When someone doesn't understand what elitist and casual are

[Cyninja.2954]

14 hours ago, IAmNotMatthew.1058 said:

When people say "toxic casual" they are not talking about players who are new and don't know things, they are talking about people who demand to be allowed to join any group even though they don't meet those requirements, demanding rewards from instanced content to be available outside said content and so on.

If you have Mike who is unsure how to navigate the mess that is known as the LFG window and can't read some of the hieroglyps people ASK how to use and read things there people will answer and try to help. Mike is not toxic.

If you have Joe, who is stomping their feet, pounding on their desk demanding rewards from Raids, Strikes, CM Strikes, etc. telling a W5 squad that they must be allowed in the squad, even though they don't meet their requirements people won't be nice in response. Those are the people referred to as "Toxic casuals".

This.

This thread is the perfect example of players not knowing or caring what displeases others. In a way it is a great representation of why and how communication breaks down and sides form. This includes topic creator who himself has his very own definition of "toxic casual" it seems.

"Toxic casual" as used by parts of this games player base never in any way related to new players or players seeking advice or help. The complete opposite in fact. What it did relate to was most often an individuals sense of him being "right" while others were wrong often resulting in toxic exchanges down the road (hence toxic casual, a toxic exchange initiated by a player with a specific approach to the game).

I don't actually fear the steam release on this. There are enough sensible players which would agree with the statement:"don't join the group if you aren't wiling to bring what they are looking for and most definitely: you are not in the right to demand to get taken along".

Edited August 13, 2022 by Cyninja.2954

[Krzysztof.5973]

I do wonder what does OP think of this post 

Was it made by a toxic casual? 🤔

[AliamRationem.5172]

4 hours ago, Krzysztof.5973 said:

I do wonder what does OP think of this post 

Was it made by a toxic casual? 🤔

The top comment is correct: "Top is stuck 1 hour in lfg, bottom is stuck 1 hour in instance."  I'd just go for the group that specifies what roles they require!

[samsar.9152]

21 hours ago, Krzysztof.5973 said:

I do wonder what does OP think of this post 

Was it made by a toxic casual? 🤔

I'm more likely that All strikes All welcome personality. I have done strikes and even raids successfully with "All welcome" chill groups. 🙂 Worst thing is that role  and equipment entry happens in WvW too. The only result was I kinda lost my interests to do WvW after I got my Conflux legendary ring. "Gatekeeping" is not good thing in any game mode. Not in pve and not in wvw. 

Edited August 15, 2022 by samsar.9152

[Linken.6345]

28 minutes ago, samsar.9152 said:

I'm more likely that All strikes All welcome personality. I have done strikes and even raids successfully with "All welcome" chill groups. 🙂 Worst thing is that role  and equipment entry happens in WvW too. The only result was I kinda lost my interests to do WvW after I got my Conflux legendary ring. "Gatekeeping" is not good thing in any game mode. Not in pve and not in wvw. 

Yea and it is not gatekept since you were able to do it without those groups right?

[SoftFootpaws.9134]

Let's say you have a child, its just a little baby. The child could grow up to be a strong, reliable adult, but you expect it to just be an adult already, so you don't take care of it. The child survives on its own, the only ways it knows how, and as a result becomes a completely different person than you wanted.

 

They got there without your support, but ended up becoming something you didn't want. This is how casuals complete hard content in this game but remain casuals instead of becoming something better, because they have no choice but to do it their own way, in their own time, instead of the way that others would prefer, as there's no magical stepping stone to go from child to adult as is expected.

 

This is how they become a "toxic casual", and this is the Guild Wars 2 community in 2022.

 

I understand alot of the complaints here, I do, but you're not seeing it from the other side, which is just as toxic. Of course its not your job to take care of newer players, but at the same time this mentality that its always "somebody else's problem" is harmful to the entire community long-term.

 

It starts out small, just one group doing an efficient run here and there, then suddenly the entire LFG is efficient runs, fully EXP, title, KP and so on, while veteran players complain the population is dying, no one wants to do the content anymore and the devs don't want to develop it. The only reason we're having this discussion is because they tried to change that, just a little bit here and there, to try and see if something sticks.

 

Go and try to do T4 CMs on a fresh account without DwD title and no static group. See how long anyone listens to how experienced you are ("this is my alt account, I swear!") or just immediately kicks you. Not even being an adult is enough--you have to have a house and a fancy car too!

 

So it becomes: Force your way in, "fake it until you make it", and so on, because their only other options are to get static groups or make their own group (which lets be honest, experienced players rarely join), and it comes to the point where they'll do anything to just get it done with.

 

But we didn't arrive at this point immediately, it was little bits and pieces over time. That's why I always go out of my way to help other players, even if it means suffering a little myself.

 

Not everyone is lazy like you think they are, they just need a little help "growing up".

Edited August 15, 2022 by Mariyuuna.6508

[Krzysztof.5973]

2 hours ago, Mariyuuna.6508 said:

Go and try to do T4 CMs on a fresh account without DwD title and no static group. See how long anyone listens to how experienced you are ("this is my alt account, I swear!") or just immediately kicks you. Not even being an adult is enough--you have to have a house and a fancy car too!

Thank goodness you can connect your alt accounts on kp.me. 
Do you want to start fresh without experience? Join appropriate groups. You will only get kicked if you force yourself into groups that were not made for you. 

3 hours ago, Mariyuuna.6508 said:

while veteran players complain the population is dying, no one wants to do the content anymore and the devs don't want to develop it.

Yes, It's because players are so toxic and exclusive - this is why we have no new fractals. It's not because it's been 698 days since we got a single fractal cm boss and 1315 days since last fractal that did not even have CM. Let's cope and come up with excuses why population is dying and repeat same set of fractals for 20 years. It's very fun and interactive.  

[Shikaru.7618]

3 hours ago, Mariyuuna.6508 said:

Let's say you have a child, its just a little baby. The child could grow up to be a strong, reliable adult, but you expect it to just be an adult already, so you don't take care of it. The child survives on its own, the only ways it knows how, and as a result becomes a completely different person than you wanted.

 

They got there without your support, but ended up becoming something you didn't want. This is how casuals complete hard content in this game but remain casuals instead of becoming something better, because they have no choice but to do it their own way, in their own time, instead of the way that others would prefer, as there's no magical stepping stone to go from child to adult as is expected.

 

This is how they become a "toxic casual", and this is the Guild Wars 2 community in 2022.

 

I understand alot of the complaints here, I do, but you're not seeing it from the other side, which is just as toxic. Of course its not your job to take care of newer players, but at the same time this mentality that its always "somebody else's problem" is harmful to the entire community long-term.

 

It starts out small, just one group doing an efficient run here and there, then suddenly the entire LFG is efficient runs, fully EXP, title, KP and so on, while veteran players complain the population is dying, no one wants to do the content anymore and the devs don't want to develop it. The only reason we're having this discussion is because they tried to change that, just a little bit here and there, to try and see if something sticks.

 

Go and try to do T4 CMs on a fresh account without DwD title and no static group. See how long anyone listens to how experienced you are ("this is my alt account, I swear!") or just immediately kicks you. Not even being an adult is enough--you have to have a house and a fancy car too!

 

So it becomes: Force your way in, "fake it until you make it", and so on, because their only other options are to get static groups or make their own group (which lets be honest, experienced players rarely join), and it comes to the point where they'll do anything to just get it done with.

 

But we didn't arrive at this point immediately, it was little bits and pieces over time. That's why I always go out of my way to help other players, even if it means suffering a little myself.

 

Not everyone is lazy like you think they are, they just need a little help "growing up".

Except it's not just "somebody elses" problem. There's literally dedicated communities with hundreds of people willing to take these players in called training guilds who are dying to help all new raiders out.

[Killthehealersffs.8940]

2 hours ago, Krzysztof.5973 said:

Yes, It's because players are so toxic and exclusive - this is why we have no new fractals. It's not because it's been 698 days since we got a single fractal cm boss and 1315 days since last fractal that did not even have CM. Let's cope and come up with excuses why population is dying and repeat same set of fractals for 20 years. It's very fun and interactive.  

The said that they will release new Fractals (but didnt read anything about raid ) .

The majority dont have problem with Fractal delay .

The only Fractal population that is dying , is the CM , because they removed "half the rewards -dissaproved by the devs" the 2,7 gold average from Mystic coins (omg noo....)

Edited August 15, 2022 by Killthehealersffs.8940

[AliamRationem.5172]

2 hours ago, Killthehealersffs.8940 said:

The said that they will release new Fractals (but didnt read anything about raid ) .

The majority dont have problem with Fractal delay .

The only Fractal population that is dying , is the CM , because they removed "half the rewards -dissaproved by the devs" the 2,7 gold average from Mystic coins (omg noo....)

That's a bit of a chicken or egg scenario, isn't it?  Maybe more people would care about fractals if ANet invested some resources into them?  1 fractal every 2 years can't really be called supporting the content.  Speaking for myself, I enjoy fractals but I'd enjoy them a lot more if they released new content on a regular schedule the way other MMOs do.

[Senfdieb.3985]

9 hours ago, Mariyuuna.6508 said:

Go and try to do T4 CMs on a fresh account without DwD title and no static group. See how long anyone listens to how experienced you are ("this is my alt account, I swear!") or just immediately kicks you. Not even being an adult is enough--you have to have a house and a fancy car too!

 

 If you only write like "hi dps, this is my alt account, i know the mechs fine" this will probably not work. But if the leader is willing to give you one minute of time at max, if you're experienced you can prove it to them. For example for Dhumm just add some random stuff like "greater soulsplits are at 6:25, 5:05, 3:45, 2:25, 1:05" or some other things like "should i bait shackles starting at 60% by beeing one of the two closest persons towards dhuum beside the tank?"

 

For CMs write something like "ill help ccing the one sorrow at 66 and the two at 33 and i will avoid the guilts that spawn after the cc". "i hope for 99 the renegade knows about staff 5 into special action key".

 

I mean i dont have an alt account to test this but at least for eu i guess youll find groups just fine. Maybe some groups will kick you nevertheless but then i would question if you really wanna play with them.

 

[SoftFootpaws.9134]

The players responding to me completely missed the point.

 

The whole point isn't that you, as a veteran player, can find workarounds, the point is you're not seeing it from the eyes of younger, less experienced players. You're making arguments and excuses, saying how to solve x, y or z, and not putting yourselves in their shoes.

 

You have all of the answers, but none of the questions. That's the whole point, and if you don't get it, nothing I do or say is going to make you get it, because you don't want to get it.

 

The only question I've heard asked in all these years, repeatedly, is "why is my game mode dead/not getting developed/etc" (which applies to everything from raids to PvP). The one question that no one has the answer to, because that would mean rethinking the answers to all the other questions that have been asked over the years. But well, cognitive dissonance is really something. 🙂

 

I helped a group of inexperienced players with a half dozen pulls on Sunqua CM yesterday. Another experienced player joined and helped for a while after asking "Is this a DwD group?" and after they left due to time constraints they PM'ed me saying "Its amasing that you're teaching new players about Fractals. Without people like you, the game mode would be dead."

 

Being the one to give the answers is easy, its being the one to ask the questions that's hard., especially the questions that have answers you probably won't like.

Edited August 15, 2022 by Mariyuuna.6508

[Linken.6345]

1 hour ago, Mariyuuna.6508 said:

The players responding to me completely missed the point.

 

The whole point isn't that you, as a veteran player, can find workarounds, the point is you're not seeing it from the eyes of younger, less experienced players. You're making arguments and excuses, saying how to solve x, y or z, and not putting yourselves in their shoes.

 

You have all of the answers, but none of the questions. That's the whole point, and if you don't get it, nothing I do or say is going to make you get it, because you don't want to get it.

 

The only question I've heard asked in all these years, repeatedly, is "why is my game mode dead/not getting developed/etc" (which applies to everything from raids to PvP). The one question that no one has the answer to, because that would mean rethinking the answers to all the other questions that have been asked over the years. But well, cognitive dissonance is really something. 🙂

 

I helped a group of inexperienced players with a half dozen pulls on Sunqua CM yesterday. Another experienced player joined and helped for a while after asking "Is this a DwD group?" and after they left due to time constraints they PM'ed me saying "Its amasing that you're teaching new players about Fractals. Without people like you, the game mode would be dead."

 

Being the one to give the answers is easy, its being the one to ask the questions that's hard., especially the questions that have answers you probably won't like.

1 question tho what is stoping the newbies from learning on their own like the veterans did?

[Killthehealersffs.8940]

52 minutes ago, Linken.6345 said:

1 question tho what is stoping the newbies from learning on their own like the veterans did?

First of  the veterans , that didnt want an easy mode , because it will pull resources from the raid creation .

And now they hate an auto-lfg , but tell the casuals to start their own group and avoid groups they dont belong (HELLO THIS MECHANICS WILL HELP THEM !)

 

But its ok i guess , we must raid sell items for 8.000 ectos:P

And if people wont do them , then we ask the company to buff further the rewards , to alure them 😛

Edited August 15, 2022 by Killthehealersffs.8940

[mindcircus.1506]

34 minutes ago, Killthehealersffs.8940 said:

First of  the veterans , that didnt want an easy mode , because it will pull resources from the raid creation .

And now they hate an auto-lfg , but tell the casuals to start their own group and avoid groups they dont belong (HELLO THIS MECHANICS WILL HELP THEM !)

 

But its ok i guess , we must raid sell items for 8.000 ectos:P

And if people wont do them , then we ask the company to buff further the rewards , to alure them 😛

None of what you have said here addresses the basic salient question that @Linken.6345 asked.

[Killthehealersffs.8940]

18 minutes ago, mindcircus.1506 said:

None of what you have said here addresses the basic salient question that @Linken.6345 asked.

it did .

If you had an easy mode and an auto-lfg like any other game , then we wouldnt have these conversaions "whats stoping them from learning" .

 

But i guess you wanted money

Use the money and buy teamplates , to save your mode

Edited August 15, 2022 by Killthehealersffs.8940

[Labjax.2465]

Quote

1 question tho what is stoping the newbies from learning on their own like the veterans did?

If you are there when content first came out and everybody is fumbling through it, it's not the same as learning it when others know it and are impatient now. So the main thing that is stopping newbies from learning "like veterans did" is that the circumstances are not the same and cannot be made to be the same. The closest you can get is finding a group of people who are fine with fumbling through the content together and are also completely new to it, every single one, which is gonna be hard at this point through random grouping and also not gonna make a lot of sense to want to seek out.

You might as well ask "what is stopping newbies from learning the game without wiki like the very first players did"? Like what is the point of the wiki then.

Human beings learn things both from other human beings, and in part on their own, and they pass along what they learn. It's a huge part of our existence and we would not have these forums to argue on without it. GW2 would not exist without it. Most of us people talking here would probably not exist without it.

Maybe you should be asking "what is stopping veterans from giving back to their community and nurturing new into veteran like most humans do throughout history?" Some veteran players definitely do give back, no doubt about that. They don't do it so other veteran players can be cliquey though.

At the end of the day, a lot of this boils down to, "Do you want to think short-term, have the most efficient runs you can find at all times at the cost of general confusion, miscommunication, and misunderstanding between players, or do you want to think long-term, have some inefficient runs some of the time, but nurture a playerbase whose overall run rate is more efficient and a larger pool of players?" Training groups help with the long-term, but the formality of them is gonna leave a lot of players out, for one reason or another. Sometimes the most important thing someone needs is just to see the content and play through it a few times. If they still don't get it at all then, they might need more guidance, if they are willing to listen.

But this is something auto-LFGs help with, is just giving people easy opportunities to see the content. Whether they clear it the first time or not, that familiarity is invaluable. You can pore over a wiki page for a boss fight thinking it's super complex and then play it a few times and realize it's a lot simpler in practice than you thought.

As emboldened mode in raids has shown, one of GW2's biggest obstacles in instanced PvE content is basically just intimidation and things that make it less intimidating results in more people doing it and having more success with it.

[Krzysztof.5973]

4 hours ago, Mariyuuna.6508 said:

The whole point isn't that you, as a veteran player, can find workarounds, the point is you're not seeing it from the eyes of younger, less experienced players. You're making arguments and excuses, saying how to solve x, y or z, and not putting yourselves in their shoes.

 

You have all of the answers, but none of the questions. That's the whole point, and if you don't get it, nothing I do or say is going to make you get it, because you don't want to get it.

I could literally write same thing back to you and it would have made a perfect sense. 

You can share with new players a (insert kitten here)ton of resources (like kp.me, builds, guides, training groups) that will put them much closer to the general population in the endgame PvE. 
You are making excuses that new players are in some way deficient and incapable of grasping the knowledge of the above. They have all the help they can get, the problem is reaching out.
If you are going to lock yourself out of the discussion because "you guys just don't understand me lol" instead of responding to actual solutions we presented by responding to you, then sorry but you are the evil you pretend to fight against. 

[Linken.6345]

29 minutes ago, Krzysztof.5973 said:

I could literally write same thing back to you and it would have made a perfect sense. 

You can share with new players a (insert kitten here)ton of resources (like kp.me, builds, guides, training groups) that will put them much closer to the general population in the endgame PvE. 
You are making excuses that new players are in some way deficient and incapable of grasping the knowledge of the above. They have all the help they can get, the problem is reaching out.
If you are going to lock yourself out of the discussion because "you guys just don't understand me lol" instead of responding to actual solutions we presented by responding to you, then sorry but you are the evil you pretend to fight against. 

Exactly I cant belive they guy you replied to complained that people dont have it as hard as the first timers since there is now guides (both writen and video) and build etc all they have to do is look it up.

Then form their groups.

 

[Labjax.2465]

38 minutes ago, Krzysztof.5973 said:

I could literally write same thing back to you and it would have made a perfect sense. 

You can share with new players a (insert kitten here)ton of resources (like kp.me, builds, guides, training groups) that will put them much closer to the general population in the endgame PvE. 
You are making excuses that new players are in some way deficient and incapable of grasping the knowledge of the above. They have all the help they can get, the problem is reaching out.
If you are going to lock yourself out of the discussion because "you guys just don't understand me lol" instead of responding to actual solutions we presented by responding to you, then sorry but you are the evil you pretend to fight against. 

Kinda sounds like you thinking sending someone off to a wiki page or a link to a training group is the same as teaching them and it's not. The idea of teaching people by throwing them at a self-help seminar is a pretty recent thing in history, as far as I'm aware. Usually teaching people means mentoring them as they go.

[Krzysztof.5973]

10 minutes ago, Labjax.2465 said:

Kinda sounds like you thinking sending someone off to a wiki page or a link to a training group is the same as teaching them and it's not. The idea of teaching people by throwing them at a self-help seminar is a pretty recent thing in history, as far as I'm aware. Usually teaching people means mentoring them as they go.

Are we now excluding training groups and other resources from the sphere of "helping new players"? Why did you tell me that? 

[Labjax.2465]

31 minutes ago, Krzysztof.5973 said:

Are we now excluding training groups and other resources from the sphere of "helping new players"? Why did you tell me that? 

Yes, those aren't actually real help. It's only real help if I say it is.

No lol, of course not. What are you even talking about? You say they have all the help they can get and refer to directing people to resources, as if that's the same thing as them actively being helped. I even wrote an anecdote example in this very thread recently about encountering someone who clearly didn't know what they didn't know and helping them through what to do was critical. If I'd told them to wiki "strike missions," who knows if they'd have figured anything out.

If I'm misinterpreting your meaning here, then feel free to tell me what the intended meaning is cause if it's not that, then I don't know what your response to Mari was supposed to mean.

[Cyninja.2954]

There are some very very incorrect misconceptions here and it's frightening to even have to point them out:

 

1. Players new to content or entering content after it was released are more disadvantaged.

 

No they are not. It's insane to believe this. Yes, when looked at on an individual level this can apply depending on how a player approaches this content (and it has nothing to do with them being new to the content in this case). On a macro level this is absolutely incorrect. This believe is based around the absolutely flawed assumption that there is only 2 types of players, those with perfect knowledge and those without. That strait up incorrect. Most of these raids are years old content and over that time period, thousands upon thousands of players were new and had to start raiding at some point and most of those points were neither right when the raid came out, nor last week.

 

2. Progression raiding (aka being the first to solve an encounter) is significantly harder than being the second. We even have a very recent example to this: Harvest Temple CM. The first groups which were working on solving the encounter had a much harder time in actually succeeding and completing it than anyone who follows now. The encounter is still very hard, but anyone going at it now does not have to "solve" anything any longer (as far as encounter progress, individual mechanics which now are known can be solved differently). This applies to ALL content which is new. The argument that somehow players coming to content later are disadvantaged is not logical.

 

3. Raiding and group content requires a constant supply of fresh blood. This counters any and all arguments that the "in-crowd" has no desire to nurture or take new players in. Any player ever in charge of a static, or even in charge of any set amount of people in real life where fluctuations can set in, has experience with this. This applies both to smaller sizes (where raid/static/guild leads are constantly required to acquire new players) as well as an entire sub community for a specific content (which is dependent on developer interaction and fresh content to keep players interested as well as new players move in).

 

So, why do we have these misconceptions and plain false assumptions getting spread? My favorite one being the "oh but you did this early on, so you were lucky that players would take you along".

 

The main reason being: this comes from players with little to no actual experience with the content. At the very least from players who have no experience with how to complete the content. It's most often an outsiders look at something they do not understand or where they believe they know better even though they've never actually done any of what they have preached.

 

The second main reason is:"because players/humans like to put blame everywhere else but themselves". It's far easier to blame others or time or circumstances than figure out why success eludes one (I'm not using blame because there are many very reasonable issues which can hinder a player new to raids of being successful, almost none of which are him being new to the content).

 

Things that actually improve or hinder a players ability to begin raiding (or any type of content which requires a set amount of time to advance in where one is reliant on others):

 

1. Time - it's by far one of the largest factors. How much time you can spend on working towards your goal is of prime significance. It's also something the emboldened buff affects beneficially by reducing time needed to succeed on specific content weekly

 

2. Organization - getting a group of similar minded players together is work, no matter on what skill level. Again the emboldened buff made organizing easier for similar minded players while also benefiting trainers and communities working on training players.

 

3. Social - simply put: if you have connections (overall term in relation to guildies, friends, family, etc. basically people who would be willing to work with you) a ton of things get easier. Being a "loner" will cause issues when approaching such content. The loner approach is great for open world, where no social interaction what so ever is required, but it's a huge reason why players suddenly face issues once they move away from there. This is also where the assumption that new players are disadvantaged falls apart. The amount of players interested in the content usually increases once content has been solved strait up because most players don't want to progression raid.

 

4. Anxiety, Introvert, Extrovert, leader, follower - basically the remaining large issues which differentiate players. Most payers are followers (in fact most humans/people). It's a challenge to take up the up and lead. Being a follower and demanding from others to do things for you will always be more frightening and less successful than leading yourself. There is no solution here besides: know yourself and try to your best ability to work with how you are. I've know very introverted and shy people manage to complete anything they wanted in this game simply because they had guildies and friends who knew about their issues. Be like that, potentially join a guild and be upfront about being shy or quiet. If the people in it are semi decent, that will be absolutely no issue.

 

TL;DR:

This constant "well you had it easier or have it easier now bceause you were first" mentality or assumption needs to end. It's misguided and strait up false given the time frame and amount of players who were "new" over the years only to become veterans themselves. The issues and reasons why players have it "easier" have almost nothing to do with date of entry to any content.

Edited August 16, 2022 by Cyninja.2954

[Yellow Rainbow.6142]

Blame the game not the players except few 🙂

[IAmNotMatthew.1058]

18 hours ago, Labjax.2465 said:

Kinda sounds like you thinking sending someone off to a wiki page or a link to a training group is the same as teaching them and it's not. 

Except said training group will teach them. If you send your son to school the teachers will teach him, right? If I tell someone to join a training group to learn the people in the training groups WILL teach them.
Have you been in an RTI/RA training Raid? What do you think is it like? The Commander sharing a link on Discord, telling people to read it then start? No. They explain the fight, the roles and answer questions.

18 hours ago, Labjax.2465 said:

The idea of teaching people by throwing them at a self-help seminar is a pretty recent thing in history, as far as I'm aware. Usually teaching people means mentoring them as they go.

I'll be blunt here, but it isn't a random Commander's job to teach people. 
This actually kinda ties into my previous point though. RTI, you know, they have multiple kinds of runs. Training runs assume you have NO IDEA about the encounter, so, they explain everything. Kill runs are as their name implies are for more experienced players where they don't explain much, and just focus on the kill. They even have runs where they do multiple wings in one go.

Doesn't that sound like mentoring people as they go?