Infusions should also be purchased with currencies instead of only being a rare drop

[captrowdy.9561]

Absolutely not brah. We Don’t need anymore sparkles running around. It’s not like where farming stuff and it being up to RNG for the best inslot weapon or something. It adds to the excitement farming something hoping you’ll get lucky. 

[Gibson.4036]

9 hours ago, Sir Alymer.3406 said:

And if you want the maths:
 

For the sake of simplicity here, I'm going to just assume that the lowest possible price on the wiki for a PvE infusion is the one that can be bought 10x.  And, as far as I know ,the maximum efficiency for farming a map is still only ~40g an hour.  How long would it take someone, like me, to get 1x and then 10x of each infusion?

Let's put this up to 25 hours of playtime a week. 15 of those hours being dedicated to what I said before (+360 gold in a month from material conversion) and fractals being ~15 gold a day.  A month is 28 days (one full lap around the  login rewards). 780 gold in 28 days.  Now the most efficient farm for the next 10 hours means another 400g a week.  This comes out to 1600g a month.  Totals 2,380g a month.

With just farming ingame, how long would it take to get 1 or 10 of a specific infusion?

Infusion / Cost	Time to Get	Days
Chak	Time for 1	26 Days
2200.0714	Time for 10	259 Days
Liquid Aurilium	Time for 1	13 Days
1075	Time for 10	126 Days
Q. Bee	Time for 1	51 Days
4300.8686	Time for 10	506 Days
F. Confetti	Time for 1	46 Days
3910.0001	Time for 10	460 Days
Crystal	Time for 1	18 Days
1499.1337	Time for 10	176 Days
Khan Ur	Time for 1	28 Days
2400.0094	Time for 10	282 Days
Frost Legion	Time for 1	28 Days
2370.39	Time for 10	279 Days
Jorm. L. Eye	Time for 1	16 Days
1378.213	Time for 10	162 Days
Jorm. R. Eye	Time for 1	17 Days
1453.213	Time for 10	171 Days
Prim. L. Eye	Time for 1	16 Days
1379.638	Time for 10	162 Days
Prim. R. Eye	Time for 1	17 Days
1454.638	Time for 10	171 Days
Dragonvoid	Time for 1	105 Days
8888	Time for 10	1046 Days

And what if I just had a job that paid me $7.50 USD an hour?  For the sake of living, I'm going to say only 20% of the income from this is used on the game.  That still comes out to (With the same hours per week and days per month)  to $5,250 usd or $1,050 usd a month to dump.   At current conversion cost (As of today at 2:51 AM UTC) $1 USD = 80 gems = 15g 56s 80c.  This means the monthly income of this min. wage whale is 16,346g 40s.

If you take a peak at the table, and compare the completion times, it shows that whaling out is far faster, easier, and simpler.
 

Infusion / Cost	Time to Get	Days
Chak	Time for 1	4 Days
2200.0714	Time for 10	38 Days
Liquid Aurilium	Time for 1	2 Days
1075	Time for 10	18 Days
Q. Bee	Time for 1	7 Days
4300.8686	Time for 10	74 Days
F. Confetti	Time for 1	7 Days
3910.0001	Time for 10	67 Days
Crystal	Time for 1	3 Days
1499.1337	Time for 10	26 Days
Khan Ur	Time for 1	4 Days
2400.0094	Time for 10	41 Days
Frost Legion	Time for 1	4 Days
2370.39	Time for 10	41 Days
Jorm. L. Eye	Time for 1	2 Days
1378.213	Time for 10	24 Days
Jorm. R. Eye	Time for 1	2 Days
1453.213	Time for 10	25 Days
Prim. L. Eye	Time for 1	2 Days
1379.638	Time for 10	24 Days
Prim. R. Eye	Time for 1	2 Days
1454.638	Time for 10	25 Days
Dragonvoid	Time for 1	15 Days
8888	Time for 10	152 Days

$5,520 / $7.50 = 700 hours

700 hours / 28 days = 25 hours/day

How does your minimum wage whale work 25 hours/day?

 

[andreiblue.8231]

7 hours ago, captrowdy.9561 said:

Absolutely not brah. We Don’t need anymore sparkles running around. It’s not like where farming stuff and it being up to RNG for the best inslot weapon or something. It adds to the excitement farming something hoping you’ll get lucky. 

Why encourage gambling?

[andreiblue.8231]

9 hours ago, Ashen.2907 said:

I understand the desire, but why is it a matter of, "should be," rather than, " I want?"

Cuz most of the community would like that change, the only ones who wouldnt are the market barons hoarding hundreds of them

[Gibson.4036]

I strongly dislike extreme rare drops as a mechanic. It artificially extends content in an unhealthy way.

I think there should always be a path that leads to a guaranteed reward. Making it account bound so people can still win the infusion lottery is a fine compromise, but it’s still unhealthy game design.

[andreiblue.8231]

8 hours ago, Labjax.2465 said:

Just throwing this out there, what about RNG protection kind of thing instead? "as you approach X number of times account completed this meta, your chance of getting this drop steadily increases until it is, after a very high number of completions, guaranteed." But only guaranteed once, after you get the drop once it goes back to default % and stays there for your account forever. Or maybe the % can improve again, but the 2nd time it takes significantly longer to reach the point where it's guaranteed.

The main benefit I see of this approach over "purchased with currencies" is that the knowledge of how far away you are from it stays hidden, unless you're planning on farming gold to straight up buy one from TP or something. The reason I think that may be a benefit in this situation is if they were to make a way to buy chak infusion direct, for example, it would prob be some absolutely depressingly enormous amount of currency to match the rarity and might demotivate people to pursue it at all once it's actually put in perspective for them how rare it is.

As unhealthy as I think this gambling-adjacent super rare infusion drops stuff is, I'm doubtful that it'd still work as a motivator for getting people to play the content if done in the kind of way you suggest and doing so might actually put people off the whole system.

I'm open to if you have any thoughts that counter that way of looking at it.

That's what they did with aurene's gift I think

[Epsilon Indi.2031]

47 minutes ago, Gibson.4036 said:

$5,520 / $7.50 = 700 hours

700 hours / 28 days = 25 hours/day

How does your minimum wage whale work 25 hours/day?

 

Thought I fixed that when I edited, actually.

[MajinSoul.4512]

8 hours ago, captrowdy.9561 said:

Absolutely not brah. We Don’t need anymore sparkles running around. It’s not like where farming stuff and it being up to RNG for the best inslot weapon or something. It adds to the excitement farming something hoping you’ll get lucky. 

Does anyone really farm stuff for the chance of getting lucky? In my 3k hours of playtime I have never seen a single precursor or infusion drop. When they added the infusion to make DE more appealing I just thought to myself "I don't freaking care". Adding stuff that I will never see myself does nothing to make me excited. I'm all for adding ways to slowly but surely obtain these "super rare drops" (outside of farming gold which is the most boring way of obtain stuff ...)

[Gibson.4036]

33 minutes ago, MajinSoul.4512 said:

Does anyone really farm stuff for the chance of getting lucky? In my 3k hours of playtime I have never seen a single precursor or infusion drop. When they added the infusion to make DE more appealing I just thought to myself "I don't freaking care". Adding stuff that I will never see myself does nothing to make me excited. I'm all for adding ways to slowly but surely obtain these "super rare drops" (outside of farming gold which is the most boring way of obtain stuff ...)

I expect most people who actually want the infusion buy with gold, and people who farm the infusion want them to sell for the windfall of gold.

[andreiblue.8231]

41 minutes ago, MajinSoul.4512 said:

Does anyone really farm stuff for the chance of getting lucky? In my 3k hours of playtime I have never seen a single precursor or infusion drop. When they added the infusion to make DE more appealing I just thought to myself "I don't freaking care". Adding stuff that I will never see myself does nothing to make me excited. I'm all for adding ways to slowly but surely obtain these "super rare drops" (outside of farming gold which is the most boring way of obtain stuff ...)

So far I got 1 aurene's gift, one dragon pristine eye (when it was like 8 times more pricey than now) and 1 winter heart's infusion, my account is only 1 year old. I made this account as someone who did get one of those rare drops and not be called someone who is upset about getting them, but I dont think anyone in their right mind would think that any of the infusions is worth 10k gold and there should be ways to get the effect without spending that much gold. Most people who would get the infusion would sell it, very few would want to keep it for the effect.

[Sobx.1758]

10 hours ago, Sir Alymer.3406 said:

Not dodging kitten.  It completely matters what's easier and faster.  Learn basic human psychology and game design.  Players will almost always take the path of least resistance to achieve their goal.  Disprove my maths, please.  Show me how it's the path of least resistance to farm gold and how an overwhelming majority who look like the lightbulb infusion nonsense are the ones farming gold.  Even if I got 5 gold a day, I still wouldn't have enough as people have these other things called 'goals' and there are far more practical things to use gold on than an overpriced  glorified stat infusion.  Things like legendary ar mor, trinkets, ascended equipment, home instance nodes, etc. 

The table clearly demonstrates that it's faster, easier, and the path of least resistance to just buy the the infusions with only 20% of a minimum wage job. (Hint, it's also still lucrative even if you only spend 10% of min wage income on gems)

It's almost like when more people dump gems into the market, the price becomes more appealing to buy gems with gold. 🤔  As if that's by  design, thus balancing out the big gem dumps that happen on occasion from people with more money than time.

"Disprove" what exactly? There's nothing to disprove about the math, lmao. You know there are people that farm up gold (in more than one way), you wrote that yourself. It doesn't need to be "majority", which for some reason you started treating as "if it's minority then it's like it's nobody". This is not how it works.

So you're now easly skipping over the fact that no matter how the gold to gem price swings, it's never enough to be somehow "better to farm gold than to buy gems" time-wise? Convenient, but still wrong. The ratio of gold/gem exchange changes. But it doesn't change that much, so what's the next excuse for the existance of that exchange if -according to you- it "by the rights of basic human psychology and game design" it shouldn't have the right to exist? 🤦‍♂️

10 hours ago, Sir Alymer.3406 said:

Also your argument was "We don't want more lightbubls" and I (and others) countered with "Those guys just whale out to buy their infusions".  You, then, in t urn, decide to pick up on multiple other points I've made in there to try to get me in some sort of fallacy or something else while completely ignoring the point I'm trying to make.  It's whatever though, friend. You do you.

Yup -and just like before it still remain factual that if you want to "grind out an infusion", you can already do it with gold. It also remains factual that your ideas inject bigger quantity of infusions than it currently is. Nothing about that changed. The discussion only slightly pivoted into something else, since you somehow think that people in mmos don't grind gold -or that since it's maybe not the majority, you automatically assume nobody does for some reason? - which is rather obivously wrong.

Edited September 8, 2022 by Sobx.1758

[Zaraki.5784]

Sure but set the price to 100k map currency and 1000g. That will be fair.

[Ashen.2907]

2 hours ago, andreiblue.8231 said:

Cuz most of the community would like that change, the only ones who wouldnt are the market barons hoarding hundreds of them

If you know the thoughts of, "most of the community," then you should be able to name them right? 

[Sobx.1758]

2 hours ago, andreiblue.8231 said:

Wow, rude much? If you actually believe that the people who buy rhose infusions are no lifers who would spend thousands of hours (actually lots more) farming 10000 gold to get a cosmetic effect instead of buying it directly with cash you probably believe most players are like you.

Also I gave a random price, Khan Ur's infusion is kinda ugly imo so i probably wouldnt give even that on it

Wait, which part exactly was rude there? "Stats that came out of thin air"? It just means you completely made them up to reach the conclusion you want. You know it, I know it, everyone else knows it. I don't see that expression as being somehow rude.

This game isn't a month old so people somehow need to grind day in day out, this game is 10 years old. Plenty of time and people do also make that gold ingame. If you want to believe that anyone having more than you in the game -and I'm not even talking about myself btw, even just according to gw2eff I'm not anywhere near the top and yet... 🤷‍♂️- just swipes card or nolifes slapping mobs then you just... don't know a lot about the topic you're trying to touch here.

2 hours ago, Gibson.4036 said:

I think there should always be a path that leads to a guaranteed reward.

Sure, but only for rewards that matter, a few rare cosmetic infusions is not a problem.

Edited September 8, 2022 by Sobx.1758

[Linken.6345]

2 hours ago, andreiblue.8231 said:

That's what they did with aurene's gift I think

One time you can get it after 1000 chests and after that the rest of the 15 boxes are rng.

[Taclism.2406]

13 hours ago, andreiblue.8231 said:

Who said anything about them not being rare drops anymore? For example Khan Ur's infusion can still be a rare drop one while also having an account bound version that costs 1000 chillis and 10000 volatile magic

 The value of said infusions comes from their rarity. If you give an alternative for cosmetic infusions, even if they are "bound to account", it will lower the price of unbound, because they fill the same role and will drive down demand overall (especially with reqs this low). And if all rares drops become worthless, whats even the point of them being rare in the first place

[Sobx.1758]

1 hour ago, MajinSoul.4512 said:

Does anyone really farm stuff for the chance of getting lucky? In my 3k hours of playtime I have never seen a single precursor or infusion drop. When they added the infusion to make DE more appealing I just thought to myself "I don't freaking care". Adding stuff that I will never see myself does nothing to make me excited. I'm all for adding ways to slowly but surely obtain these "super rare drops" (outside of farming gold which is the most boring way of obtain stuff ...)

Check lfg, see there are groups literally called "infusion train" and you have your answer.

[Ashen.2907]

2 hours ago, Gibson.4036 said:

I think there should always be a path that leads to a guaranteed reward

Isn't that what getting gold doing events, etc is though?

The title asks that infusions be purchasable with a currency....and they are, with the most common currency in the game other than Karma.

[disco.9302]

The agreement/disagreement on this topic comes from what kind of player you are:

1 - you farm often and make it a regular activity to generate gold efficiently. In this case, yes you would want the RNG to be there because, should you have a rare drop, it sells for good gold.

2 - you play the game with no intent to farm gold efficiently. If there was an option to buy a bound infusion (eg chakk inf. for chakk eggs) you would focus farming that content only if you wanted the item.

3 - you've invested into these items by purchasing infusions with the hope of making a profit.

 

personally, I'm in group 2. I don't play to farm gold. Which is why I would be in favour of having (as well as the RNG tradable versions) account bound infusions similar to the Imp Bloom. maybe even limit them to 1 per account or something.

 

I also see that if this is done,  the infusion market would be hit rather hard. The groups of people who this impacts negatively are a)those already with expensive infusions using them for investment and b) those who farm rare item events since their potential max value will drop significantly.

 

I understand that people want the excitement of getting that rare drop and it being worth 5k gold and not a measly 50g max but I'm neither a farmer nor an investor from my viewpoint, account bound versions would be fine.

[Epsilon Indi.2031]

24 minutes ago, Ashen.2907 said:

Isn't that what getting gold doing events, etc is though?

The title asks that infusions be purchasable with a currency....and they are, with the most common currency in the game other than Karma.

Map specific currency for where the infusion drops would keep the map alive, but also something like a piece of the infusion.  Kinda like how the newer ones (Left/right eyes, the frost legion one, etc) are craftable.  It could also tie into crafting materials to raise the price of those as well.

[Ashen.2907]

9 minutes ago, Sir Alymer.3406 said:

Map specific currency for where the infusion drops would keep the map alive, but also something like a piece of the infusion.  Kinda like how the newer ones (Left/right eyes, the frost legion one, etc) are craftable.  It could also tie into crafting materials to raise the price of those as well.

OK, but none of that addresses my point or question.

[Epsilon Indi.2031]

7 hours ago, Ashen.2907 said:

OK, but none of that addresses my point or question.

The discussion around a currency to make the infusions revolves around map specific currencies where said infusions drop (Like the frost legion infusion with the blood of jormag).  From what it looked like, a lot of the discussion was in favor of map specific currencies and not simply generic gold amounts OR some form of bad luck mitigation (similar to aurene's hoard for the aurene weapons).

[Sobx.1758]

20 minutes ago, Sir Alymer.3406 said:

The discussion around a currency to make the infusions revolves around map specific currencies where said infusions drop (Like the frost legion infusion with the blood of jormag).  From what it looked like, a lot of the discussion was in favor of map specific currencies and not simply generic gold amounts OR some form of bad luck mitigation (similar to aurene's hoard for the aurene weapons).

Not exactly, the discussion revolves around "being purchasable for currency if you never get -very- lucky". Any other limitation is added here in an attempt to sidestep the fact you can already farm out currency to buy them.

Edited September 8, 2022 by Sobx.1758

[andreiblue.8231]

9 hours ago, Sobx.1758 said:

"Disprove" what exactly? There's nothing to disprove about the math, lmao. You know there are people that farm up gold (in more than one way), you wrote that yourself. It doesn't need to be "majority", which for some reason you started treating as "if it's minority then it's like it's nobody". This is not how it works.

So you're now easly skipping over the fact that no matter how the gold to gem price swings, it's never enough to be somehow "better to farm gold than to buy gems" time-wise? Convenient, but still wrong. The ratio of gold/gem exchange changes. But it doesn't change that much, so what's the next excuse for the existance of that exchange if -according to you- it "by the rights of basic human psychology and game design" it shouldn't have the right to exist? 🤦‍♂️

Yup -and just like before it still remain factual that if you want to "grind out an infusion", you can already do it with gold. It also remains factual that your ideas inject bigger quantity of infusions than it currently is. Nothing about that changed. The discussion only slightly pivoted into something else, since you somehow think that people in mmos don't grind gold -or that since it's maybe not the majority, you automatically assume nobody does for some reason? - which is rather obivously wrong.

They do grind gold, but who in their right mind would grind 10k gold for an infusion? There are tons of other better items in the game.

[Sobx.1758]

6 minutes ago, andreiblue.8231 said:

They do grind gold, but who in their right mind would grind 10k gold for an infusion? There are tons of other better items in the game.

They can grind for whatever they want, it doesn't change anything about what I said or what those players do. And it's pretty bold to keep repeating players aren't "in their right mind" because they don't do what you want them to do -few posts after you complained about "statistics being pulled out of thin air" being "wow, rude much". 🙄

And yes, it's rather obvious people get gold ingame through gameplay, which is something Alymer constantly tries denying, since "he knows basic human psychology" 🤦‍♂️ 

Edited September 9, 2022 by Sobx.1758