Im pretty sick of failing Dragons End meta

[Wielder Of Magic.3950]

3 minutes ago, Erise.5614 said:

Doesn't teach. Just helps people who understand the system to perform higher, more easily. 

 

Depends how you define teaching and especially learning imo. Because these specs have a higher optimal output while requiring people to press less buttons even people who don't really understand it will perform better using it, just because the complexity of the equipped spec is that much lower. This might incentivise people to learn because if the complexity (and thus the floor) is lower, it might seem less intimidating to try. But like everything, it is a choice. You could make something as easy as breathing, if someone is not interested in learning it would not matter still.

6 minutes ago, Erise.5614 said:

Doesn't teach. Just reduces the amount of time you spend away from the fight and helps maintain your DPS uptime. Which is worthless if your DPS is low. This is minor QoL. Not education. 

 

It provides players with a cushion and reduces frustration of dying. For some it might be enough of a push to go from "I died, this sucks I am out" to "Whoa, I almost died, what hit me so hard?' and going from there. It adds leniency for those that need it. The masteries, the elite specs, the DE contributor buff... They all add cushions and leniency so you can make mistakes without them directly resulting in your demise.

8 minutes ago, Erise.5614 said:

Almost correct. Nothing prior teaches about DPS. The primary flaw.

Yes, if people just failed because of not doing those mechanics fast enough then your points would be fair. But it also requires more than two hundred percent the DPS. Which has not been taught gradually. And please be mindful and accurate about claims regarding this. I am building a substantial dataset and can say with quite high certainty that none of those mechanics are key reasons for failure.

Also, none of the other meta events are integrated into the storyline so it's quite possible they are skipped until players have reached the location where they can get their turtle. 

If it was expected education then it should also have been part of the critical path. 

And it is exactly this lack of education that results in the majority of players not performing anywhere close to knowledgeable players. If it's specific individuals who struggle, then it's their fault. If after a decade the majority struggles, it's ANets fault.

 

The DPS check for Soo Won is extremely low.  And you got all of the above that helps you to reach that number on top of quite a few other things I have not even mentioned yet.  

 

I am also failing to see how this meta is more integrated in the story than let's say Dragon's Stand was. It's an alternative battle, not the main battle, which happens in the story instance. That meta is optional, especially now that the turtle egg is no longer gated behind it. I would also like to add that the meta has already been nerfed a few times. Nerf it even more and nothing of interest is left. Some people like challenge. Some do not. Both are valid, but those that dislike challenge should not demand that the event loses said challenge for those that do like such a thing. If Open World is supposed to have content for all sorts of players, who all like different things, than it should also have content for those that like this sort of thing, especially considering there is very little of it in the open world as it is.

 

As for the critical path part: People will ignore and skip things all the time.  The only around that is making it mandatory to complete certain things, which Anet will never do because that would 100% violate the play like you want philosophy they try to follow. Because of that all forms of ingame explanations and education of mechanics will be skippable. But that IS on the player. Take fractals for example:  You are supposed to learn the fights on lower difficulties before jumping into higher tiers. Yet you see people who never did it before jump into T4 and then proceed to complain when they get smoked. Is it the game's fault that they fail, or is it their fault for forcefully skipping the education?

19 minutes ago, Erise.5614 said:

That's a polite way of saying you don't want players in your game who don't understand the combat and trait system well. Which is fair. But then you should be given the ability to gate keep and move out of the critical path of the game.

Raids are fine. It's fine not everyone can complete them.

But a meta like DE which is so prominent and central is not. It should be possible to complete. For everyone. Without jumping through a lot of hoops.

If a large amount of players are extremely frustrated by experiencing that, the fault is with ANet. Not with those players.

 

I am not against having people like that in the game at all, but I do think that people who do not understand the combat or trait system BASICS should not be able to succesfully complete all content, not even in the open world. Majority of Open World content sure, but not all of it.

[Gehenna.3625]

32 minutes ago, Erise.5614 said:

The problem is the extremely wide gap that knowledge creates in this game.

Which doesn't have to be a problem. But Anet actually created this problem themselves. 

32 minutes ago, Erise.5614 said:

Understanding the combat system and having a good build easily causes 5x-8x the damage output.

Probably more even and that by itself is a problem in an MMO that wants to appeal to various player groups.

32 minutes ago, Erise.5614 said:

Low DPS requirements may require of unknowledgeable players to be very active. While even medium DPS requirements are essentially just auto attacking for experienced players. That's where the "11111" myth comes from. Performance is mostly detached from how many skills you use. The players who are accused of wanting braindead content often just enjoy to play content they can actually do something in. 

I think that 1,1,1 myth comes from the reality that there are also a lot of leechers in meta's and world boss events that just press auto-attack and sit back and watch Netflix or something.

32 minutes ago, Erise.5614 said:

The root cause of that is exponential rewards for the right selections (percentage modifiers which increase in bonus the more base value you have. E.g. Dragon's End Contributor buff providing ~800 DPS to an unoptimized build while providing ~6000 DPS to an optimized one. But this is true for lots of traits, runes and sigils as well).

Not sure what you mean by "exponential rewards". The rewards are the same no matter how much effort you put into your build. If the event fails all people lose if the event is successful all players get the same rewards (or a change of them when it comes to RNG rewards). The gold, silver, bronze reward upon completion is hardly worth mentioning. If you mean rewards as in more dps, then that's not really important to a lot of players. I'm sure they wouldn't mind more dps, but not at the cost of having to delve into the combat system.

32 minutes ago, Erise.5614 said:

This widens the gap between experiences. 

Not sure what you mean here but it's probably because I'm not sure what you mean with the point above.

32 minutes ago, Erise.5614 said:

Mixed with a lot of freedom for build choices this means that effectively there are tons of traps everywhere. This freedom also means freedom to make mistakes. And those are punished extremely by the game.

Well, when a person who doesn't really want to delve into the combat system participates in a group event or meta, then the game doesn't punish them for doing less dps. Either the group event fails and then all are punished or the event is successful and all get rewards. The vast majority of OW content can be done without delving at least somewhat into the combat system.

32 minutes ago, Erise.5614 said:

There is zero chance to make the two extreme ends of the spectrum come together. The "way forward" can only be to disregard players who did not manage to improve and focus on the more hardcore community. 

Except the more hardcore community is the minority. Now if you mean focus on the hardcore community for this particular meta, then I would agree with you, but not in a general sense.

32 minutes ago, Erise.5614 said:

But instead of working on better education and feedback system to make that step up easier and more approachable. ANet created DE. Interpretation on my end. They hoped extreme frustration would get more players to seek out communities and resources and improve on their own. Aka git gud or get out. If that was the intention, then it is the worst approach to get players to learn or even just enjoy their time with the game. At least when one expects all players to participate in that content and integrates it accordingly. 

Well I think you'll find that a lot of players aren't interested in education with regards to the combat system as it is. They don't care about it and so they don't want it, but I think your idea might reach more people than what they did now. 

When DE was released it was definitely meant the way you describe. That's why they gated the turtle egg behind this meta. So yeah, they were trying to force people into other types of content. It still is that way because one of the collections for the turtle mount requires you to do the Kaineng Strike.

I just don't get why Anet thinks it's a good idea to force people into structured group content to obtain things that can only be used in OW, but that's what they did. And I think that that's also why there are so many complaints about the DE meta.

[Astralporing.1957]

35 minutes ago, Wielder Of Magic.3950 said:

 

You know this is blatantly false right? 

Anet has been trying to hand people tools to improve for years, people just tend to ignore them. 

No. They created a few tools that help measure those players that know how to improve their progress. They added vew mechanics that are supposed to teach some of the most basic elements (like dodge "tutorial"). Some of those tools are really bad (like the avoid damage tutorial in Seitung which for the most part does not reward you for doing truly well - i.e. for just not standing in AoE). None of those tools help players to improve in buildcraft however. If you were doing 4k in core, if you based your progress only on tools and directions game gave to you you'd still be doing 4k today.

It's not that people ignore the tools. It's just that those tools are simply not very helpful.

[Astralporing.1957]

7 minutes ago, Gehenna.3625 said:

Not sure what you mean by "exponential rewards".

Erise meant that a +25% damage buff, being a multiplicative buff, offers far more to those that already have builds with good dps, while being negligible help for those that are running bad builds. For a meta player that buff alone can offer more dps than the total damage of average OW player running that very same buff. In this it is very unlike more even increases like Might and Banners.

7 minutes ago, Gehenna.3625 said:

Except the more hardcore community is the minority. Now if you mean focus on the hardcore community for this particular meta, then I would agree with you, but not in a general sense.

Yes, that's the issue those asking for "progress" do not see. That this kind of progress would necessitate abandoning a majority of the player community. Or perhaps they do see that, and are perfectly fine with it, because they don't bother to consider far reaching consequences of this (or just think it would magically work out somehow).

[Killthehealersffs.8940]

10 hours ago, Wielder Of Magic.3950 said:

 

You know this is blatantly false right? 

Anet has been trying to hand people tools to improve for years, people just tend to ignore them. 

That's Anet being courteous to Open World players. 

They offer the tools and experiences to improve yourself, but if you refuse to do so you can still do the majority of the content. 

 

In the case of Dragon's End:

 

1. Anet added the most overpowered specs to the game in terms of both DPS and support, while at the same time those specs have a drastically reduced threshold to play effectively ( Compare Condi Virtuoso's rotation which 90% consists of the same 5 buttons with something like Condi Weaver for example. Or Support Mechanist, which has a whole lot of auto attacking and using it's F keys on cooldown for the most part). 

 

2. Masteries in this expansion added some of the most broken safety nets to players, especially the Jade Bot line which adds: A free res, a free teleport, and (depending on your Jade Core) 1-3k health.

 

3. Every meta prior to Dragon's End does it's best to teach you every possible mechanic. Examples:  All the other meta's have breakbars that at some point have to be broken. They all show big telegraphs where you should not stand in.  Seitung and Kaineng both feature a 'focus on adds' phase.  Kaineng features a split phase. Echovald features 'stand in green/hide behind objects to avoid a KO' mechanic. The only really new thing that the Soo Won fight adds is the green phase. Everything else gets shown to you in prior meta's in this expansion, and that is without mentioning how plenty of mechanics are going all the way back to the basegame. Dodging has been in the game since 2012, as are red telegraphs. Green = good and breakbars have been in the game since at least HoT so 2015.  Kill things at the same time has been featured since at least the Great Jungle Wurm in 2013, and people got a refresher for that with at least the Dragonfall meta.  Both Wurm and Tequatl also feature split phases.

 

There is simply nothing there that has not been explained to you and showed to you by the game prior, some of those things being so basic they have been a staple for over 5 or even 10+ years at this point. It is possible to miss them, but at some point that is no longer Anet's fault.

 

Some people just don't want to improve. 

Which is their choice and valid. 

But then don't complain when that choice means you cannot complete certain content, no matter where said content emerges. 

You have a right to experience content, not to succesfully complete it.

1)The only broken spec that they "official release" its the new warrior with the 150k execute with giving a funny  excuse that their using a mathematically formula named 'Windows xp shut do....', which is easy to execute.

Later on the community used "Kitty" (old forum player- aerodrome golem named after her) to invent Low Requirements builds .

And you can see that even Teapot with every raids member using Raids build in the first tried , they struggle to meet dps requirements .

But once again we had to appease the Raiders that were saying that "it creates bonds , and something to get gud" . That why the company reacted so slow (NEXT TIME DONT!)

 

2) Masteries that add free teleport , is to make people to have a second chance to play the game and not stay on floor for the 16min as dead . That way the OW areas are to teach people, and instance content is to stay on the floor

 

Raider are fixated with number and killing the boss as fast as possible . They told us 5 years ago to make our group instead of crying . Which we did in the OW . It will be easier to reduce the boss hp by 15% , rather than forcing 800k people to use the easy builds

Edited June 4, 2022 by Killthehealersffs.8940

[Gehenna.3625]

7 minutes ago, yoni.7015 said:

Exactly. It seems that some players ignore everything the game offers them to improve and instead come here to complain. It’s hard to change ignorance. 

Well, not quite. As it is not a goal to improve for them, of course they ignore that. It's not about ignorance a such but lack of interest. Something that seems hard to explain to you apparently. They don't want to improve because that doesn't matter to them. They just want to muck about and have fun in their way. It's a choice and this will not change and yet Anet keeps trying.

After years of attracting such players and enabling this type of gameplay, now suddenly Anet wants to change things, because it has created a rift between various groups in the player base. And so they're asking two groups of players to work together and neither group wants to change. I mean the people who play raids/strikes don't want to learn to just muck about and enjoy that either, do they?

[Wielder Of Magic.3950]

6 minutes ago, Killthehealersffs.8940 said:

1)The only broken spec that they "official release" its the new warrior with the 150k execute with giving the excuse that their using a mathematically formula named 'Windows xp shut do....', which is easy to execute.

 

uhm....Condition Virtuoso being able to do 40k+ with mostly 5 buttons?  The monstrous support of Mechanists with mostly auto attacks?  Harbinger hitting huge numbers with mostly spamming things off cooldown? Willbender, coming down with another "use F1, then spam everything you have" rotation on top of all the normal guardian support?  Specter DPS that is focused on simply throwing out as many scepter 3's as it can? I am sorry, but I am not sure if you know what broken means.

 

Your other points seem random and not making a lot of sense to me within the context of this discussion, so I cannot reply to them properly.

Edited June 4, 2022 by Wielder Of Magic.3950

[Gehenna.3625]

4 minutes ago, Astralporing.1957 said:

Erise meant that a +25% damage buff, being a multiplicative buff, offers far more to those that already have builds with good dps, while being negligible help for those that are running bad builds. For a meta player that buff alone can offer more dps than the total damage of average OW player running that very same buff. In this it is very unlike more even increases like Might and Banners.

Thanks for explaining that. But that means it's not rewarding for those players who don't care about those things. Just like someone who hates fashion wars doesn't care about learning how to acquire skins.

4 minutes ago, Astralporing.1957 said:

Yes, that's the issue those asking for "progress" do not see. That this kind of progress would necessitate abandoning a majority of the player community. Or perhaps they do see that, and are perfectly fine with it, because they don't bother to consider far reaching consequences of this (or just think it would magically work out somehow).

Well that's the thing. These players seem to be a large if not the largest part of the player base. And this is because Anet enabled this from the start, because generally it does magically work out somehow. And if it doesn't then Anet will nerf it. And if that doesn't work then they'll stop going there.

I've said it before but the combat system is way too complex for most of the content in this game. So the combat system attracts a type of player and most of the content another. Anet really put themselves into a pickle.

[Killthehealersffs.8940]

10 hours ago, Wielder Of Magic.3950 said:

 

uhm....Condition Virtuoso being able to do 40k+ with mostly 5 buttons?  The monstrous support of Mechanists with mostly auto attacks?  Harbinger hitting huge numbers with mostly spamming things off cooldown? Willbender, coming down with another "use F1, then spam everything you have" rotation on top of all the normal guardian support?  Specter DPS that is focused on simply throwing out as many scepter 3's as it can? I am sorry, but I am not sure if you know what broken means.

 

Your other points seem random and not making a lot of sense to me so I cannot reaply to them properly.

Which monstrus Mechanic Support?

All the specs released in the EoD were underpowered (exept Harbinger)

That why even teapot used the raids ones in DE first tries and left with 2 min on the clock .

Did you see the devs in the presentation to use it ?

 

Whcih part "released by devs"(150k execute)  and "created by player's contest 3 months later" (easy builds) dont you understand ?

Edited June 4, 2022 by Killthehealersffs.8940

[Wielder Of Magic.3950]

Just now, Killthehealersffs.8940 said:

Which monstrus Mechanic Support?

All the specs released in the EoD were underpowered

That why even teapot used the raids ones in DE first tries and left with 2 min on the clock .

Did you see the devs in the presentation to use it ?

 

Ok, you are blatantly trolling right now, there is no way someone can be so misinformed that they make statements like "all the specs released in EoD were underpowered".

 

Harbinger = great condi DPS and viable quickness. 

Virtuoso = great condi DPS, acceptable power DPS. 

Catalyst = great power DPS (albeit with a high skill ceiling) and a viable quickness build.

 

Specter = great condi DPS, support/heal/alac is workable, but somewhat niche. 

Mechanist = great condi DPS, currently one of the most broken supports in the game with aegis, stability, healing, alac, barrier, might, the list is pretty much endless, and has a very forgiving Low Intensity power build for more casually oriented players where 1-2 buttons nets them 20k DPS. 

Untamed = Okay, this one is a PvE dud.  But at least the PvP side of the populations seems to enjoy it somewhat.

 

Willbender = Great condi DPS, okay power DPS, Alac/support build on the verge of becoming a thing. 

Vindicator = under the radar support build (essentially discount Mechanist), Power is okay ( but should rely less on big hitboxes). 

Bladesworn = Good power build in PvE, PvP could use work.

 

Many of the DPS variants bench 38k to 40k+, setting new records even. 

Your lack of understanding also show in your Teapot mention. 

Teapot did not ignore the EoD specs because they were weak, he and his squad ignored them because it was their first stab at the meta and they wanted to play something they were comfy with, something they knew. Not something they were still in the process of learning.

 

Stop the misinformation. 

Please.

 

[Killthehealersffs.8940]

10 hours ago, Wielder Of Magic.3950 said:

 

Ok, you are blatantly trolling right now, there is no way someone can be so misinformed that they make statements like "all the specs released in EoD were underpowered".

 

Harbinger = great condi DPS and viable quickness. 

Virtuoso = great condi DPS, acceptable power DPS. 

Catalyst = great power DPS (albeit with a high skill ceiling) and a viable quickness build.

 

Specter = great condi DPS, support/heal/alac is workable, but somewhat niche. 

Mechanist = great condi DPS, currently one of the most broken supports in the game with aegis, stability, healing, alac, barrier, might, the list is pretty much endless, and has a very forgiving Low Intensity power build for more casually oriented players where 1-2 buttons nets them 20k DPS. 

Untamed = Okay, this one is a PvE dud.  But at least the PvP side of the populations seems to enjoy it somewhat.

 

Willbender = Great condi DPS, okay power DPS, Alac/support build on the verge of becoming a thing. 

Vindicator = under the radar support build (essentially discount Mechanist), Power is okay ( but should rely less on big hitboxes). 

Bladesworn = Good power build in PvE, PvP could use work.

 

Many of the DPS variants bench 38k to 40k+, setting new records even. 

Your lack of understanding also show in your Teapot mention. 

Teapot did not ignore the EoD specs because they were weak, he and his squad ignored them because it was their first stab at the meta and they wanted to play something they were comfy with, something they knew. Not something they were still in the process of learning.

 

Stop the misinformation. 

Please.

 

Yes plz tell me in which part of the devs show , they showed  that you can  reach 40k for the Mesmer on the presentations of the EoD specs  ?

Or the  part they show the Support Mechanic Alacrity spec , that we are using now + dps logs ?

 

Because as far the company , they released "specs"

And the community theory-crafters as the ones that try to create the rotations

Then if roations produce more numbers than intented , they nerf the spec ( like Elementalist , a month ago)

 

Whcih part "released by devs"(150k execute)  and "created by player's contest 3 months later" (easy builds) dont you understand ?

 

Teapot had done the meta before , it wasnt his first "stab" . That why he was the one that say it was overtune , while the Reddit+forums raiders were telling people to get gut , befre teapot released the video

Edited June 4, 2022 by Killthehealersffs.8940

[Wielder Of Magic.3950]

Ok, thanks for confirming to me that you are trolling, deliberately ignoring things and misinterpreting others on purpose.  I will now go ahead and put you on my blocklist, the first person on this forum to get there, because it is obvious that you are only here to troll and derail and are not interested in an actual honest good-faith discussion. This is not the first time I have seen you showing this behaviour on these forums either.

Have a nice day!

Edited June 4, 2022 by Wielder Of Magic.3950

[SlayerXX.7138]

Just failed the meta. Did it with my exotic geared (ascended trinkets) OW Renegade. Some observations:

1. Someone did tag up because nobody else did. Did put people into subgroups and wrote who goes where during the event. and in squadmessage. People from lfg couldn't join because map was full.
2. Escort phase went smoothly.
3. Crystal collection went poorly. People just killed the mobs instead of collecting the magic. Some noted its gonna be a failed run.
4. Directly at the start someone complained about the lack of stability. Didn't pay attention if they did bring it themselves.^^
5. Dps was mediocre I was in my arc dps window so top 10. Didn't really do any rotation full celestial.
6. First 20% were still fine all good. Seemed doable.
7. After that it did go downhill. People not standing in greens. The works.
8. Failed with 20% left on Boss. Could have failed better but people started to leave.
9. One charming individual blamed the commander for that. Somehow no reason was given.

From my point of view the biggest problems seems to be People not knowing what they are doing and hoping the other people do it for them. Nobody asked of course what to do.

 

Edited June 4, 2022 by Albi.7250

[Erise.5614]

1 hour ago, Wielder Of Magic.3950 said:

Depends how you define teaching and especially learning imo. Because these specs have a higher optimal output while requiring people to press less buttons even people who don't really understand it will perform better using it, just because the complexity of the equipped spec is that much lower. This might incentivise people to learn because if the complexity (and thus the floor) is lower, it might seem less intimidating to try. But like everything, it is a choice. You could make something as easy as breathing, if someone is not interested in learning it would not matter still.

That's making it easier in terms of physical ability. Not knowledge. 

Multiple answers are irrelevant if one doesn't understand the question. Build choices aren't choices if the player doesn't even understand there is a problem with their build and isn't able to understand what outcome the choices have.

It's less imitating only if you already understand everything.

It's like doing a math quiz and being told you're allowed to use a calculator. It's objectively easier but if you don't understand the symbols it's gonna be exactly as intimidating and unsolvable as before. 

1 hour ago, Wielder Of Magic.3950 said:

It provides players with a cushion and reduces frustration of dying. For some it might be enough of a push to go from "I died, this sucks I am out" to "Whoa, I almost died, what hit me so hard?' and going from there. It adds leniency for those that need it. The masteries, the elite specs, the DE contributor buff... They all add cushions and leniency so you can make mistakes without them directly resulting in your demise.

Yes, as I said. It's QoL and can be nice.

But it's not helping players to improve their peak DPS. It's not helping players understand the combat system, it's not providing more information about their performance, it's not helping them understand the choices they made, it's not helping them avoid the plentiful traps when deciding on their build and trait setup. 

1 hour ago, Wielder Of Magic.3950 said:

The DPS check for Soo Won is extremely low.  And you got all of the above that helps you to reach that number on top of quite a few other things I have not even mentioned yet.  

It's above average. Meaning on average players need to make changes in order to succeed. These changes are not related to doing the mechanics. The necessary changes are directly related to builds and peak DPS performance. Maximizing DPS uptime is important too, sure. But 100% DPS uptime on a 3k DPS build is worth less than 55% uptime on a 6k DPS build. 

The event necessitates to have enough players to carry the rest or for all players to improve their builds. 

1 hour ago, Wielder Of Magic.3950 said:

I am also failing to see how this meta is more integrated in the story than let's say Dragon's Stand was. It's an alternative battle, not the main battle, which happens in the story instance. That meta is optional, especially now that the turtle egg is no longer gated behind it.

Dragon's Stand was not even accessible. You had to complete Gerent in order to access it. Keeping a lot of players out and making sure such frustration was less likely. You weren't sent there via the story and you didn't get an achievement that was visible in your bar the second you entered the map for doing the meta before the story. 

Skipping the meta even results in a time skip within the game (aka characters being there you have no idea what they are doing there or how they got there).

The story is directly integrated into the event in several ways encouraging everyone to play it.

The turtle egg is a moot point too. By the time you can access the vendor you are already on the map. Deliberately avoiding all of Dragon's End requires you to farm materials and go to daily merchants for about a month. Or fail DE like 5 times. Or succeed once. The vendor is a pity system. Making sure you can gain access despite failure. It's not intended to be avoided entirely. Theoretically possible, but next to no one will even consider it. 

1 hour ago, Wielder Of Magic.3950 said:

I would also like to add that the meta has already been nerfed a few times. Nerf it even more and nothing of interest is left. Some people like challenge. Some do not. Both are valid, but those that dislike challenge should not demand that the event loses said challenge for those that do like such a thing. If Open World is supposed to have content for all sorts of players, who all like different things, than it should also have content for those that like this sort of thing, especially considering there is very little of it in the open world as it is.

but not all of it.

What is challenging about assuring your map has enough players with good builds?

Instanced content does have serious challenge after you did that. But DE really doesn't need more than that. Is the peak DPS that your map can reach high enough. Yes/No. Success/failure. 

But also. Who said OW is supposed to have content for everyone? Or more specifically, who said regular meta events should have? TT for example is miles better. It's basically dead but not as prominent and therefore not as egregious. I think there could be solutions. But designing it in such a way that every player is expected to participate is not "offering a challenge to those who like it".

1 hour ago, Wielder Of Magic.3950 said:

As for the critical path part: People will ignore and skip things all the time.  The only around that is making it mandatory to complete certain things, which Anet will never do because that would 100% violate the play like you want philosophy they try to follow.

The problem is they mingle different audiences. Different areas of the game without sufficient clarification. The critical story path leads right into DE. The critical achievement hunter path leads right into DE. The critical legendary weapon path leads right into DE. DE is the most central map to the expansion. Everything leads into it. And everything expects of you if not requires you to participate in the meta event. Plenty of things even require success. 

The fact that it does violate the play like you want philosophy is the key problem.

If it was less central. Portrayed as extra difficult and entirely optional event. Well then everything would be fantastic! 

They could make an event with 3 times the DPS necessary and it would be just fine! 

1 hour ago, Wielder Of Magic.3950 said:

I am not against having people like that in the game at all, but I do think that people who do not understand the combat or trait system BASICS should not be able to succesfully complete all content, not even in the open world. Majority of Open World content sure, but not all of it.

Fair. Again. TT is, in my humble opinion, much less of a problem. If some enjoy it, by all means. Give them some content to enjoy! 

But leave it out of so many critical paths. Make it a challenge that is optional. 

[Erise.5614]

21 minutes ago, Albi.7250 said:

Just failed the meta. Did it with my exotic geared (ascended trinkets) OW Renegade. Some observations:

1. Someone did tag up because nobody else did. Did put people into subgroups and wrote who goes where during the event. and in squadmessage. People from lfg couldn't join because map was full.
2. Escort phase went smoothly.
3. Crystal collection went poorly. People just killed the mobs instead of collecting the magic. Some noted its gonna be a failed run.
4. Directly at the start someone complained about the lack of stability. Didn't pay attention if they did bring it themselves.^^
5. Dps was mediocre I was in my arc dps window so top 10. Didn't really do any rotation full celestial.
6. First 20% were still fine all good. Seemed doable.
7. After that it did go downhill. People not standing in greens. The works.
8. Failed with 20% left on Boss. Could have failed better but people started to leave.
9. One charming individual blamed the commander for that. Somehow no reason was given.

From my point of view the biggest problems seems to be People not knowing what they are doing and hoping the other people do it for them. Nobody asked of course what to do.

 

Do you happen to have a video or could record your next run of this kind?

I'm looking for more such runs to properly evaluate them. Where exactly things go wrong. Whether the perspective and interpretation you yourself share is correct or if it's other factors. 

[Erise.5614]

1 hour ago, Gehenna.3625 said:

Probably more even and that by itself is a problem in an MMO that wants to appeal to various player groups.

I think that 1,1,1 myth comes from the reality that there are also a lot of leechers in meta's and world boss events that just press auto-attack and sit back and watch Netflix or something.

Even your attempt at explanation is lacking. On one hand, there's fewer of those than one might think. On the other hand, as far as I can tell in AB, they usually perform far above average when they do attack.

And I succeeded in DE yesterday watching a series on my second monitor. Making top 3 DPS at 29k average during DPS phases. 

All of these comments are strawman that just deflect. Try to push blame on players who, at least the vast majority, really are trying. They just don't know what isn't going right or what to change. 

1 hour ago, Gehenna.3625 said:

Not sure what you mean by "exponential rewards". 

Exponential rewards in this context means DPS. Percentage modifiers benefit exponentially from higher base DPS.

Let's take two players at Soo Won. One has a poor build. Deals 5k peak DPS, has 100% DPS uptime and gets the 20% buff. This buff gives them a bonus of 1k DPS for a total of 6k.

The other has the mechanist DPS build. 25k peak DPS, has 80% DPS uptime (die to every second attack, so 20k effective DPS) and now gets the 20% buff. This buff gives them a bonus of 4k DPS for a total of 24k. They performed drastically worse and yet had 400% more benefit from the buff. 

Percentage modifiers increase the efficiency gap. Knowledgeable players increase their advantage compared to people without that build knowledge. 

1 hour ago, Gehenna.3625 said:

Well, when a person who doesn't really want to delve into the combat system participates in a group event or meta, then the game doesn't punish them for doing less dps. Either the group event fails and then all are punished or the event is successful and all get rewards. The vast majority of OW content can be done without delving at least somewhat into the combat system.

A player's performance is punished extremely by poor choices.

And yes. It's exactly this collective punishment which makes me suggest that maybe these kinds of DPS checks are a terrible idea when 50+ players are tested simultaneously. As you make up 2% your own impact is basically irrelevant. You are either lucky or unlucky or guaranteed there's a lot of high performance players on your map through some means.

1 hour ago, Gehenna.3625 said:

Except the more hardcore community is the minority. Now if you mean focus on the hardcore community for this particular meta, then I would agree with you, but not in a general sense.

I mean this meta as a statement for the future direction of the game.

Yes, the hardcore community is a minority. Though I am fine if they are supported. But please not in this way. This is terrible. 

1 hour ago, Gehenna.3625 said:

Well I think you'll find that a lot of players aren't interested in education with regards to the combat system as it is. They don't care about it and so they don't want it, but I think your idea might reach more people than what they did now. 

When DE was released it was definitely meant the way you describe. That's why they gated the turtle egg behind this meta. So yeah, they were trying to force people into other types of content. It still is that way because one of the collections for the turtle mount requires you to do the Kaineng Strike.

I just don't get why Anet thinks it's a good idea to force people into structured group content to obtain things that can only be used in OW, but that's what they did. And I think that that's also why there are so many complaints about the DE meta.

I agree with your summary. But the first sentence isn't actually true.

Games are nothing but a learning experience wrapped in pleasurable graphics and pleasurable motions (aka button presses, mouse movements, etc.)

Anyone playing a game is interested in learning and anyone playing a game is interested in improving. 

The question is whether the game made learning and improving enjoyable enough. Because games will loose players the second they aren't enjoyable. Failure can be enjoyable. It can lead up to the highest highs once you succeed. But it needs to be enjoyable non the less.

And the second they loose players on that journey, the game can only provide comfort food to keep them engaged. 

GW2 is very bad at making the experience of learning and improving towards high performance enjoyable. It's barely possible in game. The community took, collaboratively, years to get to the performance and knowledge they are  at today. 

So either the game needs to be real smooth about thoroughly explaining everything in detail, training, reinforcing and only then testing these skills. Or it can not escalate difficulty, at the very least not in environments that are traditionally not focused on escalating difficulty. 

[Gehenna.3625]

52 minutes ago, Erise.5614 said:

All of these comments are strawman that just deflect. Try to push blame on players who, at least the vast majority, really are trying. They just don't know what isn't going right or what to change. 

Another person who doesn't understand what strawman means but loves to throw it around. The two often go hand in hand. 

I'll not further discuss things with you I think.

[Gorem.8104]

8 hours ago, Erise.5614 said:

It's actually a very interesting observation. How detached the perspectives are.

Almost as if these were to different kinds of subcommunities who enjoy different things and possibly should have a clear idea what content is built for them and what content is built for others.

Allowing people who enjoy both to just play both while allowing players who only enjoy one side to only play one side. Without running head first into unexpected brick walls. 

Extremely good point, just take Gifts of Battle for an example. How many times have we seen that complaint over the years? Even though with all the right buffs you can push your time spent in wvw close to 2 hours per track (not including wvw potions), its still something widely contested by pve players that they have to do. They took wvw map completion out of the requirement for 100% map completion (which was honestly a very nice thing to do) yet still left a requirement for pve players in there. 

Its fortunately one of the few instances something like this happens, a mix of players who play the game differently. Just from that experience you can tell things are better when players are just able to do their own thing and play the game their own way. 

Edit: Or in better words: "DON'T CROSS THE STREAMS!"

Edited June 4, 2022 by Gorem.8104

[Gorem.8104]

6 hours ago, Caliboom.3218 said:

People here seem to be forgetting that you even have meta build, even if you do 30k+ dps, it won't matter, because there's a chance that the dps from the average player in your squad is garbage.

So, even if you know traits, skills, and how to make a good build, it might not matter because some people in your squad probably don't, and you sure as hell aren't going around teaching randoms how to get better.

 

That is the thing with open world content essentially, you are as strong as your weakest links unless you really stack things so high in your favour it doesn't matter, such as the person earlier taking 20 raiders to carry 30 Randoms. You can be the best player in the world but if its a ratio of you v 49 who are doing 0-2k dps, good luck! There's a reason most content in the game now doesn't require this kind of dps check in open world. 

Put the same concept into doing a bounty in Sandswept isles, those are fun fights, and it wouldn't matter if the rest of your squad was failing, you alone essentially just helped 49 other people do something they couldn't otherwise, bringing joy and happiness to all! That's what the game should be about, people having fun doing what they like to do! 🙂 And honestly, there is a few ways DE could have been like this, if it was instanced and not something the game forced you into unlike all other content in the game. IF DE was more about people helping others, and those accepting of people who do nothing in a fight just as much as those who can do something, it'd be an entirely different discussion for sure. 

Edited June 4, 2022 by Gorem.8104

[Erise.5614]

12 hours ago, Gorem.8104 said:

That's what the game should be about, people having fun doing what they like to do! 🙂 And honestly, there is a few ways DE could have been like this, if it was instanced and not something the game forced you into unlike all other content in the game. IF DE was more about people helping others, and those accepting of people who do nothing in a fight just as much as those who can do something, it'd be an entirely different discussion for sure. 

This is such a good point. The game started out with the premise that players should always be happy to see another player. Well, in reality it wasn't always being happy about it. But in OW it at least used to never be a feeling of "oh no. Another player. This will be bad".

In DE and with the design philosophy behind it, it very much is bad to have certain players in your map. You want very specific compositions and primarily a specific target audience on your map. Or you'll fail.

The opposite of what GW2 was originally aiming for. Of what I love GW2 for. Stuff for different players is fine. Additional modes and kinds of content for others is fine.

But please no at the cost of abandoning this design philosophy for core OW content. 

[Luthan.5236]

There was another thread where I posted. About the 60 percent success rate. Tried this again in the past few weeks and the last 2 weeks I managed it once each week (1 out of 1 try - do not have that much time to try ot more often since it is boring/long) to complete it successfully..

Seems like joining 15-30 minutes early is still pretty risky. The really good groups alreay advertise 1 hour earlier. Meaning you'd need about between 1.5 and 2 hours.  Maybe instead of making it harder they should make it more "accessible" - by shortening the time. So you could do it more often/frequently ... even if you do not have that much time. (People wanting to do this daily would need a lot of free time unless they completely wanted to stop playing other content.)

The preparation could be shortened to 30 minutes and the meta phase also shortened by cutting out a lot of the early stuff (escorts and stuff) - since they are boring and not really hard and the main thing is getting to the end fight where the players get tested.

Having to join 1 hour before the (pretty long) main thing starts - then doing only boring preparations while waiting - is not really that appealing. Also when for the main thing most of the stuff feels unnecessary (and just pretty long - not challenging) - except the main fight at the end.

Edited June 5, 2022 by Luthan.5236

[Cuks.8241]

Remove map prep, add 10 stacks during escorts. Congrats weve got 45 min meta. 

You started the fix with 5 stacks during escorts. Correct path, didnt do much. Just go all the way. 

[Moradorin.6217]

On 5/29/2022 at 3:57 PM, Evil Octopi.8253 said:

I am sure there has been a number of treads for both nerfing and not nerfiing the Dragon's End meta, and I bet they all have great points.  I just want to say I am pretty sick of failing it.   The other EoD map metas, lots of fun, playing with everyone, doing all the things, emerging victorious.  Most times you can join a map from LFG, even if you are not early, and most times win.  That has not been my experience with Dragons End.  I have beat it 4 times so far since launch, but I am probably looking at 1:4 win/loss ratio.   Just today, failed twice, wasting 4+ hours of my day.   Not gonna lie, I feel pretty invalidated.    I want to play and do all the lead up to the meta and the final boss as the whole thing feels pretty epic, but I'm really starting to associate Dragon's End with un-fun that should be avoided.   If I'm feeling this way I bet others are too, I mean those were full maps I was on.   I'm going to try one more time today since I have time.   Take it as feedback, or a crazy rant, or whatever.

100% agree. EoD was pretty much the last straw for me. I wasnt happy with balance, direction of wvw, lack of guild updates (no mission overhaul or ANYTHING), lack of anything but monetize-able trash items. I still login daily to tick the chests, but tbh thats the totality of my activity after playing since release and over 12k hours on my main account. Just sick of feeling bamboozled.

 

I have tried the meta about 6-8 times since EoD was released every time the same thing happens. Comm makes subs, organizes like 50 players. (Side Note:wtf why should we make 10 groups of organized subs thats just kittening unfair to who ever is stuck on Com,[I will NEVER comm that dumpster fire OMG no thanks!]) Then everyone does pre events, sits with thumb up kitten till main event then main event ALMOST works but doesnt work cause its kitten design. I am left going OMG WHY DID I TALK MYSELF INTO PLAYING THIS HORRIBLE GAME AND WASTE ANOTHER 2 hours. TBH the turtle looks useless and I know I could buy it but why LOL. Its all hilariously insane.

Edited June 5, 2022 by Moradorin.6217

[Krzysztof.5973]

20 hours ago, Astralporing.1957 said:

They created a few tools that help measure those players that know how to improve their progress. They added vew mechanics that are supposed to teach some of the most basic elements (like dodge "tutorial"). Some of those tools are really bad (like the avoid damage tutorial in Seitung which for the most part does not reward you for doing truly well - i.e. for just not standing in AoE)

 

20 hours ago, Gehenna.3625 said:

After years of attracting such players and enabling this type of gameplay, now suddenly Anet wants to change things, because it has created a rift between various groups in the player base.

I would be able to hear the screeching of a toxic casual from across the continent, breaking sound barrier if anet locked the meta behind relatively difficult tutorial in Seitung. Remember the tiny jumping puzzle in Seitung and the related threads? 

There is no closing the gap anymore. Dunno why they decided to put "harder" metas into open world again. It always backfires.

[Astralporing.1957]

22 minutes ago, Krzysztof.5973 said:

 

I would be able to hear the screeching of a toxic casual from across the continent, breaking sound barrier if anet locked the meta behind relatively difficult tutorial in Seitung. Remember the tiny jumping puzzle in Seitung and the related threads? 

The problem with Seitung tutorial is not that it's too hard. It's that it is not good enough, and as such does not do teaching well. The example i gave you (the attack avoidance tutorial)? It does not progress the heart if you are fast enough you can simply walk out of AoE before it shoots (or just never stand within it). Even dodging out of it does not count if you do it too fast. This leaves many players totally confused, and goes against teaching the right reactions. Notice, that does not necessarily mean that a better tutorial is even possible - it may just be a result of some technical limitations. It does however mean that this specific totorial is mostly useless.

Quote

There is no closing the gap anymore. Dunno why they decided to put "harder" metas into open world again. It always backfires.

Sadly, i agree. The gap is too big, and the efforts needed to truly bridge it would also be too immense. And since that is so, trying to forcefully mix it up by pushing the players from "easier" side towards harder content (or pushing the harder content towards the "easier" side) will never yield positive results.

Edited June 5, 2022 by Astralporing.1957