ARC DPS (and all damage meters) are ruining the game

[Rendalmj.3152]

Wow so just now i was doing daily strike and this guy is telling me "my dps is whack" and "go back to fishing" yes i have my immortal fishing title .. 

 

yeah i need to lay down now. not going to do anymore strikes or group content for awhile

[Linken.6345]

46 minutes ago, Woof.8246 said:

 

Yeah , that why we limit the dps meter in istance group , so that mentality is contained there

Before i get my degree , we prevent this mentality from occuring in our game  . With an official Meter , that is not visible on OW (many don't care what happens in the instances , theyare beyond saving ....hence that why i want a new 3rd community to exist with auto-lfg)

So how do them seeing your dps in open world affect you in any way they cant kick you out of the map mate.

[Woof.8246]

40 minutes ago, Linken.6345 said:

So how do them seeing your dps in open world affect you in any way they cant kick you out of the map mate.

We teach people what is the acceptable behavor in each mode and segregate them .

If they want to see each other dps and compare it , go in any instance content , or  in WoW/FF14 .

The OW community should not welcome that kind of people . But we can play along (page 6 -last post)  in OW

Edited October 12, 2022 by Woof.8246

[Linken.6345]

7 minutes ago, Woof.8246 said:

We teach people what is the acceptable behavor in each mode and segregate them .

If they want to see each other dps and compare it , go in any instance content , or  in WoW/FF14 .

The OW community should not welcome that kind of people . But we can play along (page 6 -last post)  in OW

I think those people will be happy about this segerigation and complete meta events + hear the crying that everything is to hard and failing from the other side to be honest.

[Woof.8246]

41 minutes ago, Linken.6345 said:

I think those people will be happy about this segerigation and complete meta events + hear the crying that everything is to hard and failing from the other side to be honest.

We are kinda used to be alone and eat dirt , from the instance modes , when they order us to "create our own party" or "join the training guilds" , or "you don't need to do it to enjoy the game"

After a while, dirt taste good : )

Edited October 12, 2022 by Woof.8246

[Fozzie.5370]

On 9/5/2022 at 4:48 PM, SolidTx.3249 said:

- prove me wrong

 

-- the biggest issues in end game are balance related

-- there are far more "viable" classes that never get picked in LFG because they arent the snowcrows perfect meta build

-- the community is like lemmings and indexes on the classes that are perceived as making the content the easiest it can be; regardless of truth

-- ARC dps and the like have driven the community to a caustic state - where end game is not friendly to players trying to learn raiding and other end game content like high end fractals

-- if ANET really wanted to make end game more viable for all players - they would not allow any DPS meters - and this would improve end game for most players

-- the above would improve the game overall and the reputation of the community

OP: Your thread title should actually have read>>>

ARC DPS (and all damage meters) are *enhancing the game

My scenario:

1) I started game seriously on Necro

2) Had zero clue about builds, gear or anything

3) Found some dude called Holts on YouTube

4) Built my 1st ascended set around Holts: Solo Reaper WvW Roaming guide

5) Proceeded to enter Fractals

6) Was largely unnoticed until I hit T4

7) Got instant kicked after 1st T4 fractal by 4 players from same Guild, without warning or discussion

8.) I PM'd the players that had kicked me: They were very helpful tbf, and said my DPS was lower than their support guy

9) My first question was: How do you know that ? 

10) I had no clue about DPS meters in Gw2 or ARCDPS

11) KEY POINT: As a result of this, I wanted to make sure I was ALWAYS pulling my weight in groups, squads with my DPS, Heals, Support or W/e and to not be a burden on the group, in fact I wanted to try to be the best, become a Commander, and teach others constructively to maximise their own capabilities: Totally not possible without a DPS Meter.

12) Downloaded Arcdps

13) Suddenly dawned on me my build, gear, traits was all maximised for WvW Solo Roaming (thus good sustain), and I stupidly had not changed a thing for Fractals ?!? kitten brain me

14) One of the dudes that kicked me, kindly PM'd me discretize.eu, ofc never heard of that either

15) Rebuilt my gear, stats, traits, trained hard on Raid Golems, perfected my rotations 

16) Re-entered T4 fracs, watched the difference of my own performance on the DPS Meter

17) Never got kicked again from Fractal or Raid group

18) Some months later, bumped into the exact same Guild 4 players in T4 PUG fracs, at this stage I switched to CFB (purely cos I watched the DPS numbers running of other CFB's, told them I was that lame Reaper they had kicked all those months ago, but their advice had changed my game overnight: They even apologised for kicking me, but said they have to do T4 Runs fast to fit RAID in the same evening or other kitten. Came top DPS in the frac run as CFB ( not hard ikr), got befriended by these dudes, and often enter fracs with them for fast clears & CM's: Done in no time.

19) Have you ever tried doing ALL CM Fractals with ALL 5 PLAYERS: Not really paying any attention to their build, traits, gear attributes, role, rotation ?  It's not fun, takes ages, causes more arguments than those that DO use ARCDPS.  Only way to monitor players individual performance is DPS Meter.

19) SCENARIO: All courtesy of ARCDPS.

20) I'd prefer it if Anet implemented in-house DPS Meter ( ofc optional enable/disable function)

Edited October 12, 2022 by Greg.7086

[Astralporing.1957]

1 hour ago, Woof.8246 said:

We teach people what is the acceptable behavor in each mode and segregate them .

If they want to see each other dps and compare it , go in any instance content , or  in WoW/FF14 .

The OW community should not welcome that kind of people . But we can play along (page 6 -last post)  in OW

You do remember, where you said that before creating a solution you should identify the problem first?

You failed to do that. And thus, by proposing a "solution" to a "problem" you thought you identified you are actually on a good way to make things even worse.

Forced segregation is never a good idea. "Teaching acceptable behaviour" through forced mechanic never works either. All those things can accomplish is to just generate even more friction and toxicity.

No, the real issue is not people being able to see each other dps. It never was. And while having people of wildly different skill and playstyle in the same content indeed can be an issue in itself, the real underlying causes of the ArcDPS-related toxicity is twofold:

First, some people simply are kittens. Nothing to be done about this one, i am afraid. Just kick, block, report in especially bad cases,  and move on.

Second cause however is the massive disparity between good and bad builds, and between good and average (and average and bad) players. That is the real cause of all the problems brought up in this thread. If you want to remove/minimize those problems, you have to address that first. Otherwise everything you do will be nothing more than a surface paint at best, and making things worse at worst.

[Firebeard.1746]

My experience is that PuGs care more about experience and KP than playing a "meta" class. The DPS requirements for most encounters are really low compared to theoretical maximums. TL being one of the few exceptions. 

Also, you don't want to play with people that dumb, trust me. I was in a W1 clear with people who thought HAM was a good flak kite, but they failed to realize the terrible range on consistent HAM healing and we were wiping on Sabetha. It's hilarious this group mocked druid on disc when I've cleared it flak kiting on Druid and even healed better. The professions have a wide variety of capabilities that can potentially hard or soft counter many mechanics, particularly on HoT raids, so people who look at an SC build and say "play this" are literally the worst players to play with. You actually got away clean.

I recommend trying to find communities to do stuff with. It's way better than pugs. I've had good pugs, but that's where the garbage in our community plays. 

[Firebeard.1746]

36 minutes ago, Astralporing.1957 said:

Second cause however is the massive disparity between good and bad builds, and between good and average (and average and bad) players. That is the real cause of all the problems brought up in this thread. If you want to remove/minimize those problems, you have to address that first. Otherwise everything you do will be nothing more than a surface paint at best, and making things worse at worst.

I'm not sure if anet has nerfed them at all but both teapot and Muk have made great LI builds with high theoretical output. Anet should support low intensity builds and encourage communities to publish them moving forward. Some of the LI builds perform way better than the average player trying to do an SC build. 

[LONGA.1652]

Tools are nice but not understand why people are advocating DPS meter in open world.  The place was chaotic with  bunch of people who does semi AFK on the world boss.

Its like aggressive hot dog sale pitch on place that doesn't eat pork.

[Astralporing.1957]

2 hours ago, Firebeard.1746 said:

I'm not sure if anet has nerfed them at all but both teapot and Muk have made great LI builds with high theoretical output. Anet should support low intensity builds and encourage communities to publish them moving forward. Some of the LI builds perform way better than the average player trying to do an SC build. 

That's all fine and dandly, but that's still painting over the crumbling foundations. It does not change the gap at all. Remember, that most players have no idea those LI builds even exist - those that do are also the very same players that are likely already knowledgeable of meta ones.

In short, LI builds just make it easier for some of those that already are at the top end of the gap. It does nothing for those at the bottom.

[Ashen.2907]

6 hours ago, Woof.8246 said:

They need specific builds , to do the dirasable dps

No.

[IAmNotMatthew.1058]

6 hours ago, Balgorath.2604 said:

It's absolutely not false.  People get removed from groups for A) not using a specific build and/or B) not pumping out the arbitrary DPS.  

I tend to kick people coming in as "Hi DPS" and compete with the healer in terms of DPS.

[Ashen.2907]

21 minutes ago, Astralporing.1957 said:

LI builds just make it easier for some of those that already are at the top end of the gap. It does nothing for those at the bottom.

Almost all of the people that I know to use LI builds are people who were far from the top of the gap. Struggling in many cases. They went looking for builds that didnt require levels of play beyomd their capability. This, in some cases, meant searching youtube or googling for gw2 builds, and in other cases meant asking guildies for help.

The only people from the top of the gap that I know to use LI builds do so on occasion as a form of a relaxing break from their normal builds.

[Astralporing.1957]

38 minutes ago, Ashen.2907 said:

Almost all of the people that I know to use LI builds are people who were far from the top of the gap. Struggling in many cases.

Notice, that all is relative. You can be doing 50% benchmark, and consider yourself to be struggling, but you'd still be doing five times the damage of an average player.

You don't really need to have a LI build - any decent build will do. And you do not even need to know how to play that build well - practically all of the meta builds (including the "piano" ones), vastly outperform average players with just autoattacking alone.

 

[AliamRationem.5172]

5 hours ago, Woof.8246 said:

We teach people what is the acceptable behavor in each mode and segregate them .

If they want to see each other dps and compare it , go in any instance content , or  in WoW/FF14 .

The OW community should not welcome that kind of people . But we can play along (page 6 -last post)  in OW

Who made you the spokesperson of the open world community?

[Cyninja.2954]

7 hours ago, Rendalmj.3152 said:

Wow so just now i was doing daily strike and this guy is telling me "my dps is whack" and "go back to fishing" yes i have my immortal fishing title .. 

 

yeah i need to lay down now. not going to do anymore strikes or group content for awhile

While I don't condone the behavior of the other party or the way they approached you, have you considered that there might have been something to his claim?

You left out a lot of details.

What was your performance? Were you a few dps off from other players? Or where you one of those "I do 2k dps while everyone else does 20k" players and pretend you count as dps? It makes a huge difference, not in making the behavior you faced acceptable, but in framing the situation.

FYI, if you had been running a dps meter yourself, you could have easily seen if there is/was any merit to the complaint. Again giving you the chance to maybe brush up on your performance before being a liability to a group or worse: getting berated unjustly (which again I disagree with how it was done in this case).

In the end every player is in charge of deciding how much effort they want to put into supporting a group and while some players will be okay with "carrying" the occasional weaker player, eventually you do need some performance to succeed at the encounter.

EDIT:

and just to give an example just in case some players out there still believe this does not apply to them:

https://dps.report/7bty-20221005-201047_trin

That Dragonhunter, yeah that's a dps racing the healers on Mai Trin normal. Given this was a guild run and people didn't want to be toxic, he actually got carried through all 4 EOD strikes (non responsive to any whisper, squad chat or w/e. tbh it might have been a bot). This is a COMMON occurrence with players unfamiliar with instanced content.

Here have one from fractal CMs. The LFG read: 99+98+T4+recs | dps | 5k UFE (again chill guild run filling up):

https://dps.report/Xqar-20221002-205529_skor

That's NOT a support tempest. Now in this case we did politely talk to the guy/girl and told them that while we usually do take players along, this was just a tad to low for that day which they understood and left the group freeing us to fill up with a new dps.

When players on the forums talk about a performance disparity of this magnitude it's NOT hyperbole. If you move into instanced content without ANY preparation, that's where you will be at. The good news: with just a bit of guidance (from guildies, youtube, build sites, etc.) it's easy to triple or quadruple that performance but until players actively decide to improve, this is where they will be stuck at.

Edited October 12, 2022 by Cyninja.2954

[Ashen.2907]

19 minutes ago, Astralporing.1957 said:

Notice, that all is relative. You can be doing 50% benchmark, and consider yourself to be struggling, but you'd still be doing five times the damage of an average player.

You don't really need to have a LI build - any decent build will do. And you do not even need to know how to play that build well - practically all of the meta builds (including the "piano" ones), vastly outperform average players with just autoattacking alone.

 

I used, "struggling," in reference to players who couldn't do 10k dps (more like 5-6k).

[Astralporing.1957]

12 minutes ago, Ashen.2907 said:

I used, "struggling," in reference to players who couldn't do 10k dps (more like 5-6k).

Then the issue was not that the build they used was too complicated for them, but that they had a bad build in general. They did not need a LI build - they needed a build.

I mean, sure, LI build can help increase dps to people that have problems with complicated ones, but just a mere fact of having any decent build already places people up high, among the small minority.

Edited October 12, 2022 by Astralporing.1957

[Ashen.2907]

4 minutes ago, Astralporing.1957 said:

Then the issue was not that the build they used was too complicated for them, but that they had a bad build in general. They did not need a LI build - they needed a build.

Nope.

They had builds, put together for them by more skilled guild members or borrowed from build sites (with assistance and coaching on how the builds work, gearing, etc). Ive lost track of how many hours I spent coaching, tutoring, etc guild members on build/usage. What they lacked was not a build, but rather a build that they could execute effectively in actual play.

Edited October 12, 2022 by Ashen.2907

[Woof.8246]

1 hour ago, Ashen.2907 said:

No.

 

Nope.

They had builds, put together for them by more skilled guild members or borrowed from build sites (with assistance and coaching on how the builds work, gearing, etc). Ive lost track of how many hours I spent coaching, tutoring, etc guild members on build/usage. What they lacked was not a build, but rather a build that they could execute effectively in actual play.

And that highly skill build , should be used in a highly skilled environment .

In OW people should use their build without anyone harashing them .

 

With an official Meter , we can do that and in the end we don't need to use  3rd party tools

Edited October 12, 2022 by Woof.8246

[Ashen.2907]

2 minutes ago, Woof.8246 said:

And that highly skill build , should be used in a highly skilled environment .

In OW people should use their build without anyone harashing them

Relevance = 0.

[Vilin.8056]

6 minutes ago, Woof.8246 said:

And that highly skill build , should be used in a highly skilled environment .

In OW people should use their build without anyone harashing them

Ironically, yet we have the same OW people, constantly coming to threads like this telling us on how the game should be played.

And how we, and the developers should be responsible for their failures,

over and over.

Edited October 12, 2022 by Vilin.8056

[Woof.8246]

Just now, Ashen.2907 said:

Relevance = 0.

In my reply you said  that they didn't need specific build , and now at Astra you are saying "What they lacked was not a build, but rather a build that they could execute effectively in actual play."

[Ashen.2907]

4 minutes ago, Woof.8246 said:

In my reply you said  that they didn't need specific build , and now at Astra you are saying "What they lacked was not a build, but rather a build that they could execute effectively in actual play."

Is this a reading comprehension issue? ESL perhaps? I am not trying to be offensive but it is coming across as if you do not understand what I, and others for that matter, have posted and are having difficulty getting your own point across as well. I ask because I dont want to assume that someone is purposefully misrepresenting what I am saying if it truly is an issue of language barrier.

As to this specific post: there is jo conflict between the two comments you reference. No specific build is necessary and some people do struggle to execute some specific builds.

Edited October 12, 2022 by Ashen.2907