Unsurprisingly, the cost of End of Dragons Legendaries and Power Cores is NOT the raw materials

[itspomf.9523]

It's the sheer volume of waste that's required to obtain Research Notes.

Allow me to explain:  for full disclosure I started the campaign two days back, and just got my dumpy little jade nuisance yesterday (my feelings on that interaction and set of mechanics is another tirade altogether), and decided that, with a Rank 400 jeweler on hand, I might as well research what I had to do to upgrade said power core.

To my surprise, I can just buy the max-level, Tier 10 Power Core for a modest 33 gold and change, which had me wondering why on Tyria it seemed so absurdly inhibitive through the mastery system.  And then I learned what Research Notes are actually for and how they're obtained.

Imagine my shock when I realized it would legitimately be more cost-effective for me, a player who by all rights should be perfectly capable of crafting whatever I needed after a little exploration and a lot of grinding out masteries, could not even begin to start obtaining this brand new and bogus "currency" which pretty much all End of Dragons crafting is inexplicably reliant upon!

(My thoughts on how this campaign has once again voided all past work and time sunk into obtaining prior masteries notwithstanding, but that is, again, a rant entirely else.)

To get to the close of the matter, consider the following:  to fully upgrade the free Tier-1 power core you obtain through the story to a Tier-10 core, excepting the time and mastery point investiture involved, one requires:

• 1432 Research Notes
• 11 Pieces of Dragon Jade (totalling 44 Pieces of Pure Jade, 330 more Research Notes, 22 Globs of Ectoplasm, and 55 Orichalcum Ingots)
• 5 Bronze Ingots
• 10 Copper Ingots
• 25 each of Iron, Silver, Steel, Gold, and Platinum Ingots
• 50 Mithril Ingots
• 15 more Orichalcum Ingots
• and 1 Xunlai Electrum Ingot (10 more Gold Ingots, 20 more Silver and Platinum Ingots, 50 more Mithril Ingots, 1 more Glob of Ectoplasm, and 10 Thermocatalytic Reagents)

Using current market rates at the time of writing, that's ... a piddly 12 gold, 84 silver, and 97 copper, with Orichalcum and Ectoplasm representing the outsized portion of that cost.

In short, it's the kind of thing a player with absolutely no stockpiled materials could obtain outright from the market within a week of completing Dailies.

So where does that extra 21 gold come from?  The inordinate amount of high-grade crafted items which have to be destroyed to obtain Research Notes in any suitable quantity.

What astounds me is that ANet apparently could not come up with a more elegant solution, such as requiring some number of regional Writs (or 50x the summed quantity in Imperial Favors and either a smattering of Unusual Coins or Jade Slivers) to be traded to a Xunlai representative NPC, to convert the requisite Pure Jade into Dragon Jade and obtain the necessary "catalyst" to bond the newly fabricated Power Cores for jade tech purposes.

This would not only make Xunlai Jade feel more prominent within the world of Cantha and their technological dominance of the economy more apparent, but eliminate a completely fruitless (and frankly backward) system of obtaining yet another meaningless currency -- and, perhaps, even bolster the rallying cry of the Jade Brotherhood over the bureaucratic nightmare that is simply reaching New Kaineng City to make said transactions.

[mythical.6315]

You’ll see this same thing on many other items in the game where the account-bound materials account for a large percentage of the overall cost. 

[Khisanth.2948]

Not in materials? 55% of a gen3 is from summoning stones, ambergris and mystic coins. 55% of the cost is not cost? =_=

Is this supposed to be some sort of philosophical discussion? "Truly valuable things are priceless."?

[IAmNotMatthew.1058]

Isn't it like 15 gold to get 3k Research Notes?

The T10 Core is 33 gold on TP, crafting it costs 20 or so gold to craft it, probably less considering how I usually count with 1 Note=50 copper.

[Sobx.1758]

You don't even need to craft them, you can always buy them ("them" being items to turn into research notes). Either way, it's still material cost, not sure how you concluded it's anything else.

[Silent.6137]

1 hour ago, itspomf.9523 said:

a piddly 12 gold, 84 silver, and 97 copper

How did you come up with that number?

I assume you're using Buy Price. At Sell price, if you would to buy them all from TP, it'll cost 18g 38s 34c just for all the materials excluding Reasearch Notes. Using the cheapest method to obtain Research Notes, it'll cost 9g 81s 87c. Prices are usually a little higher the more you try to craft and salvage. That's 28g 20s 21c to craft a Tier 10 core. At current Sell Price, the difference is 5g 47s 58c (33g 67s 79c - 28g 20s 21c). That 5g is the opportunity cost for the time and effort to craft the item. Craft T10 cores to make gold, or go out and farm gold and have fun.

Edited December 1, 2022 by Silent.6137

[Cronospere.8143]

The one good thing research notes is doing is making crafting more valuable to do. 

Not sure if its still worth it though. 

[Arewn.2368]

Crafting items to turn into reasearh notes is another price equalizing force and sink for raw materials, which playes are constantly getting from salveable gear or direct loot.

 

The main problem with research notes was the process of crafting them, which has since been addressed. 

I don't think the cost is a problem. You can argue about whether its too expensive or not, but they would have made it costly one way or another. And we already require all of the mentioned EoD specific materials and currencies for a lot of things.

There's already a ton of lore fluff about jade and jade tech. Too much, if you ask me. No reason to add more.

[Khisanth.2948]

32 minutes ago, Cronospere.8143 said:

The one good thing research notes is doing is making crafting more valuable to do. 

Not sure if its still worth it though. 

At least gossamer finally has a use.

[Player.2475]

I used to hate research notes when they first came out, but now that I became an avid crafter of T10 cores and decent modules for each of my characters, I can appreciate the dynamic it creates. Essentially all the materials and insignias that are the least desirable and the cheapest end up being the core of the most cost-effective research note recipes. 
As a result, the demand for them goes up, and suddenly that crappy claw that would've been 6c is now 30c.
That insignia that would've been 10s because no one in their right mind would want to craft them for any reason other than to level crafting, is now 40-60s, because it crafts an item that gives 75 research notes.
Soon, it becomes less optimal to craft them from these, moving the rest of the redundant cheap items to a sort of equilibrium where they're still relevant.

I prefer this. I just wish low level crafting was also viable, because then we could finally have a use for those T1 trophies that are only good as vendor trash.

[Khisanth.2948]

8 minutes ago, Player.2475 said:

I used to hate research notes when they first came out, but now that I became an avid crafter of T10 cores and decent modules for each of my characters, I can appreciate the dynamic it creates. Essentially all the materials and insignias that are the least desirable and the cheapest end up being the core of the most cost-effective research note recipes. 
As a result, the demand for them goes up, and suddenly that crappy claw that would've been 6c is now 30c.
That insignia that would've been 10s because no one in their right mind would want to craft them for any reason other than to level crafting, is now 40-60s, because it crafts an item that gives 75 research notes.
Soon, it becomes less optimal to craft them from these, moving the rest of the redundant cheap items to a sort of equilibrium where they're still relevant.

I prefer this. I just wish low level crafting was also viable, because then we could finally have a use for those T1 trophies that are only good as vendor trash.

If the higher tier stuff are valuable enough it can become worth it to convert those upwards.

[Silent.6137]

9 hours ago, itspomf.9523 said:

The inordinate amount of high-grade crafted items which have to be destroyed to obtain Research Notes in any suitable quantity.

What astounds me is that ANet apparently could not come up with a more elegant solution.

I doubt many will be opposed to better solutions. However, your post is somewhat misleading. Starting with the cost of the items: Jade Bot Core: Tier 10 - full list of mats required in NOTES. Time and efforts are very important commodities. Otherwise, everyone will be crafting them to sell. In addition, I would hardly call those items that players craft to salvage "high-grade crafted items". Of course, higher grade items will give more RN but with the recent changes to salvaging, there is no good reason to craft anything other than the most basic items.

8 hours ago, IAmNotMatthew.1058 said:

Isn't it like 15 gold to get 3k Research Notes?

The T10 Core is 33 gold on TP, crafting it costs 20 or so gold to craft it, probably less considering how I usually count with 1 Note=50 copper.

You'll just need 1423 RN for a T10. Even crafting the cheapest items, it'll cost a little bit more than 50c - more in the range of 65-70c per note.

Edited December 2, 2022 by Silent.6137

[Hashberry.4510]

18 hours ago, itspomf.9523 said:

dumpy little jade nuisance

😂😂😂

[Astralporing.1957]

17 hours ago, Silent.6137 said:

How did you come up with that number?

I assume you're using Buy Price. At Sell price, if you would to buy them all from TP, it'll cost 18g 38s 34c just for all the materials excluding Reasearch Notes. Using the cheapest method to obtain Research Notes, it'll cost 9g 81s 87c. Prices are usually a little higher the more you try to craft and salvage. That's 28g 20s 21c to craft a Tier 10 core. At current Sell Price, the difference is 5g 47s 58c (33g 67s 79c - 28g 20s 21c). That 5g is the opportunity cost for the time and effort to craft the item. Craft T10 cores to make gold, or go out and farm gold and have fun.

Actually, the 5g is just TP tax. The 33g67s79c sale price, when we factor in the TP tax, results in seller getting 28g62s62c. That means if you're buying mats for sell price, the gain is barely above 40s (although it gets better if you use buy prices, as you should - when buying from everyone else than me, of course).

Still, i do have to agree with OP that the Research Notes system is unnecessarily convoluted for no good reason (unless the goal is to annoy players).

[Gehenna.3625]

27 minutes ago, Astralporing.1957 said:

Still, i do have to agree with OP that the Research Notes system is unnecessarily convoluted for no good reason (unless the goal is to annoy players).

I also agree with the OP on that, but I do get strong feelings of déjà vu...as if we've discussed this topic many times before.

[Khisanth.2948]

3 hours ago, Astralporing.1957 said:

Still, i do have to agree with OP that the Research Notes system is unnecessarily convoluted for no good reason (unless the goal is to annoy players).

Then we'll have to throw the entire crafting system under the bus since the only difference is literally 1 click.

[Astralporing.1957]

1 hour ago, Khisanth.2948 said:

Then we'll have to throw the entire crafting system under the bus since the only difference is literally 1 click.

If the main purpose of the crafting system was to create a currency, then yes, we'd probably need to throw it under the bus and create something better.

[IAmNotMatthew.1058]

14 hours ago, Silent.6137 said:

You'll just need 1423 RN for a T10. Even crafting the cheapest items, it'll cost a little bit more than 50c - more in the range of 65-70c per note.

I forgot to mention the 3k notes are for the gen 3 Legendaries.

[Silent.6137]

5 hours ago, Astralporing.1957 said:

Actually, the 5g is just TP tax. The 33g67s79c sale price, when we factor in the TP tax, results in seller getting 28g62s62c. That means if you're buying mats for sell price, the gain is barely above 40s (although it gets better if you use buy prices, as you should - when buying from everyone else than me, of course).

Still, i do have to agree with OP that the Research Notes system is unnecessarily convoluted for no good reason (unless the goal is to annoy players).

Ah, I forgot to factor in the TP tax. I knew there was something there since I'd checked it ages ago to see if it was a viable way to make gold. You do get some returns but not enough for most to bother with crafting and selling them.

With a new Xpac, we should expect a new currency. But there are way too many currencies and there should be a Central Currency Exchange such as the Gem/Gold exchange. Research Notes per se, I have no problem with them since they are just another method for obtaining certain items. Without it, we'll still be doing the same amount of steps/work but in another way.

Edited December 2, 2022 by Silent.6137

[Khisanth.2948]

7 minutes ago, Astralporing.1957 said:

If the main purpose of the crafting system was to create a currency, then yes, we'd probably need to throw it under the bus and create something better.

Either you are claiming the whole crafting system is unnecessarily convoluted or you are claiming a single click is unnecessarily convoluted. It is hard to believe that a single click can be considered convoluted much less unnecessarily convoluted which leaves only the crafting system itself as being unnecessarily convoluted.

The process is basically the same. The only difference is whether you end up with an item or some currency. The process cannot be simultaneously fine and not fine.

If the claim is that the crafting system sucks and we should get rid of it then I guess the second half of the original post can be construed as such but both power cores and EoD legendaries are tradeable. There is an option to greatly simplify this unnecessarily convoluted process.

[Astralporing.1957]

4 minutes ago, Khisanth.2948 said:

Either you are claiming the whole crafting system is unnecessarily convoluted or you are claiming a single click is unnecessarily convoluted. It is hard to believe that a single click can be considered convoluted much less unnecessarily convoluted which leaves only the crafting system itself as being unnecessarily convoluted.

The process is basically the same. The only difference is whether you end up with an item or some currency. The process cannot be simultaneously fine and not fine.

If the claim is that the crafting system sucks and we should get rid of it then I guess the second half of the original post can be construed as such but both power cores and EoD legendaries are tradeable. There is an option to greatly simplify this unnecessarily convoluted process.

Imagine building a house. Is that convoluted, for the end result you get? I would not say so. Imagine, you only way of earning currency would be to build houses and then destroy them. Wouldn't it be considered a very convoluted way of obtaining said currency? I'd definitely say so.

The process is basically the same, apart from that one step, and yet one is convoluted while the other is not. That's because it's not the process alone that matters. The main difference here lies in that process' purpose.

 

[Silent.6137]

4 hours ago, Astralporing.1957 said:

Imagine building a house. Is that convoluted, for the end result you get? I would not say so. Imagine, you only way of earning currency would be to build houses and then destroy them. Wouldn't it be considered a very convoluted way of obtaining said currency? I'd definitely say so.

The process is basically the same, apart from that one step, and yet one is convoluted while the other is not. That's because it's not the process alone that matters. The main difference here lies in that process' purpose.

 

Bringing real life analogy to a game situation really doesn't make it any more convoluted. They are just simply steps to achieve something. Whether it's done this way or another way, it'll take just as long with as many needed steps. Sone players are quibbling because they want a one-click action to gain items. In other words, it's the same old  "too grindy" complains.

Edited December 2, 2022 by Silent.6137

[Astralporing.1957]

1 hour ago, Silent.6137 said:

Bringing real life analogy to a game situation really doesn't make it any more convoluted.

You are right. My making analogies does not make the Research Notes any more convoluted than it already is. It doesn;t make it any less convoluted either.

1 hour ago, Silent.6137 said:

They are just simply steps to achieve something. Whether it's done this way or another way, it'll take just as long with as many needed steps. Sone players are quibbling because they want a one-click action to gain items. In other words, it's the same old  "too grindy" complains.

Funny how a lot of players complaining about Research Notes had absolutely no issues with old gen1 and gen2 legendary crafting. But yeah, they definitely want something immediately, as one click action (and probably for free too) [/sarcasm]

Now, can we go back to some real discussion instead of trying to win by attempting to paint the opposite side in bad light without actually addressing their arguments? Or is that too much to hope for?

[Zebulous.2934]

Farming flint in Minecraft comes to mind.  Placing a gravel block then digging it up repeatedly inorder for a shard of flint to occasionally pop out.

 

I am glad that this thread exists.  I have been avoiding playing Eod content, but it sounds like I should get my main over there.  I have been procrastinating leveling my crafting professions on my other toons.  From what I have read I am going to be stuck with several exotic tier (or is it ascended?) Account bound profession backpacks. Apparently crafting three or four of those is an efficient way to get a profession to its cap.  At least research notes provides a more satisfying way to recycle those back items.

I suspect they won't generate enough research notes but it is better than salvaging them for a fraction of the material it will take to craft them all.  

Kind of like how it feels more satisfying to collect flint as I explore Minecraft rather than standing there digging up the same block repeatedly.

 

After I do salvage all of those backpacks I suppose collecting research notes will become tedious.

It is a pity that there isn't a way to earn research notes via exploration or while achieving another goal.  Specific boss drops that we can convert to research notes would be nice. Research notes found in chests would be cool too.

 

[Silent.6137]

4 hours ago, Astralporing.1957 said:

You are right. My making analogies does not make the Research Notes any more convoluted than it already is. It doesn;t make it any less convoluted either.

Funny how a lot of players complaining about Research Notes had absolutely no issues with old gen1 and gen2 legendary crafting. But yeah, they definitely want something immediately, as one click action (and probably for free too) [/sarcasm]

Now, can we go back to some real discussion instead of trying to win by attempting to paint the opposite side in bad light without actually addressing their arguments? Or is that too much to hope for?

No, they don't make them any less convoluted but what do you want? They have to design some methods for any achievement steps. It'll be either this or something else.

I have always maintained that anything to make it smoother and better is always welcome. Who doesn't want it to be more fun? But trying to make an extra step in the process is something of a game-breaker? Using Research Notes is no harder than anything else. And making it seems harder than any other steps is simply disingeneous. It's the exaggerations that I'm debating against.

Edited December 3, 2022 by Silent.6137