Banners: August 2nd

[Lan Deathrider.5910]

August 2 Balance Update Preview - Professions - Guild Wars 2 Forums

Warrior

We badly missed the mark with banner changes in the June update. We've gone back to the drawing board to be bolder with changes, add more powerful utility, and make banners easier to use. Each banner will now do its most powerful effects immediately on use and have a much shorter base cooldown of 30 seconds.

To address situations where it felt like the Warrior needed to continually adjust the positions of their banners, pulsing boons are now granted in an increased duration per pulse, but over a shorter amount of time. It will no longer be necessary to stand around the banner for its full duration to upkeep banner boons - duration will stack up more quickly. The reduced cooldowns allow warriors the use of their powerful on-drop effects frequently. The radius and duration of banners has been reduced to better reflect this more focused role. The previous ability for banners to grant quickness to allies has been moved to the Doubled Standards trait.

General banner skill changes:

• Recharge reduced from 60s to 30s (except Battle Standard)
• Animation changed; cast time reduced by 0.2s (except Battle Standard)
• Light combo field radius reduced from 600 to 360. Combo field duration reduced to from 5s to 3s.
• Pulsing boon radius reduced to 360.
• Once dropped, banners last for 15 seconds, and can no longer be picked up.
• Banners no longer grant quickness on drop by default (except for Banner of Tactics in PvE only).
• Doubled Standards: This trait now grants quickness on banner drop, in addition to its other effects. Clarified in description that boon duration increase only applies to the pulsing boons, and not any other boons granted on the initial banner drop.

All banner skills (except for Battle Standard) have been reworked. They now grant different effects when dropped, depending on the banner:[CC1] [JD2] 

• Banner of Defense: Grants barrier and aegis to allies.
• Banner of Tactics: Applies stability and super speed (and quickness in PvE only) to allies.
• Banner of Discipline: Damages and applies bleeding and cripple. This skill no longer creates a light combo field, but acts as a blast finisher instead.
• Banner of Strength: Damages and dazes enemies. This skill no longer creates a light combo field, but acts as a blast finisher instead.
• Battle Standard: Damage multiplier has been increased from 1.5 to 4.0 in PvE only. This skill no longer creates a light combo field, but acts as a blast finisher instead.

Pulsing boons have changed to the following:

• Banner of Defense: Regen (4s)
• Banner of Tactics: Resistance (2s)
• Banner of Discipline: Fury (4s)
• Banner of Strength: Might (10s, two stacks)
• Battle Standard: Fury (6s), Swiftness (12s), Might (12s, two stacks)
  
   

My commentary: So, no facet style banners or bundles, but a much reduced duration, CD, and cast times are nice. There is a mixture of on summon effects that we've discussed previously, so they definitely read through our discussions on the matter. TBH the quick turn around made bundles/facets not possible development wise.

• I like Defense, but I think they missed the mark with it not being an AoE stunbreak.
• Superspeed on Tactics is nice, as is the stability.
• Discipline with Leg Specialist will be great, I hope the damage is on the higher end, but I bet CMC did what he does best.
• Strength will be great with No Escape. It will also be a ranged core interrupt. I can see some troll builds using Strength and Discipline banners in WvW already. Like with Discipline I hope the damage is higher, but we'll see what CMC lets us get to use, the pair being blast finishers is also very nice.
• Battle Standard getting a damage boost in PvE is weird...
• The might stacks on Battle Standard and Strength are still too low, 3 stacks on each would be right. The durations on them all got buffed to reasonable durations per pulse which is nice.
• 15s duration/30s CD on the banners though so none of it can be perma upkept, but they've shifted the value to the summon rather than the pulses which if we can't have facet style banners or banner bundles I suppose is the next best thing.

I give it a 7/10 on preview.
For 10/10 I would like to see the following additions:

• Banner of Defense becomes a self stunbreak, breaks stuns for allies in the summon location.
• Banners of Strength and Discipline should have at least 1.0 coefficients in WvW/PvP, 2.0 in PvE (remember these would use the unequipped weapon strength). Dazes have been allowed to still do damage in competitive, so I expect the WvW/PvP Banner of Strength to still do damage.
• Banner of Strength and Battle Standard should have 3 stacks of might per pulse.
• Banner of Discipline should have several stacks of bleed, not just one.
• Quickness duration should at least be 3s, preferably 5s, with how they are reworking the skills.

Overall, I think it is a solid foundation to build off of and has promise if the numbers aren't over nerfed by CMC in competitive. In PvE it depends on the barrier amount and the quickness duration, if that is borked then they have a problem still.

 

[Grand Marshal.4098]

So back to immobile banners? 

[Grand Marshal.4098]

That means banners will still be kitten outside of precious PvE. 

Wonderful stuff anet. 

[Lan Deathrider.5910]

Just now, Grand Marshal.4098 said:

So back to immobile banners? 

I think it is more of a shift. You don't need to stay in their radius as much and the on summon effects are frontloaded. That and with the reduced CD, them being immobile is far less of an issue.

[Downstate.4697]

The banners could be decent for wvw too. My thing is they are pretty much wells at this point.

[Lan Deathrider.5910]

Just now, Grand Marshal.4098 said:

That means banners will still be kitten outside of precious PvE. 

Wonderful stuff anet. 

Nah, I can see lots of value in Strength and Discipline banners in zergs with certain traits so long as CMC doesn't over nerf the damages. Keep in mind they're also reducing the cast times. Barrier and Aegis is also nice on the utility bar. Stability and Superspeed is also very nice on the utility bar.

[Grand Marshal.4098]

2 minutes ago, Lan Deathrider.5910 said:

I think it is more of a shift. You don't need to stay in their radius as much and the on summon effects are frontloaded. That and with the reduced CD, them being immobile is far less of an issue.

Nah, warrior can't compete for other reaaons that anet will always fail to address. 

Ill applaud them once I see a revitalized warrior thats not some 'niche' build. 

[Lan Deathrider.5910]

1 minute ago, FrownyClown.8402 said:

The banners could be decent for wvw too. My thing is they are pretty much wells at this point.

Only on the pulses. The initial summons are pretty hefty, just with lingering after effects.

[Lan Deathrider.5910]

Just now, Grand Marshal.4098 said:

Nah, warrior can't compete for other reaaons that anet will always fail to address. 

Ill applaud them once I see a revitalized warrior thats not some 'niche' build. 

Yeah there is still more work to do. They've added another balance patch on the 23rd, so it seems their eyes are opening to the state of the game.

[Dadnir.5038]

Pretty long lasting boon-wells with strong initial effect. It look pretty good to me.

Edit: Banner of discipline that was one of the most used banner feel like it's the one that got it worse here. A bleeding effect on a 30s CD, I must say that I barfed a laugh.

Edited July 27, 2022 by Dadnir.5038

[Noz.4650]

They're definitely trying to push support spellbreaker in WvW and PvP. The issue in WvW is Break Enchantments + Balanced Stance is non-negotiable so slotting in more than 1 banner will feel very bad. The damage banners + leg specialist/no escape synergy is cool but tactics banner completely overshadows the other banners so I think you still run tactics even on dps spb.

Edited July 28, 2022 by Noz.4650

[Grand Marshal.4098]

Just now, Noz.4650 said:

They're definitely trying to push support spellbreaker in WvW and PvP. The issue in WvW is Break Enchantments + 1 stunbreak is non-negotiable so slotting in more than 1 banner will feel very bad unless one of those banners is a stunbreak. The damage banners + leg specialist/no escape synergy is cool but you run into the same issue where dps spellbreaker without 2 stunbreaks limits you in terms of safely enabling your offense. I think tactics banner will see play but others are too hard to slot in in WvW and PvP.

Facet banners would change that, but ofc anet decides to give us near well-like abilities that are like bad gyros. 

What good is it to reduce the radius so much and give 1 stack of aegis kek? 

Just throw banner and walk away! 

So basically not a support cause Support SpB cant function without shouts and Core will not be played. 

Aha

[Lan Deathrider.5910]

2 minutes ago, Noz.4650 said:

They're definitely trying to push support spellbreaker in WvW and PvP. The issue in WvW is Break Enchantments + 1 stunbreak is non-negotiable so slotting in more than 1 banner will feel very bad unless one of those banners is a stunbreak. The damage banners + leg specialist/no escape synergy is cool but you run into the same issue where dps spellbreaker without 2 stunbreaks limits you in terms of safely enabling your offense. I think tactics banner will see play but others are too hard to slot in in WvW and PvP.

Yeah, Defense Banner really should be a Stunbreak. That or Tactics really.

For zerg play you could get away from the need for two stunbreaks if you are using those banners from the backline prior to a push and have stability from your subgroup. If they ever reduce the CD on Brave Stride in competitive you may get away from needing the extra stunbreak.

[anbujackson.9564]

The massive buffs are needed.

What I do not understand is why there is still no protection? I mean the barrier is kind of meh. Aegis is.. ok? I mean it depends on the duration but I prefer protection instead.

They reverted back to blast finishers which is funny. Just drop those light fields alltogether.

Not sure about the amount you need to spam. 3 banners every 24 seconds is kind of a bit, better for repositioning I guess.

Quickness duration remains to be seen. Can maybe play with banners and PS for might now. Or drop tactics. But it wasnt their intent to give quickness only with banners So i doubt it.

[Noz.4650]

2 minutes ago, Grand Marshal.4098 said:

Facet banners would change that, but ofc anet decides to give us near well-like abilities that are like bad gyros. 

What good is it to reduce the radius so much and give 1 stack of aegis kek? 

Just throw banner and walk away! 

So basically not a support cause Support SpB cant function without shouts and Core will not be played. 

Aha

The other issue I have with the "drop it and forget it" design is tactics gives superspeed and pulses resistance, but in WvW you use superspeed for when your squad is making movements so you either get no value out of the resistance if you're moving or no value out of the superspeed if you're staying in one spot.

[oscuro.9720]

I pretty much agree with your assessment. Solid all around. 7/10 feels like the right rating. They did a good job with these changes. 

[Za Shaloc.3908]

Hopefully Banner of Tactics gives respectable stab duration/stacks. Needs to be strong enough to be worth giving up a util slot for in WvW.
Wondering how much damage Banner of Discipline will do. Would be funny to boop people for big numbers. Death by flagpole.

[oscuro.9720]

Just now, Za Shaloc.3908 said:

Hopefully Banner of Tactics gives respectable stab duration/stacks. Needs to be strong enough to be worth giving up a util slot for in WvW.
Wondering how much damage Banner of Discipline will do. Would be funny to boop people for big numbers. Death by flagpole.

Flagpoling people to death is now one of my goals 😂 

[Azure The Heartless.3261]

keep in mind that resistance banners essentially gives you a zone to trade with blindspam thieves, and blindspam thieves usually cant afford to trade.

tentatively interested in the rework. withholding optimism until I play with it. 

22 minutes ago, Lan Deathrider.5910 said:

Yeah there is still more work to do. They've added another balance patch on the 23rd, so it seems their eyes are opening to the state of the game.

Here's hoping.

Edited July 27, 2022 by Azure The Heartless.3261

[Grand Marshal.4098]

4 minutes ago, Azure The Heartless.3261 said:

keep in mind that resistance banners essentially gives you a zone to trade with blindspam thieves, and blindspam thieves usually cant afford to trade.

tentatively interested in the rework. withholding optimism until I play with it. 

Here's hoping.

Berserker's stance is calling. Might as well trait it with last stand.

On the topic of supporting, I doubt we will see support warrior with only 1 banner being a meaningful support option. And no matter the build in wvw, SpB cannot drop Break Enchantments.

Balanced options right?

Drop strips for support!

A thing that is alien to other classes.

[Obtena.7952]

Weird to see no concern from people about the quickness duration on Double Standards ... literally the reason Anet gutted Banners in the first place and the only piece of info we didn't get. 

Aside from that ... looks like a massive improvement from what we currently have BUT ... that's not really the relevant comparison. The question is if it's better than what we had prior to June patch because THAT should be the standard we should be comparing these changes.

From that perspective, I don't see anything here that would allow a Warrior to compete for a support position in a PVE team .... 

Edited July 27, 2022 by Obtena.7952

[josh.3847]

6 minutes ago, Obtena.7952 said:

Weird to see no concern from people about the quickness duration on Double Standards ... literally the reason Anet gutted Banners in the first place and the only piece of info we didn't get. 

Aside from that ... looks like a massive improvement from what we currently have BUT ... that's not really the relevant comparison. The question is if it's better than what we had prior to June patch because THAT should be the standard we should be comparing these changes.

From that perspective, I don't see anything here that would allow a Warrior to compete for a support position in a PVE team .... 

They didn’t adjust any damage so I’m curious myself. If you have to run tactics and discipline for 100% uptime I hope you don’t need any concentration at all otherwise it will probably be worse damage than the current quick chrono.

[Obtena.7952]

Just now, josh.3847 said:

They didn’t adjust any damage so I’m curious myself. If you have to run tactics and discipline for 100% uptime I hope you don’t need any concentration at all otherwise it will probably be worse damage than the current quick chrono.

Well, I have no doubt there ... we will be running Diviners to get as much uptime as possible. The question is if you can get 100% with banners alone, a combo of banners, WH and Martial Cadence or ... worst case, not at all. 

[Azure The Heartless.3261]

26 minutes ago, Obtena.7952 said:

From that perspective, I don't see anything here that would allow a Warrior to compete for a support position in a PVE team .... 

 

This is correct, but a large portion of us weren't buying the "support warrior angle" from the start. It has to compete with specs that are devoted to support, I'm not surprised. That being said that is the whole reason they reworked banners to begin with. being concerned is an understatement at this point. 

Quote

 not at all. 

It's going to take more than banners to fill that support role in a way that warrants consideration over like... firebrand

Edited July 27, 2022 by Azure The Heartless.3261

[Lonecap.4105]

I’m hype for this a bit tbh. This is good.