Unique Weapon's should be unlocked for the entire Class

[Mell.4873]

I don't think there are any weapons that are uniquely tied to a profession mechanic so why can't we use any weapon that an elite unlocks.
Essentially I want to use the not-Unleashed Hammer on the entire Ranger since I like it so much.

Edited October 11, 2022 by Mell.4873

[Fueki.4753]

Unlocking elite specialization weapons for the entire profession would cause unfair advantages, while being entire useless for others.

Necromancers, for example, would get access to Pistol and Torch. This could give birth to even more disgusting condition damage, which simply needs to not happen.

Guardian, Mesmer and Elementalist also could also combine elite specialization for complete weapon sets.

Meanwhile, Revenant's, Thief's, Engineer's and Ranger's elite specialization's weapons can't be combined.

The last point largely (but not fully due to the main hand dagger) also applies to Warrior, which gets three offhand weapons competing with each other.

You can clearly see that some professions (especially Necromancer) get too much of an advantage out of such a change.

Thus, having the weapons exclusive to the specializations is the correct choice.

[Ruisenior.6342]

   Since the recent changes and homogenization between classes, at this point i would like to Anet just make a multiclass character so i can play whatever i want at any moment.

[JusticeRetroHunter.7684]

9 hours ago, Ruisenior.6342 said:

   Since the recent changes and homogenization between classes, at this point i would like to Anet just make a multiclass character so i can play whatever i want at any moment.

You’re misusing the term homogenization a bit.
 

I spent years on this forum curating and talking about this topic on a scientific level…now that it’s a buzzword it’s part of my moral obligation to make sure people talk about this topic properly.
 

Homogenization means just as it does in science. It means uniformity, sameness. In contrast heterogeneity means differentiation, uniqueness.

 

The Homogenization problem is related to the problem of balance, asked in the form of a question: How does one make a perfectly balanced game while also having the game be diverse?

 

the nieve answer to this question is: make all skills equal…meaning making skills do the same damage, have the same effects, same cool-downs, etc…

 

the above is what a homogenization philosophy is doing: the attempt to make things mathematically equal to one another.  The problem with it is that it destroys diversity. You simply can not have a game where every skill is exactly the same while also having the game be diverse where the skills are different. The statement itself is trivial, but you’d be surprised how many people refuse to understand that simple fact.
 

We obviously see nature capable of doing the diversity and balance thing that the game needs to have. The kind of balance one sees in biological systems, which as we know is the most diverse, most balanced and robust system that we know exist and these words (homogeneity and heterogeneity) originate from the studies of biology on Earth. But the way nature works and the how the games balance philosophy works run contradictory to each other. Nature clearly doesn’t “make everything equal” because if it did it wouldn’t have the immense diversity that it does. So clearly one has to approach the balance problem some other way.

 

The thing you are talking about (opening options via multi-class) and homogenizing skills (the games balance philosophy) are not the same procedure. Opening options increases diversity, where as homogenization of those options, by trying to make them equal, destroys diversity.

 

That distinction is important because it is one of the central reasons driving the balance problem. Explaining why can be immensely difficult…it requires study of this problem and the related sciences involved…but to put it in a simple buzz phrase: Diversity = Balance…where balance is a result of a system being more and more diverse.

 

Understanding why the above is the case is non-trivial. It can be very difficult to understand why its true but it is easy to observe that it has to be the case anyway. Biology on Earth is obviously very diverse…and obviously very balanced. The reason it is balanced is because things exist to counteract the existence of other things from homogenizing the system. Therefor more diversity equates to a more balanced system just by proxy of “more things existing.” 
 

Relating now to the OP: opening options means more builds existing…so I’m sure people can figure out based on what was said above, that the OP has the correct intuition.

Edited October 10, 2022 by JusticeRetroHunter.7684

[Asum.4960]

18 hours ago, Fueki.4753 said:

Unlocking elite specialization weapons for the entire profession would cause unfair advantages, while being entire useless for others.

Necromancers, for example, would get access to Pistol and Torch. This could give birth to even more disgusting condition damage, which simply needs to not happen.

Guardian, Mesmer and Elementalist also could also combine elite specialization for complete weapon sets.

Meanwhile, Revenant's, Thief's, Engineer's and Ranger's elite specialization's weapons can't be combined.

The last point largely (but not fully due to the main hand dagger) also applies to Warrior, which gets three offhand weapons competing with each other.

You can clearly see that some professions (especially Necromancer) get too much of an advantage out of such a change.

Thus, having the weapons exclusive to the specializations is the correct choice.

While there would certainly be major balance concerns with such a change (which is likely a big part of why Anet hasn't done it, and likely never will), this seems like a fairly strange argument - especially concerning Necromancer. 

 

It also seems quite arbitrary on what you deem could be "combined" or not. 

Why couldn't a condi Daredevil potentially combine with Specter's Scepter, a Condi Untamed try it's hand at Soulbeasts Dagger, a power Herald use Vindicator's Greatsword, a Holosmith use Scapper's Hammer, etc.?

Ofc the Profession with historically the least amount of viable weapon choices would benefit greatly from such a change (especially not considering a necessary balance pass that would require) - but if anything that sounds like an argument for it. 

It's not like Necro especially in PvE just having a single viable Condi weapon with Scepter (and even that just with a dedicated GM Trait), and essentially no good off-hand or even a single decent power option, outside of Elite Specs, is a good thing. 

Isn't it kind of sad that Harbinger is essentially the only Necromancer spec that actually fully utilizes weapon swap, because it happens to offer a Main-hand in Pistol of the same type (condition damage) as the only viable core weapon - while power Reaper basically just camps Greatsword and Scourge camps Scepter/Torch?

 

Of course the better first solution there is a major core weapon rework/buff, but that would lead to the same fear of yours of the Profession actually having viable weapon options like most other Professions. That's hardly an unfair advantage though, as much as correcting a decade long disadvantage.

Edited October 11, 2022 by Asum.4960

[the krytan assassin.9235]

I wouldn't mind adding some weaponry to the core set, simply because some classes simply lack some weapon variation atm. For example elementalists only got 2 profession offhands atm (dagger, focus). Focus is more traited towards condi and dagger towards power. (And warhorn is Tempest specific support). This simply means that you'll always end up using the same weapon sets over and over for every single Espec. Aslong as weapon sets are properly balanced it shouldn't matter to much that you are able to use extra weapons. Also it would open up alot more options towards build variety. 

[Mell.4873]

I think over

On 10/11/2022 at 3:19 AM, Fueki.4753 said:

Necromancers, for example, would get access to Pistol and Torch. This could give birth to even more disgusting condition damage, which simply needs to not happen.

Torch: Without Demonic Lore which is solely provided by Scourge would mean less overall damage. I guess it could be better than any other condition offhand but not by much.

Pistol: In terms of Torment applications you would are going to hard pressed to eliminate Scepter from most builds rather it could be a weapon swap and again you wont have access to Dark Gunslinger so you will not stay on Pistol long.

 

I think most of the Weapon specific profession mechanic can be straight up removed when used on another Elite Specialization. For example the extra ability on Holosmith sword when above 50% heat level can just be removed. This would not invalidate the weapon as a healthy alterative to Pistol but instead be a good option for power builds who want to run a shield.

Another healthy example is Staff on Druid, this would allow other Ranger professions to heal there Spirits since currently there is almost no way to of doing it since they need direct heals.

Edited October 11, 2022 by Mell.4873

[Logos.3042]

On 10/9/2022 at 10:44 PM, Mell.4873 said:

I don't think there are any weapons that are uniquely tied to a profession mechanic so why can't we use any weapon that an elite unlocks.
Essentially I want to use the not-Unleashed Hammer on the entire Ranger since I like it so much.

Initially I thought you meant to give each profession a unique weapon to their profession only, ie, warrior gets 2h axe, engi gets crossbow etc etc and no other classes get them.  Sort of cool, but too much wasted potential for crossover…. But that wasn’t your suggestion!

 

I too want MH sword or mace on Engi, just not for   Holo or mech per se.  too bad abet balances around this… maybe it would be easier to balance with it spec wide?

[Angesombre.4630]

I am against it because yes we could give the weapons of each specialization to all but the problem comes from the balancing after a weapon can be good on a specialization but very strong on another. After that the weapon will be nerfed for all specializations.
I understand your request but it's on a balancing point of view that I disagree.

Otherwise it would be necessary to give individual stats for each specialization.

Edited October 12, 2022 by Angesombre.4630

[otto.5684]

This could be nice to play around in OW. In pvp, or even instanced pve this will be a balance disaster.

[Kilometal.6495]

This would require massive amount of balancing the game is not ready for. On the other hand, some of the core classes are in dire need of weapons, such as engineer power main hand or necro power weapon other than axe/focus.

 

So what if, core classes gain accesses to these weapons after fully unlocking their respective specialization, while elite specs are forced to "specialize" in the weapon. For example, core mesmers can use shield, axe, and dagger after training chronomancer, mirage, and virtuoso traitlines.  Chronomancer is still limited to shield only, mirage axe only, and virtuoso dagger only.

 

This would open up some weapon combinations on core classes and slightly bridge the gap between core and elite. I also don't think weapons on core classes would be overpowered since they do not have support from profession mechanism and traits, meaning no ambushes/dual attacks/heat etc (except maybe sword ele, which is better than dagger ele without having to play with dual elements).

[Mell.4873]

On 10/18/2022 at 5:46 PM, Kilometal.6495 said:

This would require massive amount of balancing the game is not ready for. On the other hand, some of the core classes are in dire need of weapons, such as engineer power main hand or necro power weapon other than axe/focus.

 

So what if, core classes gain accesses to these weapons after fully unlocking their respective specialization, while elite specs are forced to "specialize" in the weapon. For example, core mesmers can use shield, axe, and dagger after training chronomancer, mirage, and virtuoso traitlines.  Chronomancer is still limited to shield only, mirage axe only, and virtuoso dagger only.

 

This would open up some weapon combinations on core classes and slightly bridge the gap between core and elite. I also don't think weapons on core classes would be overpowered since they do not have support from profession mechanism and traits, meaning no ambushes/dual attacks/heat etc (except maybe sword ele, which is better than dagger ele without having to play with dual elements).

I think the balancing factor will just down simple fact that the weapon is best used in the profession it came from. They could also tone down the animations/sound like for Chronomancer Shield to reflect the lack of time magic.

It would also open up your favorite class with a less damaging but options, Dagger on Mirage could be a good ranged alternative to Staff or Chronomancer shield can help Virtuoso survive in WvW.

[Serephen.3420]

On 10/25/2022 at 5:05 AM, Mell.4873 said:

I think the balancing factor will just down simple fact that the weapon is best used in the profession it came from. They could also tone down the animations/sound like for Chronomancer Shield to reflect the lack of time magic.

It would also open up your favorite class with a less damaging but options, Dagger on Mirage could be a good ranged alternative to Staff or Chronomancer shield can help Virtuoso survive in WvW.

Not thinking realistically but just for fun, I would be curious to see how a sword/warhorn catalyst/quick cata would feel. 

[Leo G.4501]

Outlining the different specializations or profession mechanics is probably why it won't happen. Basically, they need to add more skills.

 

Weaver, for example, would need dual skills for hammer.  Or Ambush skills for dagger. Sure, they could probably just fill all those holes up to open up the options but... They could also just... Not do that... Not have well worry about rebalancing them if needed... Basically, going the path of least resistance.

[Mell.4873]

12 hours ago, Leo G.4501 said:

Outlining the different specializations or profession mechanics is probably why it won't happen. Basically, they need to add more skills.

 

Weaver, for example, would need dual skills for hammer.  Or Ambush skills for dagger. Sure, they could probably just fill all those holes up to open up the options but... They could also just... Not do that... Not have well worry about rebalancing them if needed... Basically, going the path of least resistance.

True but at the very least they could just not include them. Weaver duel skills on Hammer could just not be there and instead just add something minor, maybe a small boon. 

In terms of ambushes, that would be tricky but they implemented the old ambush system very fast for Untamed and again they could just not include it and offer a small buff to the primary attack when used with ambush. 

Edited November 2, 2022 by Mell.4873

[Jski.6180]

Core classes should be able to use all the weapons you have unlocked with the elites. Making core classes into the "wepon rack" of the game. This is even more needed after anet removed most of the down side of being an elite spec.

Added note i would love to see hammer on core ele i think it would be fun.

[poop.4183]

On 11/3/2022 at 3:05 AM, Jski.6180 said:

Core classes should be able to use all the weapons you have unlocked with the elites. Making core classes into the "wepon rack" of the game. This is even more needed after anet removed most of the down side of being an elite spec.

Added note i would love to see hammer on core ele i think it would be fun.

And weaver with a hammer , ohh yes 6 new skills 

[Serephen.3420]

On 11/5/2022 at 5:28 PM, poop.4183 said:

And weaver with a hammer , ohh yes 6 new skills 

I can only imagine how that would go with the current #3 skill situation 😅

[Dadnir.5038]

On 10/10/2022 at 4:19 PM, Fueki.4753 said:

Necromancers, for example, would get access to Pistol and Torch. This could give birth to even more disgusting condition damage, which simply needs to not happen.

I wouldn't say that the issue would be condition damages, however the CC creep that such a thing would induce might be a real pain point.

However, the main issue of allowing all specialization to use every weapons would be the need to develop new skills for, now, "old" weapons (And we all know how much the devs hate creating new skills for old things, after all we still have incomplete core utility skillsets after a decade of game lifespan).

- Elementalist would need dual attunment skills for hammer on weaver.

- Warrior would need a primal burst for dagger on berserker.

- Thief would need new stealth attack on staff and scepter for deadeye.

- Mesmer would need an ambush skill for dagger on mirage.

- Ranger would need ambush skills for staff and dagger on Untamed.

I'm not sure whether my list is exhaustive or not but we are already talking about 12 new skills to develop (which is close to what many new spec gain in term of number of skills).

[the krytan assassin.9235]

8 hours ago, Serephen.3420 said:

I can only imagine how that would go with the current #3 skill situation 😅

Tbh i wouldn't mind losing some of the orbs in the dmge rotation. Water and earth Orb dont really contribute to overall dps anyways and air can be skipped aswell aslong as you're running the superior elements trait alongside full zerkers. 

The biggest problem with hammer Weaver would probably be running out of skills to cast due to the class being limited to a 4 sec recharge time on weapon swap. 

[Jski.6180]

On 11/5/2022 at 4:28 AM, poop.4183 said:

And weaver with a hammer , ohh yes 6 new skills 

No hammer on weaver only on core ele. I want the core classes to have all the weapons you unlocked for there elite spec.

[poop.4183]

1 hour ago, Jski.6180 said:

No hammer on weaver only on core ele. I want the core classes to have all the weapons you unlocked for there elite spec.

Not a bad idea , that would be the trade off taking an elite spec : no other e-specs weapons.

[Mell.4873]

5 hours ago, Jski.6180 said:

No hammer on weaver only on core ele. I want the core classes to have all the weapons you unlocked for there elite spec.

3 hours ago, poop.4183 said:

Not a bad idea , that would be the trade off taking an elite spec : no other e-specs weapons.

Again I could see it working with a simple Boon, rather than having the 3rd skill be replaced by a unique one.

It should still retain the ability to have 1-3 is primary element and 4-5 be previous element then the 3rd skill will be something like this Fire + Lighting = self Quickness on skill 3. This would provide Weaver with a much needed easier playstyle as well.

[Kodama.6453]

21 hours ago, Jski.6180 said:

No hammer on weaver only on core ele. I want the core classes to have all the weapons you unlocked for there elite spec.

Problem is that the elite spec weapons are not designed fairly to make this happen. Because some of the weapons require the elite spec mechanic to unlock part of their power.

Some examples of what I mean:

• Holosmith sword: A pretty big chunk of it's power is locked behind having heat tier. Without the boni from being above 50% health, the weapon is pretty bad. ¹
• Untamed hammer: Half of the kit is locked behind the unleash mechanic. Unleash ranger would probably be the default setup, meaning that the hammer basically becomes a damage weapon without access to all the CC of the other unleash state.
• Deadeye rifle: The stealth attack loses ALOT of damage without the malice mechanic.

Then there are classes which get to use basically the whole potential of their elite spec weapons, since they are not interacting with the spec mechanic in any way.

• Warrior
• Necromancer
• Guardian
• Revenant

¹ I know some people will point out here "but then you have a power mainhand weapon to use with shield for core builds", but I don't see the appeal here. Sword without heat is simply not good. I might as well just use the shield with a pistol in that case and fulfill my power damage requirements with a kit, since I don't see myself using the sword as my damage source if I don't have access to heat.

Edited November 10, 2022 by Kodama.6453

[Jski.6180]

3 hours ago, Kodama.6453 said:

Problem is that the elite spec weapons are not designed fairly to make this happen. Because some of the weapons require the elite spec mechanic to unlock part of their power.

Some examples of what I mean:

• Holosmith sword: A pretty big chunk of it's power is locked behind having heat tier. Without the boni from being above 50% health, the weapon is pretty bad. ¹
• Untamed hammer: Half of the kit is locked behind the unleash mechanic. Unleash ranger would probably be the default setup, meaning that the hammer basically becomes a damage weapon without access to all the CC of the other unleash state.
• Deadeye rifle: The stealth attack loses ALOT of damage without the malice mechanic.

Then there are classes which get to use basically the whole potential of their elite spec weapons, since they are not interacting with the spec mechanic in any way.

• Warrior
• Necromancer
• Guardian
• Revenant

¹ I know some people will point out here "but then you have a power mainhand weapon to use with shield for core builds", but I don't see the appeal here. Sword without heat is simply not good. I might as well just use the shield with a pistol in that case and fulfill my power damage requirements with a kit, since I don't see myself using the sword as my damage source if I don't have access to heat.

That the point of running the elite spec over the core. Core classes dont get any thing most of the time by giving them there elite spec wepon you would give them something new that may not work well but it would still be something new.

This is not for balancing this is for keeping the core class relevant even if its just an wepon rack class.