Distortion on virtuoso suggestion.

[Yoci.2481]

Nerf Blurred Inscriptions please. That will take most of the toxicity off of Virtuoso.

[JazzXman.7018]

1 hour ago, Terrorhuz.4695 said:

Definitely. If we wanted we could already get much better reflects (reflect on dodge with 10s cd, 16s cd mirror, feedback with 25s cd, all focus skills when traited, all signets with the right traits), we don't do that because it's definitely not that impactful.

i would say we dont do it because the reflect is just overshadowed by other options, reflect itself is pretty strong just we have super high costs to choose them on mesmer usually. the dodge trait is super inconsistent you cant rly time it you cant rly work with it tactically, so its either some lucky reflect when it is not on icd or you just dodge the projectile attack before completely anyway. mimic heal is not good enough compared to other heals outside of chaosline uses, feedback takes a slot from another utility which are mesmers strength, so you have to give up something extremely powerful for the reflect but feedback seens play since reflect is kinda strong as long as harbinger, ranger, de etc are good. 

however i think 30secs distort would already be too strong for my taste even without reflect. ofc still better than a 17 secs block + core distort with reflect. 

 

my preference would be a 30 secs cd on block but make it a shieldblock so it doesnt get completely rupted by unblockable cc or you make it a 35 secs cd block adding a stunbreak so it can be used a bit like distort. and you just dont give virtu distort at all

Edited September 19, 2022 by JazzXman.7018

[SloRules.3560]

They should make other shatters not projectiles and not bother with distortion.

 

Than you can also take out the unblockable trait.

[agrippastrilemma.8741]

There is the alternative of removing Aegis on Bladesong, that would reduce the defensive coverage / block spam by Virtuoso and compensate for gaining Distortion on F4.

[Solomons.9713]

On 9/20/2022 at 1:14 AM, agrippastrilemma.8741 said:

There is the alternative of removing Aegis on Bladesong, that would reduce the defensive coverage / block spam by Virtuoso and compensate for gaining Distortion on F4.

What are you thinking? Do you even mesmer?

[Leonidrex.5649]

On 9/19/2022 at 2:54 PM, Yoci.2481 said:

Nerf Blurred Inscriptions please. That will take most of the toxicity off of Virtuoso.

I find it funny that mesmers despite being the worst kittening class ask for nerfs in hopes of getting buffs.
We all know that if they DO nerf us we dont get anything out of it lol.
Member when I said nerfing revive trait as its gamebreaking ? what did we get out of it? 😄

[Suyheuti.1732]

On 9/18/2022 at 8:09 PM, Mungo Zen.9364 said:

So......is this a case of Mesmer players seeing a buff (Virtuoso Distortion) and deciding that they don't want it?  Suggesting it be removed or other skills changed to make room for it?  I know that no one asked for this change, and I am sure that it will have a trickle down at some point but, take the buff and move on! 

Let Anet figure out their game, and if Virt Distortion is too oppressive, let other professions tell them to fix it.  We should continue to push for changes we actually need like updates to Mirage Dodge and fixing Chrono traits.

I am betting that what we get won't be as impactful as it appears, but if it is, again, let Anet deal with it while we abuse it.

Just because it is not good idea. Why would I accept it which will be nerfed soon after release? We know when patch releases, toxic players will jump in virtuoso and ruin the game like they have been doing with Bladesworn for a long time. 

[Yoci.2481]

6 hours ago, Leonidrex.5649 said:

I find it funny that mesmers despite being the worst kittening class ask for nerfs in hopes of getting buffs.
We all know that if they DO nerf us we dont get anything out of it lol.
Member when I said nerfing revive trait as its gamebreaking ? what did we get out of it? 😄

From my point of view Blurred Inscriptions is a crutch. A floating device. It keep otherwise underperforming builds afloat. It is also not fun to play against. At least I have never liked playing against builds with long lasting or chained invuls/blocks. And Virtuoso has plenty of that. And now will get F4 Distortion on top. Virtuoso at least doesn't need BI after that change. And other Mesmer builds should have their underlying issues fixed instead of hiding them behind BI. I know, asking for a complete core Mesmer overhaul is wishful thinking, but so is anything we post here so I might as well.

[Leonidrex.5649]

6 hours ago, Yoci.2481 said:

From my point of view Blurred Inscriptions is a crutch. A floating device. It keep otherwise underperforming builds afloat. It is also not fun to play against. At least I have never liked playing against builds with long lasting or chained invuls/blocks. And Virtuoso has plenty of that. And now will get F4 Distortion on top. Virtuoso at least doesn't need BI after that change. And other Mesmer builds should have their underlying issues fixed instead of hiding them behind BI. I know, asking for a complete core Mesmer overhaul is wishful thinking, but so is anything we post here so I might as well.

Oh I agree, all im saying is devs will take it as go ahead for another nerf/removal of a trait and that will be that.
No compensation, no reworks, nothing.
I used to goof around on power inspiration mirage, and I could revive anyone through anything every 30s.
One by one we are missing thigs

Edited September 22, 2022 by Leonidrex.5649

[mungozen.2379]

9 hours ago, Suyheuti.1732 said:

Just because it is not good idea. Why would I accept it which will be nerfed soon after release? We know when patch releases, toxic players will jump in virtuoso and ruin the game like they have been doing with Bladesworn for a long time. 

To you and the others replying to my post, I appreciate that at face value they said 'we are adding distortion to Chrono and Virtuoso' but do you really think they can just add it and move on to the next thing?

Like, F4 Distortion in Core is considered a Shatter, does this mean that Virtuoso F4 Distortion will be considered a Bladesong and have associated Traits updated to reflect this?  Most likely, which means that they will actively have to groom some traits and skills in order to make Distortion work in the first place for both Chrono and Virtuoso. 

This tells me that since they cannot just drop Distortion in, the developers will likely present an attempt at functionally balanced Distortion.  Which is why I said, let them figure it out rather than asking for nerfs and tradeoffs because: this

1 hour ago, Leonidrex.5649 said:

Oh I agree, all im saying is devs will take it as go ahead for another nerf/removal of a trait and that will be that.
No compensation, no reworks, nothing.

This has happened to multiple professions over the years, let's learn the lesson and not give Anet bad ideas.

 

As an aside, I personally do not think Virtuoso needs the F4 Distortion added, but I do not mind having this type of change.  I will be disappointed if they implement in a way that nerfs how Virtuoso or Chrono run currently.

[phokus.8934]

@Cal Cohen.2358

I hope you guys really don't implement Distortion on Virtuoso.  As much as I want it it's just not needed.  You're going to create an absolute nightmare bunker spec.  The problem with Virt isn't its sustain but damage.

[agrippastrilemma.8741]

1 hour ago, phokus.8934 said:

@Cal Cohen.2358

I hope you guys really don't implement Distortion on Virtuoso.  As much as I want it it's just not needed.  You're going to create an absolute nightmare bunker spec.  The problem with Virt isn't its sustain but damage.

I wouldn't necessarily say the problem is just plain "damage" - virtuoso can do a lot of damage vs a golem that is standing still - the problem is more about stuff like reliability and consistency.

* For example if people kite behind walls/pillars, you basically cannot do anything because  particularly on dagger, unlike other Mes specs which have shatters that go through walls, sword 3 that counters LoS, and so on.

* Another example, if people don't attack you (for example if they focus your ally in a 2v2) it becomes harder to proc Psychic Riposte consistently which means you don't get many blades which means you are kind of useless.

* Example three, if the opponent has a lot of projectile denial (tempest) you don't do much.

* Example four, skills like Sword 3 and Bladesong Dissonance miss their target lik 50% of the time, again very unreliable.

Also, it doesn't have a lot of AoE damage outside of dagger (which is a very flawed weapon) and the utilities/elite (which all suck) or any team support so it cannot be a teamfighter.

In short, while increasing the damage would be a bandaid I don't think it really would "fix" Virtuoso.

Edited September 23, 2022 by agrippastrilemma.8741

[phokus.8934]

48 minutes ago, agrippastrilemma.8741 said:

I wouldn't necessarily say the problem is just plain "damage" - virtuoso can do a lot of damage vs a golem that is standing still - the problem is more about stuff like reliability and consistency.

* For example if people kite behind walls/pillars, you basically cannot do anything because  particularly on dagger, unlike other Mes specs which have shatters that go through walls, sword 3 that counters LoS, and so on.

* Another example, if people don't attack you (for example if they focus your ally in a 2v2) it becomes harder to proc Psychic Riposte consistently which means you don't get many blades which means you are kind of useless.

* Example three, if the opponent has a lot of projectile denial (tempest) you don't do much.

* Example four, skills like Sword 3 and Bladesong Dissonance miss their target lik 50% of the time, again very unreliable.

Also, it doesn't have a lot of AoE damage outside of dagger (which is a very flawed weapon) and the utilities/elite (which all suck) or any team support so it cannot be a teamfighter.

In short, while increasing the damage would be a bandaid I don't think it really would "fix" Virtuoso.

I didn't say it'd fix Virt but if I had to choose between sustain and damage, I'm adding to damage.

[Salt Mode.3780]

Adding either damage or sustain isn't going to "help" Virtuoso. The design itself is horrible with kits revolving around projectiles that have slow travel time, huge animations, and the game's original pathing is crap meaning a small pixel will completely block all your projectiles.

Even with 5 blades the damage is subpar while most if not all PvP builds run Psychic Riposte, you are only getting 3 blades refund which lacking the whole 5 blades is kinda garbage. Considering MOST weaponset outside of dagger can generate blades consistently Virtuoso is always lacking in the damage department. This isn't just because the numbers are low its just the fact that you need 5 resources to do optimal damage rather then a core mesmer that only needs 3. Many builds out there can easily rotate and out sustain your damage in which case fighting a Virtuoso is going to be more or less stalemate unless a +1 comes in.

Virtuoso has the worst combination of tools, block being the weakest of all sustain mechanics and 2nd projectiles.

[Salt Mode.3780]

On 9/19/2022 at 5:54 AM, Yoci.2481 said:

Nerf Blurred Inscriptions please. That will take most of the toxicity off of Virtuoso.

This is the reason why core suffers so much. You nerfing blurred inscription will also nerf it for core, chrono, and mirage. 

[Yoci.2481]

On 9/24/2022 at 1:03 AM, Salt Mode.3780 said:

This is the reason why core suffers so much. You nerfing blurred inscription will also nerf it for core, chrono, and mirage. 

That's true. Core needs to be looked at, too.

[katte nici.9483]

I hope they dont nerf anything. Power Chrono in WvW is already so weak. All Mesmer builds need much more mobility.

[Pie.2167]

@Cal Cohen.2358

Many of the issues with Virtuoso have already been raised here, but I would just like to second some of them. 

IMO, the spec doesn’t need distortion (shatter skill 4). The blocks from Bladeturn Requiem have great synergy with the trait Psychic Riposte. 

A minor tweak would be to make Chaos trait Auspicious Anguish also trigger on shatter skill 4 like what was done with Inspiration trait Inspiring Distortion. 

Line of sight is another issue.  I have had bladesongs obstructed in what appears to be an open field while some of the blades hit (same issue happens on Scepter 3 fwiw).  Reducing the casting time of Bladesong Harmony from 3/4 second to 1/2 second would help account for travel time and obvious animations.  Similarly reducing casting time of Bladesong Dissonance from 1/2 second to 1/4 second would make it much more reliable.

While I love the mobility, Sword 3 seems to miss more than it should.

Reducing the cool down time on Twin Blade Restoration from 20 seconds to 18 would make the skill a more viable alternative to Etherfeast and Signet of Healing.  Having it also stock a blade would add another reliable way to generate blades but may be OP.

For team play, Virtuoso doesn’t offer much in the way of support as it relies on blade generation via the Inspiration trait line, and it falls short in DPS and utility in WvW in part because of the stationary elite skill and prevalence of reflects. 

If someone is not attacking you, it is difficult to generate enough Blades. This makes you have to choose between the traits Psychic Riposte (active blade generation and unblockable bladesongs) and Infinite Forge (passive blade regeneration, but now bladesongs are blockable and thus reflectable)

Dagger needs a rework, and I don’t even know where to begin with that one.

Edited September 29, 2022 by For The Love Of Pie.3240

[Zaret.1450]

i think most probably they will put distorsion on f5 and make f4 a dmg skill, no block and just dmg around you prob.

[HotDelirium.7984]

They are kind of trying to reinvent the wheel when they don't have to. We can have shatter skills 1-4 each have a purpose and then in relation to traits have the trait effect the numbered shatter and not just the effect. That's WAY easier to balance then fitting abilities around like janga. 

For example, Shatter 1 can be direct damage, shatter 2 condi, shatter 3 CC related, shatter 4 baseline/elite focused.

[agrippastrilemma.8741]

On 9/19/2022 at 2:55 PM, JazzXman.7018 said:

 

my preference would be a 30 secs cd on block but make it a shieldblock so it doesnt get completely rupted by unblockable cc 

What do you mean?

[agrippastrilemma.8741]

On 9/21/2022 at 2:11 PM, Solomons.9713 said:

What are you thinking? Do you even mesmer?

The trait is a bit toxic (like the old blind on every shatter trait) and too mandatory. I think it would be interesting to make it into protection instead perhaps. The other two competing traits really should be reworked/buffed in PvP too of course.

I would also lower F1 cast time to 1/2s which means you wouldn't need the aegis cover as much.

Edited October 5, 2022 by agrippastrilemma.8741

[Daniel Handler.4816]

On 9/22/2022 at 4:25 AM, Yoci.2481 said:

From my point of view Blurred Inscriptions is a crutch. A floating device. It keep otherwise underperforming builds afloat. It is also not fun to play against. At least I have never liked playing against builds with long lasting or chained invuls/blocks. And Virtuoso has plenty of that. And now will get F4 Distortion on top. Virtuoso at least doesn't need BI after that change. And other Mesmer builds should have their underlying issues fixed instead of hiding them behind BI. I know, asking for a complete core Mesmer overhaul is wishful thinking, but so is anything we post here so I might as well.

 

Mesmer is not fun to plan against.  You might as well delete the entire spec

But speaking of fun.

Blurred inscriptions, coupled with desert distortion, is the only thing that makes mirage fun. When I zoom around with sword ambushes I get the fantasy of a thief-inspired elite spec. I don't even notice the lack of the second dodge. 

Your suggestion is anti-fun. And until they add back more dodges/charges of jaunt and make the deception skills less janky, I would rather keep my zoom build even if it forces me go inspiration. I consider that an acceptable tradeoff. If people want to spam signets on top of aegis spam/shield block/mirage cloak they lose a damage trait line. 

Edited October 5, 2022 by Daniel Handler.4816

[JazzXman.7018]

On 10/5/2022 at 12:49 PM, agrippastrilemma.8741 said:

What do you mean?

prob a shielding block is a more correct label. i mean something like arcane shield on ele or at least dh f3.  even unblockable cc will not end the block for blockable attacks. it will block the whole duration of the skill even when unblockable cc is used.

[agrippastrilemma.8741]

17 hours ago, JazzXman.7018 said:

prob a shielding block is a more correct label. i mean something like arcane shield on ele or at least dh f3.  even unblockable cc will not end the block for blockable attacks. it will block the whole duration of the skill even when unblockable cc is used.

Yeah I see, you don't want it to be a channeled block.