Condition damage

[Sansar.1302]

Condition damage should not be this high.

 

I think condition damage should only be a  extra damage with power damage as the main source for damage with conditions being max 10-15 % of the total damage.

 

And same time remove all grp cleanses  and most of personal cleanses too.

Edited November 6, 2022 by Sansar.1302
bad spelling

[Infusion.7149]

What is the context for this blanket statement?

Conditions are only relevant in small scale PVP and in PVE.

[SoftFootpaws.9134]

Condition damage doesn't even come close to power damage. You're likely confusing hybrid builds (condi+power, which use Viper's and other types of hybrid stats like Celestial) with actual condition builds.

 

I presume you're talking about WvW, where very few players run pure Dire/Trailblazer. Bringer, Carrion, Celestial, Rabid, Rampager, Sinister and Viper are all alot more common despite the memes.


You also see alot of players running Apothecary, Settler, Shaman, Plaguedoctor, but I promise you they're not doing high damage since these stats are purely for bunker builds. This is also why Dire/Trailblazer isn't as common as players think, because like Soldier it has the inherint problem of no healing and thus limited bunkering. Its not actual an effective bunker stat especially on purely regenerative classes (like Ranger).

 

Regardless, hybrid builds still get a huge chunk of their damage from power stats.

Edited November 6, 2022 by Mariyuuna.6508

[Asum.4960]

2 hours ago, Sansar.1302 said:

Condition damage should not be this high.

 

I think condition damage should only be a  extra damage with powerd damage as the main source for damage with conditions being max 10-15 % of the total damage.

 

And same time remove all grp cleanses  and most of personal cleanses too.

Can you elaborate on why and what that would accomplish? 

 

This is pretty much what GW2 was at launch until 2015, when Conditions became a viable damage source to build around, because many players enjoy the idea and gameplay around Damage over Time and wanted more ways to play the game. 

That's why to this day "Condition Builds" are really still somewhat of Power and Condi hybrids, where as Power builds are fairly purely Strike Damage.

[Dawdler.8521]

Since power damage especially when booned up does far more damage than condi and does it far faster, OPs suggestion is like "I die fast today but not fast enough".

[Sansar.1302]

4 minutes ago, Asum.4960 said:

Can you elaborate on why and what that would accomplish? 

 

This is pretty much what GW2 was at launch until 2015, when Conditions became a viable damage source to build around, because many players enjoy the idea and gameplay around Damage over Time and wanted more ways to play the game. 

That's why to this day "Condition Builds" are really still somewhat of Power and Condi hybrids, where as Power builds are fairly purely Strike Damage.

I want combat to be more fun and playing vs condi is not fun and it where not like this before 

[Sansar.1302]

23 minutes ago, Dawdler.8521 said:

Since power damage especially when booned up does far more damage than condi and does it far faster, OPs suggestion is like "I die fast today but not fast enough".

No it about playing or playing vs condi makes me want to quit the game since it is so boring and makes the good combat of guild wars 2 as boring as all other mmos. 

 

Guild Wars 2 combat is best when its close to figthing game like mortal combat or similar and its bad when it trys to mimmic other mmos.

[Dadnir.5038]

31 minutes ago, Sansar.1302 said:

I want combat to be more fun and playing vs condi is not fun and it where not like this before 

You do realize that your definition of what is "fun" isn't necessarily valid for everyone, right? And the game is built so that as many people as possible can find their own "fun" in it.

42 minutes ago, Asum.4960 said:

This is pretty much what GW2 was at launch until 2015, when Conditions became a viable damage source to build around, because many players enjoy the idea and gameplay around Damage over Time and wanted more ways to play the game. 

Strictly speaking, It wasn't that condi builds weren't "viable", it was that 2+ condi builds within the same team had to compete against each other due to the stack cap on damaging conditions, leading the condi damage cap to be at 1 condi build per team which was more than often parazitized and weakened by stray unintentional conditions delivered by strike damage builds. In competitive modes you could obliterate someone through conditions just as easily in the vanilla game than you can do nowadays. In fact, pre 2015, there were already competitive minded people voicing their hate toward conditions and quite a few condi builds had already seen nerfs to soothe these voices (necromancer due to dhuumfire/terror builds, Condi shattercat mesmer build, ranger shortbow gatling... etc.).

[Alcatraznc.3869]

2 hours ago, Asum.4960 said:

This is pretty much what GW2 was at launch until 2015, when Conditions became a viable damage source to build around, because many players enjoy the idea and gameplay around Damage over Time and wanted more ways to play the game. 

That's why to this day "Condition Builds" are really still somewhat of Power and Condi hybrids, where as Power builds are fairly purely Strike Damage.

 

It is more about Anet buffing the crap out of condition than anything. Before 2015, boss used to have a limit cap on condition (25 if memories serve) and whoever apply first gets to deal the dot. But before 2015 condition like burning and poison couldnt be stacked which didnt helped some class like guardian.  Also expertise didnt exist . Fast forward today, new condition have been added, caps on condition removed and expertise has been added on top of that.

 

Through out the year Anet kept buffing and buffing condition to a point it's pretty much disgusting today. And the fact condition only needs 2 stats to work vs 3 for power build is already a big strenght. For PvE it's whatever but for PvP/WvW condition has a lot of thing going for it:

-Condition doesnt break stealth which is a mistake. Gotta love applying torment + confusion and then stealth and letting the condition play for me. 

-Condition is much flexible. Only needing 2/4 stats lets you diversify your build without loosing damage. I sure which power damage wouldnt loose damage when it tries to have toughness and/or vitality.

-Resistance is much less common than protection.

 

So yeah people will say "but in zerg people have a lot of cleanse" which isnt false yes. But if it takes a zerg to be efficient when it comes to condi cleanse, it just highlight even more how stupid condition is small skirmishes. 

 

Also this is just me but what GW2 calls DoT is NOT DoT. It is just berserk burst with extra steps. If I apply 1 stack of burning followed by 10 stack in 2 sec, it should be ticking 1 stack of burning for the first second then instantly 10 stack the next second.

[Sansar.1302]

30 minutes ago, Alcatraznc.3869 said:

 

It is more about Anet buffing the crap out of condition than anything. Before 2015, boss used to have a limit cap on condition (25 if memories serve) and whoever apply first gets to deal the dot. But before 2015 condition like burning and poison couldnt be stacked which didnt helped some class like guardian.  Also expertise didnt exist . Fast forward today, new condition have been added, caps on condition removed and expertise has been added on top of that.

 

Through out the year Anet kept buffing and buffing condition to a point it's pretty much disgusting today. And the fact condition only needs 2 stats to work vs 3 for power build is already a big strenght. For PvE it's whatever but for PvP/WvW condition has a lot of thing going for it:

-Condition doesnt break stealth which is a mistake. Gotta love applying torment + confusion and then stealth and letting the condition play for me. 

-Condition is much flexible. Only needing 2/4 stats lets you diversify your build without loosing damage. I sure which power damage wouldnt loose damage when it tries to have toughness and/or vitality.

-Resistance is much less common than protection.

 

So yeah people will say "but in zerg people have a lot of cleanse" which isnt false yes. But if it takes a zerg to be efficient when it comes to condi cleanse, it just highlight even more how stupid condition is small skirmishes. 

 

Also this is just me but what GW2 calls DoT is NOT DoT. It is just berserk burst with extra steps. If I apply 1 stack of burning followed by 10 stack in 2 sec, it should be ticking 1 stack of burning for the first second then instantly 10 stack the next second.

And the big power nerf a few years ago 😞

 

[Asum.4960]

31 minutes ago, Alcatraznc.3869 said:

And the fact condition only needs 2 stats to work vs 3 for power build is already a big strenght. For PvE it's whatever but for PvP/WvW condition has a lot of thing going for it:

-Condition doesnt break stealth which is a mistake. Gotta love applying torment + confusion and then stealth and letting the condition play for me. 

-Condition is much flexible. Only needing 2/4 stats lets you diversify your build without loosing damage. I sure which power damage wouldnt loose damage when it tries to have toughness and/or vitality.

-Resistance is much less common than protection.

I honestly feel like most of this is psychological dislike. 

 

I don't see how getting power spiked for 10k upon which the enemy goes into stealth is healthier or more balanced than an enemy putting 10k (but probably less) worth of ticking condis on and going into stealth - especially since that has an extra counter in cleanse. 

But fsr some people despise the latter or think it cheap, even though if anything it's more forgiving/"fair". 

 

As for the stat investment disparity, there is some truth to it, but it's also not that extreme - as said, condi builds are hybrid by nature and generally still do relatively significant strike damage for which they need power, precision and to a lesser degree ferocity as well in order to do comparative damage to power builds. 

So while condi builds are indeed more flexible in how they can be build and geared as they benefit from more stats, they don't match the damage output of power builds with three stats by investing into just two either. 

 

What may play a bigger role here isn't the actual damaging conditions, but the debilitating ones, and that condi builds are often more loaded with them at, due to investing into expertise, higher durations - and cleanse as counter having to fight off both their main damage source and their debilitating conditions, while against Power builds cleanse can be entirely targeted against removing annoying debilitation. 

Hence players like fighting power builds more, because in those encounters they are generally less debilitated (especially if they make the choice to invest less into, or play specs with less access to, cleanse). 

 

[Alcatraznc.3869]

1 hour ago, Asum.4960 said:

I don't see how getting power spiked for 10k upon which the enemy goes into stealth is healthier or more balanced than an enemy putting 10k (but probably less) worth of ticking condis on and going into stealth - especially since that has an extra counter in cleanse. 

But fsr some people despise the latter or think it cheap, even though if anything it's more forgiving/"fair". 

Stealth is broken which is why I didnt take into account anything that involve stealth. 

But the fact condi doesnt break stealth just add salt to the injury.

1 hour ago, Asum.4960 said:

 

As for the stat investment disparity, there is some truth to it, but it's also not that extreme - as said, condi builds are hybrid by nature and generally still do relatively significant strike damage for which they need power, precision and to a lesser degree ferocity as well in order to do comparative damage to power builds. 

So while condi builds are indeed more flexible in how they can be build and geared as they benefit from more stats, they don't match the damage output of power builds with three stats by investing into just two either. 

Condition weapon have garbage coefficient on their attack. Things like Engi pistol, Mesmer and Necro scepter are good example. Condition dont always spike damage like power but they dont have to, because in a fight, condition can just apply constant pressure forcing you to dodge or dispel. And if you're running zerk, you're paper which means even a pistol engi can potentially hurt you with its strike damage despite having low power. Condi build tend to add vitality and toughness to their gear so they can survive while letting conditions play the game for them but should you decide to invest into Viper or Sinister instead, you're most likely as paper as zerk but what you lack in raw damage you make it up with deadly condition as well.

1 hour ago, Asum.4960 said:

 

What may play a bigger role here isn't the actual damaging conditions, but the debilitating ones, and that condi builds are often more loaded with them at, due to investing into expertise, higher durations - and cleanse as counter having to fight off both their main damage source and their debilitating conditions, while against Power builds cleanse can be entirely targeted against removing annoying debilitation. 

Hence players like fighting power builds more, because in those encounters they are generally less debilitated (especially if they make the choice to invest less into, or play specs with less access to, cleanse). 

 

 

Debilitating one helps kills your opponent but its rarely the reason why you die. You die because the opponent apply more condition than your ability to dispel. And honestly even condi cleanse are at time unreliable. I've stopped counting the number of death I had because instead of cleansing the 6 stack of burn  I had that lasted for 6 sec, the game decided to cleanse the 1 stack of bleeding with 1 that lasted 1 sec. Or that time when the game decided cleansing 1 stack of vulnerability and cripple is more important than the 5 stack of torment and confusion.

 

Putting aside Thief and some Mesmer, fighting against power build is more fun if you know what attack/chain you can expect. You can dodge the important attack and endure the smaller one. But in condi fight, the small attack just stack up and ends up being as deadly as the important attack .

[Dawdler.8521]

2 hours ago, Sansar.1302 said:

And the big power nerf a few years ago 😞

 

Condi dps was nerfed by 50-75% a year ago or so (50% across the board with the "double duration at half the stacks" change, plus trait nerfs).

[AliamRationem.5172]

55 minutes ago, Alcatraznc.3869 said:

Stealth is broken which is why I didnt take into account anything that involve stealth. 

But the fact condi doesnt break stealth just add salt to the injury.

Condition weapon have garbage coefficient on their attack. Things like Engi pistol, Mesmer and Necro scepter are good example. Condition dont always spike damage like power but they dont have to, because in a fight, condition can just apply constant pressure forcing you to dodge or dispel. And if you're running zerk, you're paper which means even a pistol engi can potentially hurt you with its strike damage despite having low power. Condi build tend to add vitality and toughness to their gear so they can survive while letting conditions play the game for them but should you decide to invest into Viper or Sinister instead, you're most likely as paper as zerk but what you lack in raw damage you make it up with deadly condition as well.

 

Debilitating one helps kills your opponent but its rarely the reason why you die. You die because the opponent apply more condition than your ability to dispel. And honestly even condi cleanse are at time unreliable. I've stopped counting the number of death I had because instead of cleansing the 6 stack of burn  I had that lasted for 6 sec, the game decided to cleanse the 1 stack of bleeding with 1 that lasted 1 sec. Or that time when the game decided cleansing 1 stack of vulnerability and cripple is more important than the 5 stack of torment and confusion.

 

Putting aside Thief and some Mesmer, fighting against power build is more fun if you know what attack/chain you can expect. You can dodge the important attack and endure the smaller one. But in condi fight, the small attack just stack up and ends up being as deadly as the important attack .

I like how your opinion is so biased condi is somehow an advantage in every way.  The fact is it's purely a disadvantage over power.  Viper vs. berserker, for instance.  Berserker is way better off because its damage is delivered instantly and can't be cleansed.  If you're made of paper, you can't afford to wait several seconds for your damage to apply and have to continually reapply it due to cleansing.

It's true that condi deals better damage with 1 or 2 stats than power can, but nobody plays these builds because they lack any sort of pressure.  You need power damage for that.

[Alcatraznc.3869]

8 hours ago, AliamRationem.5172 said:

I like how your opinion is so biased condi is somehow an advantage in every way.  The fact is it's purely a disadvantage over power.  Viper vs. berserker, for instance.  Berserker is way better off because its damage is delivered instantly and can't be cleansed.  If you're made of paper, you can't afford to wait several seconds for your damage to apply and have to continually reapply it due to cleansing.

It's true that condi deals better damage with 1 or 2 stats than power can, but nobody plays these builds because they lack any sort of pressure.  You need power damage for that.

 

I'm not biased that's just fact. If I want to play something that doesnt requires my full concentration while still giving me result, I just pick a condi build and add some toughness or vitality and I'm good to go. The only place where playing condi is less effective is in zerg which I never do anyway because pepega internet.

 

But for small skirmishes and roaming, condition is just too good. 

[Gotejjeken.1267]

On 11/6/2022 at 2:16 AM, Sansar.1302 said:

I want combat to be more fun and playing vs condi is not fun and it where not like this before 

There has never been a time where condi wasn't effective in some form or another, so we can't really say 'it wasn't like this before'.

On the flip side...

21 hours ago, Alcatraznc.3869 said:

 

I'm not biased that's just fact. If I want to play something that doesnt requires my full concentration while still giving me result, I just pick a condi build and add some toughness or vitality and I'm good to go. The only place where playing condi is less effective is in zerg which I never do anyway because pepega internet.

 

But for small skirmishes and roaming, condition is just too good. 

I don't think this is factually true.  Your oppressive condi roamers are mesmers and harbingers, both of which you can counter with projectile denial.  Since I play it a lot, I'd put condi druid up there too, but this can be countered with good CC if you don't play extremely carefully.  

Edited November 7, 2022 by Gotejjeken.1267

[Lan Deathrider.5910]

17 minutes ago, Gotejjeken.1267 said:

There has never been a time where condi wasn't effective in some form or another, so we can't really say 'it wasn't like this before'.

On the flip side...

I don't think this is factually true.  Your oppressive condi roamers are mesmers and harbingers, both of which you can counter with projectile denial.  Since I play it a lot, I'd put condi druid up there too, but this can be countered with good CC if you don't play extremely carefully.  

God I hate immob Druids... 

[solemn.9670]

On 11/6/2022 at 1:14 AM, Mariyuuna.6508 said:

 also see alot of players running Apothecary, Settler, Shaman, Plaguedoctor, but I promise you they're not doing high damage since these stats are purely for bunker builds. 

Oh... I assure you, they are.

Source: fellow disgusting harbinger player + condi has been OP for as long as I can remember and comparing soldiers to I.e. plaguedoctor is not even remotely close in how powerful plaguedoctor is to soldier

[AliamRationem.5172]

2 hours ago, solemn.9670 said:

Oh... I assure you, they are.

Source: fellow disgusting harbinger player + condi has been OP for as long as I can remember and comparing soldiers to I.e. plaguedoctor is not even remotely close in how powerful plaguedoctor is to soldier

Sort of the same way nobody plays Viper because it's a straight disadvantage to use condi on a glass build.  Your damage takes longer and gets cleansed but you're still made of paper.

Would it be fair if condi were also worthless for tankier builds?  They already lack the pressure of power builds.