DragonScale Defense Tooltip is likely incorrect.

[Azure The Heartless.3261]

Its been said before,  just...yknow, fyi.

You're supposed to have to take Daring Dragon to get the stability on dragon trigger that Dragonscale Defense provides,  which forces you to give up the stun/unblockable/unblindable youd get from Unyielding Dragon. Instead,  you are currently getting the stability on every dragon trigger,  regardless of which grandmaster you pick.

 

Keep that in mind for balancing discussion. 

 

EDIT: I was incorrect about this. The cooldown appears to be every 8 seconds, matching PVE. This is either functioning as intended, and the tooltip is incorrect, or the tooltip is correct and Dragonscale Defense is unsplit from PVE. If it turns out the latter case is the truth, then perhaps consider adjusting the CD to 16 seconds (every other Dragon Trigger).

Edited August 17, 2022 by Azure The Heartless.3261

[Bast.7253]

I was wondering about that. 

Are there more bugs than this? It's always seemed kind of overloaded considering it's unblockable. 

[Trevor Boyer.6524]

39 minutes ago, Bast.7253 said:

I was wondering about that. 

Are there more bugs than this? It's always seemed kind of overloaded considering it's unblockable. 

No one seems to ever bring it up, but I'm pretty sure Artillery Slash is dealing A LOT more damage than it shows in the UI.

If you actually compare these two:

1. Long Range Shot - Guild Wars 2 Wiki (GW2W)
2. Artillery Slash - Guild Wars 2 Wiki (GW2W)

They should be dealing roughly the same type of damage output, but yet Artillery Slash easily lands double to triple the kind of DPS output that Long Range Shot pushes out.

And no, it's not just the might stacks and vuln from Bladesworn. Soulbeast & Untamed also gets an amalgam of massive damage multipliers such as Sic Em, Marks Mods, and plenty of vuln. But LRS deals half or worse of the damage that a single AS lands. A single AS hits harder than a marks mod Untamed who has all mods prepped and even hits you with the unleashed version of LRS. Something is wrong there.

Getting hit by an AS feels more akin to an Eviscerate strike than it does something with the coefficients that it shows in the UI.

When I run my Soulbeast, sometimes I get caught off guard by a Bladesworn, he spams 2 or 3 AS at me and it hits with a burst that is on par with if an opponent Soulbeast running my same build were to Sic Em One Wolf Pack Rapid Fire me. Again, something is just wrong with that damage output.

Dev team needs to look into it.

Edited August 16, 2022 by Trevor Boyer.6524

[Azure The Heartless.3261]

56 minutes ago, Bast.7253 said:

I was wondering about that. 

Are there more bugs than this? It's always seemed kind of overloaded considering it's unblockable. 

 

It's overloaded, but consider that if the class was functioning properly, in most cases the warrior was standing still for one - several seconds without stability (Without Daring dragon, Stability should be proccing once every minute on dragon trigger). Triggerguard has a 30 second cd, so it will not be available for every Dragon trigger. Some of these bursts you should be able to just plain interrupt by design. 

I think that is extremely counterplayable if you consider how it is supposed to function. So much so that I'd argue it's poorly designed. But that's another  topic.

20 minutes ago, Trevor Boyer.6524 said:

No one seems to ever bring it up, but I'm pretty sure Artillery Slash is dealing A LOT more damage than it shows in the UI.

If you actually compare these two:

1. Long Range Shot - Guild Wars 2 Wiki (GW2W)
2. Artillery Slash - Guild Wars 2 Wiki (GW2W)

They should be dealing roughly the same type of damage output, but yet Artillery Slash easily lands double to triple the

Nah. At least, I think the tooltip's right Consider the coefficients and the adjusted damage for long range shot on the pvp tab.

L. Shot Is:   231 (0.6)^? 

A. Slash is   409 (1.15)^? 

For reference, I can crit about 5k on Throw Axe while running a glass amulet on Zerker, assuming the opponent is under 50% hp. . considering Bladesworn tends to float around 10-20 might just by nature of pressing shouts, the damage output of Artillery Slash is believable for what it says on the tin. I tend to get hit by that for around 6-7k depending on what my armor rating is, so seems about par.

You can argue it -shouldn't- be that much pretty easily I reckon, but I don't think the tooltip's wrong.  

I don't think Bladesworn is currently fair, but I am pretty sure a good part of that unfairness is due to the thing being broken. 

Edited August 16, 2022 by Azure The Heartless.3261

[Trevor Boyer.6524]

20 minutes ago, Azure The Heartless.3261 said:

 

It's overloaded, but consider that if the class was functioning properly, in most cases the warrior was standing still for one - several seconds without stability (Without Daring dragon, Stability should be proccing once every minute on dragon trigger). Triggerguard has a 30 second cd, so it will not be available for every Dragon trigger. Some of these bursts you should be able to just plain interrupt by design. 

I think that is extremely counterplayable if you consider how it is supposed to function. So much so that I'd argue it's poorly designed. But that's another  topic.

Nah. At least, I think the tooltip's right Consider the coefficients and the adjusted damage for long range shot on the pvp tab.

L. Shot Is:   231 (0.6)^? 

A. Slash is   409 (1.15)^? 

For reference, I can crit about 5k on Throw Axe while running a glass amulet on Zerker, assuming the opponent is under 50% hp. . considering Bladesworn tends to float around 10-20 might just by nature of pressing shouts, the damage output of Artillery Slash is believable for what it says on the tin. I tend to get hit by that for around 6-7k depending on what my armor rating is, so seems about par.

You can argue it -shouldn't- be that much pretty easily I reckon, but I don't think the tooltip's wrong.  

I don't think Bladesworn is currently fair, but I am pretty sure a good part of that unfairness is due to the thing being broken. 

Not sure where you're getting those numbers.

My page shows:

1. LRS - Maximum damage: 424 (1.1)?
2. AS - Damage: 409 (1.15)?

I dunno man, I could be wrong. Just feels like AS often hits me as hard as the Dragon Trigger does.

Feels off sometimes.

[Azure The Heartless.3261]

23 minutes ago, Trevor Boyer.6524 said:

Not sure where you're getting those numbers.

My page shows:

1. LRS - Maximum damage: 424 (1.1)?
2. AS - Damage: 409 (1.15)?

I dunno man, I could be wrong. Just feels like AS often hits me as hard as the Dragon Trigger does.

Feels off sometimes.

 

Long range shot is adjusted for pvp. click the pvp tab.

Quote

I dunno man, I could be wrong. Just feels like AS often hits me as hard as the Dragon Trigger does.

I mean, yeah, it does do that. Idk what to tell you. Dragon Slash - Force has approximately the same base damage on max charges, with a higher coeff. So, you might see similar numbers as catching an artillery slash if Force is around fully charged. 

Edited August 16, 2022 by Azure The Heartless.3261

[Terrorhuz.4695]

4 hours ago, Trevor Boyer.6524 said:

No one seems to ever bring it up, but I'm pretty sure Artillery Slash is dealing A LOT more damage than it shows in the UI.

If you actually compare these two:

1. Long Range Shot - Guild Wars 2 Wiki (GW2W)
2. Artillery Slash - Guild Wars 2 Wiki (GW2W)

They should be dealing roughly the same type of damage output, but yet Artillery Slash easily lands double to triple the kind of DPS output that Long Range Shot pushes out.

Doesn't warrior get the improved might? 40 power per might stack instead of the usual 30. I know there's a trait to do so, I'm not sure bladesworn runs it but that could explain the difference.

Edited August 16, 2022 by Terrorhuz.4695

[Lan Deathrider.5910]

5 hours ago, Trevor Boyer.6524 said:

No one seems to ever bring it up, but I'm pretty sure Artillery Slash is dealing A LOT more damage than it shows in the UI.

If you actually compare these two:

1. Long Range Shot - Guild Wars 2 Wiki (GW2W)
2. Artillery Slash - Guild Wars 2 Wiki (GW2W)

They should be dealing roughly the same type of damage output, but yet Artillery Slash easily lands double to triple the kind of DPS output that Long Range Shot pushes out.

And no, it's not just the might stacks and vuln from Bladesworn. Soulbeast & Untamed also gets an amalgam of massive damage multipliers such as Sic Em, Marks Mods, and plenty of vuln. But LRS deals half or worse of the damage that a single AS lands. A single AS hits harder than a marks mod Untamed who has all mods prepped and even hits you with the unleashed version of LRS. Something is wrong there.

The PvP/WvW splits are LRS: 0.6 at max range, 0.466 at minimum range while AS is 1.15, so your double to triple damage delta checks out just from the tool tips...

5 hours ago, Trevor Boyer.6524 said:

Getting hit by an AS feels more akin to an Eviscerate strike than it does something with the coefficients that it shows in the UI.

When I run my Soulbeast, sometimes I get caught off guard by a Bladesworn, he spams 2 or 3 AS at me and it hits with a burst that is on par with if an opponent Soulbeast running my same build were to Sic Em One Wolf Pack Rapid Fire me. Again, something is just wrong with that damage output.

Dev team needs to look into it.

The the "1/2s CD" between uses on AS is the culprit here. It doesn't feel like it has a CD when it is used. It would be better if the CD were 1s. That would reinforce it's identity as a skill to weave in between other skills rather then just spamming it's load all over someone.

[Lan Deathrider.5910]

1 hour ago, Terrorhuz.4695 said:

Doesn't warrior get the improved might? 40 power per might stack instead of the usual 30. I know there's a trait to do so, I'm not sure bladesworn runs it but that could explain the difference.

Pinnacle of Strength grandmaster minor trait from the Strength trait line.

[Sahne.6950]

5 hours ago, Trevor Boyer.6524 said:

he spams 2 or 3 AS at me and it hits with a burst that is on par with if an opponent Soulbeast running my same build were to Sic Em One Wolf Pack Rapid Fire me.

i am calling Bu llsh it  on that one!

if your sicem+OWP+RF doesnt outdamage someone pressig AS twice or even three times.... theres something wrong with your build. That right there is called bias.

Edited August 16, 2022 by Sahne.6950

[Bazsi.2734]

I'm here to provide insightful commentary.

Bugsworn lmao!

Edit: No but seriously a-net, you are at least 4 months late at fixing this stuff. I know this stuff was reported by then.

Edited August 16, 2022 by Bazsi.2734

[Shao.7236]

13 hours ago, Trevor Boyer.6524 said:

Not sure where you're getting those numbers.

My page shows:

1. LRS - Maximum damage: 424 (1.1)?
2. AS - Damage: 409 (1.15)?

I dunno man, I could be wrong. Just feels like AS often hits me as hard as the Dragon Trigger does.

Feels off sometimes.

On My Mark is often used with it which adds 15% more damage easily.

[Trevor Boyer.6524]

8 hours ago, Sahne.6950 said:

i am calling Bu llsh it  on that one!

if your sicem+OWP+RF doesnt outdamage someone pressig AS twice or even three times.... theres something wrong with your build. That right there is called bias.

Man that is a classy response.

 

@Azure The Heartless.3261 @Terrorhuz.4695 @Lan Deathrider.5910

 

Yes, I was wrong about the tooltip possibly being incorrect on AS. This was because I did not realize LRS was split in spvp when I was comparing the in-game "feel" of AS vs. LRS.

However, I definitely feel that AS should not be dealing the type of damage output that it is. That coefficient could go down from 1.15 to 1.00 at the least, or they could increase the animation time of AS from 1/2s to 3/4s, in my opinion, and here is why ->

I was running tests today on the indestructible golem, using the standard edition Bladesworn exactly as listed on metabattle, while testing various different weapon combinations. But while in Bladesworn kits, everything works exactly the same as listed meta. Then of course I am also using Gank to compare these DPS values and the times taken to cast them.

What I found on Bladesworn is that if I utilize stim state double cast for the 3s of quickness, I can land one-bursts in many different ways that all lean on AS, which is the important bulk of the burst. So first of all, AS by itself after prepping your might & vuln & quickness, will deal roughly 3580 as a min and 4100'ish as a max, almost always averaging out between the 3x hits as an 11.5k burst vs. the heavy target. These 3x strikes are all 1/2 second animations, that with quickness on, only take 3/4th of a second to land all 3 strikes. You still have 2 to 2 and 1/4th seconds of quickness to land other meaningful attacks in the burst, either before or after, but that 3x AS is the bulk of any burst. There are ways to easily land 15k-20k one-bursts with the 3 seconds stim state quick buff. Keep in mind that burning shout/stim charges to do this would be a 1v1 thing or for when someone isn't paying attention in a team fight. In all practicality, you'd just want to follow your Harbinger around and benefit this quickness for free.

I notice that 95% of players using Bladesworn only see it as a brawly bruiser and don't take advantage of moments when priming all of these buffs for coordinated bursting will result in a swift downstate, but the burst potential IS there for players who know when to land it right so the ICDs aren't wasted.

While running various different weapon combos, which I can run a short stream of for comparison if anyone wants to see it, I was able to do 3 to 4 second death bursts on a standard Bladesworn that would bring the indestructible golem from 100% health down to 65% or in some cases as low as 56% with more offensive weapon combos.

This kind of DPS output ^ is definitely on par with a glass cannon Sic Em OWP Soulbeast. While running the same kinds of tests on Gank, which I have been doing for years and did again today, a single Sic Em OWP Rapid Fire will bring the golem from 100% to around 75% to 77%, which is a 1 and 1/4th second cast with quickness. If you add Barrage into this, it'll drop the golem to about 55% to 57% but the animation times go more like 3 to 4 seconds with how you have to begin Barrage cast first and delay the proc of quickness/sic em/OWP to get maximum DPS output. If you ignore Barrage and do Rapid Fire and go directly into Maul/WI it will drop the golem to again around 55%. The only time a Sic Em Soulbeast can cleanly out DPS a Bladesworn is if the Soulbeast is able to land a full maximum pve level burst where you cast Barrage, prime the buffs, go into Rapid Fire, execute Maul into WI into Hilt Bash into Maul again, and in that case it will drop the golem to around 25% health, but it is highly unrealistic to land that full burst on any decent player. Realistically you're looking at cast Barrage slightly behind a Necro so he doesn'st move, then LB4 him into the Barrage and begin Rapid Fire, before he gets up and moves or counterplays in some way. Or realistically you're looking at coming in hot out of stealth with a LB4 knockback into Rapid Fire vs someone else you have to go melee on, and hope you can connect with Maul > WI or at least Maul or at least a follow up Smoke Assault, which again is going to be a drop on inde golem from 100% to like 60% or 55% if the rolls land right.

TLDR - What I'm trying to say is that AS is providing too much burst potential for the sustain capabilities provided on Bladesworn. Arenanet needs to either increase the 1/2s animation time on AS to stretch out the time it takes to deal that level of burst, or possibly keep that burst potential and maybe nerf imo the elite skill which is highly responsible for the ever-cycling promethean incredible hulk like sustain it has.

Again, I can stream this if anyone wants to see this first hand. Standard super-sustainy Bladesworn is definitely capable of Sic Em OWP like bursts.

 

Edited August 16, 2022 by Trevor Boyer.6524

[Azure The Heartless.3261]

6 minutes ago, Trevor Boyer.6524 said:

Man that is a classy response.

 

@Azure The Heartless.3261 @Terrorhuz.4695 @Lan Deathrider.5910

 

Yes, I was wrong about the tooltip possibly being incorrect on AS. This was because I did not realize LRS was split in spvp when I was comparing the in-game "feel" of AS vs. LRS.

However, I definitely feel that AS should not be dealing the type of damage output that it is. That coefficient could go down from 1.15 to 1.00 at the least, or they could increase the animation time of AS from 1/2s to 3/4s, in my opinion, and here is why ->

I was running tests today on the indestructible golem, using the standard edition Bladesworn exactly as listed on metabattle, while testing various different weapon combinations. But while in Bladesworn kits, everything works exactly the same as listed meta. Then of course I am also using Gank to compare these DPS values and the times taken to cast them.

What I found on Bladesworn is that if I utilize stim state double cast for the 3s of quickness, I can land one-bursts in many different ways that all lean on AS, which is the important bulk of the burst. So first of all, AS by itself after prepping your might & vuln & quickness, will deal roughly 3580 as a min and 4100'ish as a max, almost always averaging out between the 3x hits as an 11.5k burst vs. the heavy target. These 3x strikes are all 1/2 second animations, that with quickness on, only take 3/4th of a second to land all 3 strikes. You still have 2 to 2 and 1/4th seconds of quickness to land other meaningful attacks in the burst, either before or after, but that 3x AS is the bulk of any burst. There are ways to easily land 15k-20k one-bursts with the 3 seconds stim state quick buff. Keep in mind that burning shout/stim charges to do this would be a 1v1 thing or for when someone isn't paying attention in a team fight. In all practicality, you'd just want to follow your Harbinger around and benefit this quickness for free.

I notice that 95% of players using Bladesworn only see it as a brawly bruiser and don't take advantage of moments when priming all of these buffs for coordinated bursting will result in a swift downstate, but the burst potential IS there for players who know when to land it right so the ICDs aren't wasted.

While running various different weapon combos, which I can run a short stream of for comparison if anyone wants to see it, I was able to do 3 to 4 second death bursts on a standard Bladesworn that would bring the indestructible golem from 100% health down to 65% or in some cases as low as 56% with more offensive weapon combos.

This kind of DPS output ^ is definitely on par with a glass cannon Sic Em OWP Soulbeast. While running the same kinds of tests on Gank, which I have been doing for years and did again today, a single Sic Em OWP Rapid Fire will bring the golem from 100% to around 75% to 77%, which is a 1 and 1/4th second cast with quickness. If you add Barrage into this, it'll drop the golem to about 55% to 57% but the animation times go more like 3 to 4 seconds with how you have to begin Barrage cast first and delay the proc of quickness/sic em/OWP to get maximum DPS output. If you ignore Barrage and do Rapid Fire and go directly into Maul/WI it will drop the golem to again around 55%. The only time a Sic Em Soulbeast can cleanly out DPS a Bladesworn is if the Soulbeast is able to land a full maximum pve level burst where you cast Barrage, prime the buffs, go into Rapid Fire, execute Maul into WI into Hilt Bash into Maul again, and in that case it will drop the golem to around 25% health, but it is highly unrealistic to land that full burst on any decent player. Realistically you're looking at cast Barrage slightly behind a Necro so he doesn'st move, then LB4 him into the Barrage and begin Rapid Fire, before he gets up and moves or counterplays in some way. Or realistically you're looking at coming in hot out of stealth with a LB4 knockback into Rapid Fire vs someone else you have to go melee on, and hope you can connect with Maul > WI or at least Maul or at least a follow up Smoke Assault, which again is going to be a drop on inde golem from 100% to like 60% or 55% if the rolls land right.

TLDR - What I'm trying to say is that AS is providing too much burst potential for the sustain capabilities provided on Bladesworn. Arenanet needs to either increase the 1/2s animation time on AS to stretch out the time it takes to deal that level of burst, or possibly keep that burst potential and maybe nerf imo the elite skill which is highly responsible for the ever-cycling promethean incredible hulk like sustain it has.

Again, I can stream this if anyone wants to see this first hand. Standard super-sustainy Bladesworn is definitely capable of Sic Em OWP like bursts.

 

 

I dont agree that it's comparable to sic'em/OWP bursts but I think coming to the conclusion A Slash does too much is reasonable. *shrug*

[Bast.7253]

14 hours ago, Trevor Boyer.6524 said:

Not sure where you're getting those numbers.

My page shows:

1. LRS - Maximum damage: 424 (1.1)?
2. AS - Damage: 409 (1.15)?

I dunno man, I could be wrong. Just feels like AS often hits me as hard as the Dragon Trigger does.

Feels off sometimes.

It does hit as hard as dragon trigger but I think that's intentional as dragon trigger is pretty nerfed in pvp. It feels about the same as taking an engi running some cheesy high damage grenade build spamming me with a full dose of grenades. 

It feels a lot like holo in general really. I think the damage is fine but the sustain makes it a bit broken. I don't know how many times I've been at 1% health and SHOULD have died but was able to spam a few shouts or the elite and more shouts and get back to full health. Not that other classes don't need tweaking and I'd hate to lose the build as it's probably the most fun I've ever had with warrior but it would be understandable to see it get nerfed. It carries hard - especially someone like me that doesn't really play warrior or have the patience to study combat animations and predict when to time something as you have to do with things like spellbreaker dagger interrupt, etc. 

I don't personally feel it does as much damage as the soulbeast burst combo though. It's also not as easy to land so there's a trade-off there. 

[Lan Deathrider.5910]

1 hour ago, Trevor Boyer.6524 said:

Man that is a classy response.

 

@Azure The Heartless.3261 @Terrorhuz.4695 @Lan Deathrider.5910

 

Yes, I was wrong about the tooltip possibly being incorrect on AS. This was because I did not realize LRS was split in spvp when I was comparing the in-game "feel" of AS vs. LRS.

However, I definitely feel that AS should not be dealing the type of damage output that it is. That coefficient could go down from 1.15 to 1.00 at the least, or they could increase the animation time of AS from 1/2s to 3/4s, in my opinion, and here is why ->

I was running tests today on the indestructible golem, using the standard edition Bladesworn exactly as listed on metabattle, while testing various different weapon combinations. But while in Bladesworn kits, everything works exactly the same as listed meta. Then of course I am also using Gank to compare these DPS values and the times taken to cast them.

What I found on Bladesworn is that if I utilize stim state double cast for the 3s of quickness, I can land one-bursts in many different ways that all lean on AS, which is the important bulk of the burst. So first of all, AS by itself after prepping your might & vuln & quickness, will deal roughly 3580 as a min and 4100'ish as a max, almost always averaging out between the 3x hits as an 11.5k burst vs. the heavy target. These 3x strikes are all 1/2 second animations, that with quickness on, only take 3/4th of a second to land all 3 strikes. You still have 2 to 2 and 1/4th seconds of quickness to land other meaningful attacks in the burst, either before or after, but that 3x AS is the bulk of any burst. There are ways to easily land 15k-20k one-bursts with the 3 seconds stim state quick buff. Keep in mind that burning shout/stim charges to do this would be a 1v1 thing or for when someone isn't paying attention in a team fight. In all practicality, you'd just want to follow your Harbinger around and benefit this quickness for free.

I notice that 95% of players using Bladesworn only see it as a brawly bruiser and don't take advantage of moments when priming all of these buffs for coordinated bursting will result in a swift downstate, but the burst potential IS there for players who know when to land it right so the ICDs aren't wasted.

While running various different weapon combos, which I can run a short stream of for comparison if anyone wants to see it, I was able to do 3 to 4 second death bursts on a standard Bladesworn that would bring the indestructible golem from 100% health down to 65% or in some cases as low as 56% with more offensive weapon combos.

This kind of DPS output ^ is definitely on par with a glass cannon Sic Em OWP Soulbeast. While running the same kinds of tests on Gank, which I have been doing for years and did again today, a single Sic Em OWP Rapid Fire will bring the golem from 100% to around 75% to 77%, which is a 1 and 1/4th second cast with quickness. If you add Barrage into this, it'll drop the golem to about 55% to 57% but the animation times go more like 3 to 4 seconds with how you have to begin Barrage cast first and delay the proc of quickness/sic em/OWP to get maximum DPS output. If you ignore Barrage and do Rapid Fire and go directly into Maul/WI it will drop the golem to again around 55%. The only time a Sic Em Soulbeast can cleanly out DPS a Bladesworn is if the Soulbeast is able to land a full maximum pve level burst where you cast Barrage, prime the buffs, go into Rapid Fire, execute Maul into WI into Hilt Bash into Maul again, and in that case it will drop the golem to around 25% health, but it is highly unrealistic to land that full burst on any decent player. Realistically you're looking at cast Barrage slightly behind a Necro so he doesn'st move, then LB4 him into the Barrage and begin Rapid Fire, before he gets up and moves or counterplays in some way. Or realistically you're looking at coming in hot out of stealth with a LB4 knockback into Rapid Fire vs someone else you have to go melee on, and hope you can connect with Maul > WI or at least Maul or at least a follow up Smoke Assault, which again is going to be a drop on inde golem from 100% to like 60% or 55% if the rolls land right.

TLDR - What I'm trying to say is that AS is providing too much burst potential for the sustain capabilities provided on Bladesworn. Arenanet needs to either increase the 1/2s animation time on AS to stretch out the time it takes to deal that level of burst, or possibly keep that burst potential and maybe nerf imo the elite skill which is highly responsible for the ever-cycling promethean incredible hulk like sustain it has.

Again, I can stream this if anyone wants to see this first hand. Standard super-sustainy Bladesworn is definitely capable of Sic Em OWP like bursts.

 

Each hit is pretty normal for a damage positive skill though. The whole problem is the short CD between uses. If that increases then the problems of AS go away.

[Tiah.3091]

16 hours ago, Azure The Heartless.3261 said:

I think that is extremely counterplayable if you consider how it is supposed to function. So much so that I'd argue it's poorly designed. But that's another  topic.

Back when they did a beta test and they have shown Bladesworn for the first time I thought "A melee spec that is designed around staying still and CHANNEL for several seconds -- yeah, that's got to be some PvE exclusive crap for those samurai manga weebs. People will just continue playing Spellbreaker..."

 

Funny how things turned out...

Edited August 16, 2022 by Tiah.3091

[Azure The Heartless.3261]

11 minutes ago, Tiah.3091 said:

Back when they did a beta test and they have shown Bladesworn for the first time I thought "A melee spec that is designed around staying still and CHANNEL for several seconds -- yeah, that's got to be some PvE exclusive crap for those samurai manga weebs. People will just continue playing Spellbreaker..."

 

Funny how things turned out...

 

Same, but back then I was looking through the lens of "Anet unnecessarily handicaps warrior" and had no idea that the lens of "Anet will buff the new warrior spec multiple times to balance out the handicap of having to stand completely still, but not fix the other handicapped specs that would require far less effort" was on the table. 

Edited August 16, 2022 by Azure The Heartless.3261

[Sahne.6950]

On 8/16/2022 at 7:54 AM, Trevor Boyer.6524 said:

he spams 2 or 3 AS at me and it hits with a burst that is on par with if an opponent Soulbeast running my same build were to Sic Em One Wolf Pack Rapid Fire me.

  You said that 2-3x Artillery slash is the equivalent of a sicem+owp+Rapidfire!

I said that even 3 Artillery slashes will be less damage than a sicem+owp+RF.

Then you start you glorious comparison, where you talk about 3-4 seconds "deathbursts" thinking you made a point....

10 hours ago, Trevor Boyer.6524 said:

, I was able to do 3 to 4 second death bursts on a standard Bladesworn that would bring the indestructible golem from 100% health down to 65%

10 hours ago, Trevor Boyer.6524 said:

a single Sic Em OWP Rapid Fire will bring the golem from 100% to around 75%

Do you see how everything youve done has nothing to do with the initial claim? i never said that Soulbeast can "cleanly Out-DPS" or whatever you are naming it in your textwall.

You said: 2-3x AS is the same Damage as a full sicem+owp+Rf combo.

i said: That is not true...

Test 2-3x AS against a golem and then sicem+owp+rf, then you would have a point... but your "Deathbursts" have nothing to do with what you originally said.

Edited August 17, 2022 by Sahne.6950

[CalmTheStorm.2364]

I agree that the rapid fire part of artillery slash is toxic/OP.  However, a few notes:

 

1)dmg is HEAVILY dependent on might. You need at least 10 might to feel like your hit means anything, and closer to 20-25 to be doing the crazy numbers we've seen (up to 5k in some cases)--that, or you need a squishy target w/o protection with a bunch of vuln or high Fierce as Fire stacks.

 

2.) Artillery slash is the lion's share of the gunsaber offense. Cyclone trigger is alright, but it's best in melee range, has fewer charges, and can't be used rapid fire. Blooming Fire is absolutely garbage.  If you nerf AS without any compensation, you're going to totally screw over BS's offense. 

 

Solutions:

1) add 1s CD to artillery slash. This stops the spamming/ death combos

 

2) buff blooming fire (should have a total coeff of 2.0 like Dragons Roar with 6 charges). Also boost its range to 240. This shifts the focus of BS's damage to a highly telegraphed melee attack, which is a lot easier to play around. 

[Trevor Boyer.6524]

2 hours ago, Sahne.6950 said:

You said that 2-3x Artillery slash is the equivalent of a sicem+owp+Rapidfire!

No, I said it was "on par with" and what I meant by that was "in the same ballpark" of other dangerous bursts such as a coordinated power shatter as example. Careful with misrepresenting quotes. You're getting yourself all in a tussle over nothing.

2 hours ago, Sahne.6950 said:

I said that even 3 Artillery slashes will be less damage than a sicem+owp+RF.

Yeah it was pretty literal when you wrote it the first time. I gotcha.

2 hours ago, Sahne.6950 said:

Do you see how everything youve done has nothing to do with the initial claim?

Azure, Terror, and Lan, had a respectful discussion with me in this thread and explained that there was a skill split in pvp for LRS which I was unaware of when I was trying to compare LRS to AS. That was all that needed to be said and it ended that discussion. I then began a 2nd discussion based off of tests that I ran today, where I said that "I felt AS was dealing too much damage too quickly" and that I had found many ways to land bursts in the course of about 4 seconds that are 100% as strong as Sic Em Soulbeast bursts. Remember, at this point I am discussing not just Sic Em OWP Rapid Fire vs. 3x AS, but 4s bursts in general.

Understand that the first discussion ended bud, and then a second discussion began. That's why the second discussion had nothing to do with the initial claim because the second discussion was about 4s bursts in general, not just Rapid Fire vs. 3x AS.

2 hours ago, Sahne.6950 said:

i never said that Soulbeast can "cleanly Out-DPS" or whatever you are naming it in your textwall.

I never said that you said that. You're inwardly projecting your own assumptions unto yourself. I don't think a single other forum user would have read what I said and even thought that I was referring to any of your statements in any way. I'm pretty sure most of them have beyond a 3rd grade reading comprehension and understood that I was no longer comparing RF to 3x AS, but rather full 4s bursts to full 4s bursts, because I literally stated this in the writing.

2 hours ago, Sahne.6950 said:

You said: 2-3x AS is the same Damage as a full sicem+owp+Rf combo.

Ok Sahne we're way past that. That was the first discussion that ended almost 24 hours ago now. I then began a 2nd discussion that was about comparing BS burst potential in general to Sic Em Soulbeast. The conversation about Rapid Fire vs. 3x AS ended, and a 2nd discussion began about combo'd Bladesworn 4s bursts vs. combo'd Soulbeast bursts.

2 hours ago, Sahne.6950 said:

Test 2-3x AS against a golem and then sicem+owp+rf, then you would have a point... but your "Deathbursts" have nothing to do with what you originally said.

Again, I said: "It was on par with" and I meant that as "in the same ballpark" of other coordinated bursts such as a power shatter, and it is. I never said "iT wAs ThE sAmE eXaCt DaMaGe" so knock it off man.

It's kind of ape when you try to twist other's words so you can create arguments around misrepresented quotes, not gonna lie.

To clear up this up for you, a full cast of Sic EM OWP Rapid Fire will drop the inde golem from 100% to anywhere between 77% and 75% depending on how the hits land. A prepped 3x AS will drop the inde golem from 100% to anywhere from 84% to 86%.

The only difference is that Rapid Fire takes 1 and 1/4th seconds to cast, where 3x AS takes only 3/4ths second to cast.

The Rapid Fire will deal more damage with the full cast but in terms of actual DPS, the 3x AS is actually dealing as much damage as Rapid Fire, but the AS ends earlier at 3/4ths second whereas the RF cast extends for 1 and 1/4th. The AS strikes are landing 5% damage to the golem on each strike, on average, with 1/4th second animations. If the AS somehow had 2x more charges to make for the 3/4ths second 3x AS spam go to 1 and 1/4th second 5x AS spam, it would drop the inde golem to 75% in the exact same amount of time as the Rapid Fire would drop the inde golem to 75%.

So in a way, the AS spam is actually dealing the exact same "damage per second" as the Sic Em OWP Rapid Fire, it just ends earlier. But you actually can fill in the missing 2x AS to keep up with Rapid Fire, with Blooming Fire, Cyclone Trigger, or DT, and this burst will pretty much do the same thing as 5x AS for that 1 and 1/4th second burst potential to land nearly the exact same damage output as Sic Em OWP Rapid Fire.

But I know you're the type of guy who's going to look for ways to misrepresent everything I said, strawman me, toss a red herring for distraction, and look for some way to make it look like I'm wrong, so let me go ahead and stream this for you. This way we can INB4 you stir up another logical fallacy circus act again.

 

Enjoy - GW2 - Forum - Compare RF Burst to BS Burst - Twitch

 

 

 

Edited August 17, 2022 by Trevor Boyer.6524

[Sahne.6950]

16 minutes ago, Trevor Boyer.6524 said:

Understand that the first discussion ended bud, and then a second discussion began

i still dont understand where this:

"Azure, Terror, and Lan, had a respectful discussion with me in this thread and explained that there was a skill split in pvp for LRS which I was unaware of when I was trying to compare LRS to AS. That was all that needed to be said and it ended that discussion"

has anything to do with you saying that AS hits just as hard as a ranger longbowburst....

i still dont understand where exactly the "discussion" ended... and suddenly its about 4 second burstwindows, and what you said earlier doesnt matter anymore...

 

" full cast of Sic EM OWP Rapid Fire will drop the inde golem from 100% to anywhere between 77% and 75% depending on how the hits land. A prepped 3x AS will drop the inde golem from 100% to anywhere from 84% to 86%. "

 

but atleast you admitted that what you were saying is wrong.

 

Edited August 17, 2022 by Sahne.6950

[Trevor Boyer.6524]

6 minutes ago, Sahne.6950 said:

 

i still dont understand where exactly the "discussion" ended... and suddenly its about 4 second burstwindows, and what you said earlier doesnt matter anymore...

 

" full cast of Sic EM OWP Rapid Fire will drop the inde golem from 100% to anywhere between 77% and 75% depending on how the hits land. A prepped 3x AS will drop the inde golem from 100% to anywhere from 84% to 86%. "

 

but atleast you admitted that what you were saying is wrong.

 

Now see, people should get warn points for being rude enough to do what you just did there.

You quoted that and then acted like I didn't just prove those numbers to be correct in the stream demo I just posted.

When I admitted I was wrong, it was about the UI tooltip possibly showing inaccurate information.

The numbers I gave you about how Rapid Fire bursts, AS bursts, and 4s bursts in general land, were completely accurate and you can see this by clicking on the demo link and watching it. Quick note though, the Rapid Fires in that demo were randomly hitting super low. During the test I ran earlier the 75% to 77% was far far more common, like 20x in a row common. I dunno what happened there in the demo with an 80% RF but w/e, just know that this is an unusual number and the RFs do usually hit around 3% to 4% harder.

Sahne I don't understand if you're serious or if you're trolling sometimes. If you are actually being serious, you need to back off a bit and stop trying to make people look wrong when they are clearly visibly entirely 100% correct in what they are saying. The video demo is posted my man, the facts are there for everyone to see.

But w/e continue on, do what you want to do, I'm done with this now after making the demo. 

Edited August 17, 2022 by Trevor Boyer.6524

[Sahne.6950]

16 minutes ago, Trevor Boyer.6524 said:

 

You quoted that and then acted like I didn't just prove those numbers to be correct in the stream demo I just posted.

 

The margins between 75% and 84% is huge tho... this shows that the damage is NOT on par...

golem has ~79k hp. 25% from that is 19800 Damage from the rangerburst.

while 84% left means 16% from 79k which is 12700.

THAT IS ROUGHLY 43% MORE DAMAGE!!!

your demo doesnt mean anything, if you estimate 43% more damage as "in the same ballpark".

Edited August 17, 2022 by Sahne.6950

[CalmTheStorm.2364]

Thread getting derailed... Stay on target, friends!