Im pretty sick of failing Dragons End meta

[Astralporing.1957]

18 minutes ago, Gehenna.3625 said:

I think I'm mostly confused about Anet's failing attempts of trying to get people involved by putting items behind group content and they persist in doing this. It just feels like they're trying to do the same things over and over again expecting a different result.

Perhaps the changes in dev personnel mean that the lessons of the past are quickly forgotten and thus they're doomed to repeat their failures over and over again. Or, more likely, they have an idea of where they want their game to go, but it clashes with reality, so they try over and over again hoping for a miracle to happen.

Too bad they don't seem to care about the consequence of their experiments on their playerbase.

[maxwelgm.4315]

Even the discussion is becoming somewhat tiresome surrounding the meta. All the points have been made several times already. Everyone in both sides admit the pre-event rewards suck and that if they wanted such an epic build up the pre events should be rewarding. Case in point: Dragon's Stand used to fail a lot back when we only had HoT classes, but the leading up to Mordremoth's Mouth was rewarding enough that you never went to the next attempt with your hands empty, even before the Hero's choice chest. 

 

After the HoT rewards update (wow, they made this mistake again), Dragon's Stand became very worthwhile even with the prospect of maybe failing the final encounter. And even then, the fail rate was likely abysmally lower than it is with Soo Won, and mind you, that was an event which required THREE SQUADS to coordinate a split in between 3 bosses and 3 zerg blighting pod control events, and people had to use CC in a time where the CC bar was actually a new thing. 

 

Yet here we are again in 2022 with something that somehow ended up worse than the first iteration of HoT metas. Unrewarding pre-events, high failure rates in comparison to other maps, and the worst offender of all, promoting player disengagement. In the end, it doesn't matter if it's hard or not, if it's epic or not, rewarding or not etc etc. If you end up making people give up and not wanting to play it, something was done wrong and you left it wrong for far too long. Again, Dragon's End is tiring, which is far worse than being difficult or unrewarding.

[Gehenna.3625]

2 minutes ago, Astralporing.1957 said:

Perhaps the changes in dev personnel mean that the lessons of the past are quickly forgotten and thus they're doomed to repeat their failures over and over again. Or, more likely, they have an idea of where they want their game to go, but it clashes with reality, so they try over and over again hoping for a miracle to happen.

Well this is the core of my confusion essentially. They already tried strikes in IBS and I really wonder why they persisted on this course, since they didn't appear to be that successful at all. Then again, it seems that they're trying to kill two birds with one stone, but if it hits one bird and nudges the other that's good enough. I suspect it might be a lot easier to make  4 strikes than one raid and if even just a few more people enjoy strikes then they call it a win.

2 minutes ago, Astralporing.1957 said:

Too bad they don't seem to care about the consequence of their experiments on their playerbase.

I don't know if that's true. What might be true is that they're disconnected from the player base to a certain degree and are therefore limited in their vision for this game. Which is causing them to shoot and miss more times than necessary. I mean, there will be misses anyways. It just seems that their resources for GW2 are more limited these days. SWTOR is much worse in that sense, but because of the lack of resources there you not only see less content but more "one-size-fits-all" attempts, which invariable leads to "one-size-doesn't-fit-all" results. So where they thought content would appeal to multiple groups it actually doesn't.

I'd hate for GW2 to go the same way. 

[yoni.7015]

15 minutes ago, Astralporing.1957 said:

Too bad they don't seem to care about the consequence of their experiments on their playerbase.

For quite a lot of players these “experiments” do have a positive outcome. Because of the DE meta players started to communicate and cooperate with each other again, new groups and guilds were formed. 
Bur of course, you can’t please everyone. 

[Gorem.8104]

12 hours ago, Brimstar.9036 said:

I don't think there is anymore tuning they need to do now. They've posted the increase of success runs over failure when the changes took place and its a vastly bigger amount of people clearing it.

From my personal experience, I haven't failed since launch of EoD and after the changes/nerfs to the encounter I can even say with pickup PUG groups on LFG I haven't failed once yet. Its a clear sign the majority of people know the mechanics by now and that confidence shows in all the successful runs I've done post launch. 

I truly believe nothing needs to be changed about the encounter, anymore changes would make it another faceroll world boss where no thought has to go into it, which isn't what they want by the expression of keeping it some of the hardest PvE content they've made. 

There was an entire thread, that was very popular, and got more upvotes then most posts I have ever seen on this site about seeking clarity on their "60%" ratio and how little it means and how little information it actually gives us as 60% success means nothing without context. What we need is total attempts, which is sooo obvious that is down compared to launch. What 60% essentially meant is that you have no choice but to join a stacked squad that is organised to beat the non-consensual raid boss, and all pugs should be 100% fail rates. Before that thread was locked of course because it grew too big as do most discussions surrounding the games worst meta.  A meta that forced Anet to go into damage control mode to prevent tens of thousands of players leaving the game. 

 

Instead of just, oh idk, making the meta not suck and actually be rewarding?

[yoni.7015]

2 minutes ago, Gorem.8104 said:

There was an entire thread, that was very popular, and got more upvotes then most posts I have ever seen on this site about seeking clarity on their "60%" ratio and how little it means and how little information it actually gives us as 60% success means nothing without context. What we need is total attempts, which is sooo obvious that is down compared to launch. What 60% essentially meant is that you have no choice but to join a stacked squad that is organised to beat the non-consensual raid boss, and all pugs should be 100% fail rates. Before that thread was locked of course because it grew too big as do most discussions surrounding the games worst meta.  A meta that forced Anet to go into damage control mode to prevent tens of thousands of players leaving the game. 

 

Instead of just, oh idk, making the meta not suck and actually be rewarding?

Tens of thousands? From where did you get that number?

The only thing they should change about the meta are the rewards, that’s true. Everything else is fine now. 

[Gorem.8104]

1 hour ago, maxwelgm.4315 said:

Even the discussion is becoming somewhat tiresome surrounding the meta. All the points have been made several times already. Everyone in both sides admit the pre-event rewards suck and that if they wanted such an epic build up the pre events should be rewarding. Case in point: Dragon's Stand used to fail a lot back when we only had HoT classes, but the leading up to Mordremoth's Mouth was rewarding enough that you never went to the next attempt with your hands empty, even before the Hero's choice chest. 

 

After the HoT rewards update (wow, they made this mistake again), Dragon's Stand became very worthwhile even with the prospect of maybe failing the final encounter. And even then, the fail rate was likely abysmally lower than it is with Soo Won, and mind you, that was an event which required THREE SQUADS to coordinate a split in between 3 bosses and 3 zerg blighting pod control events, and people had to use CC in a time where the CC bar was actually a new thing. 

 

Yet here we are again in 2022 with something that somehow ended up worse than the first iteration of HoT metas. Unrewarding pre-events, high failure rates in comparison to other maps, and the worst offender of all, promoting player disengagement. In the end, it doesn't matter if it's hard or not, if it's epic or not, rewarding or not etc etc. If you end up making people give up and not wanting to play it, something was done wrong and you left it wrong for far too long. Again, Dragon's End is tiring, which is far worse than being difficult or unrewarding.

Here here! Yeah, at this point there is really not much left to discuss, if Anet wants the game to continue to bleed players they will do nothing, if they care about money and the game not dying, then they will fix this as they did when they made the same mistake in HoT. The meta needs to be shorter, much higher success rate and of course, actually reward something so its not a massive insane waste of time. 

So many players quit during HoT, and back then they actually did something about it, and now HoT is one of the best areas in the game, not really a hard thing to think about. 

Edited June 3, 2022 by Gorem.8104

[SlayerXX.7138]

3 hours ago, Fueki.4753 said:

Not everyone likes to actively put a lot of effort (and therefore stress) into their hobbies in order to improve.

Well isn't that what this threat boils down to. People don't want to improve or put effort into an encounter because that is stress to them.

Edited June 3, 2022 by Albi.7250

[Killthehealersffs.8940]

12 hours ago, yoni.7015 said:

For quite a lot of players these “experiments” do have a positive outcome. Because of the DE meta players started to communicate and cooperate with each other again, new groups and guilds were formed. 
Bur of course, you can’t please everyone. 

People already communicated and cooperated in the past .

Thy didn't have some1 to tell them to do more dps to progress

Quote

Tens of thousands? From where did you get that number?

The only thing they should change about the meta are the rewards, that’s true. Everything else is fine now. 

This not that the majority wants .

You like the content you take the same rewards .

Otherwise 15% reduction from CM+ raids and , and place them in DE , by multiplying them 2.5 times .

By repeating DE (every 2 hours) you will make more gold

 

Edited June 3, 2022 by Killthehealersffs.8940

[yoni.7015]

1 minute ago, Killthehealersffs.8940 said:

 

This not that the majority wants

 

How do you know what the majority wants? Did you make a survey? Then please share the results with us. 

[Killthehealersffs.8940]

10 hours ago, yoni.7015 said:

How do you know what the majority wants? Did you make a survey? Then please share the results with us. 

Yes i did

Just like you did your survey that the "expirement" increased communication and cooperation of the population , i create my study too

Edited June 3, 2022 by Killthehealersffs.8940

[yoni.7015]

2 minutes ago, Killthehealersffs.8940 said:

Yes i did

Just like you did your survey that the "expirement" increased communication and cooperation of the population , i create my study too

Just compare map and squad chat in DE meta with the chat during other meta events. 

[Killthehealersffs.8940]

10 hours ago, yoni.7015 said:

Just compare map and squad chat in DE meta with the chat during other meta events. 

Could you show me a pic to compare ?

Because always there were the commanders that did the commands the rest happily followed .

 

How was my idea of :

15% reduction from CM+ raids and , and place them in DE , by multiplying them 2.5 times .

By repeating DE (every 2 hours) you will make more gold , than you dream off ?

Edited June 3, 2022 by Killthehealersffs.8940

[yoni.7015]

3 minutes ago, Killthehealersffs.8940 said:

Could you show me a pic to compare ?

And a second with  how many LFG listing there were in the EoD launch to now ?

I can make some screenshots of squad chat next time I do the meta. Then you gonna share the results of your survey what the majority wants? 

[Killthehealersffs.8940]

12 hours ago, yoni.7015 said:

I can make some screenshots of squad chat next time I do the meta. Then you gonna share the results of your survey what the majority wants? 

I will tell you in-game and you can share it  here on the forums .

Just tell  tell me ,  the next time you are going to DE so i can go 45min before it starts , print screen/hop between maps and see how mamy casuals are doing the event .I can buy an account for NA

 

Edit:

How was my idea of :

15% reduction from CM+ raids and , and place them in DE , by multiplying them 2.5 times .

By repeating DE (every 2 hours) you will make more gold , than you dream off

Or a multiplier of 0.8 times for TT/marrionete/Cleansing Ire - they are short in duration , but can be done multiple times in the days

 

Edit2: How about we tell the company to send ingame questions about it and show the results .

or

They have to choose 3 out of 4 options,  between :

a)you must deal 9k dps

b) 35% chance to chance to die in the  fights

c) increased rewards

d)have fun + Colin's pic/NFTs will show up every time they die (or other ArenaNet co-worker)?.

(Grouch i want you , holding hands with the Box-me-daddy-raid designer....)

(something like Pokemon rare cards , were people will hold for themselves/don't feel bad when they die  or show the in the Reddit-social media -traction-how you call in marketing?)

 

Edited June 3, 2022 by Killthehealersffs.8940

[mindcircus.1506]

3 hours ago, Gorem.8104 said:

non-consensual raid boss,

Who came up with this line? ("non-consensual raid boss")
I keep seeing it being parroted by one side of this debate...
Does anyone know where this line came from?

[DeceiverX.8361]

2 hours ago, yoni.7015 said:

How do you know what the majority wants? Did you make a survey? Then please share the results with us. 

Coming from someone who does not really PvE at all, and generally waits years to do the story, and did not purchase EOD and has not played in a while:

ANet made a dev post a while back about their stats stating only around 11% of the active playerbase has completed a raid, with a majority of the active playerbase not even entering the area.

High-end PvE/Raid players are/were literally the second-smallest community in GW2 next to sPvP, but even sPvP had historically a higher interest rate and died from neglect more than anything.

The mindset of "git gud" in GW2 PvE is literally a minority of pre-EOD sales and from a strictly objective perspective, and so I sincerely doubt any claims otherwise are pretty unfounded, especially if those polling are surrounding themselves with people partaking in a lot of this content, anyways.

I'd not be surprised if the share of players wanting this type of content has jumped up a bit only by virtue of the larger GW2 audience (sPvP/WvW/Casual-Mid-Dungeon) simply leaving the game out of disinterest for the change in direction (we saw this previously in both HoT in PvE/WvW, and POF mostly in the PvP modes).

If the game suddenly changed to a First-Person-Shooter, everyone looking for a Third-Person Fantasy MMO would leave, and a "majority" (most of the remaining players who like Third-Person Shooters) would like its new direction, despite that not reflecting the reality of those potential players/revenue sources.

[SlayerXX.7138]

47 minutes ago, mindcircus.1506 said:

Who came up with this line? ("non-consensual raid boss")

Someone who is too much into politics or winning arguments on the internet? And people who like to see themselves as the noble victims picked it up. To indirectly elevate their grievance into something more pressing. Seeing at what we are talking about, the apparent seriousness the phrase get uttered and the implication of the Phrase it is honestly in bad taste.

[yoni.7015]

33 minutes ago, DeceiverX.8361 said:

Coming from someone who does not really PvE at all, and generally waits years to do the story, and did not purchase EOD and has not played in a while:

ANet made a dev post a while back about their stats stating only around 11% of the active playerbase has completed a raid, with a majority of the active playerbase not even entering the area.

High-end PvE/Raid players are/were literally the second-smallest community in GW2 next to sPvP, but even sPvP had historically a higher interest rate and died from neglect more than anything.

The mindset of "git gud" in GW2 PvE is literally a minority of pre-EOD sales and from a strictly objective perspective, and so I sincerely doubt any claims otherwise are pretty unfounded, especially if those polling are surrounding themselves with people partaking in a lot of this content, anyways.

I'd not be surprised if the share of players wanting this type of content has jumped up a bit only by virtue of the larger GW2 audience (sPvP/WvW/Casual-Mid-Dungeon) simply leaving the game out of disinterest for the change in direction (we saw this previously in both HoT in PvE/WvW, and POF mostly in the PvP modes).

If the game suddenly changed to a First-Person-Shooter, everyone looking for a Third-Person Fantasy MMO would leave, and a "majority" (most of the remaining players who like Third-Person Shooters) would like its new direction, despite that not reflecting the reality of those potential players/revenue sources.

The DE meta is by no means comparable to raids. I know some forum posters want to make you believe that. They use fancy creations like “non-consensual raid boss”. They are so eager to let you believe they know what the majority wants and that they represent this majority but don’t be fooled.
It is slightly more difficult than other meta events and you need a little bit more organization and cooperation. 
It appeals to a lot more players than raids. 

Edited June 3, 2022 by yoni.7015

[DeceiverX.8361]

7 minutes ago, yoni.7015 said:

The DE meta is by no means comparable to raids. I know some forum posters want to make you believe that. They use fancy creations like “non-consensual raid boss” but don’t be fooled. 
It is slightly more difficult than other meta events and you need a little bit more organization and cooperation. 
It appeals to a lot more players than raids. 

I mean all content is consensual in a game.  When the option to just otherwise not play exists (i.e.: me)

That said, there's way too much emphasis on completion these days.  As a WvW'er, my wardrobe is pitiful from the expansions from not having grinded open world and raids.

Would you say the difficulty is comparable to release DS?

Edited June 3, 2022 by DeceiverX.8361

[Killthehealersffs.8940]

10 hours ago, yoni.7015 said:

The DE meta is by no means comparable to raids. I know some forum posters want to make you believe that. They use fancy creations like “non-consensual raid boss” but don’t be fooled. 
It is slightly more difficult than other meta events and you need a little bit more organization and cooperation. 
It appeals to a lot more players than raids. 

Too bad , the casuals don't have a problem with organization and cooperation and mechanics .

But with the HP of the boss .

 

It's like the past saying of the people doing raids , that the casuals don't know what cc is .

Edited June 3, 2022 by Killthehealersffs.8940

[yoni.7015]

Just now, DeceiverX.8361 said:

I mean all content is consensual in a game.  When the option is to just otherwise not play (i.e.: me)

Would you say the difficulty is comparable to release DS?

It is comparable, I remember a lot of squads had issues with the towers in DS and I remember some failed attempts. DE is a bit more difficult than DS and the reward structure is better in DS. 

[Killthehealersffs.8940]

10 hours ago, yoni.7015 said:

It is comparable, I remember a lot of squads had issues with the towers in DS and I remember some failed attempts. DE is a bit more difficult than DS and the reward structure is better in DS. 

Did they failed because they couldn't outdps the boss , or they died ?

 

How about for increased rewards we use this ?

"15% reduction from CM+ raids and , and place them in DE , by multiplying them 2.5 times .

By repeating DE (every 2 hours) you will make more gold , than you dream off

Or a multiplier of 0.8 times for TT/marrionete/Cleansing Ire - they are short in duration , but can be done multiple times in the days "

Edited June 3, 2022 by Killthehealersffs.8940

[SlayerXX.7138]

36 minutes ago, DeceiverX.8361 said:

ANet made a dev post a while back about their stats stating only around 11% of the active playerbase has completed a raid, with a majority of the active playerbase not even entering the area.

 

36 minutes ago, DeceiverX.8361 said:

The mindset of "git gud" in GW2 PvE is literally a minority of pre-EOD sales and from a strictly objective perspective, and so I sincerely doubt any claims otherwise are pretty unfounded, especially if those polling are surrounding themselves with people partaking in a lot of this content, anyways.

Lol where does this hard meta is only for raiders narrative come from? Do you think someone able to solo a WvW camp struggles endlessly against DE. You think Someone in Gold isn't able to break a defiance bar or dodge an ability. Fractal player lack the ability to beat the meta? You think you couldn't do the meta with 5 random strikes groups? People who farm Kralkatorik crumble before the sea dragon? The guys carrying people throught other OW events absolutely can't do it? It is just a loud Minority in the forums who perceive it as to hard.

Edited June 3, 2022 by Albi.7250

[mindcircus.1506]

13 minutes ago, Albi.7250 said:

Someone who is too much into politics or winning arguments on the internet? And people who like to see themselves as the noble victims picked it up. To indirectly elevate their grievance into something more pressing. Seeing at what we are talking about, the apparent seriousness the phrase get uttered and the implication of the Phrase it is honestly in bad taste.

I agree the phrase is is seriously bad taste given the implication.
100%
I'm just wondering who came up with it, because it seems like the person I quoted was forcing a line they had heard somewhere into their posts....just wondering where they got it.,