the state of CC spam from enemies in PvE

[AliamRationem.5172]

27 minutes ago, Labjax.2465 said:

This is so wrong I don't even know where to begin. Telegraphing is an action combat thing. And NOWHERE did I say or imply that improving via practice is undesirable. It's funny how people who are quietly elitist tell on themselves eventually in one way or another. So quick to think I just want an easier game.

I expected more from you. I don't know why.

You do want an easier game.  That's what happens when you make combat slower.  Adding clear telegraphs requires giving players time to react to them.  Or else why have them?  Like I said, it shifts the game away from anticipation to more of a reactionary state.  You wait for the telegraph and then react to it.  That slows things down.

I'm sorry if you feel it's elitist for me to make that observation or that it implies that you want an easier game, but don't you?  Is that not exactly what you're asking for?  Slower combat pacing with telegraphs that are easier to read and react to?  If not, why not drop the salt and explain what you really want?

[Labjax.2465]

44 minutes ago, Shuzuru.3651 said:

Except... He is right, RPG, by nature, is about memorizing enemies abilities, because RPG is turn based, in it's origin, so unless an enemy take a turn charging an attack (it's rare), the concept of telegraph doesn't exist.

Knowing what an enemy can do is crucial in an RPG, by definition. That's also why in this type of game, you usually don't fight big group of enemy you don't, it's better to start with smaller groups to learn the enemies abilities

Nope. There is plenty of RPG combat out there that has nothing to do with memorizing every ability an enemy has (and the timing of it in real-time, which is fundamentally not a turn-based thing and has to do with twitch combat instincts). In practice, RPGs are often more about being prepared beforehand... with your armor, skills, etc. I think what you and one or two others are revealing is that you approach RPGs like an encyclopedia and you've just figured wrongly that everyone else does all this time; you also seem to be projecting this image of turn-based combat onto GW2 combat where it is convenient for supporting your argument and then saying it's action combat when turn-based stops being convenient. What I was proposing in the OP was that you get information you can realistically react to and you have a rewarding way to counter it. Which ironically, is pretty much in line with what the people pushing this thing about RPGs seem to want by what they say. But in reality, it's looking like what you really want is for things to stay the same and saying that wouldn't be an argument, so you have to make it into something fundamentally wrong with how I presented things.

I mean, I got told that, unless I greatly misread, lying on the ground and eating CC with sustain is countering it. I got told to switch classes if a particular one isn't sufficient. If people want to say they like the system as it is, no matter how flawed it is, I support you in saying that if that's how you feel and if I read something like that, you know how I'll probably react: "oh, I should remember that not everybody enjoys the same things." But if people start twisting design into a pretzel and putting words in my mouth, I have no sympathy for that at all.

[Gehenna.3625]

3 minutes ago, AliamRationem.5172 said:

You do want an easier game.  That's what happens when you make combat slower. 

This is where you're mistaken. Slower combat doesn't equate to easier gameplay. In other words the assumption that slower combat makes it easier by definition is false. It can also be really faster paced and be easy as hell, for example. 

[AliamRationem.5172]

Just now, Gehenna.3625 said:

This is where you're mistaken. Slower combat doesn't equate to easier gameplay. In other words the assumption that slower combat makes it easier by definition is false. It can also be really faster paced and be easy as hell, for example. 

True.  If you change other factors.  Is that the discussion we're having, though?  It seems to me what we're asking for here is to rely more on reacting to clear telegraphs than the current model which relies more heavily on anticipation and less obvious animation-based telegraphs.  All things being equal, that will slow the combat down.  Wouldn't you say?

[Labjax.2465]

29 minutes ago, AliamRationem.5172 said:

You do want an easier game.  That's what happens when you make combat slower.  Adding clear telegraphs requires giving players time to react to them.  Or else why have them?  Like I said, it shifts the game away from anticipation to more of a reactionary state.  You wait for the telegraph and then react to it.  That slows things down.

I'm sorry if you feel it's elitist for me to make that observation or that it implies that you want an easier game, but don't you?  Is that not exactly what you're asking for?  Slower combat pacing with telegraphs that are easier to read and react to?  If not, why not drop the salt and explain what you really want?

It's not how I feel. It betrays an elitist mentality because, most importantly, your conclusion is that I want things to be easier and am somehow hiding it. Even if your reasoning was solid (it's all over the place) you could come up with any number of conclusions, such as that I don't understand what I'm asking for or that what I'm asking for is unrealistic or whatever. Instead, you go straight for "you want things easier."

Regarding your reasoning, for example, you said before:

Quote

the fast-paced combat in GW2 is the major draw to me

And now you're saying that telegraphs:

Quote

shifts the game away from anticipation to more of a reactionary state.

So... you like combat because it's fast-paced but you don't want it to be something that you react to? Anticipation as distinct from reactionary sounds suspiciously like you're saying you want combat you can predict ahead of time, which doesn't make a whole lot of sense with "fast-paced." Fast-paced is usually associated with reacting to things in real-time...

I can guess that what you are envisioning is something like telegraphs that appear and give you 5 seconds to react, and so you are thinking it will be slower, but the way you are describing it makes no sense at all.

Edit: Also, many a red circle on the ground is what I'd call well telegraphed and it's still something you need to react to quickly. If that alleviates any of your concern. I can only guess.

Edited July 13, 2022 by Labjax.2465

[Gehenna.3625]

19 minutes ago, AliamRationem.5172 said:

True.  If you change other factors.  Is that the discussion we're having, though?  It seems to me what we're asking for here is to rely more on reacting to clear telegraphs than the current model which relies more heavily on anticipation and less obvious animation-based telegraphs.  All things being equal, that will slow the combat down.  Wouldn't you say?

Well, whether or not it will slow things down depends. For example: 20 seconds into the fight a CC happens. If the fight stays the same otherwise then adding a telegraph doesn't slow things down. But if you add extra time to add a telegraph then it will slow things down.

I mean, you could get a temporary bar on the screen somewhere that empties out in one second as a telegraph without changing anything to the fight itself. It's just a visual warning to let you know CC is coming. Just like there are circles on the floor telling you to gtfo. So in that case it wouldn't slow anything down.

 However, I don't think that everything deserves a telegraph and I think that's where the discussion originally started and I don't see any reason to start adding more to the screen during OW boss fights. You see, during those boss fights there's so much going on already, I lovingly refer to them as a rainbow exploding on my screen.

 

[AliamRationem.5172]

9 minutes ago, Labjax.2465 said:

It's not how I feel. It betrays an elitist mentality because, most importantly, your conclusion is that I want things to be easier and am somehow hiding it. Even if your reasoning was solid (it's all over the place) you could come up with any number of conclusions, such as that I don't understand what I'm asking for or that what I'm asking for is unrealistic or whatever. Instead, you go straight for "you want things easier."

Regarding your reasoning, for example, you said before:

And now you're saying that telegraphs:

So... you like combat because it's fast-paced but you don't want it to be something that you react to? Anticipation as distinct from reactionary sounds suspiciously like you're saying you want combat you can predict ahead of time, which doesn't make a whole lot of sense with "fast-paced." Fast-paced is usually associated with reacting to things in real-time...

I can guess that what you are envisioning is something like telegraphs that appear and give you 5 seconds to react, and so you are thinking it will be slower, but the way you are describing it makes no sense at all.

Edit: Also, many a red circle on the ground is what I'd call well telegraphed and it's still something you need to react to quickly. If that alleviates any of your concern. I can only guess.

No, I understand perfectly well what you're asking for.  You want more of the same sort of telegraphs we already have that feature orange cones and circles.  As I said, there would be no point in using such a telegraph without providing players with sufficient time to react to them.  That doesn't require "5 seconds", but it does generally require more time or else why even have the telegraph? 

As I said, I'm fine with the types of telegraphs you want, but I don't like the idea of relying more heavily on these telegraphs than we already do.  Relative to the system we have, it places more emphasis on reacting to UI telegraphs.  I prefer the mix we have.

If you want an example of this, look at the mushroom king HP in Auric Basin.  It uses both UI and animation-based telegraphed CCs as well as an untelegraphed CC.  This is one of those enemies that definitely fits the description of "spamming CC".  I personally find it rewarding to try to deal with this boss at melee range without getting knocked around like a ragdoll.  The challenge there is trying to avoid the untelegraphed charge knockdown without exhausting your resources and getting hit by the slower telegraphed CCs.

Here's a video clip.  The thing about predicting this enemy's behavior is that you're guessing.  You can't tell when he takes a couple of steps is he going to use his leap or charge and run you over?  There's some guesswork there, and if you just dodge every time he moves you're going to run out of tricks to pull and end up getting ragdolled.  For me, getting this right is part of the fun of the combat system.  If all he did was put red circles, of course I can easily just dodge out of the way of that.  It's very slow.  It's only the fact that he has that untelegraphed charge that makes this fight remotely interesting (and if you don't like that it is easily bypassed by using a ranged weapon!).

[AliamRationem.5172]

35 minutes ago, Gehenna.3625 said:

Well, whether or not it will slow things down depends. For example: 20 seconds into the fight a CC happens. If the fight stays the same otherwise then adding a telegraph doesn't slow things down. But if you add extra time to add a telegraph then it will slow things down.

I mean, you could get a temporary bar on the screen somewhere that empties out in one second as a telegraph without changing anything to the fight itself. It's just a visual warning to let you know CC is coming. Just like there are circles on the floor telling you to gtfo. So in that case it wouldn't slow anything down.

 However, I don't think that everything deserves a telegraph and I think that's where the discussion originally started and I don't see any reason to start adding more to the screen during OW boss fights. You see, during those boss fights there's so much going on already, I lovingly refer to them as a rainbow exploding on my screen.

 

Alright, so what do you think of something like the hydra meteorites?  That's an attack that I would say operates on anticipation rather than reaction, but it does provide a reactionary telegraph, albeit a very brief one.  You can wait for the red circle and dodge, but you're rewarded for anticipating the move as you can stay in motion to avoid them without dodging. 

Is that what we're asking for here?  More of that?  I get the distinct impression that's not the case and what the OP actually wants would be telegraph indicators more like Ezal the Quick's cone knockback, which gives players a very obvious UI indicator and about a full second to react to it.

Does that place the discussion in context?  I'm fine with the cone/circle indicators.  I just want to keep things like Ezal's torch throw (it also has a circle, but the attack you really want to dodge is the projectile before the circle appears) and those hydra meteorites vs. having everything (or most things) follow the Ezal cone knockback model of huge, obvious telegraphs with a relatively large reaction time before they hit.

[Hashberry.4510]

Ya I would much rather they used a casting bar, the existing system is just bad.

[Cuks.8241]

2 hours ago, Hashberry.4510 said:

Ya I would much rather they used a casting bar, the existing system is just bad.

Oh pls no. Existing system is not bad, animation reading is completely normal for action games.

For me casting bars like in WoW kill a part of the game, which is reading animations and patterns. Wow is an extreme case with all the hand holding you can have in that game with all the raid UI and DBM and such addons and you are not even looking at the animations anymore. Seeing the enemy model is usually not even required.

Gw2 has sufficiently good animations and telegraphs that it doesn't require all that hand holding and I think its clean system suits the fast paced action combat much better. There are big problems with visual clarity but those only come with many players and 99% of the content there is just easy mode.

I think the animation telegraphs are quite good in general. Most hard hitting or special attack have clear animations. Like mordrem charging a hammer before knock back... Maybe the issue with CC overload comes when youre fighting large groups, but no UI help would help there. Basically you need to take preemptive measures if you think CC could be an issue where the most effective is usually CC and kill them before they can react. It is OW we are talking about. Most of the time you're just mowing down everything. God forbid something fights back.

[Hashberry.4510]

1 hour ago, Cuks.8241 said:

Wow is an extreme case with all the hand holding you can have in that game with all the raid UI and DBM and such addons and you are not even looking at the animations anymore. Seeing the enemy model is usually not even required.

Yes, this is what the game needs if they want everyone to handle hard content. It will stay a minor part of the game without it. 

[Gehenna.3625]

4 hours ago, AliamRationem.5172 said:

Alright, so what do you think of something like the hydra meteorites?  That's an attack that I would say operates on anticipation rather than reaction, but it does provide a reactionary telegraph, albeit a very brief one.  You can wait for the red circle and dodge, but you're rewarded for anticipating the move as you can stay in motion to avoid them without dodging. 

Is that what we're asking for here?  More of that?  I get the distinct impression that's not the case and what the OP actually wants would be telegraph indicators more like Ezal the Quick's cone knockback, which gives players a very obvious UI indicator and about a full second to react to it.

Does that place the discussion in context?  I'm fine with the cone/circle indicators.  I just want to keep things like Ezal's torch throw (it also has a circle, but the attack you really want to dodge is the projectile before the circle appears) and those hydra meteorites vs. having everything (or most things) follow the Ezal cone knockback model of huge, obvious telegraphs with a relatively large reaction time before they hit.

I'm not sure why you're asking me this. I don't necessarily agree with the OP, so I wouldn't be a good person to judge what he's asking for specifically. I just made the point that telegraphing doesn't by itself mean slower combat and gave examples in support of that to clarify my point.

I think it depends on the boss fight what makes sense to telegraph and what not. In the end OW bosses are either hardly a threat for dying (but are still annoying) or they have insta kill mechanics that are overused and cheap. And the more players there are, the less it matters. But in the end each boss fight will have to be judged individually. There is no one-size-fits-all solution. 

 

[Cuks.8241]

51 minutes ago, Hashberry.4510 said:

Yes, this is what the game needs if they want everyone to handle hard content. It will stay a minor part of the game without it. 

Nah. First, Gw2 hard content is not that hard.

What happens with those helping tools is that the bar for "hard" moves higher. Wow raids didnt become easier, the fights got tighter, more mechanics... and thus compensated for addons. What happens though that all those tools became mandatory. Unless the goal is straight up lower difficulty of the harder content but that can be done also in other ways (and they just did it with emboldened raids).

I just prefer cleaner with eyes on the fight and animations type of combat.

[Sobx.1758]

On 7/13/2022 at 1:51 PM, Gehenna.3625 said:

This is where you're mistaken. Slower combat doesn't equate to easier gameplay. In other words the assumption that slower combat makes it easier by definition is false. It can also be really faster paced and be easy as hell, for example. 

Maybe if you -for some reason?- want to go on with widely generalized claims. But within gw2 if you make the combat slower, give more time to react then it just gets easier. What's wrong about that here?

Edited July 19, 2022 by Sobx.1758

[Infinity.2876]

In one of those guys who thinks damage and cc should be equivalent to cast time straight across the board

[Dante.1508]

That Giant in dry top... I gave up even attempting it. Sol Eater just breaks and goes permanently invulnerable.. Anet do not care its not cash shop based..

Everyone stands around waiting for skritt queens quartz, no one even bothers with the giant even on Dry top daily events...😂

Edited July 14, 2022 by Dante.1508

[HowlKamui.5120]

To be honest this has become a good discussion from both sides! To your point, yes, some RPGs rely on telegraphs, some do not... and GW2, with its hybrid gameplay is right down the middle.  GW2 has always been a hybrid tab-target, and action MMO, and even in the mechanics it's a hybrid. Some are telegraphed, some are not. 

Honestly, of all the MMOs ive tried, gw2 has the best combat in combination with building your character, CC spam and all, and while I think there's always room for improvement, I do not want every cc to be telegraphed simply because it will push builds to be more glass cannon. If everything is avoidable, what is the point of having tanky open world builds...

 

It's similar in concept to raids where there are telegraphed avoidable attacks, and there are raid wides.  If everything in raids is avoidable, then what is the point of having a healer?  IMO the current system, with its flaws, enables multiple builds, and the direction of your suggestions would be a step back. But that's my opinion. I do have some suggestions to improve combat but that is for anoher thread.
 

[Zera.9435]

The real travesty is where you get CC'd by something and stun break doesn't actually do anything for you.

[Dante.1508]

On 7/14/2022 at 3:05 PM, Zera Allimatti.2541 said:

The real travesty is where you get CC'd by something and stun break doesn't actually do anything for you.

Seems to happening more and more in newer content.

[ShogenX.9254]

CC spam in this game is beyond kitten at the moment it takes me back to when i used to play another popular game and warlocks had endless amounts of fear... like pvp at the moment consist of endless CC and the harbs shroud 5 is kittenously bad in pvp

 

and the cc in pve is getting so bad, if they wanted to make difficult content they should focus on mechanics like boon conversion and agro systems that shift between different threats, they shouldnt just make content that punishes because your not running 1 very specific boon

 

 

 

[Sobx.1758]

29 minutes ago, ShogenX.9254 said:

CC spam in this game is beyond kitten at the moment it takes me back to when i used to play another popular game and warlocks had endless amounts of fear... like pvp at the moment consist of endless CC and the harbs shroud 5 is kittenously bad in pvp

Wrong thread/subforum 😄

Quote

and the cc in pve is getting so bad

Where does it get that bad?

Edited July 19, 2022 by Sobx.1758

[Astralporing.1957]

On 7/12/2022 at 8:32 AM, Antycypator.9874 said:

PvE needs this. It's a great way to bang and kill most of the glass-cannon players.

It's the opposite. No matter how tanky you are, with how prolific CCs have become lately, you will eventually run out of dodges, stunbreaks, cleanses, heals etc. If your opponents are still alive by then (because your dps is rock bottom due to going into survivability), then you'll die anyway. And the tradeoff for adding some survivability loses you way, way more of your damage capabilities. If you want to survive twice as long, it will cost you increasing your time to kill your enemies not twofold, mut more four- or fivefold. It's just not worth it for the most part. So, the best approach is still to just kill opponents as fast as possible, to deny them the chance of using those CCs on you.

[Astralporing.1957]

On 7/13/2022 at 7:49 PM, Hashberry.4510 said:

Yes, this is what the game needs if they want everyone to handle hard content. It will stay a minor part of the game without it. 

It's ironic, then, that this is primarily an issue with the low tier content. In high tier content attacks generally are well-telegraphed, CCs are rare and easy to notice/avoid, and there's a very limited number of enemies that can use those CCs on you in sequence. Low tier content however just goes into CC spam by trash mobs, on top of boss/environmental effects.

Example: Dragonstorm.

During the early Braham fight (to concentrate on a single case), you get boss that uses knockback AoE. that's fine, this is easily visible and dodgeable. On top of it, you get meteors with their own knockback waves. Again, no sweat. Then you get the big elite destroyer charging around. But wait, the small adds can do the knockdown jumps as well, and while some of those are telegraphed, the telegraphs are small and barely visible in the overall marker spam in that fight. Not to mention that some of the cc's apparently aren;t telegraphed at all.

During later Braham phases, you don;t have the big elite destroyer anymore, but you have the big frog dragon with its own set of cc-ing attacks. As well as a zone of overlapping attacks from the second boss  (and its trash mobs) nearby.

Sure, it's not a hard fight, and with enough players you don't generally run a danger of dying, but it's entirely possible to just get knocked around, or even chain-cced  for tens of seconds at one go. And while it's not hard, it's not fun either - quite opposite, it's really annoying. And it does not really teach you anything either, btw.

And all that is not something new, Anet has been just slowly but consistently increasing usage of cc effects over time. Why they think it's a good idea is beyond me.

[Gibson.4036]

I'll also add that following the typical video game design of making "boss" foes larger, it's easier to actually see what they are doing. I was noticing this recently running a new character through early story. In the middle of my Guardian flash it's a lot harder to see the movements of a normal human sized mob than the generally larger champs and elites. I was laughing at the fact that I can avoid a ton of champ attacks, but kept getting knocked around by these low level enemies, even watching carefully for their animations.

[Sobx.1758]

1 hour ago, Astralporing.1957 said:

It's the opposite. No matter how tanky you are, with how prolific CCs have become lately, you will eventually run out of dodges, stunbreaks, cleanses, heals etc.

It's not even about somehow suddenly going full tank, just having other utility-oriented options than pure dps. I don't know how you keep running out of options and get cced so hard, but somehow I'm not. Maybe stop treating stun breaks as something that's supposed to enable you to eat every cc effect thrown at you.

Edited July 19, 2022 by Sobx.1758