Vindicator Dodge

[Angesombre.4630]

 

[Suyheuti.1732]

14 minutes ago, Angesombre.4630 said:

 

Wow, that is fast. 

[Catchyfx.5768]

I kinda hope they rework the traits, having trait that gives you 2sec vigor and 15% more endurance recovery (this is best in slot anyway) is pointless. There is traits that gives you 1.5 sec vigor in retribution i guess.

Wasted slots. Make traits that do something.

[LucianTheAngelic.7054]

6 hours ago, Buran.3796 said:

      Since then the spec not only fell out of meta but also almost entirely faded from ranking, with players mostly running either the same Herald build that has been around for 8 years, or the tuned down Renegade. It was clear that in PvP wasn't "an incredible duellist even after the nerfs", at all.

Well then you haven't been fighting good vindis, sorry. It was better than Herald and Renegade against a ton of matchups that both of those struggle with (any condi matchup for example) and also better against both Herald and Renegade in the mirror matchup. I will absolutely die on the hill that Vindicator has been the better duelist than either of those specs since it was released

However, as we all know, "Duelist" has almost never been the reason to take Rev anyway, it's almost always been taken for +1, and Vindicator was not as good as Herald in the +1 game. It's also a little more fragile than Herald in team fights despite having better overall team fight damage. And Herald has been "meh" in MATs as well, but that doesn't mean *Vindicator is bad* or doesn't have other strengths. MATs aren't really the best way to judge effectiveness overall anyway since it's, quite frankly, an incredibly niche mode at this point that barely anyone plays. Sure, the best play it, but it's not what the vast, vast majority of pvp players are playing

Edited October 6, 2022 by LucianTheAngelic.7054

[GenerationX.9178]

honestly in state game is at and way people play it the vindictor dodge is least your worries....it just makes more playable vs the some other specs that are busted . you can complain at about dodge but its fine way it is. most people will spam it so just wait your skills out, dodge dodesnt do much damage so just chill wait...every class will seem busted in good players hands......idc about this at this point with meme builds out there

[Shutensou.7162]

 I feel like the second endurance bar change ruined what gave Vindicator its uniqueness. They could've done something else to accommodate the lack of survivability. I main Vindi after it came out and I had to agree it was a weird learning curve, but with some practice it wasn't unplayable in, at least, PVE. Now, it just feels like playing a clunky Power DD. I just hope they make some change for Vindi in the coming November balance. Watching Vindicator getting constantly shafted is tiresome. 😔

[Polar.8634]

Oh no, cannot SLAM the boar! Seriously, if vindi was so good, why nobody plays it. 

I saw maybe few in open world while mapcompleting. 

close no noone in instance, few in pvp, 1-2 per server in wvw.

The only fans of vindi slam live here in forums

[LucianTheAngelic.7054]

On 10/5/2022 at 12:12 AM, Blood Red Arachnid.2493 said:

 With their dodge being a necessary part of their damage rotations, vinds had... nothing at all to avoid attacks,  Most they could hope for is enough spare energy for a block skill.

And the block was sufficient in 99% of cases. I don’t think people understand exactly how good GS4 block is. In most instanced content you honestly did not need anything else and with alacrity it’s extremely low cool down and low cost. And if you did need something else you still had energy meld for the “oh kitten” scenarios. And all of the other defensive tools in the kit, not to mention supports supporting you. People complaining about vindicator needing two dodges honestly just didn’t understand how to play the class well

[LucianTheAngelic.7054]

23 minutes ago, Polar.8634 said:

Oh no, cannot SLAM the boar! Seriously, if vindi was so good, why nobody plays it. 

I saw maybe few in open world while mapcompleting. 

close no noone in instance, few in pvp, 1-2 per server in wvw.

The only fans of vindi slam live here in forums

It wasn’t played because the damage sucked. Period. It’s still not going to be played because the damage still sucks. Period. Giving it an extra dodge does not fix anything especially since they’re nerfing everything now. It only makes the build slightly more accessible to people who can’t press GS4 for some reason.
 

And it was played in PVP they had to Nerf the Dodge multiple times

[Polar.8634]

2 minutes ago, LucianTheAngelic.7054 said:

30 minutes ago, Polar.8634 said:

Oh no, cannot SLAM the boar! Seriously, if vindi was so good, why nobody plays it. 

I saw maybe few in open world while mapcompleting. 

close no noone in instance, few in pvp, 1-2 per server in wvw.

The only fans of vindi slam live here in forums

Expand  

It wasn’t played because the damage sucked. Period. It’s still not going to be played because the damage still sucks. Period.

Damage was 35k. It's like mech . If it was fun  to play it would be played

[Polar.8634]

3 minutes ago, LucianTheAngelic.7054 said:

And it was played in PVP they had to Nerf the Dodge multiple times

Not dodge, heal

[LucianTheAngelic.7054]

4 minutes ago, Polar.8634 said:

Damage was 35k. It's like mech . If it was fun  to play it would be played

Damage was 34k on small and is completely melee range. 
 

mech was 38k and mostly ranged and also the pet let’s you be half afk. 
 

these are not even comparable my dude 

Edited October 6, 2022 by LucianTheAngelic.7054

[LucianTheAngelic.7054]

1 minute ago, Polar.8634 said:

Not dodge, heal

The heal dodge is still the dodge my guy 

[Polar.8634]

8 minutes ago, LucianTheAngelic.7054 said:

The heal dodge is still the dodge my guy 

heal is heal. dodge is just a form to use it. and heal skill is definitelly not dodge. my guy

Edited October 6, 2022 by Polar.8634

[LucianTheAngelic.7054]

1 minute ago, Polar.8634 said:

heal is heal. dodge is just a form to use it

I’m literally not going to argue with you about this. They objectively nerfed the dodge grandmaster multiple times because they deemed it was over performing. Therefore, the “one dodge” was actually good enough as long as the effects were good enough. It’s really not that hard to grasp that by nerfing the grandmaster trait it also nerfs the dodge and that one dodge can be good, and in fact too good in some cases 

[Zaret.1450]

13 hours ago, artharon.9276 said:

 

I dont understand your point. You mean bugatti should make their cars slower just because some people can't drive it?

 

Lol. Thanks.

ein? what has vindi to do with bugatti? and speed?

i meant, how many vindis did you see before the patch? much less than now, because it was dificult to play? for dps you camp IO and dwar hammer and gs and do the same dmg you would do with aliance, it isnt difficult, it just had nothing positive and remarkable, but only one dodge was a remarkable negative with lots more to count, low dmg, dependance on huge hitbox, no alacrity as a healer, lack of weapon variety( because camping gs is the same dmg as swaping with sw sw but you dont bother swapping)

So no, bugatti doesnt need to decrease their cars speed, im sure youre happy, and im sure you didnt play vindi before and now youd probably play it more and see more vindis with diferent builds. XD

[Zaret.1450]

29 minutes ago, LucianTheAngelic.7054 said:

Damage was 34k on small and is completely melee range. 
 

mech was 38k and mostly ranged and also the pet let’s you be half afk. 
 

these are not even comparable my dude 

There lucian is right, but the problems there are.

1 mec is bugged and still does too much dmg i think, when fixed it may go to 35k dunno

2 vindi with 2 dodges and 1 dodge does the same dmg, just not as much air afk time and i find it more enjoyable because of that, now they should buff arche skills, swords and other things, just make it so we have 35k on small and 37 on huge, it wouldnt even be broken.

[LucianTheAngelic.7054]

2 minutes ago, zaswer.5246 said:

There lucian is right, but the problems there are.

1 mec is bugged and still does too much dmg i think, when fixed it may go to 35k dunno

2 vindi with 2 dodges and 1 dodge does the same dmg, just not as much air afk time and i find it more enjoyable because of that, now they should buff arche skills, swords and other things, just make it so we have 35k on small and 37 on huge, it wouldnt even be broken.

I think we could argue for 37 small 39 huge honestly. As a full melee build it probably should bench the same/more than power virt who is 38k with range

[Za Shaloc.3908]

42 minutes ago, LucianTheAngelic.7054 said:

And the block was sufficient in 99% of cases. I don’t think people understand exactly how good GS4 block is. In most instanced content you honestly did not need anything else and with alacrity it’s extremely low cool down and low cost. And if you did need something else you still had energy meld for the “oh kitten” scenarios. And all of the other defensive tools in the kit, not to mention supports supporting you. People complaining about vindicator needing two dodges honestly just didn’t understand how to play the class well

I find your takes on stuff to generally be some of the best on this subforum and enjoy reading what you have to say. I definitely agree with you to an extent that Vindi has a lot of tools to make up for it having 1 dodge, but I dunno...I am just not a fan of any sort of one-dodge design, like in any form. While I understand it brought uniqueness to the espec, in my eyes there is still enough uniqueness with it having 2 dodges, as at the end of the day they are still enhanced dodges. I think as a whole the espec is lacking a bit of finishing touches, but I can't lie...I'm really happy they changed it. I'm not a huge PvEr, but would a lot of your issues be resolved if they increased the numbers to make it a more competitive dps, or do you think it goes deeper than that?

[Polar.8634]

when in wvw on mirage for example i at least have distortion, invis, blink, blur and interrupts to compensate for 1 dodge. and dodge bar fully recharged with sigil. 

What we had before dodge change: sigil gave only half dodge bar, dodge very long, a block to compensate for dodge(block is countered by unblockable).

While it was playable, it was definitelly not fun to play against something like thief with unblockable attacks.

this vulnerability changed gameplay in a way you should be very defensive, while being aggresive is more fun. i saw just few vindicators to fight against, and all of them were bursted down right after their first dodge.

[LucianTheAngelic.7054]

1 hour ago, Za Shaloc.3908 said:

I find your takes on stuff to generally be some of the best on this subforum and enjoy reading what you have to say. I definitely agree with you to an extent that Vindi has a lot of tools to make up for it having 1 dodge, but I dunno...I am just not a fan of any sort of one-dodge design, like in any form. While I understand it brought uniqueness to the espec, in my eyes there is still enough uniqueness with it having 2 dodges, as at the end of the day they are still enhanced dodges. I think as a whole the espec is lacking a bit of finishing touches, but I can't lie...I'm really happy they changed it. I'm not a huge PvEr, but would a lot of your issues be resolved if they increased the numbers to make it a more competitive dps, or do you think it goes deeper than that?

Thank you I appreciate that! I also appreciate your contributions!

My issue in PvE with the spec is that it just didn't bring enough damage or unique support to justify its one dodge design; switching it to two dodges doesn't fix that. Even now with 2 dodges, the spec still has no strong, defined role past "mediocre melee dps." With one dodge it would have been justified to have "less defensive options" if it had competitive levels of dps (37k small, 39k huge, or they could normalize further at 37-38k on small with little variance). If it had those levels of damage it would never have been an issue and it would have been played more than it is now. The problem with the one dodge design in PvE is that when the one dodge doesn't have a benefit (which it never has in PvE so far) it becomes "a hindrance" more than anything else. If the spec did high tier damage you'd see a lot less complaints about it in PvE.

However, the one dodge ends up as a scapegoat for the spec's PvE failures, when that's the furthest thing from what the spec actually has problems with (My experience here btw is coming from a raider with thousands of raid kills since raids were introduced in HoT and hundreds of hours of experience on Vindicator since it came out in PvE in Instanced Content). The spec actually has so many good built in defensive options that I never saw the dodge as a hindrance and the class only gets easier to play with higher knowledge of encounters as well/having good supports on your side. But the problem is that it's never been worth it to play when so many easier options have existed that do more damage and from range (mech, virt, etc.). I will say that two dodges will increase the spec's playability a bit, but only because less skilled players will have a slightly easier time with it so they'll be slightly less turned off. However, it's still not going to be played that much, especially when its cousin Herald is almost as good of a Power DPS as it and far, far safer to play as a dps and even easier. Even with 2 dodges, Vindi is still frail for anyone who doesn't know what a GS4 or a S3 or an Energy Meld is.

 

As for PvP/WvW, I think the spec already had crazy survivability before this 2 dodge change. High skill cap, but the higher the tier of player the more you could get out of its kit (just like most Rev specs, but especially Vindi). I mean, they already had to nerf a ton of its defensive options, including the one dodge, to try to "bring it in line." I think that should say a lot by itself. Not one nerf to the dodge, but three! Alliance/Shiro GS/Staff or S/S honestly feels like a pre-nerf Revenant in a lot of ways. Huge mobility and so many defensive options easily accessible that it can kite for days and duel pretty much anything exceptionally well. Slap energy sigils and adventure runes on that puppy and it still used traditional dodges a ton.

Death Drop nerfed in WvW one time and Saint's Shield nerfed in WvW one time and in PvP THREE TIMES. That right there says that the one dodge design can and does work, especially in combination with the rest of its kit which is super evasive/defensive in PvP/WvW already. 

With two dodges the spec just becomes so much more "samey" with everything else and to me it just feels like "Daredevil, but with Greatsword and Support options" (even Forerunner of Death's damage mod is literally just Bound's mod, copy paste, but with longer duration).  The one dodge was impactful and differentiated itself from everything else, so it's sad to see them go back on their design simply because they couldn't be assed to balance it properly. (oh, and the sped up animation sucks imo).

Edited October 6, 2022 by LucianTheAngelic.7054

[phokus.8934]

A design principle that should've been kept is not messing with standard game mechanics.  Having one dodge was a gross mistake for Mirage in pvp/wvw and Vindicator.  I'm glad they're going back to that because now you can better balance those elites.

[LucianTheAngelic.7054]

5 minutes ago, Polar.8634 said:

I am aware, but vindi hits a new low. and looking at your comments i am not sure of value of your time spent on spec nomatter how many is that.

“When you have nothing of value to say, just insult them”  -Polar 

 

sorry dude, not responding to you anymore since you clearly can’t keep it civil in your past few responses. You know nothing of my experience with the class or what level I play it at (it’s high) and I’ve been around for a lot longer than you.  Feel free to keep quoting my posts and responding but ✌️

 

 

[Kulvar.1239]

2 hours ago, Polar.8634 said:

Oh no, cannot SLAM the boar! Seriously, if vindi was so good, why nobody plays it. 

I saw maybe few in open world while mapcompleting. 

close no noone in instance, few in pvp, 1-2 per server in wvw.

The only fans of vindi slam live here in forums

Revenant is the least played class. That's why you don't see much of them.

[Aeolus.3615]

1 hour ago, Polar.8634 said:

On second thought, beacause of vindi state before i played more and more mesmer and necro. Lets do it, anet pls revert vindi to one dodge so i have more bags.

vindi atm can be in perma dodge: (this will make the target u heal and barrier give u direct  endurance), did a +15  for  several minutes with  damage and non damage version, this changes was mega stupid, i dont even use minstrell papega stats...

traits vind -> reaver curse + saint shield

from centaur -> clear condi on dodge and gain direct endurance on clear condi

from jalis -> vigor on evade + viscious reprisal if doing perma leap damage since will give u might

Edited October 6, 2022 by Aeolus.3615