Living World Paywall

[robertthebard.8150]

4 minutes ago, Cuks.8241 said:

The post above is my post.

I just acknowledged that a LS2 can be found on the site now compared to the time I purchased it. So at least LS is mentioned but nothing is explained.

It is far from transparent. And "Get everything you need to experience Tyria, a vast living world. This collection includes Guild Wars 2 and all its expansions..." under Collection is still very miss leading and just false. Here we can start talking semantics again.

Is it semantics to point out that the LW seasons aren't expansions?  Posts like this are exactly why I'm posting in this thread.  You're getting exactly what's listed in the detailed breakdown.  When that doesn't happen, we'll have something to discuss with "people are being ripped off" or "but it's misleading".  You can, in fact, play both expansions w/out having to purchase any of the LW seasons.  I did.

[Shikigami.4013]

It's easy to dismiss the point of properly understanding language and facts as "semantics".

Quote

and then find they're being asked for even more money

They are not. They are asked for gems, which can be earned ingame. The fact that the gems themselves optionally can be bought with money if you WANT that, does not equal them asking for money.

Quote

Clear packaging of GW2 and its DLCs is better for everyone, so I'm not sure why some are fighting so hard against it.

Actually nobody does. Point me to a single post of someone fighting against ArenaNet being more clear. People are fighting against false claims that the episodes "cost money", or that ArenaNets practices are unlawful. Or other baseless speculations like the majority of new players leaving the game over this or people leaving massive amounts of negative feedback on steam.

Quote

Sure lets wrap this up in semantics. Great advertising. That explanation will go a long way when players need to open up wallets. 

They don't. If gems would only be available by buying them with real money, I would even agree with you, because then gems would effectively equal money. But they don't. Play the game -> earn the content. Gems are for the lazy, the impatient, the people who don't have enough time to play, the people who want instant gratification, the people who want more things than the are able to earn ingame, the people who just have enough money to spend it on things they want instead of earning it. Which is totally fine, I am not bashing people buying gems, I did it in the past just a few times. But they are never mandatory and ArenaNet is never requiring you to spend real money after you bought the expansions. And I never came to the forums to complain how much of a ripoff it is that I am paying for a game and then "have to" spend "even more money" to get appropriate storage space or character slots. Because nobody "has to".

Also, it's not like a new player does not have MASSIVE amounts of other content to go through first before even reaching the living story. When living world season 2 was released in 2014, people already had played the game for TWO YEARS.

 

PS: I am noticing that this is going in circles and no matter what, more people will come and say the same things like before, so I promise this is my last post in this thread 🙂

Edited June 9, 2022 by Shikigami.4013

[Ashen.2907]

1 hour ago, robertthebard.8150 said:

...and yet, when I ask "What is it that you didn't get that was listed on the page", I just get some confused emojis.  I guess because "Well, everything that was listed was delivered" doesn't fit into "I was ripped off"?

Perhaps you are getting those confused emojis because the topic post never said, "I was ripped off."

[robertthebard.8150]

3 minutes ago, Ashen.2907 said:

Perhaps you are getting those confused emojis because the topic post never said, "I was ripped off."

Yeah, because "it's misleading" or "false" has nothing to do with "I'm being ripped off", right?  Ironically, it's not even the topic post that I'm referring to.  I can direct quote a post, and get the same response.  The post you quoted here is a classic example, as is this one:

https://en-forum.guildwars2.com/topic/116031-living-world-paywall/page/5/?tab=comments#elControls_1678959_menu

I could go on.  I understand the confusion though:  "But everyone is just supposed to grab a pitchfork and join us at the bonfire when we say a gaming company is ripping people off or being misleading".  We're supposed to ignore the fact that "You will have to purchase the LW" statement comes up on the purchase screen because it's what, inconvenient?

I don't buy loot boxes because I don't know what's in them.  I didn't have this quandary when I bought the expansions.  I knew exactly what I was getting, and I got everything that was listed.  Like I've already said, by all means edit the page to indicate the LW purchases, but let's drop the hyperbole, to be polite.

[AgentMoore.9453]

'This is a nice example of a retreat to the motte.' @The Boz.2038

I had to look this one up since I've never heard of it before, but it's an incorrect application of the principle. The idea behind the Motte and Bailey fallacy is that there are two arguments being made and I'm only discussing the 'easy' one, but if you read OP's post, you'll find they're talking about clear packaging and how the lack of it feels deceptive which is the same point I was addressing:

'Look, this company needs to be up front with the costs to play it. I'm gonna be honest, had I known this would have cost more on top of the $75 already, I wouldn't have bought the game. Just feeling a bit deceived.'

So the issue isn't that LW costs money, it's that you don't find that out until you've already dropped money, usually on a 'complete' package that actually isn't.

1 hour ago, Shikigami.4013 said:

Point me to a single post of someone fighting against ArenaNet being more clear.

Considering you've made some of those posts yourself, I should think it'd be pretty easy for you to find them, but here you go:

'If you purchased any Ultimate Editions, you have Gems to spend on Living World Season(s).' <-- Implying the situation is fine and doesn't need changing because some editions come with gems
'i have literaly never paid a cent for living world, i mean you can get gems for gold IN game, so just go to world boses and silverwastes, farm a bit of gold and youre good to go' <-- The tired 'you can get it with in-game gold' angle that suggests the current situation is fine just because a technical workaround exists
'you get 400 gems every 5k AP aswell' <-- Another workaround, even less attainable for people looking to unlock content on their account
'If you want them, buy them.' <-- Ignoring the issue, which is that the costs are hidden
'On rare occasions, Arenanet also gives episodes out for free again.' - Ignoring the issue and also referencing a method that has been used a grand total of once in the history of the game
'You're getting exactly what's listed in the detailed breakdown.' <-- Somehow identifying the entire problem without realizing it's a problem - you aren't told about LW or its costs and are lead to believe you're getting everything when clearly you are not
'the living world episodes were never even for sale for real money. Paying for them with money by buying additional gems is for people who want gratification with no effort, like every other gemstore item' <-- I hope this one is familiar, because you wrote it.

There are quite a few more mental gymnastics like these both in this thread and across the forum and subreddit, including several repeat posts, all attempting to edge around the issue that LW is poorly marketed. I feel like it would be a lot easier for people to just say 'yeah it's not great, they should probably fix that' instead of trying to vilify every new player who posts here disappointed or confused by calling them ungrateful, lazy, or stupid.

It's great that there are workarounds available that allow people to gain access to LW, but it still needs to be advertised clearly at time of purchase.

[The Boz.2038]

54 minutes ago, AgentMoore.9453 said:

but if you read OP's post

I was addressing the conversation in progress, the topic at hand, not merely the OP of this particular thread. If you scroll up and read comments, you will easily see both mottes and baileys represented.

[Ashen.2907]

4 hours ago, robertthebard.8150 said:

Yeah, because "it's misleading" or "false" has nothing to do with "I'm being ripped off", right?  Ironically, it's not even the topic post that I'm referring to.  I can direct quote a post, and get the same response.  The post you quoted here is a classic example, as is this one:

https://en-forum.guildwars2.com/topic/116031-living-world-paywall/page/5/?tab=comments#elControls_1678959_menu

I could go on.  I understand the confusion though:  "But everyone is just supposed to grab a pitchfork and join us at the bonfire when we say a gaming company is ripping people off or being misleading".  We're supposed to ignore the fact that "You will have to purchase the LW" statement comes up on the purchase screen because it's what, inconvenient?

I don't buy loot boxes because I don't know what's in them.  I didn't have this quandary when I bought the expansions.  I knew exactly what I was getting, and I got everything that was listed.  Like I've already said, by all means edit the page to indicate the LW purchases, but let's drop the hyperbole, to be polite.

Yes, adding something to the page to imdicate that the expansions do not include the entirety of the main story would be a great idea....which was kind of the majority of the OP's point.

Personally I think that it is perfectly acceptible for a company to charge for the product of their labor (such as LW episodes). I dont even think that ANet are tryimg to mislead. I do think that it is a good idea to be more clear about hidden costs associated with playing the main story of a game. Perception is extremely important in sales and marketing. In other games that I have played DLC are generally side content. Not necessarily any less enjoyable than the main storyline, but also not necessary to get the full story included in the core game and purchased expansions.

My preference for the LW to be bundled with the expansions is more about marketing and sales than giving away free stuff. I would split the expacs up and charge for them separately, with LW bundled in to increased perceived value of each individual expac. If HoT and PoF are currently bundled at $30 for both, I might charge 17.99 to 18.99 each for them with the LW seasons bundled with the corresponding expac. This makes getting into the expanded GW2 experience cheaper up front to draw people in while having higher revenue potential overall without any single major hit to a new consumer's wallet.

Are you sure that there is a message that says, "you will have to buy the LW," on the expansion purchase screen?

[ShroomOneUp.6913]

20 hours ago, robertthebard.8150 said:

People still pay attention to Steam reviews after the Skyrim debacle?  You know, where they review bombed Vanilla Skyrim over the Creation Club, and you can't even access the Creation Club with Vanilla Skyrim, you at least need the Special Edition.  I treat reviews there the same way I do MetaCritic, I ignore them.

What I don't understand is why people continue to act as if Steam players don't know about games that aren't on Steam...

^yes, they do because A) skyrim is only one game and B) that was YEARS ago at this point. between then and now steam reviews have provided several times over a very accurate depiction of a games over all quality. just negate the creation club alone, NO MAN'S SKY went from a abysmal reviews to positive due to its constant updates. oh and that because steam reviews have been updated to reflect "over all" and "CURRENT" consensus on a games store page.

and to answer the question why people care about the steam reviews for gw2 when its not on there.....

ANET LITERALLY SAID THEY LOOKING FORWARD FOR THEIR STEAM RELEASE AS THEY ARE CURRENTLY WORKING ON IT AND ARE ANNOUNCING THE RELEASE DATE ON NEAR BY DATE

[Zera.9435]

ArenaNet is a BUSINESS, and businesses are FOR PROFIT. That being said, you can still get the LS stuff unlocked without spending any real money because you buy them with gems, which you can get with in-game gold. Developers need to eat too.

[Dante.1508]

18 hours ago, Shikigami.4013 said:

Unlock means you make the content available. The episodes are content that is bought. When you dont have the corresponding expansions you CAN NOT play them. When they are unlocked, you can play them (of course after you bought them).

It is exactly the same as ALL other content in the expansion that will be unlocked by purchasing the expansion and then earned in the game, which is what I described in detail.

Like you unlock MOUNTS by purchasing the expansion, but then you have to work for them in game and partly even buy them for a lot of gold (Griffon costs 250g). Just because the purchase of Path of Fire unlocked mounts for you does not entitle you to use mounts without earning/paying for them, and likewise the unlocking of the living world episodes does not entitle you to play them without paying for them.

Why is this such a difficult concept, I really don't get it. Why do so many people feel entitled to play the episodes that have to be purchased for free, but nobody feels entitled to get the griffon for free despite mounts also being "unlocked".

No to many unlock means it opens them up to use.. If you unlock a door or a gate you can walk through it, its either misinformation or badly worded on Anets part.

[The Boz.2038]

4 hours ago, Dante.1508 said:

If you unlock a door or a gate you can walk through it

I think you need to open it first...

[Inculpatus cedo.9234]

11 hours ago, ShroomOneUp.6913 said:

^yes, they do because A) skyrim is only one game and B) that was YEARS ago at this point. between then and now steam reviews have provided several times over a very accurate depiction of a games over all quality. just negate the creation club alone, NO MAN'S SKY went from a abysmal reviews to positive due to its constant updates. oh and that because steam reviews have been updated to reflect "over all" and "CURRENT" consensus on a games store page.

and to answer the question why people care about the steam reviews for gw2 when its not on there.....

ANET LITERALLY SAID THEY LOOKING FORWARD FOR THEIR STEAM RELEASE AS THEY ARE CURRENTLY WORKING ON IT AND ARE ANNOUNCING THE RELEASE DATE ON NEAR BY DATE

I seem to have missed the statement where ArenaNet  said they are 'ANNOUNCING THE RELEASE DATE ON NEAR BY DATE'.  Could you be so kind to post a link? 

Edited June 10, 2022 by Inculpatus cedo.9234
typo

[Linken.6345]

22 hours ago, DexterousGecko.6328 said:

I can't wait to see the steam forums when new players start to realize how the living world seasons work lol. "it's simple, why is it hard to understand?? stop being entitled." won't mean much then.

Wont happen because steam got this nifty feature

https://imgur.com/DF5NONP

18 hours ago, AgentMoore.9453 said:

'This is a nice example of a retreat to the motte.' @The Boz.2038

I had to look this one up since I've never heard of it before, but it's an incorrect application of the principle. The idea behind the Motte and Bailey fallacy is that there are two arguments being made and I'm only discussing the 'easy' one, but if you read OP's post, you'll find they're talking about clear packaging and how the lack of it feels deceptive which is the same point I was addressing:

'Look, this company needs to be up front with the costs to play it. I'm gonna be honest, had I known this would have cost more on top of the $75 already, I wouldn't have bought the game. Just feeling a bit deceived.'

So the issue isn't that LW costs money, it's that you don't find that out until you've already dropped money, usually on a 'complete' package that actually isn't.

Considering you've made some of those posts yourself, I should think it'd be pretty easy for you to find them, but here you go:

'If you purchased any Ultimate Editions, you have Gems to spend on Living World Season(s).' <-- Implying the situation is fine and doesn't need changing because some editions come with gems
'i have literaly never paid a cent for living world, i mean you can get gems for gold IN game, so just go to world boses and silverwastes, farm a bit of gold and youre good to go' <-- The tired 'you can get it with in-game gold' angle that suggests the current situation is fine just because a technical workaround exists
'you get 400 gems every 5k AP aswell' <-- Another workaround, even less attainable for people looking to unlock content on their account
'If you want them, buy them.' <-- Ignoring the issue, which is that the costs are hidden
'On rare occasions, Arenanet also gives episodes out for free again.' - Ignoring the issue and also referencing a method that has been used a grand total of once in the history of the game
'You're getting exactly what's listed in the detailed breakdown.' <-- Somehow identifying the entire problem without realizing it's a problem - you aren't told about LW or its costs and are lead to believe you're getting everything when clearly you are not
'the living world episodes were never even for sale for real money. Paying for them with money by buying additional gems is for people who want gratification with no effort, like every other gemstore item' <-- I hope this one is familiar, because you wrote it.

There are quite a few more mental gymnastics like these both in this thread and across the forum and subreddit, including several repeat posts, all attempting to edge around the issue that LW is poorly marketed. I feel like it would be a lot easier for people to just say 'yeah it's not great, they should probably fix that' instead of trying to vilify every new player who posts here disappointed or confused by calling them ungrateful, lazy, or stupid.

It's great that there are workarounds available that allow people to gain access to LW, but it still needs to be advertised clearly at time of purchase.

Kinda funny that none of those are fighting against Anet making it more clear on the purchase page just showing that you can get it without spending cash if you want.

Edited June 10, 2022 by Linken.6345

[robertthebard.8150]

17 hours ago, Ashen.2907 said:

Yes, adding something to the page to imdicate that the expansions do not include the entirety of the main story would be a great idea....which was kind of the majority of the OP's point.

Personally I think that it is perfectly acceptible for a company to charge for the product of their labor (such as LW episodes). I dont even think that ANet are tryimg to mislead. I do think that it is a good idea to be more clear about hidden costs associated with playing the main story of a game. Perception is extremely important in sales and marketing. In other games that I have played DLC are generally side content. Not necessarily any less enjoyable than the main storyline, but also not necessary to get the full story included in the core game and purchased expansions.

My preference for the LW to be bundled with the expansions is more about marketing and sales than giving away free stuff. I would split the expacs up and charge for them separately, with LW bundled in to increased perceived value of each individual expac. If HoT and PoF are currently bundled at $30 for both, I might charge 17.99 to 18.99 each for them with the LW seasons bundled with the corresponding expac. This makes getting into the expanded GW2 experience cheaper up front to draw people in while having higher revenue potential overall without any single major hit to a new consumer's wallet.

Are you sure that there is a message that says, "you will have to buy the LW," on the expansion purchase screen?

There are two posts in this thread that indicate that it is, in fact, there, and it's one post from each "side" of the discussion.  

[DexterousGecko.6328]

3 hours ago, Linken.6345 said:

Wont happen because steam got this nifty feature

https://imgur.com/DF5NONP

Kinda funny that none of those are fighting against Anet making it more clear on the purchase page just showing that you can get it without spending cash if you want.

you think they'll put the living world season in the dlc section? that would make it better for sure. I'm not convinced they won't try to keep the store separate like FXIV does with their cosmetic shop.

[Tchuvan.4251]

On 6/6/2022 at 10:11 PM, Inculpatus cedo.9234 said:

Curious...what did you purchase for $75?  Even the Collection (3 Expansions) is only $50.  If you purchased any Ultimate Editions, you have Gems to spend on Living World Season(s). 

Three expansions were $75, not $50, and no gems. With gems was $100.

[Silent.6137]

2 hours ago, Tchuvan.4251 said:

Three expansions were $75, not $50, and no gems. With gems was $100.

Collection Standard $49.99; Collection Deluxe $74.99; Collection Ultimate $99.99

• Option 1: Buy all for cash - $49.99 + $60 (4,800 gems - need 4,160 gems for all LW episodes) = $109.99
• Option 2: Buy Ultimate edition - $99.99 + 50 gold (4,000 gems + 160 gems from farming gold)
• Option 3: $49.99 + 1,220 gold (earned ingame)
• Option 4: Play another popular game - $109.99 - $54.99 = $55 ((Base game purchase of $54.99 or $59.99)enough leftover for 3 to 4 months play-time @ $41.97 for 3 months and $14.99/month)
• Option 5: Play other cheaper game - no clue on price structures.

Choose the best options.

Edited June 10, 2022 by Silent.6137

[Inculpatus cedo.9234]

1 hour ago, Tchuvan.4251 said:

Three expansions were $75, not $50, and no gems. With gems was $100.

$75 for Deluxe, I'm sorry to hear you chose that edition; it's not the best value-wise. 

[ShroomOneUp.6913]

15 hours ago, Inculpatus cedo.9234 said:

I seem to have missed the statement where ArenaNet  said they are 'ANNOUNCING THE RELEASE DATE ON NEAR BY DATE'.  Could you be so kind to post a link? 

how can you NOT know about the steam release?

[Inculpatus cedo.9234]

3 minutes ago, ShroomOneUp.6913 said:

how can you NOT know about the steam release?

Not what I asked.  Please provide the link to where ArenaNet is 'ANNOUNCING THE RELEASE DATE ON NEAR BY DATE'. 

[Lucy.3728]

On 6/7/2022 at 1:42 AM, Tchuvan.4251 said:

I'm talking about CORE STORYLINE content. 

Sadly.

 

I was a returning player, 2 years ago, and that policy ruined my fun in the story at the beginning. Everything was like patched together with obvious missing content to connect it. (I actually got a video shown that summarized the events of season 1 in like 1 minute and that wasn't much helpful - besides, I want to play and don't watch videos) And I felt that. I was confused about people and what they talked about. That built up to a disinterest in story and characters which lead to a bad gaming experience that I even quit playing the HoT story. and started PoF.

 

When the Everything GW2 for 75 bucks advertisement came, I also thought it includes the seasons (in German it even says, all of the living world) and was considering buying it for another account. But I luckily asked before and kitten it does. So I didn't buy.

 

BTW season 1 isn't over yet, the important story parts are yet to come. You can't continue yet 😅

 

Edited June 12, 2022 by Lucy.3728

[Inculpatus cedo.9234]

8 minutes ago, Lucy.3728 said:

Sadly.

 

I was a returning player, 2 years ago, and that policy ruined my fun in the story at the beginning. Everything was like patched together with obvious missing content to connect it. (I actually got a video shown that summarized the events of season 1 in like 1 minute and that wasn't much helpful - besides, I want to play and don't watch videos) And I felt that. I was confused about people and what they talked about. That built up to a disinterest in story and characters which lead to a bad gaming experience that I even quit playing the HoT story. and started PoF.

 

When the Everything GW2 for 75 bucks advertisement came, I also thought it includes the seasons (in German it even says, all of the living world) and was considering buying it for another account. But I luckily asked before and kitten it does. So I didn't buy.

 

BTW season 1 isn't over yet, the important story parts are yet to come. You can't continue yet 😅

 

Missing out on Living World Season One two years ago could not be avoided, as it was not available at that time.   If that dissuaded you from playing the game, it had nothing to do with Living World Seasons and their costs.   (Living World Season Two was available on the site's purchase page, back then as it is now.)

[Lucy.3728]

14 minutes ago, Inculpatus cedo.9234 said:

it had nothing to do with Living World Seasons and their costs

It had everything to do with s2

[Inculpatus cedo.9234]

Season One being unavailable had everything to do with Season Two having a cost in Gems?  I'm not sure I'm following the logic.  🤷‍♂️

[The Boz.2038]

On 6/10/2022 at 7:47 PM, Emerik.1647 said:

Thank god i saw this while browsing forum at work

Wont spent money and time on this game.

And i wondered why game isnt as popular as it should.

Its infested with F2P shop and hides inconvinient parts

 

I should not lurk forums to see where devs try to scam me.

They can do all they want with their game

Thing is if they treat this as some business school test on client abuse they shoudnt be suprised with backlash

After all its just "Business"

You read panic and doomsaying from people who have a bone to pick.

The gem shop allows for in-game-attained gold to be converted into gems. An episode is, like, maybe two hours of farming to unlock. A full season has a ~23% discount. 

We really are in "if the game offers anything else to buy ever other than the expansion, it is F2P shop with pay-to-win elements and thus the work of Satan". 

Seriously...