Would you be ok with an in-game DPS-meter if it only showed your own numbers?

[Fuchslein.8639]

17 hours ago, Khisanth.2948 said:

No because DPS numbers in a vacuum are nearly useless and potentially harmful.

Without facts people just make stuff up. This was already proven back before arc existed. Sticking your head in the sand will not make those types of people go away.

Only seeing your own numbers will give misleading ideas. "Wow this build is awesome! It does 2000 DPS, the previous one only did 1000 ...". Relatively speaking sure but in the full spectrum it is not. Other than timed content a 2000 DPS build still "works" it just ends up taking a lot more effort. A 1 million HP enemy with 9m limit requires less than 2000 DPS.

Oh gosh i remember when raids came out. Everyone wanted ele's and when a boss Was not killed i as a Rev was at fault ... the faces as arc came and the ele in my group did less dmg than me and a friend running our Rev and also finaly we could Show that we got no boons from the chrono, lol.

For me, arc dps is the best gw2 could ever get.

[Gehenna.3625]

9 hours ago, Silent.6137 said:

Nope. But then there's a lot of things that are unnecessary as well. We have it as QoL, convenience, interest, etc. Does it hurt to have it as part of the client?

What I'm getting at is that this may not be viable from the points of view of resources, performance and expectations. You see every time a game developer puts resources into something they need to assign a value to it in the sense of does it add something to the game that will benefit enough players or their vision for the game and does it fit in with their philosophy.

Let's say the do add this in the game itself. Any performance loss becomes their responsibility (and yes adding something to the UI can cause performance loss). Any limitations it has will become their responsibility and it also will mean more complaints about the limitation. When you give players an inch...

So do they even want to do this, knowing all that? I suspect not; and they probably wouldn't want to touch this with a 10-foot pole. 

I mean, does it hurt to have it as part of the client? Probably yes. I don't think any MMO has a DPS meter as part of their game, at least none of the AAA ones. Ask yourself why? 

[mikansei.5742]

I would love it if a DPS meter comparable to Arc existed natively ingame.

Given how build templates turned out, I do not ever want Anet to try to implement a DPS meter natively ingame.

This falls firmly in the category of "it ain't broke so dear god please don't try to fix it" for me.

[Gregg.3970]

23 hours ago, lokh.2695 said:

Hi there,

basically what the topic says.

Would you be ok with an in-game DPS-meter, given it would only show your own metrics? Most arguments against DPS-meters are that 1) ppl feel spied upon and 2) that ppl fear exclusion if their numbers don't fit whatever other players see as "good DPS". Now if the meter only showed personal numbers I think both these arguments stop to matter.

Discuss.

Yes most definitely. 

My main reason for using the primary dps meter that a large % of Gw2 players use was born out of this single scenario >>>

1) initially in 2012 made Ele as my 1st and only char, needless to say couldn't get to grips with it, got kicked from squads/groups a lot as *my DPS wasn't upto par* so caused me to quit for 5 years. 

2) Came back 5 years later, did a little profession research looking for a profession that's easy to play, can manage well solo and group play, so made Reaper as I figured it's a no-brainer to play, viable in most game modes, fits most game modes, albeit master of none! 

3) Deciding on Reaper I watched loads of Holts YouTube  (guy is a legend imo) and formed my build, 1st full set asc gear around a roaming WvW Repear Build as I love WvW. 

4) Then without thought hurr-durr (my bad ikr as my entire build/ gear was optimised for solo WvW roaming ) entered fractals, ranked up to Tier 4 in break-net speed and got insta kicked, without warning several times which perplexed me completely as I knew all mechanics well. 

5) So I whispered or sent PM's to the dudes that had kicked me asking what I'd done wrong and they all replied along the lines "your DPS is too low", "your DPS sucks dude", "I'm playing support and my DPS is better than yours" - You get the picture! 

6) I didn't even know DPS meters existed at that point, let alone other players could monitor my own DPS - when I learnt that pretty much all players in Fractals and Raids use a third party DPS tool, my first thought was Gw2 needs to make an in-house meter to avoid the trap I fell into. 

7) Anyways I thanked the guys that had kicked me for their opinion and reason why they had kicked me and because of that I... 

😎Installed DPS meter myself

9) Reworked all my weapons, gear, runes, sigils, traits, build purposefully for fractals

10) RAID golem solo practice constantly watching the DPS meter numbers until I was happy : this actually helped me develop my key & mouse bind muscle memory really quickly (really not hard on reaper ikr lol, but when you're a fresh returning noob it's a must)

11) Jumped back into Fractals,  and very quickly once I was watching the other players DPS I made a CFB a few weeks later, and decided Reaper not optimal enough for CM's so never returned to Fracs with it

12)... FFWD 5 years later of CFB in Fracs, I've never once been kicked (neither have I ever kicked another player due to low DPS, just given them constructive criticism), and most of the time I'm top 1 or 2 DPS which really only came about from having the DPS meter in the first place, theory crafting different builds, hours spent monitoring different builds on Raid Golems. 

TLDR: I turned a negative situation, well many, from being kicked many times from groups into a positive that is the Holy Grail in group content: DPS Meter.

@Anet: It's a little beyond me why you haven't already implemented an in-house DPS meter that players can freely enable OR disable as they see fit, to avoid the scenario that I went through. 

Edited June 7, 2022 by Gregg.3970

[Dagger.2035]

It would be nice to have a basic personal DPS meter in GW2.  I’m not willing to risk installing 3rd party tools.

[Bingus.4236]

12 hours ago, Elricht Kaltwind.8796 said:

How hard is it really to add up the floating damage numbers over a second?

 

It's a bit troublesome if you're doing the adding up on paper.

[Xainou.1502]

Nope.

I use arcdps for so much more. Like improving myself compared to others, getting an idea of which role everyone is playing, how well boons are covered in which subgroup, ...

[Dayra.7405]

17 hours ago, Sobx.1758 said:

Who and why would want to "spy on your behavior"? ...

Obviously at least anyone in this thread who wants to see numbers not only for her-/himself.

Why do you care about visiblity of others, if you don't want to see others?

[Sobx.1758]

1 hour ago, Dayra.7405 said:

Obviously at least anyone in this thread who wants to see numbers not only for her-/himself.

Why do you care about visiblity of others, if you don't want to see others?

Why did you decide to skip the whole post while also completely avoiding the context of this comment chain?

Here's the reminder of the context: you've tried to claim that you'd like "opt-in dps meter" because people would say "dps meter enabled" in the squad description, so you could avoid them. On the other hand you've been told you can already do it by creating/joining "all welcome" squads. Now you're trying to say that "it wouldn't stop them from spying on your behavior(?)". So for some reason you think that people that are bent on having a optimal/highly-performing squads would join random "everyone welcome" groups and then... try to force you to perform better? That just doesn't make sense. Those people have no business joining those squads in the first place since they clearly collide with their own goals.

It also has nothing to do with being "a spy software". What exactly do you have to hide when you willingfully join a group of players with specific descriptions?

Edited June 7, 2022 by Sobx.1758

[Ashen.2907]

10 hours ago, Silent.6137 said:

If it's not mine, from my actions, then whose is it? Yours?

If you meant Anet owns the game, it is still data that is a direct result of what I do. If you'd to craft a legendary item, isn't it your item even if you have no legal ownership of it? Within the parameter of the game, I certainly do own the data.

 

I mean that the info is on public display, arc only looks at what is publicly visible. This post is the result of what I do, typing out a comment, that does not mean that it belongs to me. It does not mean that I would have any right to determine who is allowed to read it. Overall arc makes it easier to see the consequences of your actions as they relate to a target. If I jump off of a roof and land on a public flower bed I do not get to decide who gets to see the impression of my face in the soil.

[Dayra.7405]

2 hours ago, Sobx.1758 said:

It also has nothing to do with being "a spy software".

Spy software collects available information about people without their agreement, usually not even asking them, and aggregates and statistically evaluate these information. Fits a dpsmeter that collects infos about other, without giving them an option to turn that of very well.

 

2 hours ago, Sobx.1758 said:

What exactly do you have to hide when you willingfully join a group of players with specific descriptions?

Never saw a group description with: We will evaluate anyone in the group to optimize you for our criteria. I in fact would never join them, still I heared a lot of comments about people's DPS performance I never wanted to hear.

 

And as with privacy violation in the internet or society: You don't have to hide something to be against it. This is a funny movie about how the society will be, if this optimization behaviour becomes common practise https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Nosedive_(Black_Mirror)

 

I want to decide when and if and according to which criteria I want to optimize, and the best way to reach that is: don't provide others with the data that enable them to do.

 

And don't worry that I could join public T4 Fraktals, public raids or public strikes. I don't want to come close to these optimizers. Unfortunately, one hits them everywhere, the worser they are, the harder they blame.

Edited June 7, 2022 by Dayra.7405

[Sobx.1758]

26 minutes ago, Dayra.7405 said:

Spy software collects available information about people without their agreement, usually not even asking them, and aggregates and statistically evaluate these information. Fits a dpsmeter that collects infos about other, without giving them an option to turn that of very well.

You're joining a group and people can see you hitting the target, if they'd so desire, they could stop hitting that target and see exactly hoiw fast the hp bar is depleting. All the meters do is make the data easier readable. Nothing about it is somehow invading your privacy or spying on you. Your "option to turn that off" is to not play in the groups you don't want to play in. Isn't this the argument you were going for. And -once again- you can be sure that anyone requiring great performance from other players won't join "everyone welcome players" and then act surprised that they're suboptimal. This whole argument about people potentially joining these chill squads "just to spy on you" is misguided and goes directly against what it is claimed they want. Is there anything you doin't understand about it? Because once again you've avoided major parts talking about it in my post in your responses. Will you avoid it now too? Does it mean you don't understand what I'm saying? Or that you understand it is correct and you have nothing to respond to that? Or maybe something else? Please clear out what's your reasoning for repeatedly dodging it.

Quote

And as with privacy violation in the internet or society: You don't have to hide something to be against it.

This has nothing to do with your privacy, stop overusing terms in a sole attempt to pretend it's some kind of legal issue -or even close to being one- when it's not.

Quote

I want to decide when and if and according to which criteria I want to optimize, and the best way to reach that is: don't provide others with the data that enable them to do.

No, the best way to do it is to join/create groups according to your wishes. As anyone else already does or can do. And what is exactly the thing you've mentioned a few posts above you'd still do with this change anyways. You don't get to dictate what someone else's group should do. You do get to dictate what your group does OR you get to join the group that already does what you want them to do anyways.

Edited June 7, 2022 by Sobx.1758

[Dayra.7405]

23 minutes ago, Sobx.1758 said:

You do get to dictate what your group does.

Dictate? I want to switch off, that others see my combat infos. That's it.

Edited June 7, 2022 by Dayra.7405

[Sobx.1758]

27 minutes ago, Dayra.7405 said:

Dictate? I want to switch off, that others see my combat infos. That's it.

That's great. Then in the exact same manner you think this would be a solution to your issue:

You can start creating squads with "no dps meters allowed" and still play with who you want anyways.

Edited June 7, 2022 by Sobx.1758

[Dayra.7405]

No, I don't know what they do, whatever I write in the title. I want to switch off that data about my behavior go to someone or anet should black-list and ban 3rd party tools that collect & aggregate them.

Edit: more precise formulation "data about my behavior"

 

Edited June 7, 2022 by Dayra.7405

[Sobx.1758]

14 minutes ago, Dayra.7405 said:

No, I don't know what they do, whatever I write in the title. I want to switch off that my data go to someone or anet should black-list and ban 3rd party tools that collect & aggregate them.

It's not your data, it's game's data. Again, it has nothing to do with your privacy or even anything "being yours" in the first place, so stop pretending it does.

Edited June 7, 2022 by Sobx.1758

[Jokuc.3478]

Absolutely not. Because they would probably get rid of ArcDPS and I refuse to play without dps meters.

[Sirius.4510]

Provided it didn't make things worse - i.e., they either didn't subsequently disallow other extensions such as Arc that do this, or they replaced all the functionality (the latter of which is unlikely, so the former would be preferred), I think I would be for it.

Yes, having a DPS meter is not terribly "immersive", but then, neither is seeing your damage numbers at all. And it could be confined to content where this is really necessary information, i.e. raids, strikes, and probably fractals. There's already an awful lot of very "game mechanic" stuff you need to know to beat those, so having real-time DPS measurements isn't going to make it any worse.

[Silent.6137]

3 hours ago, Ashen.2907 said:

I mean that the info is on public display, arc only looks at what is publicly visible. This post is the result of what I do, typing out a comment, that does not mean that it belongs to me. It does not mean that I would have any right to determine who is allowed to read it. Overall arc makes it easier to see the consequences of your actions as they relate to a target. If I jump off of a roof and land on a public flower bed I do not get to decide who gets to see the impression of my face in the soil.

Your analogy is kinda way out there. The data is not on public display. Your actions are.

Let me give you an analogy. You are speeding. Everyone can see you're speeding. They can even estimate your speed but they have no firm data on how fast. They can use a radar to determine your exact speed. That's what a DPS meter is akin to; a radar.

2 hours ago, Sobx.1758 said:

You can start creating squads with "no dps meters allowed" and still play with who you want anyways.

And how do you propose preventing others from using it even if you specify it as such?

1 hour ago, Sobx.1758 said:

It's not your data, it's game's data. Again, it has nothing to do with your privacy or even anything "being yours" in the first place, so stop pretending it does.

It's the game's data but it is also yours. It came from your actions. There are players who would rather strangers cannot just see how they perform or what they do. Within the game, the data is all yours. It belongs to you.

An analogy will be Anet is the owner of a building. You rented an apartment from it. That apartment is your home. Until you terminate the rental agreement or is evicted, no one else can enter without your permission. That is the very essence of privacy, and the rights to it.

Edited June 7, 2022 by Silent.6137

[kharmin.7683]

1 minute ago, Silent.6137 said:

An analogy will be Anet is the owner of a building. You rented an apartment from it. That apartment is your home. Until you terminate the rental agreement or is evicted, no one else can enter without your permission. That is the very essence to the right of privacy.

Except there is no right of privacy with Anet.  They can come in to your apartment, or even kick you out of it, at their leisure.

[Firebeard.1746]

Yes and no.

 

Sometimes when I care about character performance too much, DPS meters feel like they're turning the game into a chore, and that I have failed if I didn't hit a benchmark. I'm not talking about just this game, but MMOs in general. Combat feels way different when you're playing what feels good vs. being frantic. That being said, when DPS checks exist, not having access to them is essentially a handicap. 

It definitely takes off social pressure if others can't see your numbers if they're bad. But the issue with DPS meters isn't just social, though it's perhaps the worst of the 2 issues. 

[Silent.6137]

1 minute ago, kharmin.7683 said:

Except there is no right of privacy with Anet.  They can come in to your apartment, or even kick you out of it, at their leisure.

And yes, Anet can do so but without any justifications, it will be opening itself up for litigations. Do you think a company like that will do that without reasons? How long do you think a company like that will last? The legalese protects the players from arbitrary actions like that.

[Nidome.1365]

Any form of DPS meter is long terms toxic. Seen it in every other game, and you see it creeping into raids and strike missions here.

[kharmin.7683]

3 minutes ago, Silent.6137 said:

And yes, Anet can do so but without any justifications, it will be opening itself up for litigations. Do you think a company like that will do that without reasons? How long do you think a company like that will last? The legalese protects the players from arbitrary actions like that.

Have you read the terms of service?

[Nidome.1365]

2 hours ago, Sobx.1758 said:

It's not your data, it's game's data. Again, it has nothing to do with your privacy or even anything "being yours" in the first place, so stop pretending it does.

You give Anet the right to do what they want with the game data when you sign up for the game, you do not however give 3rd parties permission to your data. If a 3rd party is accessing someone's data without their permission then that could be a breach of data law depending upon what country they are in.