What happened to respecting the customer's time?

[Erise.5614]

21 minutes ago, Rasimir.6239 said:

As a matter of fact you need machined weapons for every single HoT specialization collection, and at the release of HoT you could only get the plated weapons that unlock the associated machined weapon collection from a vendor that was only available at the end of a successful DS meta.

 

When they did the big HoT rework about half a year after release, one of the things they did was add vendors to the start of DS that sold the same stuff as the vendors at the end of the meta, including plated weapons and specialization inscriptions. The HoT collections also did (and still do) a noticable amount of crystaline ore to complete, which I remember being a lot more difficult to farm without meta back at HoT release than writs of Dragon's End are today (since you get those easily from the pre events without the need to actually do the meta).

The vendor always existed at both locations. The entrance and the end.

But looking up the old pages on the wiki, I did indeed remember that one incorrectly as the entry one only sold machetes until April 2016. My bad!

So what was leading players into DS were specialization collections, rune of leadership and Gen 2 legendaries. 

Still quite a far cry from all the aspects of the EoD expansion that lead you into DE. As DS notably had a much stronger lure for hardcore players and little use for non hardcore players. DE is almost the opposite. You get plenty of progress towards your legendary from outside of the event while most non hardcore systems lead you into it. 

Edited June 4, 2022 by Erise.5614

[Sobx.1758]

43 minutes ago, Erise.5614 said:

The comparison is made because the turtle is the key feature that was used in promo and advertising. There's no cups with skiffs on them. There were no cups with bouncing mushrooms. 

"key feature"? It's vague enough term for you to use to make it whatever you want it to be. The fact remains that this comparinson makes next to no sense for what each of those things do, no matter how many times you'll try to pretend it's anywhere close to being the same. It very clearly just isn't.

Quote

Though, fair enough. Let me point out the same thing but the other way around. Nothing advertised was directly associated with the event. No story, no story achievements, etc. You did not have to run it to get access to everything advertised.

And let's go a step further even. Extremely few things were locked behind a successful DS run. The key currency, the key draw of the event was drip fed along the way. Success was genuinely optional. A bit more rewarding. But not necessary to make serious progress towards the rewards associated with it.

I fail to see the validity of the point you're trying to make with this. Each of the reward acquisition method has to be specified before the release for some reason?

Edited June 4, 2022 by Sobx.1758

[Erise.5614]

2 minutes ago, Sobx.1758 said:

"key feature"? It's vague enough term for you to use to make it whatever you want it to be. The fact remains that this comparinson makes next to no sense for what each of those things do, no matter how many times you'll try to pretend it's anywhere close to being the same. It very clearly just isn't.

Truly a mystery how anyone could think the turtle was a big part of the expansion.

[yoni.7015]

4 minutes ago, Erise.5614 said:

Truly a mystery how anyone could think the turtle was a big part of the expansion.

Well, a fishing rod on a cup would look weird. 
Of course the turtle was a part of the expansion. But by no means comparable to gliding, which was essential for a lot of things in HoT, the turtle isn’t that important for EoD. 

Edited June 4, 2022 by yoni.7015

[Sobx.1758]

14 minutes ago, Erise.5614 said:

Truly a mystery how anyone could think the turtle was a big part of the expansion.

Truly great way to avoid responding to what was written and then pretend that anyone deserves a reward easly or by default because it was on a graphic/ad.

Seriously, what even is this take supposed to be? "It was advertised as part of expansion, so I need to get it fast/easly/however I want"? Since when is that a fact? Because thats literally what you keep trying to hammer through with what you're repeating here. Meanwhile I never argued with "turtles were used in advertising", of course they were. But it doesn't change a single thing about what was being said here nor does it somehow bind its acquisition method to be whatever you want it to be.

Edited June 4, 2022 by Sobx.1758

[Erise.5614]

43 minutes ago, Sobx.1758 said:

Truly great way to avoid responding to what was written and then pretend that anyone deserves a reward easly or by default because it was on a graphic/ad.

Seriously, what even is this take supposed to be? "It was advertised as part of expansion, so I need to get it fast/easly/however I want"? Since when is that a fact? Because thats literally what you keep trying to hammer through with what you're repeating here. Meanwhile I never argued with "turtles were used in advertising", of course they were. But it doesn't change a single thing about what was being said here nor does it somehow bind its acquisition method to be whatever you want it to be.

I'm currently not complaining about the acquisition method. 

I'm making a point about how ANet very deliberately designed the expansion in such a way that the vast majority would be drawn into DE because all different kinds of progression systems lead directly into it.

Story, OW achievements, story achievements, specialization collections, turtle, legendaries.

The only people not very directly lead into DE are PvP/WvW and instanced content players. Pretty much everyone else has DE participation in the critical path. 

Edit: Which, combined with the fact that they expected average groups to fail, is not a great idea in my humble opinion.

Edited June 4, 2022 by Erise.5614

[Zaraki.5784]

What about people who like longer metas? There is plenty of short metas already. Where you see a problem in dragon's end meta, I see variety.

Edited June 4, 2022 by Zaraki.5784

[Linken.6345]

11 minutes ago, Erise.5614 said:

I'm currently not complaining about the acquisition method. 

I'm making a point about how ANet very deliberately designed the expansion in such a way that the vast majority would be drawn into DE because all different kinds of progression systems lead directly into it.

Story, OW achievements, story achievements, specialization collections, turtle, legendaries.

The only people not very directly lead into DE are PvP/WvW and instanced content players. Pretty much everyone else has DE participation in the critical path. 

Edit: Which, combined with the fact that they expected average groups to fail, is not a great idea in my humble opinion.

So exactly the same things that drew people into dragon stand then so what is the problem again?

[Erise.5614]

9 minutes ago, Linken.6345 said:

So exactly the same things that drew people into dragon stand then so what is the problem again?

DS was not directly integrated into the personal story. It was not integrated into personal story achievements, it did not unlock any of the expansion features. 

So, no. There is some overlap. But there were fewer in DS. Most notably, people who just followed typically very achievable OW / Story content were not lead directly into it. Only players looking for unique stats, a new rune or legendary items. Only experienced players. 

Also, the DPS check is higher in DE, even adjusted for power creep and even when accounting for the map buffs. Which is why DS was more reasonable to learn while DE will remain in its current state of popularity or lower long term. 

Edited June 4, 2022 by Erise.5614

[IAmNotMatthew.1058]

17 minutes ago, Erise.5614 said:

DS was not directly integrated into the personal story. It was not integrated into personal story achievements

You don't need to do the meta to get the achievement.

18 minutes ago, Erise.5614 said:

it did not unlock any of the expansion features. 

What expansion features are locked behind DE?

19 minutes ago, Erise.5614 said:

So, no. There is some overlap. But there were fewer in DS. Most notably, people who just followed typically very achievable OW / Story content were not lead directly into it. Only players looking for unique stats, a new rune or legendary items. Only experienced players. 

And people who wanted to get their elite spec's weapon, since those elite spec weapons require you to do DS.

19 minutes ago, Erise.5614 said:

Also, the DPS check is higher in DE, even adjusted for power creep and even when accounting for the map buffs. Which is why DS was more reasonable to learn while DE will remain in its current state of popularity or lower long term. 

I still see people struggle to kill the pod bosses even today, let's not pretend DS is some smooth sailing HoT era Pinata. 

[Erise.5614]

9 minutes ago, IAmNotMatthew.1058 said:

You don't need to do the meta to get the achievement.

 

It doesn't need to be successful but you must fight Soo Won.

9 minutes ago, IAmNotMatthew.1058 said:

What expansion features are locked behind DE?

Again. Turtle was originally locked behind success and is still very much expecting anyone to play DE. 

Deliberate avoidance is convoluted and even with continuous failure you're faster farming DE than going the other route. In practice, the vendor is a pity system. Not something that will be used by a significant amount of players to avoid the DE meta. Especially not those who would be served best if they were not lured in with false expectations. 

9 minutes ago, IAmNotMatthew.1058 said:

I still see people struggle to kill the pod bosses even today, let's not pretend DS is some smooth sailing HoT era Pinata. 

Oh, no doubt. But that's because guilds have mostly abandoned it. It's mostly pure PUGs with 3 random commanders. None of those guilds who join with 30% of the max players and call it a pug. 

I didn't check the precise number recently but it's somewhere between 50%-70% the requirements of DE and only really needed of like 15 people. 

Edited June 4, 2022 by Erise.5614

[IAmNotMatthew.1058]

1 minute ago, Erise.5614 said:

It doesn't need to be successful but you must fight Soo Won.

What's the problem exactly? You are not locked out of getting the achievement.

2 minutes ago, Erise.5614 said:

Again. Turtle was originally locked behind success and is still very much expecting anyone to play DE. 

Is it locked behind the meta? No. Then why do you bring it up? 

2 minutes ago, Erise.5614 said:

Deliberate avoidance is convoluted and even with continuous failure you're faster farming DE than going the other route. In practice, the vendor is a pity system. 

You don't get it. You still have to pay for the egg. A pity system would hand the egg to you for FREE after a set amount of fails. 
They allow you to buy the egg.

4 minutes ago, Erise.5614 said:

Not something that will be used by a significant amount of players to avoid the DE meta. 

The option is there, don't blame the system for a player's inaction. 

5 minutes ago, Erise.5614 said:

Especially not those who would be served best if they were not lured in with false expectations. 

A false expectation of what? Being handed the turtle for free just because it was used in the promotion? McDonalds uses BigMacs for promotion, am I meant to barge in expecting a free BigMac, because "you used it to advertise"?

6 minutes ago, Erise.5614 said:

Oh, no doubt. But that's because guilds have mostly abandoned it. It's really just PUGs. 

So.. afterall DS isn't as easy as you originally painted it to be.

10 minutes ago, Erise.5614 said:

I didn't check the precise number recently but it's somewhere between 50%-70% the requirements of DE and only really needed of like 15 people. 

If it was 50-70% less people wouldn't be struggling on it.

[Mickey.4207]

18 hours ago, Goettel.4389 said:

Don't pretend to speak for all 'customers', you do you.

OP didn't and yet hit a nerve with you for some reason 

[Erise.5614]

38 minutes ago, IAmNotMatthew.1058 said:

What's the problem exactly? You are not locked out of getting the achievement.

Is it locked behind the meta? No. Then why do you bring it up? 

Because it's still directly related to participation. In the case of the turtle, expecting repeated participation if you failed. Which is still a tremendous waste of time and a very bad experience.

38 minutes ago, IAmNotMatthew.1058 said:

You don't get it. You still have to pay for the egg. A pity system would hand the egg to you for FREE after a set amount of fails. 

Yeah, I'm really not getting that definition. Like, sure. Some of them work that way. But I did say it acts more like a pity system. There is a cost, but that cost isn't gold. It's a mat you must farm or convert into. So probably playing the event several times. And since one still needs to buy the egg it means having failed the event several times. So let's agree on calling it a pity system with extra steps. 

It may not be exactly your definition of a pity system. But it is designed as a fallback for repeated failure more so than as a convenient way to circumvent the meta entirely. The meta is very much designed as the most central piece of content in the expansion. 

38 minutes ago, IAmNotMatthew.1058 said:

A false expectation of what? Being handed the turtle for free just because it was used in the promotion? McDonalds uses BigMacs for promotion, am I meant to barge in expecting a free BigMac, because "you used it to advertise"?

You do understand that everyone did pay money for the expansion, right?

When I go to McDonals, see a promotion for a BigMac, pay for the BigMac. Then yeah. I very much do expect to have access to a BigMac within a reasonable amount of time. 

38 minutes ago, IAmNotMatthew.1058 said:

So.. afterall DS isn't as easy as you originally painted it to be.

If it was 50-70% less people wouldn't be struggling on it.

In combination, those two sentences are weird. Saying it's harder than I made it out to be while saying my statement is wrong because it's harder than I claim?

DS has a lower DPS requirement than DE. That doesn't make it a walk in the park. But you don't need as much raw output. As few as 3 high DPS players can do it without too much of a hassle. Or equivalents of less knowledgeable players. It's really not comparable with DE which needs somewhere around 9k average during the moments you can attack. And my personal record for lowest average phase DPS is 12.2k. 

A DS map can still succeed with somewhere around 6k - 8k map average. If the players who move in the center have some experience and coordination is half way decent. Maps struggle because of a lack of experience. Specifically with surviving in the center arena while fighting the pod bosses. But DPS requirements are very manageable to overcome. If you keep your DPS uptime high it's very possible even at relatively low DPS numbers. Which is different to DE in a lot of ways. Surviving is easier and therefore DPS potential more important than DPS uptime. As it's quite high by default.  

Edited June 4, 2022 by Erise.5614

[Linken.6345]

Well seems to me stuff was locked behind ds meta aswell

 

Dragon's Stand: Mouth of Mordremoth Master

Slay the Mouth of Mordremoth in Dragon's Stand in under 20 minutes.

 Dragon's Stand: Mouth of Mordremoth Slayey

 Slay the Mouth of Mordremoth in Dragon's Stand. 

Compared to the True Ending you linked you actualy have to finish the meta.

 

[Erise.5614]

15 minutes ago, Linken.6345 said:

Well seems to me stuff was locked behind ds meta aswell

 

Dragon's Stand: Mouth of Mordremoth Master

Slay the Mouth of Mordremoth in Dragon's Stand in under 20 minutes.

 Dragon's Stand: Mouth of Mordremoth Slayey

 Slay the Mouth of Mordremoth in Dragon's Stand. 

Compared to the True Ending you linked you actualy have to finish the meta.

 

I am aware that various map specific achievements exist.

Which is why I specifically called out story achievements. Pulling people exactly while they are doing story to do the event. 

DS had nothing comparable. Those achievements are more comparable to the water dragon cape and its associated collection. Not to "True Ending".

Edited June 4, 2022 by Erise.5614

[IAmNotMatthew.1058]

37 minutes ago, Erise.5614 said:

Because it's still directly related to participation. In the case of the turtle, expecting repeated participation if you failed. Which is still a tremendous waste of time and a very bad experience.

Gather the currency without doing the meta, if it's such a giant waste of time don't do it. You don't want to waste your time don't do the thing that would waste your time. 
Alternatively if you are so desperate to do the meta then join a squad doing it.

42 minutes ago, Erise.5614 said:

Yeah, I'm really not getting that definition. Like, sure. Some of them work that way. But I did say it acts more like a pity system. There is a cost, but that cost isn't gold. It's a mat you must farm or convert into. So probably playing the event several times. And since one still needs to buy the egg it means having failed the event several times. So let's agree on calling it a pity system with extra steps. 

It may not be exactly your definition of a pity system. But it is designed as a fallback for repeated failure more so than as a convenient way to circumvent the meta entirely. The meta is very much designed as the most central piece of content in the expansion. 

If you pity someone and help them you don't ask for money. Some guy falls over on ice and struggle to gather his groceries back up you don't go to them and say "hey, I will help you get your groceries back in the bag for 30€". 
If the game offers you an alternative way, that requires you to still do some content then it's not pity.

45 minutes ago, Erise.5614 said:

You do understand that everyone did pay money for the expansion, right?

When I go to McDonals, see a promotion for a BigMac, pay for the BigMac. Then yeah. I very much do expect to have access to a BigMac within a reasonable amount of time. 

I'm not dumb, despite what you think. 
But you misused my example. You saw McDonalds use BigMac as advertisement, you didn't buy it. You bought something, but expect a BigMac with it, because it was used as promotion.
You saw an expansion, you bought it, you saw the turtle used as promotion and now you are demanding being handed the turtle for free, because of promotion.

51 minutes ago, Erise.5614 said:

In combination, those two sentences are weird. Saying it's harder than I made it out to be while saying my statement is wrong because it's harder than I claim?

I mentioned that people still struggle on the pod bosses despite DS "not being hard" according to you, to which you claimed it's because it's only pugs. 
Then you claimed that DS is 50-70% of the requirements of DE, if that's true then people wouldn't be struggling with it.
Also, on this part, removing the experienced layer leads to struggles.... hmm, see? It happens in other metas as well, not only DE.

53 minutes ago, Erise.5614 said:

DS has a lower DPS requirement than DE. That doesn't make it a walk in the park. But you don't need as much raw output. As few as 3 high DPS players can do it without too much of a hassle. Or equivalents of less knowledgeable players. It's really not comparable with DE which needs somewhere around 9k average during the moments you can attack. And my personal record for lowest average phase DPS is 12.2k. 

A DS map can still succeed with somewhere around 6k - 8k map average. If the players who move in the center have some experience and coordination is half way decent. Maps struggle because of a lack of experience. Specifically with surviving in the center arena while fighting the pod bosses. But DPS requirements are very manageable to overcome. If you keep your DPS uptime high it's very possible even at relatively low DPS numbers. Which is different to DE in a lot of ways. 

DS has lower requirements than DE, despite the DPS requirements being nearly identical? Keep in mind that DE's DPS requirement has the 25% boos calculated into it. Your 9k average quickly turns into 6.75k, which is right in the middle of DS. You also forgot that those boosts also provide you with boons. 
On top of that, DE's split(Greens) is not as harsh on those who don't know the mechanic as the entirety of the Blighting Pods in DS. 

56 minutes ago, Erise.5614 said:

Surviving is easier and therefore DPS potential more important than DPS uptime. As it's quite high by default.  

Don't stand in red and surviving will be easier in DE than you think. 
 

[Erise.5614]

37 minutes ago, IAmNotMatthew.1058 said:

If you pity someone and help them you don't ask for money. Some guy falls over on ice and struggle to gather his groceries back up you don't go to them and say "hey, I will help you get your groceries back in the bag for 30€". 
If the game offers you an alternative way, that requires you to still do some content then it's not pity.

A pity system is a common game design term popularized by the 2012 Diablo 3 which used a random gear drop system. But making sure there can not be negative extremes by providing a guaranteed legendary item after a certain amount of bad luck draws. The system is taking pity on people who have worse luck than intended. 

Basically, a pity system just means you are guaranteed to get the reward you are looking for... eventually. 

37 minutes ago, IAmNotMatthew.1058 said:

I'm not dumb, despite what you think. 
But you misused my example. You saw McDonalds use BigMac as advertisement, you didn't buy it. You bought something, but expect a BigMac with it, because it was used as promotion.
You saw an expansion, you bought it, you saw the turtle used as promotion and now you are demanding being handed the turtle for free, because of promotion.

Still hard yes. If I see promotional material with a BigMac, purchase whatever is promoted and then don't get a BigMac. That is literally false advertising and very much illegal.

37 minutes ago, IAmNotMatthew.1058 said:

I mentioned that people still struggle on the pod bosses despite DS "not being hard" according to you, to which you claimed it's because it's only pugs. 
Then you claimed that DS is 50-70% of the requirements of DE, if that's true then people wouldn't be struggling with it.
Also, on this part, removing the experienced layer leads to struggles.... hmm, see? It happens in other metas as well, not only DE.

It's hard because players don't play coordinated and don't react quickly enough. Though, make no mistake. The vast majority of them still succeed. Even if they struggle. Experienced  players with the DPS I mentioned will have no problem clearing the event.

On DE. A map of experienced players with that DPS is guaranteed to fail.

Whereas a map full of players who never tried to beat the meta but who deal high DPS (let's say 15k). They will have zero issue succeeding on their first try. 

37 minutes ago, IAmNotMatthew.1058 said:

DS has lower requirements than DE, despite the DPS requirements being nearly identical? Keep in mind that DE's DPS requirement has the 25% boos calculated into it. Your 9k average quickly turns into 6.75k, which is right in the middle of DS. You also forgot that those boosts also provide you with boons. 

Your comparison is wrong and so is your math.

Percentage calculations are not commutative. X + 25% = Y is not Y - 25% = X. The number you were trying to calculate is 7.2k. 

And you only need 2-5 players per lane to have that performance. So only the top 6 - 15 players need that performance. Average map DPS can be somewhere around 4-5k. And if the center players aren't up to par you can send a few more to fix that problem and still succeed within the time limit. Not seen that happen in years but there you go.

You can still fail by failing mechanics. But it's a real challenge to fail due to lack of DPS. 

37 minutes ago, IAmNotMatthew.1058 said:

On top of that, DE's split(Greens) is not as harsh on those who don't know the mechanic as the entirety of the Blighting Pods in DS. 

I mean. DE's split would be minibosses, no? Greens are just a spectacle gimmick.

But anyway. DS is just more punishing on a personal level in this regard. You have the freedom to fail, die and get back to the group several times without seriously affecting the chances to win. Again. It's the reverse of DE.

DE has less demanding and less involved mechanics than several other meta events. It just needs more DPS than any before. By quite a margin.

Edited June 5, 2022 by Erise.5614

[Ashen.2907]

2 hours ago, Erise.5614 said:

It doesn't need to be successful but you must fight Soo Won.

Again. Turtle was originally locked behind success and is still very much expecting anyone to play DE. 

Deliberate avoidance is convoluted and even with continuous failure you're faster farming DE than going the other route. In practice, the vendor is a pity system. Not something that will be used by a significant amount of players to avoid the DE meta. Especially not those who would be served best if they were not lured in with false expectations. 

Oh, no doubt. But that's because guilds have mostly abandoned it. It's mostly pure PUGs with 3 random commanders. None of those guilds who join with 30% of the max players and call it a pug. 

I didn't check the precise number recently but it's somewhere between 50%-70% the requirements of DE and only really needed of like 15 people. 

I heal/support for the Kaineng Overloook strike frequently, multiple times per day. Often one run right after another. I do this specifically to help people trying to get their turtle (I have posted in the bug forum about the timer issue currently impacting normal mode for KO). My experience talking to hundreds of people indicates that a large number of people are in fact using the vendor rather than completing DE. Hundreds of people per week may be a small sample size, but do you have anything better to show otherwise?

[HotDelirium.7984]

ArenaNet is not Burger King;  you can't always get it your way. They provide a game service and an MMO on PC is not a mobile game that you can plug-n-play and turn off when you wish while succeeding no matter what. To put that kind of pressure and expectation on them is inappropriate. They respect our time and yet have limitations and guidelines when it comes to servicing ALL customers with varying lengths of time investments. It's an MMO after all and not a single player game you can save whenever and however. If you don't like it- you don't like it...what do you want US to do.

Edited June 5, 2022 by HotDelirium.7984

[ArchonWing.9480]

14 hours ago, Ashen.2907 said:

I see.

 

So, for the 30 minutes spent in DS to be rewarding I would need to first spend a much more significant amount of time farming the keys. Again, not defending DE rewards because I dont find that meta rewarding, but having to spend hours, days, or more farming to get machetes before DS will be at all rewarding does not sound better. Sounds much worse to me.

Well, you can arrive a little late in DS *cough*. I can't say the same for the other events.

When going for the Shining Blade (Gen 2.5 Legendary) it only took several runs using only machetes from the hero's choice chest and https://wiki.guildwars2.com/wiki/Ley-Energy_Matter_Converter

 to get the needed Ore.

I could not use the other HoT currencies to buy machetes because I actually needed them too.

But in any case, it's not too bad by any means. However, if you don't care about anything in that area, then yes, there's little reason for you to care. I just don't think a lack of machetes should hold one back.

And I also hate that time limit they give you to loot everything. Yea I know it was shorter in the past.

Edited June 5, 2022 by ArchonWing.9480

[Erise.5614]

6 hours ago, Ashen.2907 said:

I heal/support for the Kaineng Overloook strike frequently, multiple times per day. Often one run right after another. I do this specifically to help people trying to get their turtle (I have posted in the bug forum about the timer issue currently impacting normal mode for KO). My experience talking to hundreds of people indicates that a large number of people are in fact using the vendor rather than completing DE. Hundreds of people per week may be a small sample size, but do you have anything better to show otherwise?

Oh yes. I've very much seen that too!

The question is how they got their Writs of Dragon's End. Did they do daily conversions for 22 days? Did they farm pre events for 15 hours? Or did they fail the meta like 3 times?

I'm saying, most people I have talked to have failed the meta a few times and got their Writs that way. The merchant is a way to assure they will get it after a certain amount of failures more so than a way to avoid the event entirely.

After all, it's not like people who just enter the map would know they are underequipped and should avoid it. 

[Erise.5614]

6 hours ago, HotDelirium.7984 said:

ArenaNet is not Burger King;  you can't always get it your way. They provide a game service and an MMO on PC is not a mobile game that you can plug-n-play and turn off when you wish while succeeding no matter what. To put that kind of pressure and expectation on them is inappropriate. They respect our time and yet have limitations and guidelines when it comes to servicing ALL customers with varying lengths of time investments. It's an MMO after all and not a single player game you can save whenever and however. If you don't like- you don't like...what do you want US to do.

Oh absolutely! I don't expect you to do anything and not all content being for all players is absolutely fair! For example, raids are fine! They were advertised and due to the name also assumed as hardcore content so everyone can make an educated decision about whether or not that content is for them. 

Different kinds of content are fine too!

But please. No expansion features locked behind it. If it's not accessible and not explicitly labeled hardcore content then don't advertise it. Especially not as main feature with graphics and its own web page, it's own merchandise and all that jazz. And if it's not meant for all players, don't have the personal story lead into the event. 

It's not a problem that DE exists. The problem is how DE exists. Either it needs to differentiate itself and not pull players as strongly for several kinds of critical paths that have nothing to do with high combat performance. Or it needs to be in line with other meta events that are possible to accomplish for groups of such players. 

[Sobx.1758]

12 hours ago, Erise.5614 said:

I'm currently not complaining about the acquisition method. 

I'm making a point about how ANet very deliberately designed the expansion in such a way that the vast majority would be drawn into DE because all different kinds of progression systems lead directly into it.

Story, OW achievements, story achievements, specialization collections, turtle, legendaries.

The only people not very directly lead into DE are PvP/WvW and instanced content players. Pretty much everyone else has DE participation in the critical path.

...what? You pretty clearly are complaining  about some rewards being bound to the meta. Even in the last post all you've done was link to an image with the turtle (after trying to compare it to the gliding in relation to HoT, which -again- is clearly different for what these things do in the game, as well as complaining that it's acquired through meta -or even just participation in the last map of the expansion- and it shouldn't be because.... I guess because it was used in an ad?), how is this suddenly not complaining about exactly that?

Edited June 5, 2022 by Sobx.1758

[Moradorin.6217]

On 6/3/2022 at 9:14 PM, Blue D Phoenix.7260 said:

Most events are casual friendly, there are some which takes an hour or more, especially metas. Both are fun. It would be boring if all events are just small ones.

 

Besides it's more entertaining that way, having both short and long metas.

Long and short is fine. 2 hours long with a 70-80% chance it fails is NOT fine. Its a serious problem even in a vacuum, but add to it the other issues like class balance, wvw alliance, no guild mission overhauls, no levendary armor skin fix, etc, etc. Then its a really serious problem!