Completely impartial and unbiased design of professions is a job requirement, full stop, no excuses.

[Einsof.1457]

I can't get over the discord leaks. The only thing I can think of that will maybe help me move on (and quite a few other players that I know) is if Karl McLain came out and took responsibility, assured the community that going forward they will not allow bias to get in the way and lay out a path moving forward. It's completely unacceptable for devs design priority to be based on their own personal preferences, rather than what is best for the game and the players. That's gross incompetence. 

Edited July 3, 2022 by Einsof.1457

[Puck.3697]

I get what you mean. But sadly every nmorpg is guilty of this. 

This is why back in the old days. You had class devs. Was because this exists. The devs are human and will be human. 

It happens in every mmorpg. 

You cannot both play a mmorpg. And balance that same mmorpg without some level of bias. 

It's just company's now no longer structure the teams to deal with human emotion and leave 2 people to balance 9 proffessions while they will naturally have a main and obviously are more aware and experienced at dealing with the proffession their spending all their time on. 

Just sadly.. this one managed to get himself caught out by admitting to thar bias. But has always existed. Maybe not for the same proffessions from the start as devs change. But it's always existed. 

Saying anything right now would be considered damage control and wouldn't be believed sadly. So it wouldn't really fix anything. The only thing that could rectify the situation is the actions they make following this. 

Basically when we get to preview rhe August changes they need to be on point. The community from every proffession will need to feel listened to when they give us the opportunity to provide feedback to those notes. And the finished product will need to reflect that. 

If it doesn't nothing they say between now and then will fix the damage those leaks caused. 

Edited July 3, 2022 by Daddy.8125

[Dadnir.5038]

5 hours ago, Daddy.8125 said:

You cannot both play a mmorpg. And balance that same mmorpg without some level of bias.

So, basically, after years of calling out the devs asking if they play their game, we now ask them to stop playing it? 🤪

[Labjax.2465]

5 hours ago, Daddy.8125 said:

I get what you mean. But sadly every nmorpg is guilty of this. 

This is why back in the old days. You had class devs. Was because this exists. The devs are human and will be human. 

It happens in every mmorpg. 

You cannot both play a mmorpg. And balance that same mmorpg without some level of bias. 

It's just company's now no longer structure the teams to deal with human emotion and leave 2 people to balance 9 proffessions while they will naturally have a main and obviously are more aware and experienced at dealing with the proffession their spending all their time on. 

Just sadly.. this one managed to get himself caught out by admitting to thar bias. But has always existed. Maybe not for the same proffessions from the start as devs change. But it's always existed. 

Saying anything right now would be considered damage control and wouldn't be believed sadly. So it wouldn't really fix anything. The only thing that could rectify the situation is the actions they make following this. 

Basically when we get to preview rhe August changes they need to be on point. The community from every proffession will need to feel listened to when they give us the opportunity to provide feedback to those notes. And the finished product will need to reflect that. 

If it doesn't nothing they say between now and then will fix the damage those leaks caused. 

I mean, you're right in a way. You can't eliminate bias from the role. But you can't really do that with any role in life for that matter. That's why accountability and shared power is important. Putting too much in the hands of one person is pretty much always going to result in more bias than otherwise. It seems evident they have too few people making too many decisions about classes with too little knowledge about them to top it off. I have no idea what their resources look like, but I'd say ideally there should be at least one dev dedicated to each class. The impression I got from the leaks is they have like two main people, like you said, to balance the classes, which is just ridiculous.

[Puck.3697]

4 hours ago, Dadnir.5038 said:

So, basically, after years of calling out the devs asking if they play their game, we now ask them to stop playing it? 🤪

No. The demand would be to have more devs... bias can only exist when you have one person balancing several proffessions. 

You have to remember budget v what they want to get done. 

There will be so many dev hours, and so many things not worked on or cut from a patch, this is why things like 300 sec CDs get set further and further back effectively. 

Because they can't just endlessly work. They are set a amount of hours they're allowed to budget into the upcoming changes. 

[Dadnir.5038]

9 minutes ago, Daddy.8125 said:

No. The demand would be to have more devs... bias can only exist when you have one person balancing several proffessions. 

You have to remember budget v what they want to get done. 

There will be so many dev hours, and so many things not worked on or cut from a patch, this is why things like 300 sec CDs get set further and further back effectively. 

Because they can't just endlessly work. They are set a amount of hours they're allowed to budget into the upcoming changes. 

Personally I do not agree that there is a need for 1 person per profession for balance. A single person is more likely to have a good grasp of everything than 9 persons. 9 persons working on their own things won't likely lead to an uniform balance as many things are often lost through communication between 2+ persons.

While your argument of "bias" is right, I can only oppose it with the argument of "ethic". Someone with a proper work ethic should be able to stay clear of bias.

 

 

[draxynnic.3719]

10 minutes ago, Dadnir.5038 said:

Personally I do not agree that there is a need for 1 person per profession for balance. A single person is more likely to have a good grasp of everything than 9 persons. 9 persons working on their own things won't likely lead to an uniform balance as many things are often lost through communication between 2+ persons.

While your argument of "bias" is right, I can only oppose it with the argument of "ethic". Someone with a proper work ethic should be able to stay clear of bias.

 

 

Problem is, expecting one person to have a full understanding of all nine professions is a bit much, which is one of the other things revealed in the leak.

There needs to be an advocate for every profession in the decision-making process. That doesn't necessarily need to be a separate advocate for every profession, but every profession needs to have a voice on the table who understands and plays that profession in the mode in question. 

You can then have one or two people who focus on the "big picture", but they really need to have someone who can tell them "this proposed change won't work because XYZ" long before they hit the public. Too many of the 28Jun22 patch changes had problems that could be recognised with a basic understanding of how the profession works and a bit of napkin maths, and yet they slipped through anyway. Whether that's bias or ignorance, it demonstrates the need for suitable advocates.

[Kozumi.5816]

15 hours ago, Einsof.1457 said:

I can't get over the discord leaks. The only thing I can think of that will maybe help me move on (and quite a few other players that I know) is if Karl McLain came out and took responsibility, assured the community that going forward they will not allow bias to get in the way and lay out a path moving forward. It's completely unacceptable for devs design priority to be based on their own personal preferences, rather than what is best for the game and the players. That's gross incompetence. 

This is what happens when you hire young college grads that you can pay cheap.

[Killthehealersffs.8940]

15 hours ago, Einsof.1457 said:

I can't get over the discord leaks. The only thing I can think of that will maybe help me move on (and quite a few other players that I know) is if Karl McLain came out and took responsibility, assured the community that going forward they will not allow bias to get in the way and lay out a path moving forward. It's completely unacceptable for devs design priority to be based on their own personal preferences, rather than what is best for the game and the players. That's gross incompetence. 

Well also , he should say that going forward they will have a Counsil from PvP +WvWers.

So no more balance around dps-logs

 

Edited July 3, 2022 by Killthehealersffs.8940

[Saharo.5381]

10 hours ago, Killthehealersffs.8940 said:

Well also , he should say that going forward they will have a Counsil from PvP +WvWers.

There were already PvPers participating in that discord.

[Killthehealersffs.8940]

9 hours ago, Saharo Gravewind.5120 said:

There were already PvPers participating in that discord.

Do you know who are they? Because we didn't see amny things aimed at PvP's areas (stealth).

(atleast we backstab each other (players), and try to gain the favor of the devs . And not the opposite xaxaxaxaxax)

Edited July 4, 2022 by Killthehealersffs.8940

[Linnael.1069]

Completely agree. The efforts to silence the leaks were appalling. 

[Xenesis.6389]

23 hours ago, Killthehealersffs.8940 said:

Well also , he should say that going forward they will have a Counsil from PvP +WvWers.

So no more balance around dps-logs

Council from wvw, lmao, that would end up being guild leaders of zerg guilds and balancing around boon spam, which they already do.

[Gajex.2386]

Talking about [REDACTED]? In this [REDACTED]?!

So sad to hear you got [REDACTED] for [REDACTED] by [REDACTED].

[Killthehealersffs.8940]

1 hour ago, Xenesis.6389 said:

Council from wvw, lmao, that would end up being guild leaders of zerg guilds and balancing around boon spam, which they already do.

ell it will be an improvement over ,"my Power character does 32k , while all the other conditions are doing 38k"

Edited July 4, 2022 by Killthehealersffs.8940

[Obtena.7952]

No ethics govern game development. Do not assume there is a requirement here because it would make you feel better.

You see the game how you think it should be, not how it is.

Edited July 4, 2022 by Obtena.7952

[Xenesis.6389]

28 minutes ago, Killthehealersffs.8940 said:

ell it will be an improvement over ,"my Power character does 35k , while all the other conditions are doing 41k"

The same conditions those wvw zergs can completely ignore so don't give two bits about? I couldn't give a care about dps numbers in wvw, because it's all movement combat, not npc lord fights.

Balancing by devs should be fine as long as they keep their personal bias out of it. They should be looking at all classes equally and not shoving everything onto a couple classes they like. The last expansion shows once again the major bais they have to guard necro engineer class.

Edited July 4, 2022 by Xenesis.6389

[Killthehealersffs.8940]

5 minutes ago, Xenesis.6389 said:

The same conditions those wvw zergs can completely ignore so don't give two bits about?

At least , in WvW when something is busted they should nerf it .

While if they nerf themin PvE, people will say they wont be competitive and they wont get invited in CMS , by their fellow raiders

Edited July 4, 2022 by Killthehealersffs.8940

[Xenesis.6389]

Just now, Killthehealersffs.8940 said:

At least , in WvW when something is busted they should nerf it .

Yes they should, but wvw is their last priority.

[Killthehealersffs.8940]

5 minutes ago, Xenesis.6389 said:

Yes they should, but wvw is their last priority.

They should be , from now on .

PvE side  ,with Story/Strikes >Open world>Fractal  schedule circle , is a valid tactic (or do we want to go in an other new interations?)

Edited July 4, 2022 by Killthehealersffs.8940

[Mesket.5728]

On 7/2/2022 at 10:46 PM, Daddy.8125 said:

You cannot both play a mmorpg. And balance that same mmorpg without some level of bias. 

You can and you should. Its called being a professional

Edited July 4, 2022 by Mesket.5728

[Puck.3697]

2 hours ago, Mesket.5728 said:

You can and you should. Its called being a professional

No it's not. It's being inhuman. 

Players demand it. There's a very large difference. 

You cannot tell a man to play a game. Have a main dedicate hours and hours to thr game to experience all game modes and more. Then leave the same man to balance 8 other proffessions. 

Name a game which has done this correctly please..  

And we shall see if the games you bring up has class devs or not. Which anet does not. 

Dev bias has existed in every mmorpg. Its why most of them now have moved to class devs. 

No one can main 9 proffessions. Few can play 9 proffessions to a level to understand balancing them. It is human nature to be bias. 

If someone can play a game actively with 0 bias. They aren't passionate about the game I'm afraid. 

There's a reason why you don't see guards and necros mains fighting anet on the current state of warriors. There's a reason casual players attack any changes they feel are pro elitists and there's a reason people defend and attack games. 

It's all down to a biased opinion. These devs are handed 9 proffessions between like 2 people... given a order and left to freehand prioritise changes based on a budget. 

Anet need class devs. They need a player who mains each proffession has representation of those proffessons. Like litterally every other successful mmorpg runs. 

Every dev is biased. I've given multiple examples of obvious bias in the past concerning several mmorpgs. 

The difference is this one got leaked. That's the only difference. 

Edited July 4, 2022 by Daddy.8125

[standardFoe.2983]

@Daddy.8125 Wow you use a lot of words to say 'everyone will suffer and be okay with it'. Just because you think everything is biased doesn't mean it is or has to be.

 

GW2 is a product and a service and it's more than acceptable for customers to demand standards be upheld.

 

Do I expect the powers that be to actually change anything? No, of course not but that doesn't invalidate the criticism.

[Puck.3697]

48 minutes ago, standardFoe.2983 said:

@Daddy.8125 Wow you use a lot of words to say 'everyone will suffer and be okay with it'. Just because you think everything is biased doesn't mean it is or has to be.

 

GW2 is a product and a service and it's more than acceptable for customers to demand standards be upheld.

 

Do I expect the powers that be to actually change anything? No, of course not but that doesn't invalidate the criticism.

Actually if you read what I write that isn't what I said at all. 

My statement was:

This is mostly the companies fault. For not creating a design team which enough influences from all proffessions, but to leave 2 people in charge of 9 proffessions and expect it to be done to a high standard. 

I hold the company who put the team together responsible. Not a singular dev who is guilty of a human trait.

What I'm stating is. The position is impossible. That doesn't invalidate critism. That doesn't say "everything's okay" either. It states the opposite. 

It has been again. Proven time and time again. Handing multitudes of classes / proffessions to a singular person has never boded well. 

And also to stack. 

Everything is bias. Ofcourse it is lol. A opinion is bias in itself. Because ur expressing how u specifically feel lol. 

The reason dev teams in most companies work. Is because yoy don't have 2 people running 9 proffessions not even blizzard after all its cuts. Had this sorta spread.  

Edited July 4, 2022 by Daddy.8125

[ChronoPinoyX.7923]

1 hour ago, Daddy.8125 said:

No it's not. It's being inhuman. 

Players demand it. There's a very large difference. 

You cannot tell a man to play a game. Have a main dedicate hours and hours to thr game to experience all game modes and more. Then leave the same man to balance 8 other proffessions. 

Name a game which has done this correctly please..  

And we shall see if the games you bring up has class devs or not. Which anet does not. 

Dev bias has existed in every mmorpg. Its why most of them now have moved to class devs. 

No one can main 9 proffessions. Few can play 9 proffessions to a level to understand balancing them. It is human nature to be bias. 

If someone can play a game actively with 0 bias. They aren't passionate about the game I'm afraid. 

There's a reason why you don't see guards and necros mains fighting anet on the current state of warriors. There's a reason casual players attack any changes they feel are pro elitists and there's a reason people defend and attack games. 

It's all down to a biased opinion. These devs are handed 9 proffessions between like 2 people... given a order and left to freehand prioritise changes based on a budget. 

Anet need class devs. They need a player who mains each proffession has representation of those proffessons. Like litterally every other successful mmorpg runs. 

Every dev is biased. I've given multiple examples of obvious bias in the past concerning several mmorpgs. 

The difference is this one got leaked. That's the only difference. 

Meanwhile, I'm just here thinking this is a whole load of nonsense, and I had to QA test balancing for the better part of my 3 Years for different characters in an MMORPG

If a dev has massive bias towards any professions during balancing, then whoever is balancing things needs to get fired ASAP. And I'm saying that in a professional capacity. In all the games I've played (and tested) we don't take our own personal biases into consideration, we take player feedback as much as possible to better understand the state in which the game is at when it comes to balancing. And from there we work out what is good solutions, bad solutions, things we can adjust without changing major elements of the profession and elements which could be buff or nerfed relative to what's been shown by majority of the feedback we get.

Anyone who has dev bias when it comes to balancing obviously has no idea what they're actually doing at that point because they've got absolutely no idea on the state of the game, especially for an MMORPG, because at that point, they're blind to the other professions and how they've been balanced. If they stuck to just balancing one profession, what will simply happen is they'll end up with literally just a soup of nonsensical balancing because all they'll be thinking is "Oh we can do this, oh we can do that for this one specific profession"

The solution isn't a dev per profession, you can easily have 3 devs cover 9 professions including all E-Specs. What they need is to diversify their team into having 3 core balancing teams: PvE, PvP and WvW, with each core group consisting of at least 3 Dev members, which can then equate to 9 devs total covering 3 professions each for a specific game mode. They can then compare and contrast notes on how each profession would interact both towards each other in Co-Op modes and against each other in PvP modes.