Mechanist is dividing the Community

[Lynx.9058]

1 hour ago, Asum.4960 said:

When one specialisation out of 36 (27 without core) makes up 33% of all played specialisations, then yes, that seems fairly clear cut indicative of an issue. 

A spec exploding that much in popularity (and for very good reasons) is indeed entirely unprecedented in the game's history.

 

And while the nerf already reduced it's playrate slightly, that seems mostly post-nerf psychological, as it's still busted due to it's sheer DPS uptime.

Last night running champion/bounty/event trains, I was seeing 2-3 mechanists out of 20-30 players in each group.  I think your numbers are BS at this point, honestly.

Anyways, following the patch the damage output has definitely dropped, but it seems right in line with my harbinger/firebrand now.

[Asum.4960]

1 hour ago, Stalima.5490 said:

what good is uptime when a warrior can just press one button and do the damage of the entire mechanist rotation in one button though?

Every second that Warrior can't just stand there in melee range to press and charge that one button, due to boss movement or having to avoid mechanics, it does essentially zero DPS. 

Meanwhile Mech is essentially fully 1200 ranged and does pretty much 100% of it's DPS 100% of the time. 

 

In practice that means any spec relying remotely on being in melee to medium range needs to do thousands of static Golem DPS more than Mechanist to do similar total damage than it over the course of the whole real fight.

 

DPS uptime is a massive factor, and Mech both in (complete lack of) rotational complexity as well as range is absolutely ridiculous in that regard. It has great burst, great cleave and then delivers 100% of it's DPS over the whole fight, no matter the encounter. 

 

Anyone who doesn't understand the value of DPS uptime isn't qualified to evaluate Mechanists power level. 

 

58 minutes ago, Malus.2184 said:

That's the instictive reation. The real reason so many people play Mechanist is that playing the spec is easy compared to everyone else, which means that they're too difficult.

It's a far more multifaceted issue than that - and that's an incredibly flawed conclusion. 

Anet adding a spec that does peak DPS without any rotation whatsoever at 1200 range, doesn't mean every other profession and spec in the game suddenly is too difficult to play - just that the added spec, Mechanist, is overpowered. 

It doesn't matter how hard you try to justify that. 

 

Mechanist being easy to play isn't the issue. Mechanist having essentially 100% DPS uptime/being fully ranged isn't the issue. Mechanist doing top tier DPS isn't the issue. Mechanist doing all three of those at once is the issue.

44 minutes ago, Lynx.9058 said:

Last night running champion/bounty/event trains, I was seeing 2-3 mechanists out of 20-30 players in each group.  I think your numbers are BS at this point, honestly.

If you click the link you'll see those aren't "my" numbers.

I tend to believe hundreds of thousands of aggregated data points, as well as my own anecdotal experience, more than your one example.

Edited October 7, 2022 by Asum.4960

[Lynx.9058]

You tend to believe what supports your particular agenda, that's the gist of it.

[Malus.2184]

4 minutes ago, Asum.4960 said:

It's a far more multifaceted issue than that - and that's an incredibly flawed conclusion. 

Anet adding a spec that does peak DPS without any rotation whatsoever at 1200 range, doesn't mean every other profession and spec in the game suddenly is too difficult to play - just that the added spec, Mechanist, is overpowered. 

It doesn't matter how hard you try to justify that. 

It is really that simple even if you dislike it. A spec that involves a little more complexity can pull higher nuimbers even before the nerf, yet no one is complaining about Virtuosu.

The presence of something similar that no one has any issue with shows that it's a matter of general complexity instead of specific simplicity since there's no consistency in the opposition. 

Mentioning the range thing is a general thing that needs to be adressed for all ranged builds though instead, of just for Mechanist specifically.

[Asum.4960]

20 minutes ago, Lynx.9058 said:

You tend to believe what supports your particular agenda, that's the gist of it.

I linked you data about the compositions of millions of Squads, forming the basis of my point. Your counter was an anecdotal experience of you playing last night. 

 

And then you hit me with that, really?

19 minutes ago, Malus.2184 said:

It is really that simple even if you dislike it. A spec that involves a little more complexity can pull higher nuimbers even before the nerf, yet no one is complaining about Virtuosu.

The presence of something similar that no one has any issue with shows that it's a matter of general complexity instead of specific simplicity since there's no consistency in the opposition. 

Mentioning the range thing is a general thing that needs to be adressed for all ranged builds though instead, of just for Mechanist specifically.

I've just been playing Strikes as of late, but in those encounters at least I've personally never seen Mechs (who weren't literally just auto attacking) get out DPS'ed in boss DPS by anything else. Not even remotely close. 

Plus there have already been plenty complaints about Virtuoso, Mech just took all of the spotlight for a while now as the far bigger outlier. 

And yes, Ranged specs doing the same or more Static Golem DPS as melee or even partially ranged builds (and hence performing far superior in any non-golem environment) is something that needs to be reevaluated beyond just Mechanist.

Edited October 7, 2022 by Asum.4960

[Malus.2184]

18 minutes ago, Asum.4960 said:

Plus there have already been plenty complaints about Virtuoso, Mech just took all of the spotlight for a while now as the far bigger outlier. 

Then you're just creating a Twitter-style 'Villain of the Day' instead of doing anything constructive. Hypothetically Mech and Virtuoso get nerfed. Then by your reasoning it's just be a new spec people complain about. And history backs this up. Before Virt it was Scourge. If these two got affected it would be Specter.

The only commonality of these four is that their rotations is a lot easier than most. Their roration is within most people's ZPD.

[Asum.4960]

15 minutes ago, Malus.2184 said:

Then you're just creating a Twitter-style 'Villain of the Day' instead of doing anything constructive. Hypothetically Mech and Virtuoso get nerfed. Then by your reasoning it's just be a new spec people complain about. And history backs this up. Before Virt it was Scourge. If these two got affected it would be Specter.

The only commonality of these four is that their rotations is a lot easier than most. Their roration is within most people's ZPD.

There is a line where complaints about outliers are reasonable, and where it gets to the point of just complaining for complaining's sake. 

Mech is objectively and to an unprecedented degree incredibly far ahead of everything else. Not just some flavour of the month. 

And it's fairly natural to focus on one problem at a time, and to start with the by far biggest one. You don't need to turn that into some political commentary.

 

Mech being played over specs like Dragonhunter, Holosmith or Reaper etc. has nothing to do with "ZPD", it simply does far more damage at far higher range with far less effort. Doesn't mean those specs are too hard to play.

Don't make this more complex than it needs to be. 

 

It's fine for Mech to be easy and ranged, but then it needs to do far less DPS than average. 

It's fine for Mech to be easy and do high damage, but then it definitely can't do so at 1200 range.

It's fine for Mech to be ranged with high damage, but then it absolutely can't be easy to execute. 

 

That's all that's to it. It's a spec with all the strengths and non of the weaknesses. No individual factor is the issue, but the combination of all of them.

Edited October 7, 2022 by Asum.4960

[AliamRationem.5172]

2 minutes ago, Malus.2184 said:

Then you're just creating a Twitter-style 'Villain of the Day' instead of doing anything constructive. Hypothetically Mech and Virtuoso get nerfed. Then by your reasoning it's just be a new spec people complain about. And history backs this up. Before Virt it was Scourge. If these two got affected it would be Specter.

The only commonality of these four is that their rotations is a lot easier than most. Their roration is within most people's ZPD.

Scourge was overtuned.  People talked about it.  They fixed it.  Same is happening to mechanist now.  That's the value of feedback.  That balance is a continuous process is a given, but you start with the more extreme outliers and move on to the next.  Virtuoso and Specter could use a shave, but mechanist is the more problematic spec.

 

[Nash.2681]

1 hour ago, Stalima.5490 said:

what good is uptime when a warrior can just press one button and do the damage of the entire mechanist rotation in one button though?

Suggestion: take your warrior (or make one), get your bladesworn to the testgolem until you're familiar with the rotation to the spot where you constantly hit, let's say 80% of the benchmark, then join some strikes or raids, preferably some with non-stationary bosses, and then come back here and tell us if you still believe in what you wrote.

[Malus.2184]

38 minutes ago, AliamRationem.5172 said:

Scourge was overtuned.  People talked about it.  They fixed it.  Same is happening to mechanist now.  That's the value of feedback.  That balance is a continuous process is a given, but you start with the more extreme outliers and move on to the next.  Virtuoso and Specter could use a shave, but mechanist is the more problematic spec.

 

Balance of numbers is a different hing than balance of design. On that matter, what is your ideal DPS benchamark that marks overperforming and underperforming.

[AliamRationem.5172]

14 minutes ago, Malus.2184 said:

Balance of numbers is a different hing than balance of design. On that matter, what is your ideal DPS benchamark that marks overperforming and underperforming.

Balance is relative.  What matters is that they control the outliers.

[Tails.9372]

2 hours ago, Lynx.9058 said:

Last night running champion/bounty/event trains, I was seeing 2-3 mechanists out of 20-30 players in each group.  I think your numbers are BS at this point, honestly.

When talking about "mech being at 33%" people specifically refer to how it is for organized 10 man instanced content. This obviously does not apply to other areas of the game which is often times left out / not emphasised for a variety of reasons.

[Kuma.1503]

Power Mech post nerf is sitting at roughly 33-34k DPS. 

Slightly below Scrapper and Holo. 

1-2k below scourge

3-4k below virtuoso. 

At this point it's in line with the other ranged specs. The above have a higher skill floor than mech (not a high bar mind you), but are more rewarding, and only take a minor amount of effort to achieve those results. 

I believe this is what people call "Balance perception inertia". Players aren't going to stop complaining that Mech is OP until it is objectively undertuned (32k or below)

 

Edited October 7, 2022 by Kuma.1503

[Malus.2184]

2 hours ago, Asum.4960 said:

Mech being played over specs like Dragonhunter, Holosmith or Reaper etc. has nothing to do with "ZPD", it simply does far more damage at far higher range with far less effort. Doesn't mean those specs are too hard to play.

Then please explain to me what the ZPD is?

48 minutes ago, AliamRationem.5172 said:

Balance is relative.  What matters is that they control the outliers.

That is an expression of the belief that the higher APM a spec has the better it should be despite it beiong so complicated that for the vast majority is unable to avhieve. I so wish everyone would stop thinking that they were as skilled as the Snowcrows and Hardstuck people- It's bad for the philosophy behind balance.

[Cyninja.2954]

21 minutes ago, Kuma.1503 said:

Power Mech post nerf is sitting at roughly 33-34k DPS. 

Slightly below Scrapper and Holo. 

1-2k below scourge

3-4k below virtuoso. 

At this point it's in line with the other ranged specs. The above have a higher skill floor than mech (not a high bar mind you), but are more rewarding, and only take a minor amount of effort to achieve those results. 

I believe this is what people call "Balance perception inertia". Players aren't going to stop complaining that Mech is OP until it is objectively undertuned (32k or below)

 

For me personally, I am fine with this tuning. I doubt though we will see the end of it here.

That will depend entirely on class or rather elite spec representation. Wingman stats were at 33-35% representation for instanced content. Official comments put mech at over 20% according to developer data.

It depends entirely where the developers feel comfortable with a class being represenation wise. If it was me, I'd aim for around 10%-15% max, given there are 9 classes and 3 elite specs each. Maybe mech numbers will go down (I'm sure they will to some extent) to not make more actions necessary, maybe not. 

The spec even in it's tuned down state remains strong and more than able to deal with any content in the game (besides maybe HT CM). So my guess is a lot of more casual players will stick with it, which in turn might force the developers hand. Time will tell.

Edited October 7, 2022 by Cyninja.2954

[KeoLegend.5132]

I EXPECTED a nerf for too long.

Now im a Mech main and don't want any changes at all!

Leave Mech as is!

[Ashen.2907]

6 hours ago, Malus.2184 said:

There is no debate in this.

If there is no debate then it is not based on scientific principles.

[jcgreece.6870]

5 minutes ago, Ashen.2907 said:

If there is no debate then it is not based on scientific principles.

There can't be a debate when half the community thinks that because mech was doing good in open world it should be nerfed in every content, without even considering that in open world there are multiple enemies and piercing. How can you even have a dialogue?

[Malus.2184]

38 minutes ago, Ashen.2907 said:

If there is no debate then it is not based on scientific principles.

The debate has already been had when this science was peer-reviewed and put into tectbook. Debates are if new things are added. Then a debate over the validity of the new stuff will be had. And up until someone upsets the ZPD it's a scientific theory, that means it's 99% certain with the knowledge we have.

[Asum.4960]

1 hour ago, Malus.2184 said:

Then please explain to me what the ZPD is?

You not just insulting my intelligence with that, but that of the entire GW2 community - by insinuating that DH, Reaper and co. are simply outside of their intellect to learn to play sufficiently on their own, and that this is the sole (or even majority) reason people aren't playing them over Mech - especially to a point of such a massive discrepancy of representation between specs. 

 

Rifle Power Mech simply does too much, too much of the time, with too little input, compared to everything else in the game. 

There are and always have been plenty of Low-Intensity builds which are capable of clearing all content in the game in the hands of just about any player - and that's a good thing. The reason builds like Auto Attack Herald and co. never reached 1/3 of all played specializations in organised group content though is because they never were strictly better than everything else in the hands of every player. Or so put it simply, unlike Mech, they weren't overpowered. 

 

Even if Rifle Power Mech benched just 30-32k DPS, it would still be the best choice to play for the vast majority of players, and have them perform superior to most ~38k Benching builds in real encounters, simply due to it's ease of use and DPS uptime afforded by it's lack of rotation and being entirely 1200 ranged. 

Such a Build having a 50k burst and benching anywhere close to 35k or above on a static golem is simply unhealthy for the game.

 

Sincerely, a Power Mech player and enjoyer (who neither hates the spec, nor want's to see it become useless - just balanced).

 

 

 

[Yellow Rainbow.6142]

7 hours ago, Asum.4960 said:

And then you hit me with that, really?

I've just been playing Strikes as of late, but in those encounters at least I've personally never seen Mechs (who weren't literally just auto attacking) get out DPS'ed in boss DPS by anything else. Not even remotely close. 

 

Play other than strikes. You will see.

[lorddarkflare.9186]

4 hours ago, Cyninja.2954 said:

For me personally, I am fine with this tuning. I doubt though we will see the end of it here.

That will depend entirely on class or rather elite spec representation. Wingman stats were at 33-35% representation for instanced content. Official comments put mech at over 20% according to developer data.

It depends entirely where the developers feel comfortable with a class being represenation wise. If it was me, I'd aim for around 10%-15% max, given there are 9 classes and 3 elite specs each. Maybe mech numbers will go down (I'm sure they will to some extent) to not make more actions necessary, maybe not. 

The spec even in it's tuned down state remains strong and more than able to deal with any content in the game (besides maybe HT CM). So my guess is a lot of more casual players will stick with it, which in turn might force the developers hand. Time will tell.

 

This is where it gets tricky because the spec has at least 3 really good meta builds. Part of the over-representation is due to that.

[lorddarkflare.9186]

2 minutes ago, Yellow Rainbow.6142 said:

Play other than strikes. You will see.

 

Yup. Getting consistently out-DPS by other classes in T4s now. Especially soulbeasts. At least when everyone knows what they are about. Still consistently shred when the fight is gone to crap since it is easier to deal with mechanics.

[Malus.2184]

39 minutes ago, Asum.4960 said:

You not just insulting my intelligence with that, but that of the entire GW2 community - by insinuating that DH, Reaper and co. are simply outside of their intellect to learn to play sufficiently on their own, and that this is the sole (or even majority) reason people aren't playing them over Mech - especially to a point of such a massive discrepancy of representation between specs. 

You're the one implying  that I said that. I merely said that where the floor is to where people expect them to be in performance is too large a gap for most people to cross, and then they grow frustrated and quit, where they moist likely gravitate to a spec that has simpler rotation and a small gap between the skill floor and the skill ceiling. And I think that people would be okay with that if the gap was a slope that went up, instead, it's a straight line that goes up.

You also avoided answering the question I asked. What is the ZPD?

Edited October 7, 2022 by Malus.2184

[SoftFootpaws.9134]

Every Machinist in the squad (except the HAMs) are still the top DPS in every content I do. Maybe its different on a golem, but in real-world situations nothing seems to've changed. Other classes just can't keep their damage up under stress, while Machinist still has zero problems doing so.

 

The more stressful the content, the higher the gap seems to be.

Edited October 7, 2022 by Mariyuuna.6508