Owp nerfs details + core weapon updates.

[Gotejjeken.1267]

5 hours ago, Euthymias.7984 said:

Being good in some instances but average/not optimal in others is "artificially setting the bar" for something?

 

I just see it as part of that style of play's identity - how it delivers damage and all that being tied to short interval bursts that can supplement allies but with windows where the damage goes down between them (unless you play condi).

That is something unique to the way this version plays it. That is a reason to consider it for those fights where that sort of play shines. There is (again)a condi build and Untamed if you want more "persistent" DPS where there aren't those short windows, so why should power bursting be thrown out?

If they want Untamed to be good enough, all it has to do is bring a consistent amount of solid damage +  the utility of CC for the encounters or fights where that matters, or something that is also valuable to the party while dealing damage. That could have easily been its niche, but nerfing Soulbeast just because others can't compete for something its specifically good at (damage spikes) really just rubs me the wrong way

But hey, if you just want the spec to be green weaver that has to somehow consistently flank in instances to upkeep its damage, there's good news:
 

 

 

*sigh* Anet is going to look at this vid and be like 'welp that's it, balance done' or 'omg it has all boons too strong, nerf'.  

Missing the point it's a backward facing, stationary, standard golem.  

Actually...maybe that's how they internally test things, would explain a lot....

[Abyssisis.3971]

7 hours ago, Canidae Canis.2861 said:

Soulbeast set the bar too high is essentially what I'm getting at. Its ability to produce massive damage spikes in short windows is indeed fun and part of the identity - no argument there. But it just does it too well. You can't bring up the utility or core weapon skills of Ranger without inflating Soulbeast's burst damage even more. Any changes you would make to increase core damage is just multiplied by the Sic'em + OWP combo, resulting in Soulbeast still being on top. In short, they can't make the other Ranger specs more viable unless they bring down the unique abilities that allow Soulbeast burst. The burst combo will still exist, just tamped down a bit to allow better maintenance dps when not bursting.

So why can’t a soulbeast be on top? Or is that spot reserved to rotate through classes like guardians, nercos and engineers? 

[BumboJumbo.1308]

22 hours ago, BumboJumbo.1308 said:

Do you think that maybe - just maybe - that your suggestions don't work in practice? 

Anet has all the tools to put the theory into practice, but you don't.

Also, could it also be possible that your suggestions don't take into account pve and pvp at the same time in relation to theory to practice?

@anduriell.6280I'm guessing you have no response to this. 

Don't get me wrong you can do a rework that you think is good but at the end of the day you can't say that your rework/balance is the answer.

[Xaylin.1860]

On 7/1/2022 at 10:57 AM, The Boz.2038 said:

Stanceshare is a "unique buff" that must go, I'm afraid. If not, OWP and other stances will forever be constrained by the "potential" of five allies doing it, swinging the balance up wildly.

I think, while it is sad, this is a very important point. They're just like shared Signets on Guardian. The question is: What could LotP provide to support allies then?

I'm afraid Quickness is off the table since they just introduced Alacrity to core although it would have fit the middle trait row. However, what about Stability and/or Superspeed?

[Xaylin.1860]

[...]

Edited July 2, 2022 by Xaylin.1860
Double post.

[Xaylin.1860]

[...]

Edited July 2, 2022 by Xaylin.1860
Tripple post.

[Sirius.4510]

I have a feeling main hand axe will either get adjusted, or main hand sword/dagger will get further adjusted, because, well, axe is just a lot stronger than the other two now. Splitblade feels like a shotgun.

But, in the meantime, it's a viable pdps spec. I still think OWP is kind of unsatisfying in its current incarnation, and I would appreciate being able to take other elites for different (e.g. condi) builds, but Thursday's fixes were enough that I can still focus on Ranger if I want to.

(and... yeah I'm aware there exists a powerful Untamed build that uses Entangle for its elite, but I'm not sure if I can actually pull it off or whether it works outside the golem room)

[Ashen.2907]

On 7/1/2022 at 7:01 AM, Canidae Canis.2861 said:

Soulbeast set the bar too high is essentially what I'm getting at. Its ability to produce massive damage spikes in short windows is indeed fun and part of the identity - no argument there. But it just does it too well. You can't bring up the utility or core weapon skills of Ranger without inflating Soulbeast's burst damage even more. Any changes you would make to increase core damage is just multiplied by the Sic'em + OWP combo, resulting in Soulbeast still being on top. In short, they can't make the other Ranger specs more viable unless they bring down the unique abilities that allow Soulbeast burst. The burst combo will still exist, just tamped down a bit to allow better maintenance dps when not bursting.

Are the other Ranger specs designed or intended to compete for a pure dps spot though? Is lowering a pure DPS build's burst to allow a healer to compete with it for DPS a good thing?

Edited July 2, 2022 by Ashen.2907

[The Boz.2038]

6 hours ago, Xaylin.1860 said:

I think, while it is sad, this is a very important point. They're just like shared Signets on Guardian. The question is: What could LotP provide to support allies then?

I'm afraid Quickness is off the table since they just introduced Alacrity to core although it would have fit the middle trait row. However, what about Stability and/or Superspeed?

"Whenever you enter a stance, grant 4s quickness to yourself and allies around you" can work. Impossible to maintain alac and quick with that, the numbers don't add up; both boons consume utility slots like candy.

[Ashen.2907]

27 minutes ago, The Boz.2038 said:

"Whenever you enter a stance, grant 4s quickness to yourself and allies around you" can work. Impossible to maintain alac and quick with that, the numbers don't add up; both boons consume utility slots like candy.

My only issue with that sort of design is that it encourages spamming of skills that have situational utility effectively eliminating the use of that utility according to current fight circumstances. 

[Xaylin.1860]

16 hours ago, The Boz.2038 said:

"Whenever you enter a stance, grant 4s quickness to yourself and allies around you" can work. Impossible to maintain alac and quick with that, the numbers don't add up; both boons consume utility slots like candy.

Would have to do the math but probably true. Considering they have just removed Alacrity from Ventari, Quickness on Soulbeast might be more unlikely than things like Stab.

[ShakingMonkey.1743]

On 7/1/2022 at 4:01 PM, Canidae Canis.2861 said:

Soulbeast set the bar too high is essentially what I'm getting at. Its ability to produce massive damage spikes in short windows is indeed fun and part of the identity - no argument there. But it just does it too well. You can't bring up the utility or core weapon skills of Ranger without inflating Soulbeast's burst damage even more. Any changes you would make to increase core damage is just multiplied by the Sic'em + OWP combo, resulting in Soulbeast still being on top. In short, they can't make the other Ranger specs more viable unless they bring down the unique abilities that allow Soulbeast burst. The burst combo will still exist, just tamped down a bit to allow better maintenance dps when not bursting.

There are a lot of buff when you merge as soulbeast. Including a 15% damage buff iirc. Remove it, and you can buff core ranger by 15%, without touching soulbeast damage. And you still have a bunch of cool hidden buff here and there.

[Kodama.6453]

20 hours ago, The Boz.2038 said:

"Whenever you enter a stance, grant 4s quickness to yourself and allies around you" can work. Impossible to maintain alac and quick with that, the numbers don't add up; both boons consume utility slots like candy.

It wouldn't be 100% boon uptime, but very very close to it, so it might probably still get used as a boon distributor.
Assuming you have 100% boon duration, you could run this:

bear stance + moa stance + one wolf pack = (8/20)+(8/20)+(8/48) = 0,96666 = 97% quickness uptime

frost spirit + storm spirit = (8/16) + (8/16) = 1 = 100% alacrity uptime

4 hours ago, Xaylin.1860 said:

Would have to do the math but probably true. Considering they have just removed Alacrity from Ventari, Quickness on Soulbeast might be more unlikely than things like Stab.

Really fair point. They also tied quickness and alacrity for chronomancer to 2 different grandmaster traits, meaning that you have to chose one of the boons and the other is completely locked out for you to share.

It seems pretty obvious that they don't want classes to share both boons at all, not just unable to share them with 100% uptime.

[The Boz.2038]

8 hours ago, Kodama.6453 said:

bear stance + moa stance + one wolf pack = (8/20)+(8/20)+(8/48) = 0,96666 = 97% quickness uptime

Do not ignore the Moa Stance effect, tho.

[Kodama.6453]

8 hours ago, The Boz.2038 said:

Do not ignore the Moa Stance effect, tho.

Yeah, but it gives 66% boon duration which is still limited to 100%, even if you use moa stance.

And if you want to get the nearly 100% uptime of the boons, you will have to get 100% boon duration independant of it, since otherwise you will not reach the potential of the build. Moa stance is just taken there because of it's relatively short cooldown, not because of the boon duration effect.

And as mentioned, a build which can almost upkeep 100% of both quickness and alacrity won't happen. Anet doesn't want a class to have this.

[The Boz.2038]

9 minutes ago, Kodama.6453 said:

Yeah, but it gives 66% boon duration which is still limited to 100%, even if you use moa stance.

Oh, right. Thought it was a special modifier, but no.  

9 minutes ago, Kodama.6453 said:

And as mentioned, a build which can almost upkeep 100% of both quickness and alacrity won't happen. Anet doesn't want a class to have this.

Well, the goal is to *not* have this. I specifically went for stance activations so that you couldn't stack them with alacrity spirits. Numbers fine-tuning needed, sure.

[Canidae Canis.2861]

On 7/1/2022 at 5:13 PM, Abyssisis.3971 said:

So why can’t a soulbeast be on top? Or is that spot reserved to rotate through classes like guardians, nercos and engineers? 

Hi there - I'm only referring to competition amongst the ranger specs, not between all classes. I have no issue if Soulbeast ousts Guardian, Necro, or Engi as the top DPS for a while 🙂 

The problem Anet is trying to fix is that Soulbeast by far out-damages all other ranger specs. Of course it should be our best DPS spec, but in terms of contributing DPS the other three specs are buried 6 feet under (Untamed might fare better now with the weapon bonuses). Damage on core Ranger and Druid is just laughably bad. Raising base weapon damage is just one way they can help alleviate that situation.

On 7/2/2022 at 12:29 PM, Ashen.2907 said:

Are the other Ranger specs designed or intended to compete for a pure dps spot though? Is lowering a pure DPS build's burst to allow a healer to compete with it for DPS a good thing?

Answer to the first question: it's more complicated than that, but yes. Unless you are going full-blown heal/support, you should be able to dish out moderate to high dps. What is core Ranger's purpose? We can argue now with Spirit alacrity that Core ranger has a support role, but it's already wretched damage would be made worse by taking Nature Magic for Spirits. Soulbeast can do that, and do it better. Druid is literally only useful for heal/support, there isn't really a viable support/dps build there akin to Quickbrand, Alacrigade, etc. Same deal for Untamed. That's the gap we need to fill in our other ranger specs - the support/dps - but we need more base damage to accomplish that.

Yes it will take away from our small burst window, but I think in the long run it can work out better for all of our specs. We'll just have to see.

[Abyssisis.3971]

22 hours ago, Canidae Canis.2861 said:

Hi there - I'm only referring to competition amongst the ranger specs, not between all classes. I have no issue if Soulbeast ousts Guardian, Necro, or Engi as the top DPS for a while 🙂 

The problem Anet is trying to fix is that Soulbeast by far out-damages all other ranger specs. Of course it should be our best DPS spec, but in terms of contributing DPS the other three specs are buried 6 feet under (Untamed might fare better now with the weapon bonuses). Damage on core Ranger and Druid is just laughably bad. Raising base weapon damage is just one way they can help alleviate that situation.

Soulbeast is the DPS option so it should be on top regardless.

Soulbeast outdamaging other ranger specs all comes down to bad balancing by anets when they continually double nerfed rangers, by nerfing ranger coefficients and then pet coefficients. Soulbeast makes up for it by permanently merging for the bonus stats. If anet wants to make other ranger specs deal more damage, they should be looking at how much they nerfed rangers and pets as a result of the big balance patch of nerfs and undo some of them.

 

[Teratus.2859]

If there's one weapon skill i've always hated on Ranger it's Axe 2, Splitblade.

I have to admit that since the patch i've really been enjoying using Splitblade, it actually feels like it does damage now, and a decent amount of it for a 6 second CD skill.

Hopefully this won't be nerfed in future, this skill was seriously in need of a powerboost for a very long time.

[Dadnir.5038]

11 minutes ago, Teratus.2859 said:

If there's one weapon skill i've always hated on Ranger it's Axe 2, Splitblade.

I have to admit that since the patch i've really been enjoying using Splitblade, it actually feels like it does damage now, and a decent amount of it for a 6 second CD skill.

Hopefully this won't be nerfed in future, this skill was seriously in need of a powerboost for a very long time.

Right now, in PvE, it seem that:

- Druid isn't quite in the right place

- Soulbeast seem just in the right place (It's almost perfect, not to strong nor to weak)

- Untamed is a on trick pony (Ah... If fervent force was on a minor trait slot, it would be perfect!).