@anet, if it's busted in pvp it's busted in wvw, no more (pvp only) plz

[RlyOsim.2497]

Title

Edited July 30, 2022 by RlyOsim.2497

[ASP.8093]

That's not really true, though.

The gear in SPvP is different. WvW players get Concentration and Expertise on our gear. We get full tank gear for condi builds and supports. We get Celestial gear, too. We get burst damage sigils, we get a Cleansing sigil that clears a whole little stack of conditions, we get runes with seriously big modifiers for condition duration &c.

The pace of SPvP is different. Compared to SPvP, the scoring cycle in WvW is a lot slower and the gaps between fights are a lot bigger. Things that feel overly "stalemate-y" in SPvP might be fine in WvW because holding a node for 20 more seconds isn't actually super high value in WvW. Being able to "rotate" from fight to fight quickly isn't really a thing (instead, people use their mobility mainly to chase/escape). It's much quicker to flip any undefended SPvP objective than it is to take a camp or a tower.

The stakes in SPvP are different. There's no individual rating that goes up and down in WvW. There's no special reward for winning a monthly/daily tourney. Many encounters don't involve equal sides meeting at all (most SPvP players would write a 4v5 match off as a loss almost immediately; 4v5 is perfectly acceptable odds in WvW).

[Chaba.5410]

What is this in reference to?

[RlyOsim.2497]

37 minutes ago, ASP.8093 said:

That's not really true, though.

The gear in SPvP is different. WvW players get Concentration and Expertise on our gear. We get full tank gear for condi builds and supports. We get Celestial gear, too. We get burst damage sigils, we get a Cleansing sigil that clears a whole little stack of conditions, we get runes with seriously big modifiers for condition duration &c.

The pace of SPvP is different. Compared to SPvP, the scoring cycle in WvW is a lot slower and the gaps between fights are a lot bigger. Things that feel overly "stalemate-y" in SPvP might be fine in WvW because holding a node for 20 more seconds isn't actually super high value in WvW. Being able to "rotate" from fight to fight quickly isn't really a thing (instead, people use their mobility mainly to chase/escape). It's much quicker to flip any undefended SPvP objective than it is to take a camp or a tower.

The stakes in SPvP are different. There's no individual rating that goes up and down in WvW. There's no special reward for winning a monthly/daily tourney. Many encounters don't involve equal sides meeting at all (most SPvP players would write a 4v5 match off as a loss almost immediately; 4v5 is perfectly acceptable odds in WvW).

 

i do understand your general point but i would feel its clear that stuff that's over/under-tuned in pvp, in that same context, is problematic in wvw. its not as frequent or immediate but still pretty problematic. beyond that, wvw is stale af and it's a real pain-point for many wvw people so why not just give the pvp nerfs (or buffs) in wvw a try when they happen, wvw is pvp after all.

Edited July 30, 2022 by RlyOsim.2497

[SoftFootpaws.9134]

2 hours ago, ASP.8093 said:

That's not really true, though.

The gear in SPvP is different. WvW players get Concentration and Expertise on our gear. We get full tank gear for condi builds and supports. We get Celestial gear, too. We get burst damage sigils, we get a Cleansing sigil that clears a whole little stack of conditions, we get runes with seriously big modifiers for condition duration &c.

The pace of SPvP is different. Compared to SPvP, the scoring cycle in WvW is a lot slower and the gaps between fights are a lot bigger. Things that feel overly "stalemate-y" in SPvP might be fine in WvW because holding a node for 20 more seconds isn't actually super high value in WvW. Being able to "rotate" from fight to fight quickly isn't really a thing (instead, people use their mobility mainly to chase/escape). It's much quicker to flip any undefended SPvP objective than it is to take a camp or a tower.

The stakes in SPvP are different. There's no individual rating that goes up and down in WvW. There's no special reward for winning a monthly/daily tourney. Many encounters don't involve equal sides meeting at all (most SPvP players would write a 4v5 match off as a loss almost immediately; 4v5 is perfectly acceptable odds in WvW).

This is a really good post but I'd like to add, I feel like some of this is what I feel is wrong with WvW, as it can often feel stale and slow compared to PvP despite being in a similar setup.

 

I wish WvW had more ways to encourage players to engage in it like its PvP instead of PvD such as more open-field objectives etc. An example from a game I played in the past was that bridges had towers that could be taken by a single player, and used to control enemy movement through territories. Camps are pretty much the only salvation the game mode has on a small-scale, and they're low in number, miles apart and hard to defend.

 

For a competitive game mode it has very little PvP outside of blob vs blob and 1pushing. That's one of the reasons that balance doesn't even really matter on a small scale.

Edited July 30, 2022 by Mariyuuna.6508

[Riba.3271]

3 hours ago, Mariyuuna.6508 said:

 

I wish WvW had more ways to encourage players to engage in it like its PvP

 

3 hours ago, Mariyuuna.6508 said:

 

For a competitive game mode it has very little PvP outside of blob vs blob and 1pushing.

This is because claim buffs were added and all guilds/blobs transited to open field. Before that long-term sieges and 3-ways in garrisons/eb keeps were a thing. Attacking is just boring when you need to deal +15% damage and take -15% damage to match the enemy (no way to play around it).  Especially for smaller groups. And if you are very good player, even defending is often boring because it is too easy.

 

So yes, if you are trying to take keeps instead of farming near them, you are PPTing. Inside it isn't PvP anymore.

Edited July 30, 2022 by Riba.3271

[Dawdler.8521]

1 hour ago, Riba.3271 said:

So yes, if you are trying to take keeps instead of farming near them, you are PPTing. Inside it isn't PvP anymore.

When you start thinking that extremely binary, you're not really playing WvW anymore.

[Riba.3271]

14 minutes ago, Dawdler.8521 said:

When you start thinking that extremely binary, you're not really playing WvW anymore.

Well you can still push to towers and SM to avoid half the bonus. It still makes quite a large difference, enough to kill small scale PvP capturing and dueling since 1 runeset extra stats is pretty big there.

Edited July 30, 2022 by Riba.3271

[ASP.8093]

4 hours ago, Riba.3271 said:

This is because claim buffs were added and all guilds/blobs transited to open field. Before that long-term sieges and 3-ways in garrisons/eb keeps were a thing. Attacking is just boring when you need to deal +15% damage and take -15% damage to match the enemy (no way to play around it).  Especially for smaller groups. And if you are very good player, even defending is often boring because it is too easy.

 

So yes, if you are trying to take keeps instead of farming near them, you are PPTing. Inside it isn't PvP anymore.

I play with a smaller group, mostly fight-focused (about 10 is our usual number), and in like two years I've never once heard anyone say we shouldn't do a thing because of the claim buff.

[Strider Pj.2193]

1 hour ago, ASP.8093 said:

I play with a smaller group, mostly fight-focused (about 10 is our usual number), and in like two years I've never once heard anyone say we shouldn't do a thing because of the claim buff.

This^.

 

The posters that are into the claim buff ‘killing WvW’ evidently need to find other people to play with.  

[Strider Pj.2193]

1 hour ago, ASP.8093 said:

I play with a smaller group, mostly fight-focused (about 10 is our usual number), and in like two years I've never once heard anyone say we shouldn't do a thing because of the claim buff.

And I also wonder why those banging the claim buff drum also aren’t complaining about exotic vs ascended.  If they truly cared about the stat differences, they should ask for everyone to be auto leveled to ascended stat level, regardless of armor type.(white gear included)

 

But yeah, claim buff isn’t the issue killing fights.
 

And if someone is following people that talk about that being the excuse reason for losing fights, then  maybe they need to find a new group.  🤷

[God.2708]

4 minutes ago, Strider Pj.2193 said:

And I also wonder why those banging the claim buff drum also aren’t complaining about exotic vs ascended.  If they truly cared about the stat differences, they should ask for everyone to be auto leveled to ascended stat level, regardless of armor type.(white gear included)

 

But yeah, claim buff isn’t the issue killing fights.
 

And if someone is following people that talk about that being the excuse reason for losing fights, then  maybe they need to find a new group.  🤷

The stat difference in full ascended gear vs RARE GEAR is less than the stat difference a keep claim gives. Defenders could be dressed in yellows vs people in max gear WITH STAT INFUSIONS and still have the advantage in stats from a pure numbers standpoint.

I'm not going to say this is the cause of the downfall of WvW or anything extreme, but I have definitely witnessed large scale fights that swing based on who's territory we're fighting in and it's under the radar as far as what you notice in a fight. It's also totally uncontrollable (beyond picking where you fight) so you generally don't speak up about it beyond a 'Let's not fight them in their keep' line.

[Strider Pj.2193]

10 minutes ago, God.2708 said:

The stat difference in full ascended gear vs RARE GEAR is less than the stat difference a keep claim gives. Defenders could be dressed in yellows vs people in max gear WITH STAT INFUSIONS and still have the advantage in stats from a pure numbers standpoint.

I'm not going to say this is the cause of the downfall of WvW or anything extreme, but I have definitely witnessed large scale fights that swing based on who's territory we're fighting in and it's under the radar as far as what you notice in a fight. It's also totally uncontrollable (beyond picking where you fight) so you generally don't speak up about it beyond a 'Let's not fight them in their keep' line.

Honestly, played WvW for 9 years (missed the first 6-8 months because I didn’t know about it lol). Played constantly since tactics and claim buffs were instituted.  I have never heard a commander I’ve run with talk about it.  
 

I am not saying commanders don’t..  I just have experienced  in this game of numbers that positioning and coordination overcome it easily.  

[kash.9213]

10 hours ago, Mariyuuna.6508 said:

This is a really good post but I'd like to add, I feel like some of this is what I feel is wrong with WvW, as it can often feel stale and slow compared to PvP despite being in a similar setup.

 

I wish WvW had more ways to encourage players to engage in it like its PvP instead of PvD such as more open-field objectives etc. An example from a game I played in the past was that bridges had towers that could be taken by a single player, and used to control enemy movement through territories. Camps are pretty much the only salvation the game mode has on a small-scale, and they're low in number, miles apart and hard to defend.

 

For a competitive game mode it has very little PvP outside of blob vs blob and 1pushing. That's one of the reasons that balance doesn't even really matter on a small scale.

There's no wandering or exploration and no lived in game world or populated quality in WvW outside of those blobs. Even if you're roaming or floating around you're probably going to at least scope out the lane they've dredged. That's natural though, it's a multiplayer game, people expect to socialize and flex around people while developing their character. The only real character development in WvW is vibing with your build tuned to a composition on some scale. People have to leave WvW for anything else. 

[Ronin.4501]

4 hours ago, ASP.8093 said:

I play with a smaller group, mostly fight-focused (about 10 is our usual number), and in like two years I've never once heard anyone say we shouldn't do a thing because of the claim buff.

 

2 hours ago, God.2708 said:

The stat difference in full ascended gear vs RARE GEAR is less than the stat difference a keep claim gives. Defenders could be dressed in yellows vs people in max gear WITH STAT INFUSIONS and still have the advantage in stats from a pure numbers standpoint.

I'm not going to say this is the cause of the downfall of WvW or anything extreme, but I have definitely witnessed large scale fights that swing based on who's territory we're fighting in and it's under the radar as far as what you notice in a fight. It's also totally uncontrollable (beyond picking where you fight) so you generally don't speak up about it beyond a 'Let's not fight them in their keep' line.

ASP is correct.  The only reason you'll hear commanders say "Let's not fight them in their keep" is generally because they've siege-capped the place (especially around choke points), and while a single arrow cart isn't making a big difference, half-a-dozen of them raining down cripple and bleeds every few seconds is a problem unless you've got a 50-man squad that's 80% firebrands/scrappers.

The only person I see consistently complaining about the claim buff is Riba (aka Threather), who has been posting a monthly rant about it over and over and over and over and over again for the past few years.

Edited July 30, 2022 by Ronin.4501

[Riba.3271]

4 hours ago, ASP.8093 said:

I play with a smaller group, mostly fight-focused (about 10 is our usual number), and in like two years I've never once heard anyone say we shouldn't do a thing because of the claim buff.

 

2 hours ago, Strider Pj.2193 said:

 

But yeah, claim buff isn’t the issue killing fights.
 

And if someone is following people that talk about that being the excuse reason for losing fights, then  maybe they need to find a new group.  🤷

Even if you don't talk about it, it is still an issue. You just need to ask yourself: Would WvW be better if claim buff was reduced or increased? And how much? to arrive to same conclusion. None of you would say it should be increased but if you weight the positives of it being reduced, you will notice it is actually damaging to WvW. Anyone who has played any form of 1v1 knows 1 runeset worth of stats is a lot of damage/survivability. You can even test it by trying to play after taking 1 or 2 trinkets off from everyone in your group. Once you do that, you will actually arrive to same conclusion, but I believe you will choose to remain ignorant and not do so.

Imagine trying to cata a keep with 3 players, having to deal with lord and get wiped by 3 players that play worse than you due to extra stats. Once that happens repeatedly, you will just stop attacking things.

Edited July 30, 2022 by Riba.3271

[Strider Pj.2193]

3 minutes ago, Riba.3271 said:

 

Even if you don't talk about it, it is still an issue. You just need to ask yourself: Would WvW be better if claim buff was reduced or increased? And how much? to arrive to same conclusion. None of you would say it should be increased but if you weight the positives of it being reduced, you will notice it is actually damaging to WvW. Anyone who has played any form of 1v1 knows 1 runeset worth of stats is a lot of damage/survivability.

Imagine trying to cata a keep with 3 players, having to deal with lord and get wiped by 3 players that play worse than you due to extra stats. Once that happens repeatedly, you will just stop attacking things.

Ok…,  No one has said it doesn’t make a difference.  That there is 0 impact.  
 

It just is negligible.  If THAT is the reason you can’t get a structure, something else is wrong.

 

3v3 with one being the enemy keep lord, yeah, that’s a tough fight.  Regardless of the buff.

 

Plus, this isn’t 1v1.  Synergized builds and coordination means so much more.  

[Riba.3271]

7 minutes ago, Strider Pj.2193 said:

It just is negligible.  If THAT is the reason you can’t get a structure, something else is wrong.

Well math says that difference of blues and reds choosing to fight either at ogrewatch and durios is +200 power, + 200 precision, +200 toughness, +200 vitality. Math will indicate that is over 13% damage dealt and capability to survive 20% more burst. Are these kind of differences really neglible? Arent these already at level where you win fight at one and lose at the other?

So let me ask you, if on neutral ground 2 groups fighting have 50-50 winrate, how much would you reckon 1 claim buff shift it? 60-40? 65-35? 55-45?

Even if it as low as 55-45, that is still winning 20% more fights than enemy just by doing nothing but defending. Of course you also get to enjoy all other defender advantages.

Edited July 30, 2022 by Riba.3271

[Strider Pj.2193]

50 minutes ago, Riba.3271 said:

Well math says that difference of blues and reds choosing to fight either at ogrewatch and durios is +200 power, + 200 precision, +200 toughness, +200 vitality. Math will indicate that is over 13% damage dealt and capability to survive 20% more burst. Are these kind of differences really neglible? Arent these already at level where you win fight at one and lose at the other?

So let me ask you, if on neutral ground 2 groups fighting have 50-50 winrate, how much would you reckon 1 claim buff shift it? 60-40? 65-35? 55-45?

Even if it as low as 55-45, that is still winning 20% more fights than enemy just by doing nothing but defending. Of course you also get to enjoy all other defender advantages.

Again, that isn’t 3v3 with a lord.  
 

Other than siege, what OTHER benefit is there to defending?  None.  Yes, defenders SHOULD have an advantage.  
 

Also, your plus 200 (for the stats involved) only accounts for a keep with presence of the keep intact.  Not the towers.  And keeps SHOUKD be hard to take.

 

Not the killer of fights that you want to say it is.  
 

Once again, if you are following people complaining about the claim buff, find someone else to follow.

[Riba.3271]

14 minutes ago, Strider Pj.2193 said:

if you are following people complaining about the claim buff, find someone else to follow.

Honestly you just ignored all questions and arguments I put in my message so I am thinking you are kind of impossible to reason with. There are plenty of benefits to defending such as tactics, escaping through portals, stealth engage advantage, respawns.

I am just trying to make the gamemode better place by promoting offensive gameplay, reducing clouds, returning guild raids within keeps and reducing server stacking. So I do not really see what you have against reducing claim buff.

And no, no one around me complains about claim buff, this is deduction you can arrive into yourself by gathering data and what people/groups do or avoid doing

Yes, claim buff reduces amount of WvW activity and fights. There is no doubt about it.

Edited July 30, 2022 by Riba.3271

[Strider Pj.2193]

18 minutes ago, Riba.3271 said:

. So I do not really see what you have against reducing claim buff.

And no, no one around me complains about claim buff, this is deduction you can arrive into yourself by gathering data and what people/groups do or avoid doing

Yes, claim buff reduces amount of WvW activity and fights. There is no doubt about it.

I find defenders need an advantage.  The keep is the one space where they get your +200 in the right circumstances.

 

And then..  you basically say, ‘no one complains’, that it is a deduction I can reach.  Sure you see there is an advantage.  Welcome to wvw.  
 

But yo state it ‘reduces amount of WvW activity and fights’.  What EVIDENCE do you have for that?  I stated in MY experience, no commander I’ve followed has ever backed out because of the claim buff.  They’ve backed out because of a kitten level of siege.  They’ve consistently wiped equal sized groups at a greater than 50% rate, once the siege is eliminated.  
 

So, I feel NO obligation to address your other points as it doesn’t  affect fights.  
 

Because 50-50 win rates DONT exist anywhere in WvW.  Period.  It isn’t balanced and won’t be balanced.  
 

If you want ‘balanced’ fights push for a 15v15 sPvP.  
 

 

[God.2708]

25 minutes ago, Strider Pj.2193 said:

I find defenders need an advantage.  The keep is the one space where they get your +200 in the right circumstances.

 

And then..  you basically say, ‘no one complains’, that it is a deduction I can reach.  Sure you see there is an advantage.  Welcome to wvw.  
 

But yo state it ‘reduces amount of WvW activity and fights’.  What EVIDENCE do you have for that?  I stated in MY experience, no commander I’ve followed has ever backed out because of the claim buff.  They’ve backed out because of a kitten level of siege.  They’ve consistently wiped equal sized groups at a greater than 50% rate, once the siege is eliminated.  
 

So, I feel NO obligation to address your other points as it doesn’t  affect fights.  
 

Because 50-50 win rates DONT exist anywhere in WvW.  Period.  It isn’t balanced and won’t be balanced.  
 

If you want ‘balanced’ fights push for a 15v15 sPvP.  
 

 

Just because it gets attributed to siege doesn't mean it's accurate.

More siege implies there are more players around, and players to utilize said siege. I've seen plenty of commanders attribute to siege when really they just stood still whilst an equitable number of players clouded the tail out whilst not really responding. They run away and say 'To many ACs!!!' when there's like... two.

I have also been in zergs where the commander accurately notes we demolish the enemy outside of the keep and then pushes in the keep and the fight suddenly becomes a lot closer, with no siege in sight. Or the inverse where the fight outside the keep is close and then we go in and get absolutely demolished. Could blame the siege (that usually isn't around besides maybe a single stray AC) or could blame the 800 stat point swing, which again is -literally- two ranks worth of gear stat difference.

If I told you to go 1v1 someone of equal skill in rare armor while they were in ascended, and you lost everytime, you probably wouldn't be here on the forums staying X class is OP. You'd accurately say 'Gee, put me in ascended so we can have an actual fight.'

And even if people don't say 'It's the stat difference', it is easy for a subtle swing in fight turn outs to change how nights play out, and that to culturally affect the game as a whole. I don't hear people say 'Let's not push that keep because of the stat buff.' But I hear people say 'Kitten attacking that t3 keep' ALL THE TIME, and you can pin that attitude on whatever you want, but I don't think chipping away at that difference is a bad thing because the mode needs people to attack or content simply doesn't exist.

[ASP.8093]

2 hours ago, Riba.3271 said:

Imagine trying to cata a keep with 3 players, having to deal with lord and get wiped by 3 players that play worse than you due to extra stats. Once that happens repeatedly, you will just stop attacking things.

If situations like that made me tilted, then I'd have to quit WvW altogether because I'd constantly be falling into the same rage/excuses cycle over 3v4s, over NPC guards getting a lucky hit/CC in while I'm fighting players, over other players having builds that are more optimized for fighting mine at the expense of broader performance, over ascended food buffs, and over pocket healers especially.

 

3 hours ago, Riba.3271 said:

Once you do that, you will actually arrive to same conclusion, but I believe you will choose to remain ignorant and not do so.

This is pathological.

Me: "I don't give a kitten. My friends don't give a kitten."
You: "Ah, but you have chosen not to give a kitten!"

Yes. Exactly. You can't make up your mind about whether most people in WvW are mad about claim buffs, or simply should be mad about claim buffs even though they're not.

 

2 hours ago, Riba.3271 said:

You just need to ask yourself: Would WvW be better if claim buff was reduced or increased? And how much?

You just need to ask yourself: is your pet issue actually relevant to this thread?

[Blood Red Arachnid.2493]

The OP isn't always right, but many times it is.  I greatly lament all of the busted stuff in small scale that gets fixed in PVP and not WvW.  

[Xenash.1245]

Maybe depending on the context, but they're two completely different modes and you can't really just say something that's good in one will be good in the other.