Please anet dont forget vindicator exists

[Obtena.7952]

20 minutes ago, Aeolus.3615 said:

That would happen in Gw1 quite alot...  extremelly rarelly in gw2, its like aunicorn moment, cause that's not how the game is ment to be played or to be correct mostly how players have decided not how to play the game due how easy is to group overperform with certain builds(it's a game to be carried in 1st place with alot of outliers builds far underperforming as cannon fodder), on gw1 even with the suposed meta group the group could fail any time, here doesnt, meta builds are carying way to much compared with non meta builds, that m8 be the issue.

Maybe. I'm not here to speculate why GW2 has this extreme meta community or why average players allow themselves to be bullied by it, resulting in them asking for ridiculous class changes they will never get. 

The important thing here is that not being meta isn't a reason to buff something, especially if the buff won't make it meta. It's a farce and it exacerbates a problem that exists in this game. 

If people want Vindicator to be more team desirable, DPS isn't the solution, just like that wasn't the solution for so many other specs in the past either. 

Edited July 21, 2022 by Obtena.7952

[Jees.5478]

I want a damage buff for vindicator so I can play him in raids. Arenanet sayed they want to make it possible that you can play any class as any role. Right now that is not possible for revenant. The closes spec of rev for pdps is vindicator and he is the desired pdps for Arenanet. Before the 28.06.2022 i was happy with him. I made 38k on the golem and 36k in raids. It was perfect. If ppl think his dps is ok then nice for you. I only care for myself and his dps is now to low for me. No, even to low for player who do not play raids. So buff it like you did with soulbeast Arenanet. I want to play him as pdps in any content because hes fun to play. I dont even care that his greatsword 3 has the wrong distance of 300 (in the skilltext it says 900). I like the dodge even if you still can get cced in the air.

 

So do not forget about Vindicator Arenanet! Don't forget the dps revenent, because he doesn't have a dps spec right now. Like the last years. Didn't you guys made the Vindicator to close that gab? Yes u did and killed him now again.

[Aeolus.3615]

2 hours ago, Obtena.7952 said:

(snip)

If people want Vindicator to be more team desirable, DPS isn't the solution, just like that wasn't the solution for so many other specs in the past either. 

TDLR, perma quickness and alacrity would "fix" it, but would be idiotic reason i am in favour of taking something from the predominant prededators, if Anet wants to give more boons to all they have to spread and reduce overall duration to avoid 1 class dominating the entire boon duration, at least in the most strong boons like quickness.

[Aeolus.3615]

2 hours ago, Obtena.7952 said:

The important thing here is that not being meta isn't a reason to buff something, especially if the buff won't make it meta. It's a farce and it exacerbates a problem that exists in this game. 

It might even mislead Anet to do the wrong patches into a class, what i ment is that vindicator m8 be fine players are just used way to much to very big overperforming builds  wich is shafting other specs and builds that should be the normal gameplay of the game, that's what happens when theres a game based on boon spam to make some diference in the copium pasta mechanics some will be broken more than others.

 

 

Edited July 21, 2022 by Aeolus.3615

[ScottBroChill.3254]

4 hours ago, Obtena.7952 said:

Maybe. I'm not here to speculate why GW2 has this extreme meta community or why average players allow themselves to be bullied by it, resulting in them asking for ridiculous class changes they will never get. 

The important thing here is that not being meta isn't a reason to buff something, especially if the buff won't make it meta. It's a farce and it exacerbates a problem that exists in this game. 

If people want Vindicator to be more team desirable, DPS isn't the solution, just like that wasn't the solution for so many other specs in the past either. 

Can you explain to us what YOUR  solution is then? 

[ScottBroChill.3254]

Just now, Obtena.7952 said:

I already told you (in other threads as well IIRC) ... play with teams that don't care about optimal comps. The same as it's been for non-meta specs and builds since the beginning. 

That is the worst solution anyone has ever come up with, and dude no one is going to comb through your post history to find your one idea, you have to present your argument if you're going to debate. But your "solution" isn't even a solution. It's admitting the spec is trash and to just accept it instead of trying to figure out a real solution. It's the equivalent of 300second cooldown traits. I guess there's no point in even having balance changes because every class is where it needs to be. Thank you, enlightened one. 

[Obtena.7952]

2 minutes ago, ScottBroChill.3254 said:

That is the worst solution anyone has ever come up with

Actually the worst solutions are the ones that aren't implementable ... like making whatever builds people want to play all meta. It's just a fantasy. It can't happen. Yet here we are ... "buff me so I compete". 

Edited July 21, 2022 by Obtena.7952

[ScottBroChill.3254]

Just now, Obtena.7952 said:

Actually the worst solutions are the ones that aren't implementable ... like making whatever builds people want to play all meta. 

Rev has no Powerdps spec. We only have condi, alac, support, now quickness with herald. Vindi is all power damage. It needs to cover a role that isn't already covered by the other specs. It doesn't need to be top meta, it just needs to be competitive enough that people don't view it as a burden on the team. It should be a viable pdps option for revenant, but currently its not worth playing and no one likes playing with a handicap.

Every class that is underperforming should be looked at for buffs. It doesn't need to be number 1, nor number 2, heck, not even number 3. But it shouldn't be so far behind while providing barely any utility that there is no reason to bring it along outside of roleplaying purposes. I think its important to constantly try to move the gap in performance closer and closer so certain specs arent totally outclassed by others.

Same goes for overperforming specs. Your argument basically validates the current balance of Mech overpowering every other class and that that's ok because you can still form a group that is much much weaker so long as you find people that like to waste time. 

You can definitely implement a dps buff, what in the world are you talking about. It's literally number tweaks which is the easiest change imaginable. I mean, outside your suggestion of having no balance which I guess is the easiest of them all. 

[Obtena.7952]

17 minutes ago, ScottBroChill.3254 said:

Rev has no Powerdps spec.

Of course it does ... it's just not meta. The problem isn't that Anet can't implement a DPS buff; of course they can. No one is arguing they can't do that.

The problem this thread is talking about is getting a team as a Vindicator. OP has concluded that requires Vindicator to be competitive DPS. There are SEVERAL problems with solution, including the fact that it exacerbates the very problem the OP is talking about. The astounding to me that people don't see this contradiction that they complain about not being competitive ... but demand buffs because of it to push someone else out of competition. It's a very bad bit of critical thinking going on with people that think this way. 

Edited July 21, 2022 by Obtena.7952

[ScottBroChill.3254]

15 minutes ago, Obtena.7952 said:

Of course it does ... it's just not meta. The problem isn't that Anet can't implement a DPS buff; of course they can. No one is arguing they can't do that.

The problem this thread is talking about is getting a team as a Vindicator. OP has concluded that requires Vindicator to be competitive DPS. There are SEVERAL problems with solution, including the fact that it exacerbates the very problem the OP is talking about. The astounding to me that people don't see this contradiction that they complain about not being competitive ... but demand buffs because of it to push someone else out of competition. It's a very bad bit of critical thinking going on with people that think this way. 

The problem is you are mixing up meta with competitive. Meta is the top choice, competitive just makes it an option. People don't feel like vindicator is a real option in organized play and I think that is a testament that means vindicator isn't doing what it's setting out to do. If the role isn't power dps, than it is failing at excelling at something else since we can't even figure out what that is.

OP is clearly talking about making it competitive. How does buffing it into a competitive range exacerbate the issue of it not being competitive? that's a contradiction. 

[Obtena.7952]

5 minutes ago, ScottBroChill.3254 said:

The problem is you are mixing up meta with competitive.

Except they aren't different ... because 'competitive' DPS doesn't solve the problem of people getting teams with their specs. If you want to join a team with a DPS spec, you have to be meta(in the case of optimal teams) or your problem is already solved by joining a team that doesn't care what you play. 

Again, look at the original post. 

We already were struggling with vindicators damage before the big balance patch dropped and  right now its not even close to what other top pdps specs can do

As yourself why the OP wants to compete with other top pDPS specs ... 

Edited July 21, 2022 by Obtena.7952

[Buran.3796]

   At the moment, despite the meta isn't entirely finished since some some top PvE builds are still testing (others just leaved/stopped playing the game), there's not a single Revenant build which is meta at hard instanced PvE (fractals, raids, strikes).

   Support (heal), quickness or alacrity Revenant builds aren't meta, since there's other specs which perform better at those roles while having better damage, better utility tools (shared aegis, team stability, teleports, boon rips, reflects...), easier gameplay or a mix of some of those factors.

   Since at the support role Rev will be marginalized (if the content is hard won't be picked in the place of a class which performs better or does similar with less effort), the alternative role is doing well at dps. Vindi is comically bad at this: low dps with inherent sustain problems due the way in which maximizes its pity strike damage, and no condi builds because this was supposed to be a power build (because Renegade & Herald used to be strong at condition damage before the EoD nerfs).

   So at PvE Vindi is only meta at roleplaying; a t-shirt memeing "I known that the voices aren't real, but man they come up with some great ideas!" would fit wonderfully our tripolar heroes.

[LucianTheAngelic.7054]

4 hours ago, ScottBroChill.3254 said:

The problem is you are mixing up meta with competitive. Meta is the top choice, competitive just makes it an option. People don't feel like vindicator is a real option in organized play and I think that is a testament that means vindicator isn't doing what it's setting out to do. If the role isn't power dps, than it is failing at excelling at something else since we can't even figure out what that is.

OP is clearly talking about making it competitive. How does buffing it into a competitive range exacerbate the issue of it not being competitive? that's a contradiction. 

I think we should just start advocating for actual meta DPS with the spec since the user you’re responding to is going to straw man “competitive” to mean “meta” regardless. Might as well get something better out of it in the long run than just the very reasonable and level-headed “competitive dps” suggestions most of us have been floating around forever lmao 

 

+1 Vindicator next full meta pDPS, buffs please 

Edited July 21, 2022 by LucianTheAngelic.7054

[Obtena.7952]

23 minutes ago, LucianTheAngelic.7054 said:

I think we should just start advocating for actual meta DPS with the spec since the user you’re responding to is going to straw man “competitive” to mean “meta” regardless. Might as well get something better out of it in the long run than just the very reasonable and level-headed “competitive dps” suggestions most of us have been floating around forever lmao 

 

+1 Vindicator next full meta pDPS, buffs please 

There is no strawman here. It's actually the OP who is the one equating competitive DPS with meta here when he says he wants to compete in PVE with top pDPS classes. Obviously he means for teams which obviously means he's talking about meta ... because you don't compete if you aren't meta level in a DPS role. 

I mean, if the OP wants to talk about competing with other classes for spots in a team, DPS on Vindicator is probably the worst way for Revenant to do that. If anything, it's more likely Vindicator plays a support role with better results in a team. 

These appeals to competing against top pDPS classes are not relevant for justifying DPS increases if the  increase wouldn't make the spec compete with those top pDPS classes in a team. The reasoning here is flawed. 

Edited July 22, 2022 by Obtena.7952

[LucianTheAngelic.7054]

36 minutes ago, Obtena.7952 said:

There is no strawman here. It's actually the OP who is the one equating competitive DPS with meta here when he says he wants to compete in PVE with top pDPS classes. Obviously he means for teams which obviously means he's talking about meta ... because you don't compete if you aren't meta level in a DPS role. 

I mean, if the OP wants to talk about competing with other classes for spots in a team, DPS on Vindicator is probably the worst way for Revenant to do that. If anything, it's more likely Vindicator plays a support role with better results in a team. 

These appeals to competing against top pDPS classes are not relevant for justifying DPS increases if the  increase wouldn't make the spec compete with those top pDPS classes in a team. The reasoning here is flawed. 

No, it's fine. I'm okay with playing with your strawman here because you still don't understand what "competitive" means by those here who use it.

I am openly advocating for Vindicator to be pDPS #1 now

Edited July 22, 2022 by LucianTheAngelic.7054

[Obtena.7952]

The issue was pretty simple according to the OP. There isn't any misunderstanding here. It's just a disagreement that Vindicator needs to be competitive DPS when it doesn't for the reasons provided throughout the thread. I mean, there just isn't an argument to give Vindicator competitive DPS just because other specs have top pDPS. It's a non-starter. 

If Vindicator needs more DPS, it's not because other specs do more DPS than it does. That's probably the worst reason to buff anything, especially if you care about any sense of balance in the game whatsoever. 

Edited July 22, 2022 by Obtena.7952

[Angesombre.4630]

Revenant has been so nerfed in the last few years, vindicator has already paid the price maybe in some modes especially with healing it may be powerful but it lacks DPS and buffs to give to others, compared to renegade which gives more thanks to the traits. Ventari was nerfed on alac while guard provided quickness by default.

I think that Vindicator should give quickness to Herald who doesn't need it even if he should get an increase of DPS in PvE and more defensive buffs according to me after I already talked about that in another post and that's not the point.
If you compare vindicator with harbinger, engineer or guard for example. The 2 give quickness more easily and can share it by having a good dps.
There is a way to play with the traits to do things well without distorting the system, even if the Mario mode does not amuse me much. For the traits I already talked about it in another post about the problems at this level.

For those who played the first beta of the vindicator it was made like the herald with a skill reversal and was just modified with either red or blue and now is different from the initial version. At the same time with the mod dev without CD it is much easier.

The skill 2 of the GS, the visual effect is too confusing and should just do the carry, 3 bugs since the first beta, and 5 already nerfed with RNG and variable damage. while we know that a class is overperforming at the moment and still nothing for that if.

There are other specializations that should be reviewed as well, as a reminder in GW1 had a lot more skills while in GW2 they do not manage to balance.

I'm not going to list all the random nerfs that revenant has had in the last 3 years, it would be nice if the developers could find out what they are doing and what they have done. Since then it has become less and less appealing to me even though I loved it when it first came out with Hots.

So in the end vindi can heal well but gives almost no buffs to others, no good DPS, with no good CC skill, or control, nor combo skill. Problem that I discovered in WvW with the vindicator when you are in the air in a staircase you have the same problem as with the razzia you are strongly slowed down. So still a lot of problems with the pseudo dodge that is broken when you take a skill that blocks like the guard wall with the stick. Specialization to be reworked.

Edited July 22, 2022 by Angesombre.4630

[LucianTheAngelic.7054]

Easy buffs to make Vindicator (and power rev) more appealing, all changes PVE ONLY:

Vindicator:

1) increase damage on Spear of Archemorus significantly due to single target, non piercing nature and long CD, slightly increase damage on Nomad's Advance and Scavenger Burst

2) increase GS damage on GS2/3 to make sure S/S doesn't overshadow it after buffs (below). Make GS2 match the animation distance or fix animation. Adjust tooltip or fix bug for GS3 distance

3) increase Forerunner of Death buff from 15s to 18s to make it easier to maintain the damage buff without an external source of vigor or wasting energy/time on Energy Meld

4) increase the build's vigor uptime slightly to make it easier to maintain Forerunner of Death buff without external source of vigor; an additional 1s on Spirit Boon and 1s on Song of Arboreum

5) Change Reaver's Rage Daze from 1.5s to 3s

6) increase Selfish Spirit damage slightly so the build is less punished for using its channeled heal

Core Rev buffs:

1) Decrease Jade Winds energy cost from 50 to 25 or 30

2) increase sword/sword damage across the board, especially on 2/4/5

Should be easy to boost the efficiency of the spec with these numerical changes. Increased vigor = slightly more defense and longer buff uptime and makes the rotation less punishing overall. Increased access slightly to CC as well, one of its major issues.

Edited July 22, 2022 by LucianTheAngelic.7054

[Angesombre.4630]

Personal opinion, but I think these traits should be changed:
"Amnesty of Shing Jea" I find it relatively accessory and it is used only for the alliance
"Redemptor's Sermon" sorry if people use it but I find it too long and very relatively useful.
"Balance in Discord" is a fixed trait that should be incorporated directly into the skill and useful only for the alliance so relatively too.
"Reaver's Curse" can be useful on groups at a certain level but completely useless on a single target.
"Angsiyan's Trust" I don't even know if people use it

So 2 stamina reload skills that are very relative so I think changing them would be good, and 2 other skills that are only used for the alliance. If we compare with renegade the skill can be used with everything except 2 one which is for bow and the other one for legend but which has a defensive use.

We could have on certain trait an increase of the buffs for the blue part for example and for the red for example to have the choice of a sharing of the buffs side red of the alliance. This could have given quickness directly to the vindicator.

[soul.9651]

1 hour ago, LucianTheAngelic.7054 said:

Easy buffs to make Vindicator (and power rev) more appealing, all changes PVE ONLY:

Vindicator:

1) increase damage on Spear of Archemorus significantly due to single target, non piercing nature and long CD, slightly increase damage on Nomad's Advance and Scavenger Burst

2) increase GS damage on GS2/3 to make sure S/S doesn't overshadow it after buffs (below). Make GS2 match the animation distance or fix animation. Adjust tooltip or fix bug for GS3 distance

3) increase Forerunner of Death buff from 15s to 18s to make it easier to maintain the damage buff without an external source of vigor or wasting energy/time on Energy Meld

4) increase the build's vigor uptime slightly to make it easier to maintain Forerunner of Death buff without external source of vigor; an additional 1s on Spirit Boon and 1s on Song of Arboreum

5) Change Reaver's Rage Daze from 1.5s to 3s

6) increase Selfish Spirit damage slightly so the build is less punished for using its channeled heal

Core Rev buffs:

1) Decrease Jade Winds energy cost from 50 to 25 or 30

2) increase sword/sword damage across the board, especially on 2/4/5

Should be easy to boost the efficiency of the spec with these numerical changes. Increased vigor = slightly more defense and longer buff uptime and makes the rotation less punishing overall. Increased access slightly to CC as well, one of its major issues.

Anet just please read this one..

[Zaret.1450]

On 7/4/2022 at 7:33 PM, Obtena.7952 said:

Vind is unlikely to be the pdps choice for Rev because of how legends work. I also don't see a problem that requires a change to it

so, the only legend that matches well with shiro is archemorus, dps wise, vindi gets gs, the only power weapon out of sw/sw becuase hammer is not a dps weapon out of pvp wvw, and you think vindi isnt the pdps elite, wich one is then? renegade? rene is condi or if youre forcing it maybe hibrid, herald? its a suport, it doesnt have a weapon and its skills are all suport like.

As for problems... the evade takes too much time in pve content, vindi lacks cc, has condis that make no sense in its skill set, and it still feels clucky in some areas, like gs3 being 400 and not 900 range.

ah also, vicktor is completely useless out of its heal for a dps vindi in a oh kitten situation.

I hope you understood now.

[Obtena.7952]

1 minute ago, zaswer.5246 said:

so, the only legend that matches well with shiro is archemorus, dps wise, vindi gets gs, the only power weapon out of sw/sw becuase hammer is not a dps weapon out of pvp wvw, and you think vindi isnt the pdps elite,

I didn't say Vindi isn't a pDPS elite. I didn't say Vind doesn't have problems or shouldn't get more DPS. 

My objection here is nothing more than the idea that Vindicator needs competitive pDPS just because other specs have more pDPS than it does. It's a nonsensical reasoning for giving ANYTHING more DPS. 

Edited July 22, 2022 by Obtena.7952

[Zaret.1450]

On 7/4/2022 at 7:33 PM, Obtena.7952 said:

Vind is unlikely to be the pdps choice for Rev because of how legends work. I also don't see a problem that requires a change to it

there? saying its unlikely is like saying its not the pdps elite.

At least in my opinion, if i misunderstood well

[Obtena.7952]

14 minutes ago, zaswer.5246 said:

there? saying its unlikely is like saying its not the pdps elite.

At least in my opinion, if i misunderstood well

No, that's not what 'it's like saying'. I never said Vindicator wasn't a pDPS spec. I'm saying it's unlikely to be buffed as a pDPS choice for Revenants to use in optimal teams. Reasons why have been provided. The chance it gets buffed for competitive pDPS has nothing to do with the fact that it's a pDPS elite spec. It's important to consider the context to what that post is replying to if you don't want to misinterpret it. 

I mean, if the problem is that Vindicator isn't good for teaming, DPS isn't the answer because it's simply unrealistic that Vindicator actually get buffed that much DPS just for that reason. DPS isn't going to make it desirable for an optimal team unless it's meta level DPS.

The problem I have with threads like these is that they try to justify getting more DPS because they don't 'compete' with top DPS specs yet they claim they aren't asking for meta level DPS buffs which is the only thing that will 'compete' with those top DPS specs. 

Edited July 22, 2022 by Obtena.7952

[Zaret.1450]

On 7/21/2022 at 3:55 PM, Obtena.7952 said:

Maybe. I'm not here to speculate why GW2 has this extreme meta community or why average players allow themselves to be bullied by it, resulting in them asking for ridiculous class changes they will never get. 

The important thing here is that not being meta isn't a reason to buff something, especially if the buff won't make it meta. It's a farce and it exacerbates a problem that exists in this game. 

If people want Vindicator to be more team desirable, DPS isn't the solution, just like that wasn't the solution for so many other specs in the past either. 

Sry but the comunity isnt extremely meta, in fact its the other way around, theres lots of pwople criing about how dificult it is to enter raids, build pj, earn gold, etc etc, well in my times of raiding i saw at least 3 comanders doing trainings every day and almost at any time, i did so myself, and with my clan, I learned that its a waste of my time and my effort.

SC gives you meta builds for every class, why? because if you have 7 wings to raid and only 1 hour to play a day or 2 you want to get things done and on to another thing, the more a build is optimized and the better the players do their job the easyer and faster itll be.

Every player can create a scuad and put on a tag to lead, but oh surprise they dont do it, i cant talk for everyone but most people want you to do all the job wile they enter with a soldier exotic gear that they got god knows were, and then you see VG running after them and them paniking, like... is that my fault? is it my fault if i tell them their gear is bad and they should look at sc page, and then they call me elitist, toxic, thanks for nothing etc etc?

The meta is not just a forced thing we GODS force randoms to use, its the easyest, most efficient builds, that someone has spend days to theoricraft for us so we can just build it and go to raids instead of being weeks thinking for a solution of healing dps or boon lacking, at least some respect is due.

Lastly, sry to say but there are low intensity builds that will get you inside pug groups easily, and people still cry about it, while we cry because there are classes that cant compete, a vindi might have 37k dmg, with low cc no utility etc, wile virtuoso makes 40k tons of cc and so mich utility it drowns in it, let me ask you, whose cry is because of selfishness and childlish and wich is made for diversity and to make a better game for everyone?