Dragon's End meta and map instance mechanics

[Tanek.5983]

I have been trying to run the Dragon's End meta for the past couple of days and noticed something interesting and confusing.

The map would get to "high" preparation in all areas and shortly after that there would be a low population alert. More players would then leave the map and things would continue to snowball. By the time the battle part of the meta started, we were either on an empty map with full prep, or had moved to a new map with low prep. Neither of these are helpful if you want a successful meta.

I can't think of another time in the game where this seemed to be as big an issue. I suspect it is because the preparation stage of the event is long enough that players leave rather than hang around running more events while waiting for the battle to start. Whatever the case, the way map instances work seems to actively harm the chances of success. This can proabbly be mitigated by having commanders on the map directing things, or a guild running the event, but especially on weekdays this is not the case much of the time.

Other than the LFG panel that I see few players using regularly, are there other tools we have in game to help draw everyone into the most advantageous map for the meta? If not, I'd suggest we either need sone, or the map instancing of Dragon's End needs to change to accomodate a 2-hour event.

[Esquilax.3491]

There a practice going around of filling a group before the Meta starts via discord and guild, then grabbing the remainder from LFG. While they do this they farm Imperial favours in DE so their time isn't wasted. They are encouraged not to speak in map chat as they don't want randoms to know they are prepping a meta run.

 

When they have 50 in the squad they all leave the map and go to Echvoald or Arborstone, then simultaneously re-enter. The influx of 50 players at once will typically force the megaserver system to spawn at least one new map, which they can then taxi the full squad into. This is done so everyone in the squad can get in, and aren't locked out by some rando fishing or doing story/map completion.

 

What you're seeing is probably the result of this.

 

Personally I don't know what to make of this. On one hand it's only fair to allow them to get all 50 people into the map. On the other hand it ruins the "dynamic open world boss" structure that Anet intended.

 

It's a result partially of the map capacity / shard system and the fact that this system can be gamed like this, but more so of the fact that this event was vastly overtuned at launch and even though it's since been nerfed to be much more forgiving, it is extremely punishing to fail given the time investment required (two hours down the drainpipe) and people rightly don't want to risk it by bringing random open world longbow 1 rangers.

[Razadune.9260]

4 hours ago, Esquilax.3491 said:

 and people rightly don't want to risk it by bringing random open world longbow 1 rangers.

     

Except getting a bunch of randoms together through Discord isn't any better than getting a bunch of randoms together that were already playing the map. What do you do if someone is underperforming, kick them so they're replaced with a random anyway? They don't have any control over who's on the map and can't do anything about people who aren't doing what they'd like, so all it does is insert a barrier into the game to try and exclude people that they can't control in the first place.    

     

It's bad for the game, and judging by the success rate I've seen trying the meta it doesn't even help with beating the fight anyway.   

     

 

[LONGA.1652]

Running DE meta is like doing customer service job thats why so few people Pull an LFG. People already get the mechanics down but they are afraid of getting left behind and waste 1 hour .

[Tanek.5983]

48 minutes ago, LONGA.1652 said:

Running DE meta is like doing customer service job thats why so few people Pull an LFG. People already get the mechanics down but they are afraid of getting left behind and waste 1 hour .

I really like the idea of the meta, but yeah, it seems like it is very easy to have a few people derail the chance at success after putting in an hour or more of work. I understand why some players would hesitate to try.

[Rokeb.3815]

On 7/19/2022 at 4:55 PM, Esquilax.3491 said:

Personally I don't know what to make of this. On one hand it's only fair to allow them to get all 50 people into the map. On the other hand it ruins the "dynamic open world boss" structure that Anet intended.

 

It's a result partially of the map capacity / shard system and the fact that this system can be gamed like this, but more so of the fact that this event was vastly overtuned at launch and even though it's since been nerfed to be much more forgiving, it is extremely punishing to fail given the time investment required (two hours down the drainpipe) and people rightly don't want to risk it by bringing random open world longbow 1 rangers.

I think the biggest problem is tuning the event to require ALL the people on the map to participate. That was always going to create problems.  The Meta is a great idea, but poorly executed.  If it had been tuned as a based to assume say, 30 out of the maps 50 people and then scaled up IF more people participated (capping at 50 obviously) then you wouldn't have this issue.

 

 

[Wintermute.5408]

On 7/19/2022 at 11:55 PM, Esquilax.3491 said:

There a practice going around of filling a group before the Meta starts via discord and guild, then grabbing the remainder from LFG. While they do this they farm Imperial favours in DE so their time isn't wasted. They are encouraged not to speak in map chat as they don't want randoms to know they are prepping a meta run.

Amazing game design by anet to provoke this. This is literally the first case in game history where I can recall players hiding from each other, and having clash of interests with folks just exploring -_-

[Killthehealersffs.8940]

1 hour ago, Wintermute.5408 said:

Amazing game design by anet to provoke this. This is literally the first case in game history where I can recall players hiding from each other, and having clash of interests with folks just exploring -_-

The good part , just like raiders wanted , a "kind of community was created".

Lets call them "Ninja Raider" and their mission is infiltration behind enemy lines

(some1 que Knight Rider intro song plz)

 

(btw you dont have to create the most-mechanic mindblowing instance 100% oof the time . Just create a "spectecle" fight (Mario Galaxy or  Theater in Kharazan-WoW) or a Sus guy that does voice over , being jerk/funny , but give you instructions . Dont overload the box-me-daddy)

Edited July 26, 2022 by Killthehealersffs.8940

[Shadowmoon.7986]

Soo woo really need a world boss spawner like teq, tt or karka queen or an instanced version like tm or ds. This would allow guilds mor control on whos on the map, and remove the need to do weird shenanigans to get somewhat control.

[Xerxez.7361]

2 hours ago, Wintermute.5408 said:

Amazing game design by anet to provoke this. This is literally the first case in game history where I can recall players hiding from each other, and having clash of interests with folks just exploring -_-

 

I think you forgot Dragon Stand, Tangled Drpths, Auric Basin, and Verdant Brink Metas have all employed the same tactic before. They aren't employing a new tactic, they are employing a tactic that already existed and got results.

Edited July 26, 2022 by Xerxez.7361

[Wintermute.5408]

26 minutes ago, Xerxez.7361 said:

 

I think you forgot Dragon Stand, Tangled Drpths, Auric Basin, and Verdant Brink Metas have all employed the same tactic before. They aren't employing a new tactic, they are employing a tactic that already existed and got results.

I've played them pre-nerfs, and I honestly don't remember them being that bad. Maybe Dragon's stand. i recall all of them had a decent enough amount of loot to gather even if meta failed.

[Tanek.5983]

10 minutes ago, Wintermute.5408 said:

I've played them pre-nerfs, and I honestly don't remember them being that bad. Maybe Dragon's stand. i recall all of them had a decent enough amount of loot to gather even if meta failed.

I don't remember them being quite like this either. An argument could be made that the population wanting to run the zone meta content was less spread out at the time, though, so that might be a factor. Don't know.

What I do know is, things are starting to look like I'll need to have lucky timing or make plans with a guild that runs the meta if I want to get through it any time soon. 🙂

[Ashen.2907]

Ive played this meta a few times and have only seen it fail once (less than 10% health). Many of the players lay there dead for much of the fight and then complained about the failure, blamed the encounter, blamed the commander, blamed everything but themselves for lying there dead for almost the entire fight.

I totally understand why some people might want to control who gets into the group after seeing that failure and its aftermath.

[Tanek.5983]

13 minutes ago, Ashen.2907 said:

Ive played this meta a few times and have only seen it fail once (less than 10% health). Many of the players lay there dead for much of the fight and then complained about the failure, blamed the encounter, blamed the commander, blamed everything but themselves for lying there dead for almost the entire fight.

I totally understand why some people might want to control who gets into the group after seeing that failure and its aftermath.

Given that there is a free waypont specifically for this fight, any defeated players should automatically be sent there. Who has time in all that to rez someone? Downed, sure there is a shot, but if you are gone you are gone.

[Firebeard.1746]

On 7/19/2022 at 1:55 PM, Esquilax.3491 said:

Personally I don't know what to make of this. On one hand it's only fair to allow them to get all 50 people into the map. On the other hand it ruins the "dynamic open world boss" structure that Anet intended.

I disagree with the first part of this, agree with the second. The whole purpose of the OW is to interact with randos, so the moment people feel like they have to have a fully organized group to succeed, it belongs in instanced content. Essentially, the organized group is creating their own instance and populating it without the game's help. And furthermore, I would say a fully orgnaized group doesn't deserve full control over shared infrastructure (maps). I get anet was trying to be epic with this, but so much of this feels wrong. 

[Silent.6137]

23 minutes ago, Ashen.2907 said:

Ive played this meta a few times and have only seen it fail once (less than 10% health). Many of the players lay there dead for much of the fight and then complained about the failure, blamed the encounter, blamed the commander, blamed everything but themselves for lying there dead for almost the entire fight.

I totally understand why some people might want to control who gets into the group after seeing that failure and its aftermath.

It's kinda amazing that five months after release and all the discussions, there's still a sizable number of players who expect to just show up and win the fight. There are many who does the meta regularly, and like you, almost never see any failures. It's probably been four months since I experienced the last fail, and I do it almost daily.

As for the full dead just laying there, you do see them at virtually all metas, even the easiest ones. How often do you see mapchat asking full dead to use waypoints? All commanders, regardless of meta, should emphasize to the squad not to rez any full dead. It takes 3 times as long to rez a full dead (5%/sec) as opposed to just downed (15%/sec). Rezzing a full dead means 2 are out of action for about 21 secs (dead & rezer) and the chances of the rezer being downed as well will be extremely high.

[Silent.6137]

10 minutes ago, Firebeard.1746 said:

And furthermore, I would say a fully orgnaized group doesn't deserve full control over shared infrastructure (maps).

Huh? What does that even mean?

And if I understand correctly, you're suggesting that if a group takes the time to be organized for the higher degree of successes in order not to waste time, they should be penalized? Also, in OW, how would a squad takes full control if you can't kick anyone off the map? No one needs to be on the squad to participate.

[Astralporing.1957]

2 hours ago, Xerxez.7361 said:

 

I think you forgot Dragon Stand, Tangled Drpths, Auric Basin, and Verdant Brink Metas have all employed the same tactic before. They aren't employing a new tactic, they are employing a tactic that already existed and got results.

Nah. Looking for a LFG from another map and jumping there? Sure. Actively hiding from players so they go somewhere else and you have a map for yourself? Not really.

The only case of groups doing the massjump tactics in order to create a new squad i remember ever seeing was on Triple Trouble (and that was mostly due to the desire of having 3 squads fit into the same map).

[Tanek.5983]

20 minutes ago, Silent.6137 said:

It's kinda amazing that five months after release and all the discussions, there's still a sizable number of players who expect to just show up and win the fight. There are many who does the meta regularly, and like you, almost never see any failures. It's probably been four months since I experienced the last fail, and I do it almost daily.

Do you run it starting with a set group? Specific time of day? Most of the times I've been able to get in there, the map works on the preparations and then people either vanish or say they aren't going to help with the fight.

We almost succeeded at one, but I suspect there were not quite enough of us working at it (or we just did not have enough damage). Timed out with a few % to go.

[kharmin.7683]

53 minutes ago, Tanek.5983 said:

Given that there is a free waypont specifically for this fight, any defeated players should automatically be sent there. Who has time in all that to rez someone? Downed, sure there is a shot, but if you are gone you are gone.

Many players don't even WP when downed during world bosses (Golem MkII, Frz Maw for 2 easy examples of nearby WP)

[Tanek.5983]

6 minutes ago, kharmin.7683 said:

Many players don't even WP when downed during world bosses (Golem MkII, Frz Maw for 2 easy examples of nearby WP)

True. But even if they could possibly have an excuse in those cases (cost of rez (yeah, isn't much, but maybe they die constantly 😛), run back, etc), those excuses would not be valid here. It takes what, a second or two to rez and be flung back to the fight? Having a way to get right back to the fight when you die is one of the good design choices for this battle.

Edited July 26, 2022 by Tanek.5983

[Firebeard.1746]

1 hour ago, Silent.6137 said:

Huh? What does that even mean?

And if I understand correctly, you're suggesting that if a group takes the time to be organized for the higher degree of successes in order not to waste time, they should be penalized? Also, in OW, how would a squad takes full control if you can't kick anyone off the map? No one needs to be on the squad to participate.

Because the whole point of the OW is random player interaction, reserving an instance entirely for your squad defeats that purpose, so when that happens, the content might as well be organized instanced content. And even if you have a comm, and your players zone in with you, I still think that the map should have randos that are outside your group to at least give the potential of interaction between your guild and new people. 

[Ashen.2907]

6 hours ago, Silent.6137 said:

It's kinda amazing that five months after release and all the discussions, there's still a sizable number of players who expect to just show up and win the fight. There are many who does the meta regularly, and like you, almost never see any failures. It's probably been four months since I experienced the last fail, and I do it almost daily.

As for the full dead just laying there, you do see them at virtually all metas, even the easiest ones. How often do you see mapchat asking full dead to use waypoints? All commanders, regardless of meta, should emphasize to the squad not to rez any full dead. It takes 3 times as long to rez a full dead (5%/sec) as opposed to just downed (15%/sec). Rezzing a full dead means 2 are out of action for about 21 secs (dead & rezer) and the chances of the rezer being downed as well will be extremely high.

Exactly.

I dont mind failure. Played too many sports (and chess clubs) where losing is always a very distinct possibility to get hung up on a loss. "We'll get 'em next time guys." What I do mind is losing because members of my team didnt do their best, or do anything at all. I wouldnt ask for people to be Snow Crows experts, but not being willing to even autoattack is something else entirely. And then for those who threw in the towel, who caused the failure, to be the loudest complainers is ludicrous. 

Edited July 27, 2022 by Ashen.2907

[SlayerXX.7138]

 

34 minutes ago, Firebeard.1746 said:

Because the whole point of the OW is random player interaction, reserving an instance entirely for your squad defeats that purpose, so when that happens, the content might as well be organized instanced content.

On 7/20/2022 at 3:33 AM, tclark.8956 said:

Except getting a bunch of randoms together through Discord isn't any better than getting a bunch of randoms together that were already playing the map.

Little reminder GW2 is a game with a lot of skill, knowledge expression. On top of the normal distribution from effort that player are willing to give.

People who are willing to join a discord have a high probability to also look builds up. Knowing and/or providing boons. I gonna talk about dps because it is the easiest to quantify, but the same applies for buff provider, rezz and defiance Damage. One random who is willing to go to discord will probably to double the dps then a random average OW player. The median Player does double what the bottom 25% percentile does. And the top 25% does double what the median does. So depending how you select these "random" players, there will be massive differences.

If for example 10 top 25% leave the map after people almost fail the essence gathering phase and get replaced with bottom 25%. Its like 20 people left and got replaced by 5. That is normally not a problem because 95% of metas are Childs play.

Depending how you sample your "random" people, they can be worth 4 times as much. Like you see people on platform not having a food buff, not clicking one of the ascended feast that got placed. While on virtuoso can hit one of the in-between champions so hard multiple people have to back off because otherwise other platforms wouldn't catch up.

One "random" group of 20 people could be way more powerful then another group of 50 "random" people. The meta wouldn't be hard with a truly active random map of average player. But for multiple reason that doesn't happen to often.

[Xerxez.7361]

4 hours ago, Wintermute.5408 said:

I've played them pre-nerfs, and I honestly don't remember them being that bad. Maybe Dragon's stand. i recall all of them had a decent enough amount of loot to gather even if meta failed.

 

They definitely weren't as bad, but I'm just saying the practice isn't new of hiding from players. It's just a more public practice than it used to be. I ran with one group that made sure no one else was in their Dragon Stand Instance before starting the meta around 2 years ago.