horrible idea. In fact, to complete mess that high-target-capped skills created was one of the reasons why necro-shades got nerfed into the ground. they used to strip 3 boons and hit 5 players (or 10 players when traited to be the big AoE's) instead of the 1 boon and 3 targets (or 5 when traited for big AoE) and it was completely busted. 
So if shades with a target cap of 10 were already waaaay too strong, imagine ALL abilities having a 10-target cap (instead of 5). 

Also, the whole game is designed (at least in terms of supportive effects on allies) around parties of 5. any change of this base number would completely mess up all the skills existing, which is why at least allied target caps are always an increments of 5 (10/15 and so on). any change on that would make supporting counterintuitive and inconsistent. 

The part i agree with is the non-existent target-cap on projectile-hate. It completely disables every specc that is based on projectiles, but would have potential if it  had no projectiles, or there was less (or less effective) projectile-hate in the game. 

[ASP.8093]

8 hours ago, Custodio.6134 said:

Sneak gyro doesn´t have a target cap yes, but it only applies 1,5 seconds stealth per pulse, over the course of 6 seconds (while pulsing every second). that´s not that strong alone (which is the reason why it gets comboed with blast finishers).

Each pulse only affects 5 players, same as other skills like that.

[Zoser.7245]

Combo fields:  "Only 5 unique combatants can combo with a given combo field."   In this case yes, by blasting them more than 5 players could be affected depending on the situation. And a player could get a maximum of 15 seconds of stealth if affected by all the combos from a single combo field.

Sneak Gyro was updated and now only affects 5 allies.  The skills that still affect a bigger number of players with stealth i believe that are:  Mass Invisibility and Veil from mesmers. I imagine that they will updated them with a cap of 5 allies in a near future. Although they should rename Mass Invisibility with a different name and add something more to that elite. Not sure what they'll do with Veil but a bit scared of what they could do with it, could end up being garbage, you know.

About the shields, walls, etc. I'm not sure if those affect more than 5 allies today.  But, if not,  i see them doing the same as they did with boons and adding a cap of 5 allies protected inside/behind those skills with a priority system, like with boons, so the player that use the skill is always protected , after him his group, etc.  And,  of course, blocking/reflecting all the icoming attacks for those protected allies.  

 

Edited May 25, 2022 by Zoser.7245

[Custodio.6134]

11 minutes ago, Zoser.7245 said:

Sneak Gyro was updated and now only affects 5 allies

Seems like I missed that, since the tool tip doesn't reflect that change (whenever it was). 

 

 

[DanAlcedo.3281]

To be honest, the fact that a single reflect wall can make projectiles from an 80man zerg useless is kinda bonkers. 

Also traited a 10s duration with a 20s cd. So 2 guards have close to 100 uptime. 

Edit : corrected numbers 

Edited May 25, 2022 by DanAlcedo.3281

[SWI.4127]

Stealth is capped.  I agree about reflects and projectile blocks though.  That would probably have to go hand-in-hand with some rebalancing so certain classes aren't just OP.  I just hate how a lot of the newer specs are just dead on arrival for zerging because they are projectile-based.  

[Aeolus.3615]

3 hours ago, DanAlcedo.3281 said:

To be honest, the fact that a single reflect wall can make projectiles from an 80man zerg useless is kinda bonkers. 

Also traited a 12s duration with a 24s cd. So 2 guards have close to 100 uptime. 

 

If a zerg only has range its not those guardians fault nor the reflects.

Range players just dont want counters in zerg gameplay, theres melee and aoe wich nulifies the single target range counter.

Reflects are not mobile no class has perma anti range, and if a zerg gets countered by a static group behind a WoR.... that not only irealistic but never hapened.

Btw WoR only lasts 8seconds, if i recall its the reflect that lasts longer  and 10 seconds when traited but for that virtues like need to be taken.

All i can see is a 6sec to 8sec(when traited) reduce its duration.

I also dislike when my rene bow cant condi targets to hell, but i just need to stop and shoot another target or use AOE skills or dive into melee range if the situation alows it.... but reflects need to exist w/o limit due how gameplay is zerg n'range.

Edited May 25, 2022 by Aeolus.3615

[DanAlcedo.3281]

28 minutes ago, Aeolus.3615 said:

If a zerg only has range its not those guardians fault nor the reflects.

Range players just dont want counters in zerg gameplay, theres melee and aoe wich nulifies the single target range counter.

Reflects are not mobile no class has perma anti range, and if a zerg gets countered by a static group behind a WoR.... that not only irealistic but never hapened.

Btw WoR only lasts 8seconds, if i recall its the reflect that lasts longer  and 10 seconds when traited but for that virtues like need to be taken.

All i can see is a 6sec to 8sec(when traited) reduce its duration.

I also dislike when my rene bow cant condi targets to hell, but i just need to stop and shoot another target or use AOE skills or dive into melee range if the situation alows it.... but reflects need to exist w/o limit due how gameplay is zerg n'range.

Yeah got the number wrong. 

Also, I didn't mean that one wall makes 80 guys useless or something. 

I just think having one Typ of  skill blocking essentially infinite attacks is kinda strong huh? 

It's the only reason projectiles are seen as useless in Wvw. 

I could totally see them putting a limit on how much a single skill can reflect per second in the future. 

[Aeolus.3615]

31 minutes ago, DanAlcedo.3281 said:

Yeah got the number wrong. 

Also, I didn't mean that one wall makes 80 guys useless or something. 

I just think having one Typ of  skill blocking essentially infinite attacks is kinda strong huh? 

It's the only reason projectiles are seen as useless in Wvw. 

I could totally see them putting a limit on how much a single skill can reflect per second in the future. 

 

Long range can easilly burst targets, that will make range gemeplay extreme broken, its the range players that need to stop want to spam and get instant rewards, they need to pay atention as a group or solo if theres is something to counter them, if Anet add limit to reflects theres the issue of load from server side counting and taggin every reflect created(every7thing that gets enumerated its more something that servers need to work for), reason i belive it is better to just reduce  from 8 to 6.

Dan i havent seen single ublockable nor team spike on a player that is using reflects, all the other side tries to do is increase DPS... just to serve as example something that hapened recently and this comes from the server im from and our host, enemy had 2 WoR and some mesmers reflects all that  while they were 100% range builds, our rangers and other more single range weapons went melee range with range weapon or increased dps and were gettiong killed over and over.. it just makes no sense... really.

I think the real issue is players not using all the tools and try to play a DPS race, every range class has tools to counter projectile hate  or skills that are not countered by projectile hate itself.

 

Edited May 25, 2022 by Aeolus.3615

[ASP.8093]

4 hours ago, DanAlcedo.3281 said:

To be honest, the fact that a single reflect wall can make projectiles from an 80man zerg useless is kinda bonkers. 

Also traited a 10s duration with a 20s cd. So 2 guards have close to 100 uptime. 

Edit : corrected numbers 

I think any kind of "target cap" would make it incredibly janky, though. Because you'd see some projectiles going through it while others get stopped/reflect, in a completely ludicrous and unintuitive way.

If they must nerf it, a better move might be some entirely different kind of mechanic, like a projectile soak limit (your shield collapses after reflecting 200 shots or something) — though even that has a big down side, which is that suddenly the optimal play is to overwhelm with force rather than to play around it.

[Canidae Canis.2861]

I've often wondered about making projectile blocks/reflects stop only a percentage of incoming hits. The random nature could make some interesting scenarios depending on what percentage is used, but it would help to reduce ranged pressure without eliminating it entirely.

[Xenesis.6389]

9 hours ago, Zoser.7245 said:

Combo fields:  "Only 5 unique combatants can combo with a given combo field."   In this case yes, by blasting them more than 5 players could be affected depending on the situation. And a player could get a maximum of 15 seconds of stealth if affected by all the combos from a single combo field.

Sneak Gyro was updated and now only affects 5 allies.  The skills that still affect a bigger number of players with stealth i believe that are:  Mass Invisibility and Veil from mesmers. I imagine that they will updated them with a cap of 5 allies in a near future. Although they should rename Mass Invisibility with a different name and add something more to that elite. Not sure what they'll do with Veil but a bit scared of what they could do with it, could end up being garbage, you know.

About the shields, walls, etc. I'm not sure if those affect more than 5 allies today.  But, if not,  i see them doing the same as they did with boons and adding a cap of 5 allies protected inside/behind those skills with a priority system, like with boons, so the player that use the skill is always protected , after him his group, etc.  And,  of course, blocking/reflecting all the icoming attacks for those protected allies.  

 

Those two for mesmers have trade offs. Veil only lasts 2s, 3s with trait, and 72s cooldown, longer than sneak gyro, if they bothered with a cap it'll probably end up like portal cap of 20. Mass invis will probably get cap locked to 5 at some point, but it also only gives 6s, 9s with trait, can be brought down to 60s cooldown with trait. Still very rarely used because not many run core mesmer in a zerg, chrono's will run gravity well, no mirage in zergs, virtuoso's maybe, but not really.

Sneak gyro started at a ridiculous low cooldown, now it's up to 60s, can be blasted, lasts longer than mass invis, and is available in practically every single group.

They can cap the mesmer skills if they want, but that'll just make sure they never get used and sneak gyro will still be tops because of the blast extension.

As for shields, there's different versions, the area ones and the personal ones. They'll most likely never put a cap on them, probably even a require a rework to make that happen, reducing the durations would be the easier route for them to take on it. Considering they're already reducing aoe damage so precious boon blobs don't get touch from range, I highly doubt they're looking to let more single target projectile damage through to them. Both anet and the "fight" guilds want fights to be melee oriented.

[ArchonWing.9480]

8 hours ago, DanAlcedo.3281 said:

To be honest, the fact that a single reflect wall can make projectiles from an 80man zerg useless is kinda bonkers. 

Also traited a 10s duration with a 20s cd. So 2 guards have close to 100 uptime. 

Edit : corrected numbers 

And the fact that it's not taken anyways (because projectile hate is  so readily available) should be telling.

Edited May 25, 2022 by ArchonWing.9480

[SWI.4127]

8 hours ago, Aeolus.3615 said:

Reflects are not mobile

 

Scrapper defense field is.   Most groups have 1 in every party.  Guardian shield 5 is.  Again one in every party.  No they're not reflects, but they still destroy projectiles.  Then you have WoD which is gigantic.  Most chokes can be completely covered by one FB courage reflect bubble.  It's funny you mention WoR because it's one of the worst offenders IMO.  Thank God it's not meta for most groups yet.  If traited it has a 10 second duration with 20 second cooldown.  So 50% uptime on this huge wall that blocks an unlimited number of projectiles.   All it would take is 2 people to completely prevent any projectiles in a choke.  It just makes no sense to have these limitless skills. 

 

You are right that it would cause balance issues to change it.  We'd definitely need adjusting.  It's just sad when stuff like Harbinger elixirs get projectile blocked so it can't even function as a pseudo support that they clearly intended as an option.   New mesmer shatters are all projectiles, so that class is written off on day 1.  Basically any class without mostly ground target AoE has no place in medium to large scale fights and it's because of the amount of projectile hate. 

[Aeolus.3615]

11 hours ago, SWI.4127 said:

 

Scrapper defense field is.   Most groups have 1 in every party.  Guardian shield 5 is.  Again one in every party.  No they're not reflects, but they still destroy projectiles.  Then you have WoD which is gigantic.  Most chokes can be completely covered by one FB courage reflect bubble.  It's funny you mention WoR because it's one of the worst offenders IMO.  Thank God it's not meta for most groups yet.  If traited it has a 10 second duration with 20 second cooldown.  So 50% uptime on this huge wall that blocks an unlimited number of projectiles.   All it would take is 2 people to completely prevent any projectiles in a choke.  It just makes no sense to have these limitless skills. 

 

You are right that it would cause balance issues to change it.  We'd definitely need adjusting.  It's just sad when stuff like Harbinger elixirs get projectile blocked so it can't even function as a pseudo support that they clearly intended as an option.   New mesmer shatters are all projectiles, so that class is written off on day 1.  Basically any class without mostly ground target AoE has no place in medium to large scale fights and it's because of the amount of projectile hate. 

And there isnt anything that the projectile users cant do?  like reallly nothing ??? reaaally?

if u just want to pew pew its u that is at fault, meelee cant push either in choke points should ANET delete 50% of the current  aoe as well????.... As sometimes melee isnt possible either, players need to adapt, and an unblockble  spike deals with that caster of projectile hate, its what good players do when im with ventari they cc and spike with LB2 while unblockable... when im on the other side using Renegade bow i need to choose wich skills i can use better i cant just think of spamming trough party perma quickness and thinking i need only to spam skills, i have to adapt to counter or keep pressuring WoR casters with  bow skills that arent projectiles.

Sorry i can only see this as a l2p issue or some dificulty to adapt to combat, game is already almost range+aoe combat and way way more than melee fights,  projectile hate needs to be how it is to make at least melee pushes avaliable when they can happen, if not its a ranger zerg fest just spam that things get wrecked, with current game balance its impossible this to happen cause this would make fights even worse.

Edited May 26, 2022 by Aeolus.3615

[kamikharzeeh.8016]

stealth is yet heavily capped, at least for groups. and duration got way limited.

 

projectile reflects are FINE as they are. not the new classes (harbinger?) would profit mostly, but the tower rangers, thief rambos and gunflamers as well as random dragonhunters, ele freecasters rather...

 

there's far too many classes who have absurd base weapon 111111111111 projectile dmg peaking from far range, this must not be nerfed.

[Jski.6180]

Should we make all boons only work on 5 targets too not in the casting and applying but the boon use. If you hit 5 ppl with a stack of might then that stack of might gorse away or if your hit by 5 skills should protection fall away.

I dont like the 5 target cap but i also think stronger skills should be less then 5 targets (aggressive and def skills). To make every thing just 5 targets and not do a thing about how strong the effect is or what is applied is bad balancing.

[Xenesis.6389]

2 hours ago, Jski.6180 said:

Should we make all boons only work on 5 targets too not in the casting and applying but the boon use. If you hit 5 ppl with a stack of might then that stack of might gorse away or if your hit by 5 skills should protection fall away.

I dont like the 5 target cap but i also think stronger skills should be less then 5 targets (aggressive and def skills). To make every thing just 5 targets and not do a thing about how strong the effect is or what is applied is bad balancing.

Or make it so every hit reduces the duration by like 5s, since half these boons stack durations.

 

But yeah that's obviously not going to get past the gvg senate for wvw balance.

[Aeolus.3615]

Alot of the game would have to be changed to redesign how projectile nulls work and another strong game balance would have to happen( we all here know how Anet thinks on game balances....), if gets touched besides CD and their  duration with the current game mechanics will kill the game to 100% range vs 100% range w/o counters to the amount of range skills, would make every one want to play range builds so it can nulify and overwhelm envery  progectile hate, it would just not work.

 

 

It a issuefor range players that only use single projectiles but Its not a problem, its a bit like stealth and melee combat itself, cant be touched cause changes would just make the game worse, melee builds also suffer from a similiar problemagainst aoe and its  spam , aoe specs can pressure alot the melee specs, look at scourge mainly was designed to nulify melee combat it still does but a bit less than before, one of the reasons its one of the main specs in wvw.

Edited May 26, 2022 by Aeolus.3615

[SWI.4127]

Like I said it would require massive balance changes, I agree that it wouldn't be a change for the better under the current circumstances.  Just expressing my frustration with all the projectile hate making many spec/weapons/skills inherently useless. 

[ASP.8093]

I do think the thing that's kinda untenable about projectile blocks/reflects right now is that they haven't really forced a *melee* playstyle at all, they've just forced a meta where a handful of classes with non-projectile-based ranged burst are the only useful ones. And, idk, maybe it would be worse if everyone was also spamming Grenades or using the Ranger Longbow. But the particular mix of who gets to have a viable pirateship build and who doesn't feels kinda arbitrary right now.

[Popel.1468]

How about this:

All Anti-projectile walls are destroyed if player who placed them are Disabled? Just like Shield5 of a guardian.

[Aeolus.3615]

14 hours ago, SWI.4127 said:

Like I said it would require massive balance changes, I agree that it wouldn't be a change for the better under the current circumstances.  Just expressing my frustration with all the projectile hate making many spec/weapons/skills inherently useless. 

which is a valid point, myself when using bow and how game is behaving theres lots of perma scrapper domes lol

IMO scrapper needs to loose that dome :)  theres to much scrappers overstacked, or at least classes that have projectile hate should have huge trade offs like ventari has while have its dome up, a single bursn with unblockable or gank on its caster wiill force target to choose to die with dome up or colapse to swap legend.

Edited May 27, 2022 by Aeolus.3615

[DanAlcedo.3281]

On 5/25/2022 at 8:27 PM, ArchonWing.9480 said:

And the fact that it's not taken anyways (because projectile hate is  so readily available) should be telling.

Not using your projectiles is one of the first lessons you learn in Wvw. 

You can't really see all the potential million effects that reflect in the chaos of effects that is a Zerg fight. 

There are just soooooo many of them.