Game design - look at how Anet does it to find out how it shouldn't be done

[Jirian.7512]

So, we have a game. The general purpose of a game is to be engaging. Or at least so says the theory. However Anet seems to excel in developing content people hate with a passion - it's enough to go to Draconis Mons and spend 10 mins there to hear another "hell yeah, now i never have to see this place again".

 

 

Newest example - fishing. So here I am, I have 5 minutes in an hour to catch a fish - there are 3 fish like this in the collection, I've already been in the zone for 5 hours and still don't have a single one of them. Now, the fun part - to have a chance with the fish I need fishing stacks.... which means if I want the achievement I basically can't do anything in the game, because going without stacks is entirely pointless so I can't switch characters, leave the area or even go anywhere off the boat for longer than 30 sec. Absolutely, spending 15 hours in the game not able to play other than a 5-minute interval, so very engaging...........

 

 

edit: ok, make it 6 hours, so getting the actual achievement will take me about 18, repeated twice............... all of that spent on watching dumb unskippable animation,trying to get out of combat from trash mobs and not being able to do anything at all because anything I do loses me stacks. Kudoz to whoever ingenious designer who came up with that idea, I'm sure it will bring you many new players. Not.

 

 

Edited July 10, 2022 by Jirian.7512

[Freya.9075]

What I did to get the dawn dusk fish, I went there 5 min before it started and got them eventually. You don’t have to have the stacks to get them. Saved me a lot of agony and I just did other stuff I wanted meanwhile. 
 

for the other stuff it’s personal opinions and what you like or not like. I feel quite engaged when I play. Reason ppl say what they do in draconis mons is cause of the Druid stone. When i finished that, I felt the exact same way since I was burnt out at that time. However I was back a while after. As I’m sure many other players are as well. It was not about hate at all, but being tired of the same map day after day and a relief you are done with the achievement. 

[Randulf.7614]

Draconis Mons itself was one of the most popular and well regarded maps during season 3. There was a lot of praise for it at the time and it’s defo one of my favourites (albeit a dated now due to the skyscale). I’m guessing any lingering hatred is due to the druid stone repetitiveness. I think the issue there is old fashioned game design. These days players are less tolerant of repetitive tasking which I can understand.

[Jirian.7512]

3 hours ago, Freya.9075 said:

What I did to get the dawn dusk fish, I went there 5 min before it started and got them eventually. You don’t have to have the stacks to get them. Saved me a lot of agony and I just did other stuff I wanted meanwhile. 
 

for the other stuff it’s personal opinions and what you like or not like. I feel quite engaged when I play. Reason ppl say what they do in draconis mons is cause of the Druid stone. When i finished that, I felt the exact same way since I was burnt out at that time. However I was back a while after. As I’m sure many other players are as well. It was not about hate at all, but being tired of the same map day after day and a relief you are done with the achievement. 

 

How many attempts it's taken you? i'm well over hundred by now with not much luck. So yes, you don't need the stacks to get them. You can also get the festive infusion from the casino event, totally possible, a bunch of people did just that. I just do not feel a fish and a rare infusion are of same value and should require same amounts of farming.

 

And yes, the "burnt out" part is exactly what the "bad design" is. I know for sure I'm not going back to Draconis Mons even that I did like the map at the beginning. And by "not going back" i mean "i hate the map so much I won't even go to collect flax there because I don't want to see it ever again"

[Mungrul.9358]

That's just the way they've always done things since introducing titles in the first game:

 

Make some neat content.

Then, if the players want the reward from playing that content, make them repeat it until they hate it.

Then... repeat it even more for good measure.

[AliamRationem.5172]

I can't speak to the fishing stuff as I find fishing boring af and haven't bothered with the achievements.  But opinions vary widely on map design.  A lot of players really loved the HoT-style vertical map designs, including Draconis Mons.  I think it's one of the most interesting maps in the game visually and in terms of its layout.  A huge hollowed out volcano full of massive caverns and jungle?  How cool is that!?

I also consider Tangled Depths and HoT in general to be the pinnacle of open world map and gameplay design in an MMO.  I've never seen anything that comes close.  But obviously a lot of players can't stand the place.

[Gibson.4036]

43 minutes ago, Mungrul.9358 said:

That's just the way they've always done things since introducing titles in the first game:

 

Make some neat content.

Then, if the players want the reward from playing that content, make them repeat it until they hate it.

Then... repeat it even more for good measure.

Isn’t that the MMO way?

Studio makes a single player RPG, players shell out $60 and are content if it occupies them 60 hours start to finish.

But make an MMO, and players expect to play 30 hours a week for a year. What studio can generate that much content?

So we get things like time gates, ridiculous material requirements, and extremely small drop rates to get us to do the same stuff over and over.

[Labjax.2465]

Idk about with fishing, but with LW, my belief is that what happens is they are releasing it on a slower cadence than an expansion, so they want to make sure the stretch out the content so people don't get done in a week and leave, causing them to crutch on ticky tacky time-gates. Which isn't the worst thing ever when that's the only new content to do. But when it stops being the brand new, they just leave it like that. And this type of content stacks up over time. And then you have people coming in who are new or returning who didn't experience this content's time-gates as the brand new and they have to take it on in a half dead state, with time-gates on top of it, while having to prioritize it against tons of other goals like it. Which can become overwhelming and make them feel like they will never truly "catch up" to other players.

So... my belief is that content like this should be revisited when it's no longer the brand new and have time-gates either lessened or removed. And they should actually plan for that with any more content like it, as a means of making the content more fun to engage with when they no longer have the excuse of needing to keep people there because it's the brand new. Rather than just making it like that and then forgetting about it.

[Gibson.4036]

4 minutes ago, AliamRationem.5172 said:

I can't speak to the fishing stuff as I find fishing boring af and haven't bothered with the achievements.  But opinions vary widely on map design.  A lot of players really loved the HoT-style vertical map designs, including Draconis Mons.  I think it's one of the most interesting maps in the game visually and in terms of its layout.  A huge hollowed out volcano full of massive caverns and jungle?  How cool is that!?

I also consider Tangled Depths and HoT in general to be the pinnacle of open world map and gameplay design in an MMO.  I've never seen anything that comes close.  But obviously a lot of players can't stand the place.

There’s a lot of really great things in DM, but the verticality does frustrate me. I get the general helix layout, but the map does not function well in figuring out where an event might be happening.

If they could ever give us back the distance readout, I think that would completely solve it for me. Back when we had that feature, you could judge by the reading where something was vertically by how close you were horizontally.

I wonder why we lost it. Was it an intentional removal? Or something to do with code that they intended to fix but just never have?

[Gibson.4036]

3 minutes ago, Labjax.2465 said:

Idk about with fishing, but with LW, my belief is that what happens is they are releasing it on a slower cadence than an expansion, so they want to make sure the stretch out the content so people don't get done in a week and leave, causing them to crutch on ticky tacky time-gates. Which isn't the worst thing ever when that's the only new content to do. But when it stops being the brand new, they just leave it like that. And this type of content stacks up over time. And then you have people coming in who are new or returning who didn't experience this content's time-gates as the brand new and they have to take it on in a half dead state, with time-gates on top of it, while having to prioritize it against tons of other goals like it. Which can become overwhelming and make them feel like they will never truly "catch up" to other players.

So... my belief is that content like this should be revisited when it's no longer the brand new and have time-gates either lessened or removed. And they should actually plan for that with any more content like it, as a means of making the content more fun to engage with when they no longer have the excuse of needing to keep people there because it's the brand new. Rather than just making it like that and then forgetting about it.

I like this idea of sun-setting old time gates. They wouldn’t need to be completely eliminated, just gradually reduced the older the content is.

That would have the added benefit of letting brand new players not feel like they have a decade long wall of stuff keeping them from “catching up”.

[Jirian.7512]

35 minutes ago, Gibson.4036 said:

But make an MMO, and players expect to play 30 hours a week for a year. What studio can generate that much content?

So we get things like time gates, ridiculous material requirements, and extremely small drop rates to get us to do the same stuff over and over.

 

but they have the content - they just work very hard to make it not playable/enjoyable. The storms of winter in bjora is broken for how long now? Over 6 months? With their "carefully tested "balance" patch" they managed to break fractals as well, so to use mistlock you need to /gg multiple times or it doesn't work.

[charrboiledeggs.8164]

8 hours ago, Jirian.7512 said:

So, we have a game. The general purpose of a game is to be engaging. Or at least so says the theory. However Anet seems to excel in developing content people hate with a passion - it's enough to go to Draconis Mons and spend 10 mins there to hear another "hell yeah, now i never have to see this place again".

 

 

Newest example - fishing. So here I am, I have 5 minutes in an hour to catch a fish - there are 3 fish like this in the collection, I've already been in the zone for 5 hours and still don't have a single one of them. Now, the fun part - to have a chance with the fish I need fishing stacks.... which means if I want the achievement I basically can't do anything in the game, because going without stacks is entirely pointless so I can't switch characters, leave the area or even go anywhere off the boat for longer than 30 sec. Absolutely, spending 15 hours in the game not able to play other than a 5-minute interval, so very engaging...........

 

 

edit: ok, make it 6 hours, so getting the actual achievement will take me about 18, repeated twice............... all of that spent on watching dumb unskippable animation,trying to get out of combat from trash mobs and not being able to do anything at all because anything I do loses me stacks. Kudoz to whoever ingenious designer who came up with that idea, I'm sure it will bring you many new players. Not.

 

 

surprised they havent removed this thread yet since they like removing everything they dont agree with or if you dont talk pretty to them

[Freya.9075]

3 hours ago, Jirian.7512 said:

 

How many attempts it's taken you? i'm well over hundred by now with not much luck. So yes, you don't need the stacks to get them. You can also get the festive infusion from the casino event, totally possible, a bunch of people did just that. I just do not feel a fish and a rare infusion are of same value and should require same amounts of farming.

 

And yes, the "burnt out" part is exactly what the "bad design" is. I know for sure I'm not going back to Draconis Mons even that I did like the map at the beginning. And by "not going back" i mean "i hate the map so much I won't even go to collect flax there because I don't want to see it ever again"

I don’t know how many tries it took, but I did finish it quite some time ago. I didn’t really count the times since I just focused on doing the dawn/dusk when it was and it didn’t really bother me. 
 

there are some tedious achievements in the game, but you need to remember some ppl actually enjoy these. Which is why I just tend to push through them and be done with them. It’s long term goals and it’s your own choice to do them as fast as you can and make it burn yourself out. I know I have with several of the collections and achievements in this game. But I don’t see it as bad design. This is an mmo which means many players with different view on content needs to be catered to. No one forced me to do these collections and they can be skipped. 

[kiri.1467]

Are you sure you're in the right place at the right time with the right bait? I had a similar problem, but forgot I had the wrong bait equipped... Also, Canthan day/night is not the same as Tyrian day/night. Otherwise, sometimes rng is just rng (which, while I love fishing, the almost pure rng is the one thing I hate - no matter how good I am at the game, I could quite possibly never finish those achievements).

[Andur.9275]

8 hours ago, Gibson.4036 said:

Isn’t that the MMO way?

Studio makes a single player RPG, players shell out $60 and are content if it occupies them 60 hours start to finish.

But make an MMO, and players expect to play 30 hours a week for a year. What studio can generate that much content?

So we get things like time gates, ridiculous material requirements, and extremely small drop rates to get us to do the same stuff over and over.

Yeah, that's sadly the way most MMOs handle it.

IMHO it would be way better to give some sandbox elements to the players where they can become creative once they finished the themepark part of the game. Whether it's by engaging PvP (GW2 tried that) or creating something on their own (fashion wars is not bad but something like housing comes to my mind. Or take our beetle racing scene as an example: ANet provided us with sufficient tools to keep us going for years. Sure it it could be improved but the basics are all there).

This way the developers are able to provide content that will keep their customers busy for a long while (without unnecessarily grindy achievements) and they have enough time to release the next themepark story or polish old content and mechanics.

[Randulf.7614]

8 hours ago, Jirian.7512 said:

 

but they have the content - they just work very hard to make it not playable/enjoyable. The storms of winter in bjora is broken for how long now? Over 6 months? With their "carefully tested "balance" patch" they managed to break fractals as well, so to use mistlock you need to /gg multiple times or it doesn't work.

They’ve still not fixed the boss of that event yet?

[Jirian.7512]

Just now, Randulf.7614 said:

They’ve still not fixed the boss of that event yet?

 

last i've been here i've seen a bunch of people trying to kill the giant under the gate to let the Hunger escort out.

 

 

 

6 hours ago, kiri.1467 said:

Are you sure you're in the right place at the right time with the right bait? I had a similar problem, but forgot I had the wrong bait equipped... Also, Canthan day/night is not the same as Tyrian day/night. Otherwise, sometimes rng is just rng (which, while I love fishing, the almost pure rng is the one thing I hate - no matter how good I am at the game, I could quite possibly never finish those achievements).

 

yes, I am. And I've met people there who have been coming to get that fish every dusk and dawn for days

[Astralporing.1957]

9 hours ago, AliamRationem.5172 said:

But opinions vary widely on map design.  A lot of players really loved the HoT-style vertical map designs, including Draconis Mons.

Like you said, opinions can vary, and i am sure some people liked it, but when HoT went in, Verdant Brink was almost universally hated for its vertical design. And it wasn't considered the worst map of the expansion only because Tangled Depths was even worse. It took years (and the introduction of mounts - especially Griffon and Skyscale) for that perception to change. 

And Draconis Mons wasn't really regarded all that well (and the Druid backpack timegate didn't exacly help - especially for players that came in later, and had to do their stuff on map that is for generally devoid of other players).

[AliamRationem.5172]

42 minutes ago, Astralporing.1957 said:

Like you said, opinions can vary, and i am sure some people liked it, but when HoT went in, Verdant Brink was almost universally hated for its vertical design. And it wasn't considered the worst map of the expansion only because Tangled Depths was even worse. It took years (and the introduction of mounts - especially Griffon and Skyscale) for that perception to change. 

And Draconis Mons wasn't really regarded all that well (and the Druid backpack timegate didn't exacly help - especially for players that came in later, and had to do their stuff on map that is for generally devoid of other players).

LoL @ "opinions vary but it was universally hated".  Just like it is today, a lot of people can't handle the slightest frustration.  Others were able to see that as a challenge and appreciate Verdant Brink for being possibly the best example in the game of story integration with open world.  You really feel that moment you set foot into the jungle and see the aftermath of what happens at the end of season 2.  It was all very well done and the map is a great playground for the new glider mastery.

I understand why we shouldn't have every map designed the way VB and TD were, but it's sad that they decided to throw out all of the great work they did with HoT in the later expansions.  It would have been nice if they had kept the things that worked and made at least a map here and there that was a little more interesting to navigate.  Echovald seems like boring flat plane with contrived obstacles by comparison, but I suppose they didn't have time to put in the work to create a masterpiece like tangled depths there.

[Gorem.8104]

I mean to be fair, when HoT released was probably the biggest dip in player count the game has ever seen, it did take years for it to become the games most popular area that everyone likes now, and mounts are rather obviously one of those reasons. Myself, only experienced HoT with mounts, and had a blast. They stood the test of time and ended up being something we all wish the game had more of. HoT just had so much content. 

 

As for the paid for fishing expansion where most games get fishing free, I'm surprised people are even spending time hunting the fish, the whole system seems half thought and badly designed. 

[AliamRationem.5172]

2 minutes ago, Gorem.8104 said:

I mean to be fair, when HoT released was probably the biggest dip in player count the game has ever seen, it did take years for it to become the games most popular area that everyone likes now, and mounts are rather obviously one of those reasons. Myself, only experienced HoT with mounts, and had a blast. They stood the test of time and ended up being something we all wish the game had more of. HoT just had so much content. 

 

As for the paid for fishing expansion where most games get fishing free, I'm surprised people are even spending time hunting the fish, the whole system seems half thought and badly designed. 

Mounts definitely helped more people to appreciate it.  No doubt about that.  That's all the more reason to have some new maps with that kind of style!  I also think HoT got it right with the event structure.  The big metas are obviously popular, but I think the regular event chains all tying the local areas of the map into the overall story arc were more fun than boring hearts and one-off events we see in PoF and EoD.

[Jukhy.2431]

I think you are mixing up the collections. There is no dawn/dusk fish listed for the achievement in Draconis Mons. See: https://wiki.guildwars2.com/wiki/Ring_of_Fire_Fisher#Achievement

Only achie with three dusk/dawn fishes is the Ascalonian one, Orrian fisher has two and there's four achies with one dusk/dawn fish. You can sort fish with this list: https://wiki.guildwars2.com/wiki/List_of_fish#Types

[Jirian.7512]

4 minutes ago, Jukhy.2431 said:

I think you are mixing up the collections. There is no dawn/dusk fish listed for the achievement in Draconis Mons. See: https://wiki.guildwars2.com/wiki/Ring_of_Fire_Fisher#Achievement

Only achie with three dusk/dawn fishes is the Ascalonian one, Orrian fisher has two and there's four achies with one dusk/dawn fish. You can sort fish with this list: https://wiki.guildwars2.com/wiki/List_of_fish#Types

 

no, i'm providing 2 separate examples as it's quite clearly stated in the post. But thanks for stating the obvious.

[Gehenna.3625]

18 hours ago, Jirian.7512 said:

So, we have a game. The general purpose of a game is to be engaging. Or at least so says the theory. However Anet seems to excel in developing content people hate with a passion - it's enough to go to Draconis Mons and spend 10 mins there to hear another "hell yeah, now i never have to see this place again".

I dunno about this one. This is for an ascended backpack and counts towards a legendary as well. Having to do four hearts that take like 20 minutes altogether for a couple of weeks, smacks more of drama queen behavior than anything else. I mean, it is repetitious but it hardly warrants those comments. I think it's become more of a meme anyway. 

18 hours ago, Jirian.7512 said:

Newest example - fishing. So here I am, I have 5 minutes in an hour to catch a fish - there are 3 fish like this in the collection, I've already been in the zone for 5 hours and still don't have a single one of them. Now, the fun part - to have a chance with the fish I need fishing stacks.... which means if I want the achievement I basically can't do anything in the game, because going without stacks is entirely pointless so I can't switch characters, leave the area or even go anywhere off the boat for longer than 30 sec. Absolutely, spending 15 hours in the game not able to play other than a 5-minute interval, so very engaging...........

 

 

edit: ok, make it 6 hours, so getting the actual achievement will take me about 18, repeated twice............... all of that spent on watching dumb unskippable animation,trying to get out of combat from trash mobs and not being able to do anything at all because anything I do loses me stacks. Kudoz to whoever ingenious designer who came up with that idea, I'm sure it will bring you many new players. Not.

The fishing one I do agree with. My wife loves the fishing...except for that. Those 5 minutes of dusk and dawn each, just drive her up the walls. And getting attacked by mobs infuriates her in general (she just wants to enjoy the fishing) but it also cuts into those 5 minutes. 

[kharmin.7683]

1 hour ago, Gorem.8104 said:

I mean to be fair, when HoT released was probably the biggest dip in player count the game has ever seen, it did take years for it to become the games most popular area that everyone likes now, and mounts are rather obviously one of those reasons.

I'm not so sure it has popularity now due to mounts.  Isn't more likely due to the rewards structure?