Reflects And Projectile Nullification

[OverRuled.8407]

       After playing countless projectile classes like longbow Ranger,pistol Harbinger,rifle Deadeye and mortar Engineer and a few other projectile classes. I have noticed how ineffective they are in zerg v zerg comped fights due to all the reflects and projectile nullification.There is a absurd amount of Guardian walls,bubbles, engineer bubbles, Elementalist auras and other sneaky ones you can hardly see AKA Necromancer's Corrosive Poison Cloud. It honestly feels like it forces you into one meta for zerg fights"Aoe spam".

     The current meta of support Scrappers providing mobile bubbles,Guardians with shield bubble,reflect wall,Firebrand's tomb bubble and all the other ones i am not going to mention.It's almost impossible to do any meaningful damage with a projectile based build.The other day i was thinking of some ideas that could possibly make projectile builds more viable and give us more build diversity in zerg v zerg settings and i came up with something.

     My idea was to add a reflect and projectile nullification limit to skills.For example guardians reflect wall or scrappers bubble could only nullify or reflect X amount of projectiles during its duration.If it nullifies or reflects more than the X amount the skill disappears.I feel like this would still allow support classes to shield their group with bubbles ect... but make them use them more strategically while giving viability to projectile classes in zerg v zerg and possibly giving us more meta options for DPS. What do you guys think?

 

Edited October 4, 2022 by OverRuled.8407

[Ausar.9542]

nah what I noticed, not all attacks in PvP can be destroyed. In zerg there is some kind of DR compared to PvE in which there isnt,

[LetoII.3782]

Since Unblockable has a count so should Blockable

[OverRuled.8407]

2 hours ago, Ausar.9542 said:

nah what I noticed, not all attacks in PvP can be destroyed. In zerg there is some kind of DR compared to PvE in which there isnt,

I have done a lot of testing literally every projectile in the game can be be nullified or reflected. If its not getting reflected or nullified its not a projectile.

 

NOTE: Not talking about blocks that's totally different thing and you can counter it.

[Justine.6351]

bind a key to stow

really though, projectile denial or not, your pathetic pewpew ranger build isn't going to dent that zerg anyhow.

[OverRuled.8407]

2 minutes ago, Justine.6351 said:

bind a key to stow

really though, projectile denial or not, your pathetic pewpew ranger build isn't going to dent that zerg anyhow.

Why do you default to a pew pew ranger.There is other builds that are not rangers.I list a few in the OP.There's a projectile build for every class and elite spec in the game.I guess all of those wont dent a zerg either?Stowing your weapon, might as well switch builds and weapon because your going to be siting there with your weapon sheathed forever because of the number reflects and what not on your screen.The whole point of the OP is about all projectile builds and how they could bring more build diversity into the WvW game mode if something was changed about the current state of reflects and projectile nullification.

[Riba.3271]

54 minutes ago, OverRuled.8407 said:

I have done a lot of testing literally every projectile in the game can be be nullified or reflected. If its not getting reflected or nullified its not a projectile.

It is common strategy in PvE where you destroy unblockable projectiles by using invulnerability. Used in Triple Trouple to stop boss from throwing more mobs to the ground for example.

 

Forgotten mechanic in WvW since renewed focus and mist form left the meta but it did not only absorb target caps but also destroy unblockable projectiles. Now that Chrono is going to have distortion back, I imagine it will occur more.

Edited October 4, 2022 by Riba.3271

[OverRuled.8407]

6 minutes ago, Riba.3271 said:

It is common strategy in PvE where you destroy unblockable projectiles by using invulnerability. Used in Triple Trouple to stop boss from throwing more mobs to the ground for example.

 

Forgotten mechanic in WvW since renewed focus and mist form left the meta but it did not only absorb target caps but also destroy unblockable projectiles. Now that Chrono is going to have distortion back, I imagine it will occur more.

Oh Joy lol

[Justine.6351]

2 hours ago, OverRuled.8407 said:

... might as well switch builds and weapon...

think you are on to something there

[TheGrimm.5624]

2 hours ago, Justine.6351 said:

bind a key to stow

really though, projectile denial or not, your pathetic pewpew ranger build isn't going to dent that zerg anyhow.

 

Hey I am right here and resemble that remark!  🙂 That said Rangers remain #1 public enemy to Necros and still ask any havoc Rangers to focus Necros first when grouping up since as a Necro they are one of the better counters. Rangers can dent zergs but they need to focus appropriate targets and when they run as a havoc and focus fire can drop a lot of targets, especially SB rangers sharing stances. Now whether projectile and denial need changed, will leave that alone, but would disagree that Rangers can't hurt zergs. If they couldn't we wouldn't have so much complaints about tag sniping.  

[Dawdler.8521]

3 hours ago, LetoII.3782 said:

Since Unblockable has a count so should Blockable

All auras/domes/shields working like that guard focus skill whatever its called would actually be pretty neat.

[SoftFootpaws.9134]

This is by design, and if you've played other RvR games you'd understand why. Traditionally, every game with an archer archetype sees alot of players chosing that class because of the "Legolas" image. This leads to the competitive scene of games being absolutely flooded with archers, with this game being no different, and Ranger being one of the most played classes.

 

Traditionally in online games, especially RvR games where packs of 50+ players is possible, this makes melee almost impossible to play, as they just get mowed down as soon as they enter sight range. Mechanics like projectile hate were intended to prevent this scenario in Guild Wars, giving a balanced playing field for all classes instead of having scenarios where your melee have to be backed by personal healers just to reach the enemy.

 

Despite this, archer pollution is still pretty bad here, which you'll see if you fight a server like Mag. That said, I have seen a reduction in Legolas clones over the years and it does seem to be getting better, so maybe we can seriously consider reducing projectile hate.

 

(Though I imagine that PvP will always be ranger danger.)

Edited October 4, 2022 by Mariyuuna.6508

[oatsnjuices.1698]

Maybe if this change comes, we will finally be able to see which commander is squishiest. I can think of a few guilds and even a whole server that would be willing to run enough rangers to put it to the test.

[Gotejjeken.1267]

Why is it always a longbow mention...

If 'blockable count' were a thing you wouldn't see longbow rangers denting zergs, it'd be shortbow rangers with piercing arrows destroying the 'block count' of bubbles.  

This is why it isn't a thing.  

 

[Justine.6351]

10 minutes ago, Gotejjeken.1267 said:

Why is it always a longbow mention...

If 'blockable count' were a thing you wouldn't see longbow rangers denting zergs, it'd be shortbow rangers with piercing arrows destroying the 'block count' of bubbles.  

This is why it isn't a thing.  

 

https://wiki.guildwars2.com/wiki/Lead_the_Wind

[Dawdler.8521]

1 hour ago, Gotejjeken.1267 said:

Why is it always a longbow mention...

If 'blockable count' were a thing you wouldn't see longbow rangers denting zergs, it'd be shortbow rangers with piercing arrows destroying the 'block count' of bubbles.  

This is why it isn't a thing.  

 

But all attacks would take the "count" away. If we just talk lb ranger, barrage could clear bubbles allowing people to hit with projectiles. Not to mention rapid fire exploding a scrapper bubble halfway through the sequence or something. 

Edited October 4, 2022 by Dawdler.8521

[Mabi black.1824]

6 hours ago, Justine.6351 said:

.....might as well switch builds and weapons ....

think you are on to something there

 

with your answer, it basically highlights that you are in the wrong, and if you can't see it you should change your perspective to see things from another point of view, maybe a little broader. every time you make a construction useless and every time you make a weapon unusable it means that the developer has made some mistake.

I guess the developer should work in just the opposite direction. you should try to expand the range, give the player so many ways to build differently and with all the weapons he has available, it helps, it gives us the chance to be all different, and we should all be able to be effective if well built + or - whenever you set limits in this sense and deny me the use of one of my weapons,  you have failed.

Edited October 4, 2022 by Mabi black.1824

[Doo Lally.8594]

I dropped Guardian reflective wall and Tome 3, skill 3 on door bashers most of last evening.

 

The numbers were glorious 😘

 

I mean, when you're on fire you should really stop pew-pewing that door.

 

Bags for days. 🤑

Edited October 4, 2022 by Doo Lally.8594
removing server name

[Zyreva.1078]

5 hours ago, Dawdler.8521 said:

But all attacks would take the "count" away. If we just talk lb ranger, barrage could clear bubbles allowing people to hit with projectiles. Not to mention rapid fire exploding a scrapper bubble halfway through the sequence or something. 

Limiting the amount of hits that can be blocked/reflected favours multi hit attacks and superior numbers while punishing single hit/slow attacks and outnumbered players, or with other words - the ones that are already at a disadvantage. That's not how "balance" should look like.

Having defenses that can't be powered through by sheer numbers and mindless spam is a good thing.

Also barrage is not a projectile attack and completely unaffected by any sort of projectile denial.

Edited October 4, 2022 by UmbraNoctis.1907

[Xenesis.6389]

They just need to add this to rangers is all.

https://wiki.guildwars2.com/wiki/Choking_Gas

🤷‍♂️ 🤭

 

As for the discussion, I was never really for adding counts to reflects, too many projectiles in the game for that to work properly. In fact they probably should just take reflects out and just have the standard shield blocking. Reflects use to be strong, but they got nerfed so that they don't even matter, yeah it's cool to see the numbers flying all over the screen, but they do nothing to a zerg. 🤷‍♂️

For now classes like rangers and warriors do have access to skills that give periods of 10 unblockable attacks for them, try to use them properly. 🤷‍♂️

[Zyreva.1078]

5 minutes ago, Xenesis.6389 said:

As for the discussion, I was never really for adding counts to reflects, too many projectiles in the game for that to work properly. In fact they probably should just take reflects out and just have the standard shield blocking. Reflects use to be strong, but they got nerfed so that they don't even matter, yeah it's cool to see the numbers flying all over the screen, but they do nothing to a zerg. 🤷‍♂️

I'd like to keep my reflects. Nothing better than not running longbow and still having "Rapid Fire" among my top dmg skills ...

[Gotejjeken.1267]

11 hours ago, Justine.6351 said:

https://wiki.guildwars2.com/wiki/Lead_the_Wind

 

9 hours ago, Dawdler.8521 said:

But all attacks would take the "count" away. If we just talk lb ranger, barrage could clear bubbles allowing people to hit with projectiles. Not to mention rapid fire exploding a scrapper bubble halfway through the sequence or something. 

 

Again, it's just this most basic line of thinking that gets me. 

I say 'why is it always longbow' and immediately get linked to the wiki (lol) and then also replies telling me about the two most well known functions of longbow (rapid fire and barrage).

There's still a 5-target cap on barrage, and rapid fire is on a 10-sec CD without investment.  What I'm saying is you could more optimally invest in shortbow or even axe and destroy bubbles way faster.

Really, the only reason I came in to highlight ranger specifically is any time these topics are brought up, it always devolves back to longbow.  Thankfully mech's get some of the noob-hate now, but I feel longbow is always going to be #1 in the mind of people who love blocks / evades / etc.

[subversiontwo.7501]

Yet another one of these threads, if it didn't work 15 times before, try a 16th, eh? 😑

In the last thread on this very same topic I helped the same people salivating over changing reflects here by explaining that reflects exist to balance projectiles so they can continue to be projectiles. I understand that reading about it may be tough, that theory is difficult and when you don't want to see things you usually don't see them.

However, let me try with some visual aid this time. I think Broski's video from this summer does very good at illustrating the point:

No gt/aoe-type of attacks does this kind of damage, with as quick or low-telegraphed connections. It isn't impossible for ArenaNet to remove reflects and then rebalance projectiles in these other ways. However, I have a strong feeling that the people who keep making these threads are not actually looking for balance. They are looking for self-gratification. Anyway, the video is pretty fun if you haven't seen it already. It does show the reason why reflects exist to balance most potential builds with Rifles, Longbows and the like.

Ps. even many years ago I've run a full havoc party with 4 of these types of Warriors setup by a Ranger (group stealth, damage bonuses and additional projectile damage), together with a couple of friends. That's possible too.

Edited October 4, 2022 by subversiontwo.7501

[Justine.6351]

6 hours ago, Mabi black.1824 said:

with your answer, it basically highlights that you are in the wrong, and if you can't see it you should change your perspective to see things from another point of view, maybe a little broader. every time you make a construction useless and every time you make a weapon unusable it means that the developer has made some mistake.

I guess the developer should work in just the opposite direction. you should try to expand the range, give the player so many ways to build differently and with all the weapons he has available, it helps, it gives us the chance to be all different, and we should all be able to be effective if well built + or - whenever you set limits in this sense and deny me the use of one of my weapons,  you have failed.

lol and in this same thread there are people talking about tag snipping and focusing necros. Its almost like if you know what you are doing you can make many more things work over the player that just wants to press 1 and 2 into a reflect bubble and legolas them into the ground. That's why I am against a counter for reflect walls. All it would do is reward continued failing until "success".

[Justine.6351]

3 minutes ago, subversiontwo.7501 said:

Yet another one of these threads, if it didn't work 15 times before, try a 16th, eh? 😑

In the last thread on this very same topic I helped the same people salivating over changing reflects here by explaining that reflects exist to balance projectiles so they can continue to be projectiles. I understand that reading about it may be tough, that theory is difficult and when you don't want to see things you usually don't see them.

However, let me try with some visual aid this time. I think Broski's video from this summer does very good at illustrating the point:

No gt/aoe-type of attacks does this kind of damage, with as quick or low-telegraphed connections. It isn't impossible for ArenaNet to remove reflects and then rebalance projectiles in these other ways. However, I have a strong feeling that the people who keep making these threads are not actually looking for balance. They are looking for self-gratification. Anyway, the video is pretty fun if you haven't seen it already.

oh god I cannot wait to see this horror show rofl 😁