The actual balance of Mechanist

[Obtena.7952]

1 minute ago, Blood Red Arachnid.2493 said:

 

 

Don't get your point ... the question isn't why NOT make it do 46K. The justification to make a change like that isn't simply because it's not like the thing you think it's not.  

Edited September 14, 2022 by Obtena.7952

[Kuma.1503]

16 minutes ago, Blood Red Arachnid.2493 said:

 Finally, if there is nothing wrong with mechanist invalidating other professions because of its high damage + ease of use combination, then there's nothing wrong with other professions being invalidated by super high damage + difficult use.  People can play how they want, regardless if Ele does 46k DPS or not, so why not make Ele do 46k DPS?  At least then players can play what they want, and also be fairly compensated for their difficulties at the exact same time.  Clearly it is superior to what we have now.  

This honestly. Who cares if the 0.1% start stacking eles, untamed, bladesworn, ect. for speed clears. The average joe would still be better off playing something easier because of the set-up and mental strain it takes to reach that benchmark in the first place. 

Edited September 14, 2022 by Kuma.1503

[Blood Red Arachnid.2493]

 

8 minutes ago, Obtena.7952 said:

Don't get your point ... the question isn't why NOT make it do 46K. The justification to make a change like that isn't simply because it's not like the thing you think it's not.  

 

21 minutes ago, Blood Red Arachnid.2493 said:

Of course it is absurd.  Other professions currently don't have fair compensation, as I have outlined above.  Also, professions and their elite specs deserve to be fairly compensated for their difficulties with or without the existence of Mechanist.  Cosmic Justice didn't start with EoD, after all.  Finally, if there is nothing wrong with mechanist invalidating other professions because of its high damage + ease of use combination, then there's nothing wrong with other professions being invalidated by super high damage + difficult use.  People can play how they want, regardless if Ele does 46k DPS or not, so why not make Ele do 46k DPS?  At least then players can play what they want, and also be fairly compensated for their difficulties at the exact same time.  Clearly it is superior to what we have now.  

 

[infant.8175]

first of all its strong considering that the main chunk of its dps is rifle autos and rifle 2 and it being ranged and loaded with cc from the mech compared to higher dps builds that has a convoluted rotation that has a huge dps loss on mistakes made and a high skill ceiling to maintain it and even a dps loss on attempting a cc and most of the time bench marks dont reflect the cc aspect of an encounter or the benefits of being ranged.

[SoftFootpaws.9134]

1 hour ago, Obtena.7952 said:

Except mechanist doesn't invalidate it. Those other specs are still available for people to play how they want and still be successful doing it.  

I can tell by reading this that you haven't played an Elementalist in end-game content and know what its like to repeatedly die from low health and armor because you pressed one wrong button or had an incorrect timing in your 500 step rotation while simultaneously accomplishing very little compared to some guy with double your stats just gunslinging with his autoattack like an action movie superhero (whose probably using action cam on top of it) and being the #2 top DPS behind the Bladesworn.

 

Its the difference between one player existing in an MMORPG and the other existing in Quake.

Edited September 14, 2022 by Mariyuuna.6508

[Obtena.7952]

39 minutes ago, Mariyuuna.6508 said:

I can tell by reading this that you haven't played an Elementalist in end-game content and know what its like to repeatedly die from low health and armor because you pressed one wrong button while accomplishing very little compared to some guy with double your stats gunslinging with his autoattack like an action movie superhero whose probably using action cam on top of it.

That speaks directly to my point ... I've died plenty of times in endgame content on hard to play builds, but not because that has anything to do with how easy my team mates builds were to play. The difference here is that I don't see the value of attributing my success or failure to the builds other people play while you seem to attribute your value directly to it. Why? Because I understand that being successful in this game is primarily related to player skill, class and encounter knowledge, not their build. 

The value you place on builds and in particular those that OTHER people use is not a problem Anet has to fix for you; the options are already there to address that. Play with people that don't use builds that diminish your value ... or change your perspective on how the play the game. 

Edited September 14, 2022 by Obtena.7952

[Sansar.1302]

46 minutes ago, Obtena.7952 said:

That speaks directly to my point ... I've died plenty of times in endgame content on hard to play builds, but not because that has anything to do with how easy my team mates builds were to play. The difference here is that I don't see the value of attributing my success or failure to the builds other people play while you seem to attribute your value directly to it. Why? Because I understand that being successful in this game is primarily related to player skill, class and encounter knowledge, not their build. 

The value you place on builds and in particular those that OTHER people use is not a problem Anet has to fix for you; the options are already there to address that. Play with people that don't use builds that diminish your value ... or change your perspective on how the play the game. 

This argument fail for me as i play  guild wars 2 is mainly for the  competative in the  game ( WvW and Spvp )

[the krytan assassin.9235]

Just don't bother to argue with obtena, he's proven on alot of balance topics that he has 0 clue how balance works and will do anything to defend the current meta. Given the like/dislike ratio and forum topics its clear that a majority of the players consider the current state of dps mech as a problem.  

Some people simply choose to remain in their own echo chamber and will to anything to defend their own point of view. 

[Obtena.7952]

1 hour ago, Sansar.1302 said:

This argument fail for me as i play  guild wars 2 is mainly for the  competative in the  game ( WvW and Spvp )

Sure .. for competitive aspects, OP'ed specs are a problem. That's not my point though right? Unless I'm wrong, the main complains about mech aren't in competitive modes. If they are, that's every bit a problem as any other OP'ed spec that has existed in those modes. 

 

Edited September 14, 2022 by Obtena.7952

[Blood Red Arachnid.2493]

1 minute ago, the krytan assassin.9235 said:

Just don't bother to argue with obtena, he's proven on alot of balance topics that he has 0 clue how balance works and will do anything to defend the current meta. Given the like/dislike ratio and forum topics its clear that a majority of the players consider the current state of dps mech as a problem.  

Some people simply choose to remain in their own echo chamber and will to anything to defend their own point of view. 

I've found Obtena to be quite useful to argue with.  Not for the purposes of convincing Obtena, mind you, but because he tends to act as a voice for all of the game developers.  See, his dedicated adherence to the status quo is a mirror that reflects the ideas that created the status quo in the first place.  The developers don't openly discuss their thoughts on the matter, but in private they do hold the very same ideas Obtena is expressing here.  The leaks have proven this.  Ultimately, the people we need to convince the most are the ones in charge, and this is difficult because those people are both sure of themselves and unwilling to cooperate with us.

Honestly, part of me thinks Obtena holds views opposite of what he's arguing for.  I'm not convinced all of this isn't some form of satire, where he dances in straw to satirize the silent throughs the devs hold.  Remember: several developers looked at what the game's balance would be like with all these changes and resoundly proclaimed "this is fine."

[Doctor Hide.6345]

     So, I have been quiet on this for awhile now since the whole balance patch thing came out, but I think I am ready to speak my mind on it. I think the changes to rifle and actual mech are a good thing and a proper direction for the game to head when it comes to balance and theme. For a long time, this game has suffered from well kitten gun design, so the moment they actually make a meta level Gunslinger people lose their mind like it is the end of the world. I will list examples here by what I mean:

-Deadeye Rifle- Good in concept, but the lack of mobility kills it in most pve fights. I know some raid bosses it is good, but for the majority of PvE fights with tons movement it stinks.

-Engi P/P- These are a cluster mess of design and need a rework like the rifle.

-Thief P/P- These also need a rework after all these years like the rifle.

-Harbi pistol- This one is actually ok since it is newer, so I think they designed it to be good with the rifle stuff in mind a head of time.

-mesmer pistol- I don't really consider this one a gunslinger pistol and more a magical one for what it is does, so I am fine with it.

 

As for the question of difficulty, that shouldn't matter here at all. It doesn't matter if mechanist  is easier to play and more reliable than other specs and classes. A lot of people like the mechanist as is, so crying for nerfs when there is nothing wrong with having a reliable Gunslinger like build which the game has needed for awhile just feels wrong to me. You should stop comparing your efforts to other people and just play want you want regardless of what others are saying or playing. I couldn't care less that your elementalist requires more work to play. That is a non factor here. And if it really bugs you that much, then maybe you should ask for changes for it to be more reliable like the mechanist. Maybe all classes should have at least one reliable elite that functions on the same scale as the mechanist to make things fair for everyone if people really can't accept a reliable gunslinger.

 

Enough of my rabbling now. I just wanted to say my piece on this matter finally.

[anbujackson.9564]

13 hours ago, bossmitch.8037 said:

 

This is an "elitist" thinking. They tried this formula and made raids exclusive to die hards and try hards. Groups should be tested how they handled the mechanics not how much they memorized the rotations. Of course, the advantage of those who got solid rotations is faster clears. That's given. But to make it harder, nah, this is no-no and deterred new players and vets alike to end game content which they also paid as much as the die hards and try hards

I am sorry but you dont get it.

I dont need to memorize my rotation, if I clear bosses with a 5 button rotation so fast that mechanics are skipped left and right. Damage is too high so only the newest content can keep up.

I dont need to care about every mechanic because support and utility completely nullify them. Boon output keeps increasing. I seriously think its awful. If you keep failing mechanics, your support shouldnt be able to carry the group through. 

So you want to keep buffing so that even the biggest "noob" can clear content no matter what? Yeah no thanks. Casual players on mech completely outdpsing similar skilled players on other specs by just autoattacking is not ok. The game doesnt need more stuff like that.

 

[Obtena.7952]

16 hours ago, the krytan assassin.9235 said:

Just don't bother to argue with obtena, he's proven on alot of balance topics that he has 0 clue how balance works and will do anything to defend the current meta. Given the like/dislike ratio and forum topics its clear that a majority of the players consider the current state of dps mech as a problem.  

Some people simply choose to remain in their own echo chamber and will to anything to defend their own point of view. 

Maybe people should think more about what I have to say instead of  standing around high fiving themselves for all their amazing game balance ideas then wondering why Anet doesn't listen to them. Maybe THEY need to listen to Anet, figuratively speaking. Funny how you think that 'having a clue about how balance works' has some direct relation to how balancing ACTUALLY does work in GW2. This isn't a defense of my personal POV of how the game should work ... it's a defense for how I see the game actually working. Perhaps if people did more thinking with the same approach, they would also have a better idea of why their amazing balancing ideas don't matter. 

Edited September 15, 2022 by Obtena.7952

[draxynnic.3719]

7 hours ago, Obtena.7952 said:

Don't get your point ... the question isn't why NOT make it do 46K. The justification to make a change like that isn't simply because it's not like the thing you think it's not.  

I'm presuming that the implied alternative question is "why make it 46K"?

The answer is that, as per some recent announcements, the target should be based around what the typical player is capable of in a typical encounter, not what a Snowcrows member who's spent hours perfecting the rotation can pull off against a stationary golem. A large part of the problem with past balancing - and ArenaNet have acknowledged that this was a mistake, they just haven't had time to act on that acknowledgement - was that builds were balanced based on their maximum potential (that 40k cap which anything that breached would get nerfhammered) and not what people were actually achieving.

So let's say that we consider that the average player being able to get rifle metanist damage fairly easily is regarded as desirable. Unless we want to maintain the current status quo where metanist alone is over 30% of the raid population, that suggests that other DPS builds should be able to get roughly that damage in the hands of a typical player. This, however, naturally means that builds that are complex enough that the typical player isn't going to reach the benchmark at the golem, let alone in a real combat, are going to bench a bit higher. For interest, if, hypothetically, we were to push the top elementalist power build so that it could match power metanist in the hands of a typical player in a typical fight, that's likely to push the Snowcrows golem benchmark well above 40k, with the difference essentially being the buffer between perfect rotations in ideal circumstances, and typical performance in realistic scenario.

Now that we have build sites like Hardstuck that aim to cater more to regular players rather than top speedclearers, I think it's better for the game overall to allow the speedclearers to have some professions that are better than others when played correctly, rather than the current situation where everything is balanced according to what the speedclearers can do, so the successful builds are those that can get close to that benchmark with minimum effort on the player's part.

Edited September 15, 2022 by draxynnic.3719

[Tails.9372]

2 hours ago, draxynnic.3719 said:

the target should be based around what the typical player is capable of in a typical encounter

If they would really balance to "what the average player is capable of doing with them" then we're in for a bunch of rather nonsensical nerfs while many things various people deem to be "problematic" would be left completely untouched. What was it? The performance of a "top player" is usually about 10 times greater to what the actual average is. When talking about "the average player" many people are not actually referring to the average player but to what they see as average in their circles which is still far above average when looking at the playerbase as a whole.

2 hours ago, draxynnic.3719 said:

Now that we have build sites like Hardstuck that aim to cater more to regular players rather than top speedclearers

That's just the thing, their builds are not aiming at "regular players" but at what they think regular players should be able to handle and while this might still hold true when it comes to the "more casual side of an already rather "hardcore" part of the playerbase" they are still nothing an actual average player could get that much value out of unless he "tries to" which most people simply don't want to bother with.

Edited September 15, 2022 by Tails.9372

[Infusion.7149]

Well Josh Davis specifically stated they are looking at power mechanist. Teapot thinks it will end up 32K or something I think (see PVE tier list posted recently). His other S-tier "pure DPS" are virtuoso , spectre, mirage, and scourge. Hizen's SS tier openworld PVE specs are mechanist, scourge, and mirage.

Remember scourge used to be 28K, buffed to 37K or so and now is ~35K after the banner and spirit changes. I would think that rifle mech is going to end up below melee ranged power specs.

What I think could happen with respect to catalyst is the skill ceiling will be dropped, possibly by making the orbs on hammer 3 pulsing instead of projectile ; empowered empowerment being per stack instead of all or nothing, and maybe they will finally given in with respect to energy as a resource since the jade sphere has cooldowns already. I don't think catalyst is getting 46K DPS ever but I do expect consistency to increase (see how they nerfed soulcleave summit and one wolf pack to have longer duration , more damage, and a higher damage interval). It doesn't seem like Arenanet is interested in altering the range on hammer but I do hope the autoattack nerfs are reverted since the top players that do benchmarks only do a few autos and don't auto that much meaning the skill gap is very high.

Edited September 15, 2022 by Infusion.7149

[Yellow Rainbow.6142]

why only nerf mech? Drop all dps to max 15k. after all that's what needed to clear raids in this game. 200/s for auto attackers and 15k max for perfect players.

All these power creep are making my achievement from 3-4 years ago, non existent. Remember the days where you had to do green in VG? Also, Wall on Gorse? And, how can you forget all the crying and kicking in squad when run fails which happened frequently.

yeah, new raiders don't even know there is wall in Gorsoval.

 

[Obtena.7952]

12 hours ago, draxynnic.3719 said:

I'm presuming that the implied alternative question is "why make it 46K"?

The answer is that, as per some recent announcements, the target should be based around what the typical player is capable of in a typical encounter, not what a Snowcrows member who's spent hours perfecting the rotation can pull off against a stationary golem. A large part of the problem with past balancing - and ArenaNet have acknowledged that this was a mistake, they just haven't had time to act on that acknowledgement - was that builds were balanced based on their maximum potential (that 40k cap which anything that breached would get nerfhammered) and not what people were actually achieving.

So let's say that we consider that the average player being able to get rifle metanist damage fairly easily is regarded as desirable. Unless we want to maintain the current status quo where metanist alone is over 30% of the raid population, that suggests that other DPS builds should be able to get roughly that damage in the hands of a typical player. This, however, naturally means that builds that are complex enough that the typical player isn't going to reach the benchmark at the golem, let alone in a real combat, are going to bench a bit higher. For interest, if, hypothetically, we were to push the top elementalist power build so that it could match power metanist in the hands of a typical player in a typical fight, that's likely to push the Snowcrows golem benchmark well above 40k, with the difference essentially being the buffer between perfect rotations in ideal circumstances, and typical performance in realistic scenario.

Now that we have build sites like Hardstuck that aim to cater more to regular players rather than top speedclearers, I think it's better for the game overall to allow the speedclearers to have some professions that are better than others when played correctly, rather than the current situation where everything is balanced according to what the speedclearers can do, so the successful builds are those that can get close to that benchmark with minimum effort on the player's part.

Right so one interpretation here isn't that what mechanist does in the hands of the average player is the problem. It's what EVERYTHING else does in the hands of the average player is relatively garbage.

In otherwords, I'm going to propose that we should have MORE LI builds performing at a level where they can feel comfortable joining any team without feeling inadequate. Inclusion is the goal here. If Anet gives people more builds that are 'raid-relevant' to a minimal performance threshold ... more people participate in endgame team content. 

Edited September 15, 2022 by Obtena.7952

[draxynnic.3719]

12 hours ago, Tails.9372 said:

If they would really balance to "what the average player is capable of doing with them" then we're in for a bunch of rather nonsensical nerfs while many things various people deem to be "problematic" would be left completely untouched. What was it? The performance of a "top player" is usually about 10 times greater to what the actual average is. When talking about "the average player" many people are not actually referring to the average player but to what they see as average in their circles which is still far above average when looking at the playerbase as a whole.

That's just the thing, their builds are not aiming at "regular players" but at what they think regular players should be able to handle and while this might still hold true when it comes to the "more casual side of an already rather "hardcore" part of the playerbase" they are still nothing an actual average player could get that much value out of unless he "tries to" which most people simply don't want to bother with.

Naturally, the one time I forget to write out "the typical player who plays raids/strikes/fractals/etc", someone jumps down my throat with a strawman.

Those people who are doing 1/10th of the benchmarks probably don't care all that much about the meta in the first place (although many of them probably have figured out 'metanist good' by now), and there's going to be a fair amount of pressure for them to get a bit better if and when they do start getting interested in endgame content.

 

1 hour ago, Obtena.7952 said:

Right so one interpretation here isn't that what mechanist does in the hands of the average player is the problem. It's what EVERYTHING else does in the hands of the average player is relatively garbage.

In otherwords, I'm going to propose that we should have MORE LI builds performing at a level where they can feel comfortable joining any team without feeling inadequate. Inclusion is the goal here. If Anet gives people more builds that are 'raid-relevant' to a minimal performance threshold ... more people participate in endgame team content. 

Basically, yeah. What metanist has demonstrated is the stark contrast between theoretical performance and practical performance, where metanist manages to have the two be much closer together than other builds.

Which makes it a good opportunity for the developers to decide how much damage they want the typical raider to be doing, balance rifle metanist around that point, and then try to get it so that other professions all have builds that are roughly as good as that in the hands of the typical raider. 

[Kuma.1503]

Just an interesting thing to note. 

For all the talk about Rifle mech easily hitting its benchmark in real fights, I almost never see rifle mechs hitting their benchmark dps. 

In raids, actual DPS tends to be between 18-28k for Mech players.

In fractals, actual DPS fluctuates a lot depending on a variety of factors. If your group is stacking rifle mechs or firebrands (which is common) the lower number of unique condis causes their damage to fall off significantly, and the mechs tend to get out damaged by the firebrands. 

If the group has a lot of unique condis, i see up to ~33k DPS on fights with short phases, and your average pug tends to set around 25k DPS. However, this is around what I see your average firebrand or virtuoso pull in a CM run, and firebrands  often climb to the top of the charts in cleave situations because they scale extremely hard with extra targets. 

A big reason for Mechs DPS drop off might be due to mech player's tendency to rely on their range advanage too much and not stack on the group.

This is a quadruple whammy to their DPS because they lose their melee range modifiers like High Caliber, blunderbuss does less damage, grenade RNG can troll at larger distances, and they can miss out on boons.

Like all classes, very few have actually perfected their rotation. They either don't stow grenade kit fast enough after casting shapnel grenade, they're not swapping to nade kit every 6 seconds and losing out on that extra damage (too busy camping rifle), they're not actually utilizing any list on which skills to prioritize and are just hitting buttons as they light up, or they're one of those AA only mechs. 

Either way, if either condis on boss are low, or you have one of the above players in your group, it's quite common to out DPS a rifle mech, and I will frequently even on the meta-defining power catalyst build. 

I will say however, in meta events when you have 40+ people slapping one boss, it's not uncommon to see every condi in the game on the boss, and this will increase their max single target benchmark well into the 40k range, meaning your average player on mech starts to look like a god. 

 

This is simply my observation as someone who does daily CM fractals, the occasional strike CM, and raids every week. 

 

Edited September 15, 2022 by Kuma.1503

[draxynnic.3719]

On 9/16/2022 at 1:32 AM, Kuma.1503 said:

 

A big reason for Mechs DPS drop off might be due to mech player's tendency to rely on their range advanage too much and not stack on the group.

Wouldn't surprise me. I believe someone benched rifle metanist simply autoattacking (and setting the mech to autocast) at somewhere around 26k (with all boons and all conditions on the boss). So if someone's getting significantly below that, either they're doing something that's actually a DPS loss compared to just autoattacking, or the problem is something other than their rotation.

And it's very easy, when you have a ranged build, to forget that you still want to stack for boons.

[Infusion.7149]

CMC stated that mechanist isn't going to have ferocity inherited by the mech anymore if you trait Variable Mass Distributor. The mech will also no longer get aim assisted rockets.

[Kaizz.7306]

On 8/31/2022 at 7:30 AM, the krytan assassin.9235 said:

Their autoattack simply does a ridiculous amount of dps. I personally don't play mechanist, but honestly if i'd played mecha i would be frustrated that skills don't feel impactfull at all since your AA deals 80% of your max achievable dps. 

If a class AA hits 50% more dps then any other specialization with its autoattack there's simply something wrong.

Engi main, i absolutely hate playing mech for this reason. It's one thing if the rotation is smooth and not overly complicated, like PHolo. PMech is too simple. I don't play ranger for the reason of not liking pet classes, because a lot of times the pets are just too strong, and you're left just supporting the pet. That's what's happened now, it's just not a fun or engaging design for a class.

[Lynx.9058]

listen, I get that the big bad piano-keyboard DPS players are feeling their Epeens threatened because there's a new kid on the block that can put out reliable damage with an easier rotation, but not everyone playing this game is interested in accelerating their development of carpal tunnel just to be able to function in most content.

Speaking as an older player, I don't give a rat's kitten about leaderboards and benchmarks or pvp/wvw, especially if trying to do those things leaves my hands hurting for a week.  There's absolutely nothing wrong with having a class that caters to casual players, in fact it's probably good for the game's health overall because it lends to more people playing, not less.

The only people throwing a fit here are those whose sense of self worth is tied to how difficut or complex their rotation is.  Get over yourselves.

[WhimsicalPacifist.2943]

Joined Team Mech from an Ele and it's glorious.  No more delicate +40 step rotations balanced against immobile golems.  Pew Pew while drinking tea leisurely at range (it's nice having a functional ranged weapon).

 

The problem lies not with Mechanist but rather that 67% are not running Mechanist.  Do we need to do recruiting drives?

Greetings Good Sir, have you heard of the Testament of Golem and Rifle?  I have a 10 step (condensed) tract detailing all you need to do to succeed in life.