So why is the bunker Vindicator back?

[Hotride.2187]

I had a conquest game 1-2 days ago with a vindicator on the opponent team, I also dueled one in wvw last Saturday. I stopped playing conquest on eod release because of the (same?) infinite sustain vindicator build (basically bringing wvw watching-the-paint-dry "gameplay" in conquest). And now its back again, with slightly less sustain and slightly more frequent "bursts"?

The scrapper on my team commented (after a total of 3 players from my team took their time to kill the vindicator on home node) "kitten raid boss". I'm sure none of us were top players and that was a part of the problem, but neither was the rev player. Why does it have so much sustain?

Now, as a spb I can probably stall forever and contest/keep a node... if I play with only a few mistakes. But killing that thing 1v1? After a few years I might be able to (in the wvw duels I think it took me 5+ min). Just the dodge animation takes forever to finish and you cant touch them during that?

So I have to ask, why is that thing back? Didn't it get deleted soon after launch, for good reasons? Can you give it something else to do, e.g. support, or actually deal dmg like herald? Or there are players who actually enjoy fighting an infinite dmg/evade sponge? I do see there are players who enjoy playing it, but that is nothing new; otherwise bunkers would not exist... Can't you not add more of those builds though?

Edited July 13, 2022 by Hotride.2187

[Guirssane.7082]

Just let 1 player hit him on node and rotate

[Stand The Wall.6987]

its back cuz bunker buster builds aren't meta and anet refuses to do a general rebuffing to the game. nerfing won't solve anything at this point but replace it with a less annoying infinite sustain build.

[Azure The Heartless.3261]

3 hours ago, Stand The Wall.6987 said:

nerfing won't solve anything at this point but replace it with a less annoying infinite sustain build.

Correct. People are mad at Tempest now, because they were mad at damage before, and got what they wanted.

I keep saying this but if you all don't want to fight for centuries, people will need to get over their kneejerk reaction to getting hit like a truck by things designed to do that. 

Nerfed willbender a lil bit, cool. Guess what happens now. 

Maybe some people like fighting for centuries though, who knows~

Edited July 13, 2022 by Azure The Heartless.3261

[Hotride.2187]

14 minutes ago, Azure The Heartless.3261 said:

Nerfed willbender a lil bit, cool. Guess what happens now.

I'm playing unranked though, I see like 1 willbender in 3 days. People play whatever there, I doubt it has to do with willbender nerfs.

My question is more like... didn't they delete this bunker build already? Was it buffed again so its back? I don't follow rev changes too much and theres been a lot of pve crap I didn't read through...

[Azure The Heartless.3261]

3 minutes ago, Hotride.2187 said:

I'm playing unranked though, I see like 1 willbender in 3 days. People play whatever there, I doubt it has to do with willbender nerfs.

My question is more like... didn't they delete this bunker build already? Was it buffed again so its back? I don't follow rev changes too much and theres been a lot of pve crap I didn't read through...

 

You can still make bunker vindicator work, it was never dead. The last nerf just shook off the bandwagoners. I am sure some players are revisiting with the changes to salvation/ventari that went through recently.

Edited July 13, 2022 by Azure The Heartless.3261

[SoulBlaze.3059]

lol it isnt strong enough in my opinion. Revenant has a low health pool naturally stun spam builds will beat this every time due to rev having 2 stunbreaks that rely on class energy. revenants are a piece of cake, just stun/knockdown 3-4 times. easy. Revenant is the weakest melee class in the game rn.

[Sahne.6950]

10 hours ago, SoulBlaze.3059 said:

lol it isnt strong enough in my opinion. Revenant has a low health pool naturally stun spam builds will beat this every time due to rev having 2 stunbreaks that rely on class energy. revenants are a piece of cake, just stun/knockdown 3-4 times. easy. Revenant is the weakest melee class in the game rn.

uhm? weakest melee class? Excuse me? Have you played Warrior lately?

[Terrorhuz.4695]

15 hours ago, SoulBlaze.3059 said:

stun spam builds will beat this every time due to rev having 2 stunbreaks that rely on class energy. revenants are a piece of cake, just stun/knockdown 3-4 times. easy.

1. Landing a stun in the first place is definitely not trivial: the vindicator has basically more than 50% of the time spent in defensive frames, be it via normal dodge, evades from Surge of the Mists\Battle Dance\Riposting Shadows or blocks from Warding Rift\Imperial Guard.
2. Reaver's Rage grants stability, which can be further lengthened with imperial impact.
3. Stunbreaks on shiro\alliance having virtually no CD, they will ALWAYS be available; either the rev has the energy to stunbreak on their current legend or they swap legends and break stun with the new legend. Moreover, Imperial Impact grants some 5s protection , further lowering any chance to capitalize on a stun, while Awakening grants further protection.

TLDR:
You won't land a CC on a vindicator because they will be blocking\dodging.
If you land the CC on the vindicator, they will have stab from alliance stunbreak.
If succesfully CC a vindicator, there's always a stunbreak available because stunbreaks on shiro\alliance have virtually no CD
If there's no stunbreak either, the high amount protection will remove a good chunk of the damage, preventing a oneshot; from there, the vindicator just has to resustain, which is far from a problem when you can cycle through so many defensives. You can't prevent that, since vindicator is able to dodge while immobilized, so... you can't really do anything to secure a kill against them.

Edited July 14, 2022 by Terrorhuz.4695

[Buran.3796]

11 hours ago, Terrorhuz.4695 said:

1. [...]
2. Stunbreaks on shiro\alliance having virtually no CD, they will ALWAYS be available; either the rev has the energy to stunbreak on their current legend or they swap legends and break stun with the new legend.

   Current Vindi "meta" is Shiro + Alliance.

*  The total cost of activating all the skills from Shiro at least one time is 120;  until EoD was the most expensive legend in terms of energy spending, with Jalis, Mallyx and Kalla sitting at 90 each, and Ventari at 66. The cost of the stunbreak in Shiro (Riposting Shadows) is 30.

*  The total cost of activationg  the skills of The Alliance at least one time is 152, the "new record" (85 from Archemorus and 67 from Kurzik); the cost in energy of each one of their stunbreak is 15, but both have a cooldown of 10 seconds. More important:  SWAPING FROM ORANGE TO BLUE (or viceversa) DOESN'T RESET VINDICATOR'S ENERGY. 

   Vindis don't run Charged Mist, so all they have is a legend swap each 10 seconds with grants a reset of 50 energy and 5 energy points earned every second (if energy reaches 0 it takes 4 whole seconds to start that energy regeneration again) to pay tthe use of the skills (and I talked ONLY about the cost of the legend skills). Even swaping legends each 10 seconds and doing nothing for the next 10 seconds you'll only stack 100 energy units to spent in Shiro's 120 or Alliance's 152.

   Resume: a Vindicator can't rotate their whole legend skills every 10 seconds and if tries not only will deplete his energy pool entirely but also be unable to use any weapon skills.

   According to Terrorhuz Vindicator has always evades, blocks, stunbreaks and protection available; I wonder how it could afford such energy costs...

[ArthurDent.9538]

1 hour ago, Buran.3796 said:

   Current Vindi "meta" is Shiro + Alliance.

*  The total cost of activating all the skills from Shiro at least one time is 120;  until EoD was the most expensive legend in terms of energy spending, with Jalis, Mallyx and Kalla sitting at 90 each, and Ventari at 66. The cost of the stunbreak in Shiro (Riposting Shadows) is 30.

*  The total cost of activationg  the skills of The Alliance at least one time is 152, the "new record" (85 from Archemorus and 67 from Kurzik); the cost in energy of each one of their stunbreak is 15, but both have a cooldown of 10 seconds. More important:  SWAPING FROM ORANGE TO BLUE (or viceversa) DOESN'T RESET VINDICATOR'S ENERGY. 

   Vindis don't run Charged Mist, so all they have is a legend swap each 10 seconds with grants a reset of 50 energy and 5 energy points earned every second (if energy reaches 0 it takes 4 whole seconds to start that energy regeneration again) to pay tthe use of the skills (and I talked ONLY about the cost of the legend skills). Even swaping legends each 10 seconds and doing nothing for the next 10 seconds you'll only stack 100 energy units to spent in Shiro's 120 or Alliance's 152.

   Resume: a Vindicator can't rotate their whole legend skills every 10 seconds and if tries not only will deplete his energy pool entirely but also be unable to use any weapon skills.

   According to Terrorhuz Vindicator has always evades, blocks, stunbreaks and protection available; I wonder how it could afford such energy costs...

You are using pve values. In pvp riposting shadows is 40 energy and the aliance stunbreaks are 35 energy each.

[Buran.3796]

3 minutes ago, ArthurDent.9538 said:

You are using pve values. In pvp riposting shadows is 40 energy and the aliance stunbreaks are 35 energy each.

   More on my favour.

[SoulBlaze.3059]

lol just play elementalist and burst for 20K damage while being essentially invincible due to a perma block and overshield.

[Terrorhuz.4695]

11 hours ago, Buran.3796 said:

   Current Vindi "meta" is Shiro + Alliance.

*  The total cost of activating all the skills from Shiro at least one time is 120;  until EoD was the most expensive legend in terms of energy spending, with Jalis, Mallyx and Kalla sitting at 90 each, and Ventari at 66. The cost of the stunbreak in Shiro (Riposting Shadows) is 30.

*  The total cost of activationg  the skills of The Alliance at least one time is 152, the "new record" (85 from Archemorus and 67 from Kurzik); the cost in energy of each one of their stunbreak is 15, but both have a cooldown of 10 seconds. More important:  SWAPING FROM ORANGE TO BLUE (or viceversa) DOESN'T RESET VINDICATOR'S ENERGY. 

   Vindis don't run Charged Mist, so all they have is a legend swap each 10 seconds with grants a reset of 50 energy and 5 energy points earned every second (if energy reaches 0 it takes 4 whole seconds to start that energy regeneration again) to pay tthe use of the skills (and I talked ONLY about the cost of the legend skills). Even swaping legends each 10 seconds and doing nothing for the next 10 seconds you'll only stack 100 energy units to spent in Shiro's 120 or Alliance's 152.

   Resume: a Vindicator can't rotate their whole legend skills every 10 seconds and if tries not only will deplete his energy pool entirely but also be unable to use any weapon skills.

   According to Terrorhuz Vindicator has always evades, blocks, stunbreaks and protection available; I wonder how it could afford such energy costs...

There are 2 possible explanations.

The first would be -but that's wild!- that a revenant won't use all of their utilities one after the other, just like a guardian will not drop all 3 of their virtues all at once, and a thief won't spam pistol whip six times in a row. It's wild, I know, but some people tend to use their skills only when they need it, and with half decent energy management a vindicator will be able to cycle through several defensive skills in a row.

If that's not the case I guess there's only one reason left to explain why I routinely see vindicators holding 2v1 (and surviving 3v1 if they're decent). It could be, and I'm just spitballing, that revenant is a class favoured by the best players, and the best players tend to win. That could be it.

Edited July 15, 2022 by Terrorhuz.4695

[Sahne.6950]

^SAVAGE

[Hotride.2187]

43 minutes ago, Terrorhuz.4695 said:

If that's not the case I guess there's only one reason left to explain why I routinely see vindicators holding 2v1 (and surviving 3v1 if they're decent).

It wouldn't hurt if they have no point capture contribution during a dodge. The animation takes forever and they are "in the circle" all the time... On top of you having to dodge the landing to not take a massive hit.

It'd still be annoying to fight but at least there'd be that...

Ofc better yet nerf the sustain and buff the dmg, so its not the most embarrassing version of rev out there...

Edited July 15, 2022 by Hotride.2187

[SoulBlaze.3059]

1 hour ago, Terrorhuz.4695 said:

There are 2 possible explanations.

The first would be -but that's wild!- that a revenant won't use all of their utilities one after the other, just like a guardian will not drop all 3 of their virtues all at once, and a thief won't spam pistol whip six times in a row. It's wild, I know, but some people tend to use their skills only when they need it, and with half decent energy management a vindicator will be able to cycle through several defensive skills in a row.

If that's not the case I guess there's only one reason left to explain why I routinely see vindicators holding 2v1 (and surviving 3v1 if they're decent). It could be, and I'm just spitballing, that revenant is a class favoured by the best players, and the best players tend to win. That could be it.

With the current meta you are in fact forced to use most of your utility back to back if not swapping legend just to get an extra stunbreak. Most people use stun spam builds where they have rapidly reapeatable skills, or just multiple skills that lock you in place, knock you down, or push you back. Revenants are at a loss because they dont have that option and rely on pure damage and the sustain they have to continue to do damage. Lets be real, the sustain on elementalist is debatably worse, thinking of the stun on hit shield, and the invincibility from the new spec that allows for a huge CD reset, not to mention the insane condi damage that they can proc if you happen to try to hit them after using the shield. Revenant is not in a bad place, it is mediocre in all ways, but requires some thought to play, and allows for more skilled play as it is not limited to one aspect. Lets not even start on engineer right now in pvp, to be real, the pvp scene is terribly unbalanced, and revenant is far from the worst of the problems, especially taking stun spam into account.

[Sahne.6950]

27 minutes ago, SoulBlaze.3059 said:

With the current meta you are in fact forced to use most of your utility back to back if not swapping legend just to get an extra stunbreak. Most people use stun spam builds where they have rapidly reapeatable skills, or just multiple skills that lock you in place, knock you down, or push you back. Revenants are at a loss because they dont have that option and rely on pure damage and the sustain they have to continue to do damage. Lets be real, the sustain on elementalist is debatably worse, thinking of the stun on hit shield, and the invincibility from the new spec that allows for a huge CD reset, not to mention the insane condi damage that they can proc if you happen to try to hit them after using the shield. Revenant is not in a bad place, it is mediocre in all ways, but requires some thought to play, and allows for more skilled play as it is not limited to one aspect. Lets not even start on engineer right now in pvp, to be real, the pvp scene is terribly unbalanced, and revenant is far from the worst of the problems, especially taking stun spam into account.

may i kindly ask you what elo you are talking about'? In what world do Revenants have to permantly burn they stunbreaks because they are stunned forever? From my experience even landing a single CC against a good Vindi is hard, because they keep chaining evade and blockframes.... What are those "stun spam builds" most people run...? What is going on... im having a completly diffrent experience over here in plat...

my experience: you land a CC on vindi -> uses riposting shadows-> he created distance and left any possible burst/cc combo 600 units behind him -> goes into the dodg/staffevades/dodge combo and is at 100% health again...

sounds like someone not knowing what to evade and what not and then just proceeds to facetank someones combo and then goes like: "CC OVERPOWERED HURRDURRR".

people complaining about CC in 2022... what a world do we even live in?  Back in my days CC KITTEN HURT! nowadays a warrior charges at you and hits you for a whooping 7 damage and nothing happens cuz you are sitting nice and comfy on 3 stacks of stabi...

Edited July 15, 2022 by Sahne.6950

[SoulBlaze.3059]

4 minutes ago, Sahne.6950 said:

may i kindly ask you what elo you are talking about'? In what world do Revenants have to permantly brun stunbreak nonstop because they are stunned forever? From my experience is pretty tough to even land even a single CC against a good Vindi, becuase they keep chaining evade and blockframes.... What are those "stun spam builds" most people run...? What is going on... im having a completly diffrent experience over here in plat...

sounds like someone not knowing what to evade and what not and then just proceeds to facetank someones combo and then goes like: "CC OVERPOWERED HURRDURRR".

I am equally curious what build the revenants you see are using that allows them to chain evade and block at all times. That timing is unreal and sounds kinda like somone not knowing when to use the appropriate skills as the windows are fairly consistent.

[Sahne.6950]

22 minutes ago, SoulBlaze.3059 said:

I am equally curious what build the revenants you see are using that allows them to chain evade and block at all times. That timing is unreal and sounds kinda like somone not knowing when to use the appropriate skills as the windows are fairly consistent.

Your right, they cant chain evades....... because they have to hit all their utilityskills back to back and wast all their energy..../s  ... i guess we are playing diffrent games.

i never said they chain evades and blockframes AT ALL TIMES. But a good vindi will know from your movement and the Skills that you could have ready when your about to go for a burst or combo and will proceed to do his little "evadeframe dance".

Your right, there is a few frames between the evades, where hitting him is possible, and thats exactly what your gonna do. your gonna try and waste your important CCskills into the window of 10 frames where he is actually vulnerable.... you missed 2 CCs but the third one hit!  YEAH, NOW HES DEAD FOR SURE! /s  (please dont try this at home! do not waste your CC When he is doing his Evadedance...)

OH NOOO!!! WHAT IS THIS!?    *uses riposting Shadows*    wait? i thought all revenants hammer their utilitys nonstop and dont have energy!? WHAAAT?

believe it or not... a good Bunkicator can literally hold a node 1v2 for extended ammounts of time, because... and now listen closely.... They manage their energy wisely and dont waste a tiny bit of it.

Edited July 15, 2022 by Sahne.6950

[SoulBlaze.3059]

18 minutes ago, Sahne.6950 said:

Your right, they cant chain evades....... because they have to hit all their utilityskills back to back and wast all their energy..../s  ... i guess we are playing diffrent games.

i never said they chain evades and blockframes AT ALL TIMES. But a good vindi will know from your movement and the Skills that you could have ready when your about to go for a burst or combo and will proceed to do his little "evadeframe dance".

Your right, there is a few frames between the evades, where hitting him is possible, and thats exactly what your gonna do. your gonna try and waste your important CCskills into the window of 10 frames where he is actually vulnerable.... you missed 2 CCs but the third one hit!  YEAH, NOW HES DEAD FOR SURE! /s  (please dont try this at home! do not waste your CC When he is doing his Evadedance...)

OH NOOO!!! WHAT IS THIS!?    *uses riposting Shadows*    wait? i thought all revenants hammer their utilitys nonstop and dont have energy!? WHAAAT?

good use of the edit post tool.

[Sahne.6950]

1 minute ago, SoulBlaze.3059 said:

good use of the edit post tool.

yeah thanks had no time to answer fully but also didnt want to let you wait. Am at work and they needed me for a few seconds 😄

^here is the full post ❤️

Edited July 15, 2022 by Sahne.6950

[Ragnar.4257]

Pretty wild that there are people here actually arguing that the unquestionably best bunker in years, since the days of water-weaver and bunker-scrapper, actually doesn't have good sustain and is super easy to kill.

Edited July 15, 2022 by Ragnar.4257

[Obtena.7952]

30 minutes ago, Ragnar.4257 said:

Pretty wild that there are people here actually arguing that the unquestionably best bunker in years, since the days of water-weaver and bunker-scrapper, actually doesn't have good sustain and is super easy to kill.

Well, this IS the age of mis-information right? If people say Vind is bad ... somehow that just makes it true. 

The fact is that if we are seeing a resurgence of Vind in competitive modes, it's not because some randoscrubs think it's 'cool'. There is a reason, even if people have convinced themselves it's trash and written a narrative around that. 

 

Edited July 15, 2022 by Obtena.7952

[phokus.8934]

1 hour ago, Obtena.7952 said:

Well, this IS the age of mis-information right? If people say Vind is bad ... somehow that just makes it true. 

The fact is that if we are seeing a resurgence of Vind in competitive modes, it's not because some randoscrubs think it's 'cool'. There is a reason, even if people have convinced themselves it's trash and written a narrative around that. 

 

You don't even PvP, Mark.  You literally know nothing about this mode.