We need 2 EBs and 0 Desert maps

[SweetPotato.7456]

We should use DRY TOP to replace all the WvW maps.

[Bristingr.5034]

On 12/20/2022 at 10:17 AM, Xenesis.6389 said:

But the fun map wouldn't be available....

You kidding? Jungle Depths would be hilarious to play. Hidden tunnels, Strategic Flight kills by flipping an objective, etc.

[Xenesis.6389]

1 minute ago, Bristingr.5034 said:

You kidding? Jungle Depths would be hilarious to play. Hidden tunnels, Strategic Flight kills by flipping an objective, etc.

I like Auric Basin better 🤷‍♂️

[TheGrimm.5624]

9 hours ago, Xenesis.6389 said:

I like Auric Basin better 🤷‍♂️

 

I admit, considering the complexity and options most HoT maps would be awesome as WvW maps... and they would drive mad most pugmanders as they lose people after each twist. But OMG, the tactics options, my brain hurts considering the options to defend and attack. 🙂 

[Riba.3271]

On 12/21/2022 at 7:42 PM, Ronin.4501 said:

This is...what...your 40th post on getting rid of Desert BL?  Dude, you've beaten this dead horse so many times it's nothing but powdered bone at this point.

The difference is that I have experienced the magnificient WvW where scoring (and server system) were fair and there were 3 popular borderlands to choose from.

Going from 3 to 2 and one side having borderland which tryhards avoid, is a huge change from choice, logicality and competitiveness.  WvW had solid backbone and it pains me to see in such a state. It like traffic lights showing wrong colour half the time: you would just shake your head and say "incompetence.."..

 

We veterans, that have experienced everything, just want to share new players the thrills of the past. Instead we have an amusement park where all the cool rides are closed for no reason.

Edited January 2, 2023 by Riba.3271

[Evenge.4067]

Too many people, like me, love desert map. So, a big NO to this idea. 

Have a nice day. 😉

[Sansar.1302]

Desert map is simply unfun

[subversiontwo.7501]

They should honestly just make all maps EB and have it dynamically generate instances to get rid of queues.

Not because the idea of Borderland maps to feed onto a central map is inherently a bad idea, but because with the lack of effort that ArenaNet puts into WvW they are never going to do a multi-map-type system justice. It is better to lower ambition and improve from there - creating more small variations and iterations on a basic EB design template. I'd rather have 30 similar variations of EB than 3 other maps, 1 of which was made without WvW in mind.

[LetoII.3782]

Bloodstone Fen would be a fun WvW map.

Especially with combat gliding.

[Biermeister.4678]

On 12/20/2022 at 5:59 AM, Riba.3271 said:

They are just that popular and unpopular 😉 In some matchups like T5 EU, Desert map has 8 times less activity than EB. Even guilds these days like to go EB when they can fit.

 

More EBs and less deserts -> More activity.

 

Possibly drop EU to 4 tiers but have 5 maps, 2 EBs and 3 Alpines, then there will be more commanders and guilds can find fights easier.

Desert is the best BL EB is just a gank fest I would drop a alpine for underwater map

 

[Ronin.4501]

10 hours ago, Riba.3271 said:

The difference is that I have experienced the magnificient WvW where scoring (and server system) were fair and there were 3 popular borderlands to choose from.

Going from 3 to 2 and one side having borderland which tryhards avoid, is a huge change from choice, logicality and competitiveness.  WvW had solid backbone and it pains me to see in such a state. It like traffic lights showing wrong colour half the time: you would just shake your head and say "incompetence.."..

 

We veterans, that have experienced everything, just want to share new players the thrills of the past. Instead we have an amusement park where all the cool rides are closed for no reason.

I've been playing WvW since the game went live and have probably spent over 12k hours in the gamemode.  Scoring and server system were fair? Are you referring to the kittenshow that was glicko?? I was on SBI for the past 10 years and after the "Mass Exodus" of all our WvW-themed guilds (led by War Machine), our almost-empty server languished in Tier 1 for another 6 months courtesy of the glicko scoring system.

As for Desert BL, prior to it being introduced a lot of the community were begging for an alternative to Alpine BL because it had grown stale and boring, and despite a lot of players disliking and avoiding Desert BL, there are still a lot of players who enjoy the map and have learned to use playing there as an advantage.

The real problem with WvW is Anet seemed to give up on the gamemode a long time ago, let class imbalance and power creep reach problematic levels, and even now as they're trying to "right the ship" still don't seem to have a solid plan beyond Alliances for the future of the gamemode.

Removing Desert BL will likely only see more players leave the gamemode, not revitalize it.

[Xenesis.6389]

10 hours ago, Riba.3271 said:

the magnificient WvW where scoring (and server system) were fair

Hilarious.

[Forgotten Legend.9281]

11 hours ago, Riba.3271 said:

We veterans, that have experienced everything, just want to share new players the thrills of the past. Instead we have an amusement park where all the cool rides are closed for no reason.

i've been playing since alpha, when the spells were all hand-drawn effects in the game. I took a week vacation to level up to 80, and have been playing the game since the head-start, 3 days before launch. after hitting max level, i spent many hours in WvW, and even after joining a WvW guild, i quickly got bored of Alpine BL. as matter of fact, that map bored me so much that i basically quit the game until Edge of the Mists was introduced. EotM was a much more fun map than Alpine could ever hope to be. Now they both need updates because Alpine is still stale and outdated, and EotM simply doesn't give WvW rewards (like pips and warscore). and i'm not leaving out Desert map when i say maps need updates. either. I posted in another thread my ideas about how all the maps need updating, because they're all outdated.

 

basically my opinion of Alpine is that it IS the amusement park where all the cool rides are closed, so please stop lumping me (an experienced vet since before the beginning) into your opinion to remove my favorite (albeit needing improvement) map. Especially since Alpine is so boring that it made me leave the game for half a year.

[Galmac.4680]

More dessert, less desert I'd say! 😁

[Xenesis.6389]

I'm a veteran player and I love Alpines. 🤷‍♂️

[Ronin.4501]

9 minutes ago, Xenesis.6389 said:

I'm a veteran player and I love Alpines. 🤷‍♂️

But no one is calling for Alpine BL to be removed.

[TheGrimm.5624]

One take away I hope does get thru to ANet, WR is important to people but so are a number of other topics that were around before WR as well and were tabled while they said they were on the WR project before it was shelved for a while. Those other topics are not gone. These threads I hope act as a reminder to newer team members. 

I know Xen, half empty half full, you should expect that from me by now.

[TheGrimm.5624]

1 minute ago, Ronin.4501 said:

But no one is calling for Alpine BL to be removed.

 

Ah....Oops. But I didn't say both, just 1 more. Even said we can keep 2 if we get 5 maps instead of 4 to choose from.

My bad there but it was one way to show the amount of love for DBL that some of us have while still agreeing others might really still love ABL.

[Xenesis.6389]

4 minutes ago, Ronin.4501 said:

But no one is calling for Alpine BL to be removed.

Dude.. I wasn't responding to the original post.. I'm trying to butt in the word war between Riba and Forgotten Legend...

🤡

[TheGrimm.5624]

9 minutes ago, Xenesis.6389 said:

Dude.. I wasn't responding to the original post.. I'm trying to butt in the word war between Riba and Forgotten Legend...

🤡

 

lol.
To be fair to Riba have gone back and forth with them for a long time about maps and due to it I better understand their points and goals, hence why I am not doing much counter points posting though maps are a big topic IMO since we have already done that. I will try and not show my counter thoughts to that since we have already covered that many times and can agree to disagree on things, or Riba I assume that. Riba really wants what they do in the thought that it would bring more people back, and I would hope we all would agree that more people is better for the game mode even if we don't on other things or how that might be done. There was/is still a lot of outcry that the tower to keep roles are not present in DBL and is seen by many as an issue. Riba strongly believes in an even playing field across multiple home maps where the owner of the borderland has a slight edge in spawn to Garri positioning and the towers to keeps have roles to play while moving across the map, and everyone should know what is what on the map. The thought there is that allows for no advantage to anyone since the map is the same and its a matter of how the server handles the map that makes the difference versus differing mechanics. There are also issues in the differences in verticality that favors defenders when given the options to glide that are exacerbated when viewing ABL & DBL. Plus after many posts from a lot of people I think we have some server/regional differences in likes and dislikes across the maps and the only common ground is EBG gets the most action everywhere. Riba, if I have mistaken any of this please correct me so I might better understand.

So I can agree with the intent if not the actions to get there, but I do think the conversations on it might help ANet if they do think about changing the sand in our sandbox. Good hunting!

[Mabi black.1824]

We avoid cutting maps, if there is something you do not like, make your request to modify it, deleting a map is certainly not a solution. indeed I would ask for other new maps, each one will have its own style, more variety, more fun.

I don't even know how to start the work of a programmer. But when I look at the PVE its infinite dimension so accurate in detail, so different in its environments, I can not understand how complicated it can be to create 2 - 3 - 4 new maps for WWW.

[Riba.3271]

9 hours ago, Ronin.4501 said:

Scoring and server system were fair? Are you referring to the kittenshow that was glicko??

Glicko was matchmaking issue, not scoring. Individual matchups were still great and fair. Glicko is actually one of the things I did not like (proof: post history) as it ment that even if you workedto win matchup, it barely mattered and you kept facing dead servers.

 

6 hours ago, TheGrimm.5624 said:

The thought there is that allows for no advantage to anyone since the map is the same and its a matter of how the server handles the map that makes the difference versus differing mechanics. There are also issues in the differences in verticality that favors defenders when given the options to glide that are exacerbated when viewing ABL & DBL. Plus after many posts from a lot of people I think we have some server/regional differences in likes and dislikes across the maps and the only common ground is EBG gets the most action everywhere. Riba, if I have mistaken any of this please correct me so I might better understand.

You are right, old system of 3 alpines and 1 EB would be fair and competitive as well and I wouldn't lynch developers for choosing that. As long as all sides have almost identical map spawns with very little variance: Only EB and which enemy server is hills and bay side on home bl, can the map system be called competitive.

 

I have seen plenty of servers that avoid desert border whole week, guilds that only raid on one kind of border (normally alpine) and scouts that uninstall because there is just nothing going on because they got desert map (and no one responds to reports).All of these make how matchup develop by how maps were distributed. Not exactly competitive. There could also be words how Desert is half or even third of a popular as one alpine map, which obviously fault that skews matchups even further and majority of WvW having extra map to choose from is better.

 

Reasoning behind 2 EBs is just to allow more guilds and commanders to tag up on EB without 60% of it being pugs that are there farming warclaw or pips. Or make defending harder since holding 2 SMs is pretty hard. Reasoning behind 5 maps is that there aren't that many public commanders, at least voice ones, anymore, so having less tiers means more action. Together it becomes better map combination that we have ever seen.

Edited January 3, 2023 by Riba.3271

[Riba.3271]

Just for normal people who are too lazy to check numbers. EU matchups taken from WvW intel (Tuesday 2 PM GMT 3rd Jan 2023):

Map | Total Deaths in a tier. Arranged Tier 5 to 1 | Total Deaths in all tiers

Desert | 6520,   4997,   6949,  5446,  6327     |  Total: 30 239

Bl alp   | 6193,   8275, 10921, 14852, 11918   |  Total: 52 159

Gr alp | 6938,   5596, 11630, 16320, 16502    |  Total: 56 986

EB         | 12007, 22886, 25046, 26057, 32663 | Total:  118 659 deaths

There are 2 things these numbers don't show: EB is very popular thus its deaths are pulled down by queues and single alpine maps total deaths are being pulled down by there being 2 of them.

So the numbers show that Desert isn't very popular and there is actual reason behind having it removed to free up extra map slots for rest of people while fairening up the scoring. Also adding 2nd EB, would definitely easen up the queues and give people what the want.

Edited January 3, 2023 by Riba.3271

[Ronin.4501]

3 hours ago, Riba.3271 said:

Just for normal people who are too lazy to check numbers. EU matchups taken from WvW intel (Tuesday 2 PM GMT 3rd Jan 2023):

Map | Total Deaths in a tier. Arranged Tier 5 to 1 | Total Deaths in all tiers

Desert | 6520,   4997,   6949,  5446,  6327     |  Total: 30 239

Bl alp   | 6193,   8275, 10921, 14852, 11918   |  Total: 52 159

Gr alp | 6938,   5596, 11630, 16320, 16502    |  Total: 56 986

EB         | 12007, 22886, 25046, 26057, 32663 | Total:  118 659 deaths

There are 2 things these numbers don't show: EB is very popular thus its deaths are pulled down by queues and single alpine maps total deaths are being pulled down by there being 2 of them.

So the numbers show that Desert isn't very popular and there is actual reason behind having it removed to free up extra map slots for rest of people while fairening up the scoring. Also adding 2nd EB, would definitely easen up the queues and give people what the want.

OH MY GOD. You keep beating the same dead horse with the same statistics every time you start a thread about how much you don't like Desert BL. Normal people aren't too lazy to check the numbers; normal people DON'T CARE! But you know what those numbers actually show? That there is still a good bit of activity going on in Desert BL. It would be one thing if there were hundreds of different posters starting threads about their dislike of Desert BL, but in reality it's just hundreds of threads all started by YOU.

Do I know players who don't like Desert BL? Yes. Do I know players who don't Alpine BL? Yes. Do I know players who don't like EBG? Yes. That doesn't mean we should delete the maps.

If you don't like Desert BL, the solution should be pretty obvious to you: DON'T PLAY THERE.

[Xenesis.6389]

10 hours ago, TheGrimm.5624 said:

lol.
To be fair to Riba have gone back and forth with them for a long time about maps and due to it I better understand their points and goals, hence why I am not doing much counter points posting though maps are a big topic IMO since we have already done that. I will try and not show my counter thoughts to that since we have already covered that many times and can agree to disagree on things, or Riba I assume that. Riba really wants what they do in the thought that it would bring more people back, and I would hope we all would agree that more people is better for the game mode even if we don't on other things or how that might be done. There was/is still a lot of outcry that the tower to keep roles are not present in DBL and is seen by many as an issue.

Riba strongly believes in an even playing field across multiple home maps where the owner of the borderland has a slight edge in spawn to Garri positioning and the towers to keeps have roles to play while moving across the map, and everyone should know what is what on the map. The thought there is that allows for no advantage to anyone since the map is the same and its a matter of how the server handles the map that makes the difference versus differing mechanics. There are also issues in the differences in verticality that favors defenders when given the options to glide that are exacerbated when viewing ABL & DBL. Plus after many posts from a lot of people I think we have some server/regional differences in likes and dislikes across the maps and the only common ground is EBG gets the most action everywhere. Riba, if I have mistaken any of this please correct me so I might better understand.

So I can agree with the intent if not the actions to get there, but I do think the conversations on it might help ANet if they do think about changing the sand in our sandbox. Good hunting!

I think all maps should be present for everyone to enjoy, regardless of how much hate or love there is for it. Even though it's my least favorite map to visit, I wish anet would have continued to upgrade/tweak desert, I've made suggestions even though I know it's completely pointless.

If people want to go down the path of removing maps cause they think it's not popular and should be replaced for more popular maps to get more people playing..... then that just leads to removing desert and alpines and having 4 ebg/eotm maps then doesn't it. So people should just drop that line of thinking and maybe instead make suggestions on improving the maps they don't like in hopes one day anet will bother to read some of it in 2049 after WR is done.

I also get the problems with the differences in travel times and advantages given in desert and alpines, and why both existing together is not fair/even, I feel the same way, but it was either that or having all desert up at the time and players didn't want that. We ended up with the compromised option instead of the extreme solutions.