defense spellbreaker overperforming unacceptably

[Eddie.9143]

basically 350hp per second, untouchable, 15 sec huge heal with 5 condi removal, mobility, and tons of CC, a chain long enough to 100-0

 

needs nerfing asap, been playing 10  years this is the most OP kitten i've seen so far. it has everything..

[Eugchriss.2046]

lol. 1 breakstun, not panic button. It s really meh

Edited December 21, 2022 by Eugchriss.2046

[Crab Fear.8623]

Most OP thing you have seen in 10 years?

Truly?

 

[Azure The Heartless.3261]

1 hour ago, Eddie.9143 said:

been playing 10  years this is the most OP kitten i've seen so far. it has everything..

 

*sip*

kitten that's crazy, not the untouchable 350 hp per second build 

 

 

[Eddie.9143]

Just now, Azure The Heartless.3261 said:

 

*sip*

kitten that's crazy, not the untouchable 350 hp per second build 

 

 

you'd literally never beat a good one. 

[Azure The Heartless.3261]

7 minutes ago, Eddie.9143 said:

you'd literally never beat a good one. 

 

What an unfortunate development. How should they nerf it? 

[Gotejjeken.1267]

They're annoying, but I fail to see how it's any different than say your average tank tempest or similar. 

The hammer stuns on Spellbreaker may be a bit egregious but they are also pretty telegraphed.  

[Eddie.9143]

23 minutes ago, Azure The Heartless.3261 said:

 

What an unfortunate development. How should they nerf it? 

pretty simple imo, nerf the damage that defense spb can do.  if you go defense you shouldn't be able to kill 100-0 in a 1v1. 

[CalmTheStorm.2364]

1 hour ago, Eddie.9143 said:

basically 350hp per second, untouchable, 15 sec huge heal with 5 condi removal, mobility, and tons of CC, a chain long enough to 100-0

 

needs nerfing asap, been playing 10  years this is the most OP kitten i've seen so far. it has everything..

What build are you facing/struggling with specifically? Maybe we can help you counter it.

 

In general, SpB (and warrior in general) is very susceptible to ranged pressure. If you can kite and fight at ranged, do so. You'll put damage on them, force them to use their heals and dodges, and give them opportunities to make a mistake for you to capitalize on.

 

Even if you're melee, try to stay away from the SpB until you are ready to make an attack of your own. Most of SpB/Warrior's big attacks (and especially their CCs) are highly telegraphed, so stretching the distance of the fight will make those telegraphs a little more obvious and help you react to them.

 

It might sound strange, but the CC specialist Warrior is often fairly weak to CC itself. Most commonly, Warrior's are running endure pain, shake it off, and bulls charge (banner of defense is also very popular now)--that means they have 2 stun breaks and 0 sources of on-demand stab. If you (either alone or with the help of your team) can CC lock them, they are in trouble.  

 

They CAN have a good bit of stab if they are running stalwart strength, but they get no stab at all unless they CC you first. And if they take SS, that means they are not running cleansing ire and are much more susceptible to condi builds.

 

It's also the case that you should adjust your build if you see that you're going to be playing against a SpB or hammer warrior to make sure you have lots of stunbreaks and preferably a source of stab. 

 

(Adapting your build isn't unique to facing SpBs btw; you should bring lots of cleanses when you fight Necro, resistance/immob counters when you fight druid, etc. Knowing the matchup and preparing accordingly is key to success.)

[Lan Deathrider.5910]

It is better in the long run to play the build in question, so as to find the holes in the armor and where it is deficient, than to come onto the forums to call for nerfs to a class that for a very long time has been in the gutter.

What CTS said above is all solid advice if you do not feel like making a Defense Spellbreaker to figure out how to beat it. It would also help to know what build you are playing when you face them. The warriors on the forums are generally very open about how to fight against warriors and are more than happy to help others learn how to fight them.

Simply put, CC lock it, dodge the telegraphs, overloading it with conditions and pressuring it from range will force their CDs out, and/or corrupt/steal their boons you'll be able to spike them down. Some of the telegraphed attacks can even be jumped over without having to dodge. They are not monoliths, they will crumple under the above conditions, they are supposed to give you a run for your money 1v1, but are completely surmountable if you play at an equal skill level.

For instance when I play my necro I save my boon corrupts for when warriors have stability up. Free fear is free.

[Azure The Heartless.3261]

1 hour ago, Eddie.9143 said:

pretty simple imo, nerf the damage that defense spb can do.  if you go defense you shouldn't be able to kill 100-0 in a 1v1. 

Yknow what that's a reasonably targeted suggestion. I'm not certain how anet would do that without damaging core/zerk/bladesworn in the process though

Edited December 21, 2022 by Azure The Heartless.3261

[Lysico.4906]

In before Trevor spouts something silly.      Op.  Sb is fine.  Range them down 

[Mell.4873]

5 hours ago, Eddie.9143 said:

basically 350hp per second, untouchable, 15 sec huge heal with 5 condi removal, mobility, and tons of CC, a chain long enough to 100-0

 

needs nerfing asap, been playing 10  years this is the most OP kitten i've seen so far. it has everything..

Most of the Warrior builds especially Hammer do almost no damage. It's the same thing with Specter. 
If you can just heal through it while pumping out a moderate amount of damage, you will dominate them.

Spellbreaker really only counters burst builds which I guess for sPvP there is alot of them so that is why it works. 

Edited December 21, 2022 by Mell.4873

[Trevor Boyer.6524]

@Lysico.4906

Allow me to explain this from the 1v1 PvP Ladder standpoint. Here we get plenty of time vs. builds like Hammer Spellbreaker being up in our faces during elongated 1v1 situations, where we really get to focus on every small detail of the build vs. build interactions because we aren't worried about everything else going on in the Conquest game around us.

People view Hammer Spellbreaker as either 1) Impossible to deal with, or 2) It's not that different than any other Spellbreaker build we've seen. This is because of how it gets Stability on every CC that it lands. It all amounts down to this effect that Hammer Spellbreaker creates while interacting with the intra-class dynamic:

1. If a class/build has many Stability effects available or instant no-animation defensive skills such as Guardian Focus #5 that can be used at the same time while offensing, that class/build can prevent the Hammer Spellbreaker from actually "disabling" them to begin its Stability cycling. This allows them to be able to land crippling CC chains on the Hammer Spellbreaker to be able to deal damage to it, if not find openings to 1-burst it into the ground with CC chains. Players using these kinds of builds view Hammer Spellbreaker as not too much different than any other Spellbreaker we've seen.
2. If a class/build has too little access to Stability or none at all, they cannot deny the Hammer Spellbreaker of his Stability cycling, and neither can they offense while defensing to land DPS through the CCs when they don't have access to instant no-animation defensive skills such as Guardian Focus #5. This results in a situation where a class is forced to over-utilize the animation-locking defensive skills they possess that prevent them from being able to offense during those time frames. This greatly diminishes the amount of DPS being pumped towards the Spellbreaker to even begin to threaten a kill on it. They have to do this because they cannot afford to get hit even once. If the Hammer Spellbreaker hits them even once, he begins cycling Stability on a CC chain because almost every single strike from a Hammer Spellbreaker is a CC. When it begins cycling CC, any opening the player may have had to land a CC for a burst, is ruined. This puts the Hammer Spellbreaker into a bully position where all he has to do is maintain offensive pressure for a very easy kill. When the other player has no Stability and even if he has access to a couple of stun breaks, it isn't enough. The H Spellbreaker once it begins cycling Stability, puts that player completely on the defense to where if he attempts to deal DPS at all, he can't because he can't land CCs, usually resulting in the attempted offense being a huge mistake, and the player getting himself killed in a single burst from the H Spellbreaker. It is very easy for the H Spellbreaker to bait out a couple stun breaks from any build, when just about every single strike from the H Spellbreaker is a CC. All it has to do is land 1x CC against a player who has no Stab & no stun breaks, and the match is over. They won't be getting off the ground again.

To narrow down exactly what the problem is with Hammer Spellbreaker vs. little to no Stability builds that have no instant use defensive skills that allow offensing while defensing, it is this trait: Stalwart Strength - Guild Wars 2 Wiki (GW2W). The listed duration of Stability from this trait is 5s in pve, 3s in pvp, and only a 1/4th second CD for its activation. First of all, with only a 1/4th second activation CD, it may as well not have a CD at all. That is so short of a time frame that if you were to hit someone with Full Counter, and then go into a Bull's Charge, hit with Dagger #3 and then with Shield #4, you'd have 4-5 stacks of intensity for your Stability. Second of all, 3s duration of the Stability per proc is too long for pvp on a build that almost every strike it throws is a CC. What's happening is that the H Spellbreaker often is cycling 2 stacks of intensity or more with his Stability. This is incredibly easy to maintain because Full Counter also grants Stability Full Counter - Guild Wars 2 Wiki (GW2W) and so this is an easy 2 stack of Stability from a single Full Counter due to Stalwart Strength. When we add in CC chains with Stalwart, the Stab stacks begin to average 2-3 or even 4 on average while in combat, when a good player is wielding the Hammer Spellbreaker.  This means that even if the person stun breaks and gets up from a H Spellbreaker assault, he is looking at needing to burn 2 to 3 or 4 CCs all at once in a chain, to even have a chance to create an opening for counterplay vs. the H Spellbreaker's relentless CC assault. If that player can actually bottom out the Stab stacks and land a burst, he better hope it kills the H Spellbreaker in one go because if the H Spellbreaker gets up, that player isn't going to have offensive resources left and may as well disengage the combat. It's those Stab stacks that 100% completely negates many classes/builds from being able to find any counterplay vs. the H Spellbreaker.

Juggernaut or Lich pulses 3s of Stab once per 3s. So even vs. Juggernaut or Lich, you only need to toss 2x consecutive CCs to actually be able to CC them. The H Spellbreaker's Stability uptime in the hands of a good player is far stronger than even Juggernaut or Lich.

Again, some builds have a lot of Stab & instant use passive shields and what have you, to prevent that Stab cycle on H Spellbreaker, but at least half or more of the classes/builds in the game do not. This is where we get a large disparity of difference in opinion between if people feel Hammer Spellbreaker is somewhat balanced or if it's seriously overperforming.

I don' feel the problem is CC output or DPS output. The problem is Stalwart Strength - Guild Wars 2 Wiki (GW2W). It's allowing the Hammer Spellbreaker to benefit too many stacks of Stability. There are plenty of ways this could be handled. The ICD on Stalwart could be increased, which I feel is the sloppier approach. I feel the healthier approach would be to turn the 3s Stability duration on Stalwart down to 2s. This would make a larger difference in its Stability potential than what most people may realize. It would greatly reduce the amount of Stab stacking that the H Spellbreaker would be capable of, and any stacks he accumulated would diminish more quickly, presenting more frequent opportunities to actually land CCs on the H Spellbreaker for counterplay.

I can't help to imagine how much of an absolute frontline monster this build structure would be in WvW as a Hambow wearing Celestial stats with Durability Runes, sigils of Draining & Absorption "look at what they do in pve/wvw, read it carefully" Superior Sigil of Draining - Guild Wars 2 Wiki (GW2W) - Superior Sigil of Absorption - Guild Wars 2 Wiki (GW2W) draining has no CD and absorption has only 3s CD per player. And then of course the proper food/utility. We're talking ranged AoE power/condi damage, massive CC potential that steals 3 boons per target struck in an AoE, heals the Spellbreaker for 1000 health per target struck in every AoE CC, along with classic Hambow might stacking and infinitely cycling permanent self sustained Stability in conjunction with ALL the boons it is stealing. This build wouldn't need Supports behind it.

Might have to try it out.

Edited December 21, 2022 by Trevor Boyer.6524

[Gotejjeken.1267]

40 minutes ago, Trevor Boyer.6524 said:

Here we get plenty of time vs. builds like Hammer Spellbreaker being up in our faces during elongated 1v1 situations

 

Giggity

[Azure The Heartless.3261]

1 hour ago, Trevor Boyer.6524 said:

@Lysico.4906  This is where we get a large disparity of difference in opinion between if people feel Hammer Spellbreaker is somewhat balanced or if it's seriously overperforming.

I don' feel the problem is CC output or DPS output. The problem is Stalwart Strength - Guild Wars 2 Wiki (GW2W). It's allowing the Hammer Spellbreaker to benefit too many stacks of Stability.

 

If Spellbreaker is really effective vs some of the commonly played builds, and not very effective vs builds that can exploit its weaknesses, it doesn't sit right with me to nerf it to benefit the former group without doing something to adjust for the latter, especially if classes can build to adjust for running into spellbreaker encounters. I feel like situations like the above are a glimpse of what balance looks like, given you can point to multiple classes that have builds that can continue to win that matchup.

If classes having issues vs this just don’t have the kit to answer it, that is another problem entirely; I feel a majority of people -can- adapt to this with utilities or playstyle changes and just choose not to, in favor of running builds that do well vs everything else, and I think the last time we entertained weakening war for that group it fell off the map entirely. 

I'm much less sympathetic unless you just -cant- do anything if you're a certain class/spec of a class.  If your current build has problems, but you have several available on that class or spec that work, you should have to choose what you win vs.

If that sounds unreasonably biased, apologies. I'm wary of people that want things nerfed when they're sitting on several ways to fight it and just don't want to check under their seat.

Edited December 21, 2022 by Azure The Heartless.3261

[Trevor Boyer.6524]

2 hours ago, Azure The Heartless.3261 said:

If Spellbreaker is really effective vs some of the commonly played builds, and not very effective vs builds that can exploit its weaknesses, it doesn't sit right with me to nerf it to benefit the former group without doing something to adjust for the latter, especially if classes can build to adjust for running into spellbreaker encounters. I feel like situations like the above are a glimpse of what balance looks like, given you can point to multiple classes that have builds that can continue to win that matchup.

But they can't win that match up so easily at all because it doesn't really have glaring weaknesses, which is why Hammer Spellbreaker is sitting at #2 best 1v1 spec right under Tools Holo currently. And this isn't speculation, this is hard data from the 1v1 ladder, coming from some of the best sweaty try-hard duelists in NA, changing up build structures looking for ways to counter it.

Between even Eurantien and myself as example, we couldn't devise Ranger builds to be able to beat Peanut on his Hammer Spellbreaker, which I'm not sure If he was often swapping to Sword/Shield/GS Defense Spellbreaker or not, which he may have been doing that later in the season. There are two problems speaking from the Ranger's standpoint, whether it's using Hammer or not: 1) Even if we tweak for a lot of Stab, the pet doesn't get Stab. The H Spellbreaker can just hit the pet and keep getting Stability. Best case scenario you stat for Soulbeast so you can marge so he can't hit the pet, and even then, it brings us to -> 2) The H Spellbreaker removes boons because he's a Spellbreaker. Even when you stat for like Shared Anguish pet swap Stab, Dolyak Stab, Strength Of Pack Stab, it just removes your boons man. A stack of 10 Stab doesn't mean anything when a dude is rocking Absorb/Revo on his Dagger Side and completely resets your boon bar every time he hits you, in conjunction with removing boons on every CC on Hammer side as well. There just isn't anything you can do to equalize the situation of yourself not being able to have Stab, while the H Spellbreaker always has Stab, which always leads to that situation I mentioned in my first post in bullet #2.

But since most people would say "well it's not a 1v1 game" I'll address 5v5 Conquest. In Conquest, we all know that when you have to try and tweak specifically to deal with a monster build like this, in most cases, changing a utility/trait or two, can lead to totally messing up build structure viability to the point that the build will be bad against everything else in the match except for that one thing they are trying to deal with. In the case of the H Spellbreaker vs. Ranger, it is demanding really large changes in any functional Ranger build structure to attempt to seriously deal with it, and then in that case, the Ranger build structures are just functionally useless vs. all the other builds in the match.

All in all, the H Spellbreaker really is rocking too much, and after really trying to tear it apart to figure out how to kill it, I'm telling you it's all in that Stab stacking. It doesn't need to have beyond Juggernaut/Lich level Stab frequency. This is eliminating half or more of the classes/builds in the game from having any method at all to counterplay it.

Furthermore I can say that lowering the 3s to 2s wouldn't effect the H Spellbreaker's match ups very much vs. the things that can already deal with him, due to how the dynamic works. The ones who can already sort of deal with him are the more sustain based builds that don't present nearly as much kill opportunity to begin with. What it would effect though, is presenting a lot more counterplay for the no-stab no-instadefense burst builds that rely on CC to be able to deal damage. That change from 3s to 2s isn't hard nerfing the H Spellbreaker, it's just presenting a weeeeee bit larger margin of opportunity to hit him with a CC for when his Stab drops off a little bit earlier than it does now.

Also would like to note that tonight I am play testing H Spellbreaker myself. After just about 60 minutes of playing this build, I am already as effective at killing other players on my Warrior that I only around 1,000 games played, as I am on my Ranger that I have 16,000 games played. Honestly my play is sloppy on this H Spellbreaker at the moment, but it's so strong that you can mess up so many times and still recover and win because all it takes is to land 1x CC at the right time and that guy isn't getting back up off the ground.

The problem isn't really the Hammer, it's just Stalwart Defense on any Spellbreaker build.

 

Edited December 21, 2022 by Trevor Boyer.6524

[Avatar.3568]

6 hours ago, Eugchriss.2046 said:

lol. 1 breakstun, not panic button. It s really meh

Idk what you Play, but i Run at Minimum 2

[Mell.4873]

1 hour ago, Azure The Heartless.3261 said:

 

If Spellbreaker is really effective vs some of the commonly played builds, and not very effective vs builds that can exploit its weaknesses, it doesn't sit right with me to nerf it to benefit the former group without doing something to adjust for the latter, especially if classes can build to adjust for running into spellbreaker encounters. I feel like situations like the above are a glimpse of what balance looks like, given you can point to multiple classes that have builds that can continue to win that matchup.

If classes having issues vs this just don’t have the kit to answer it, that is another problem entirely; I feel a majority of people -can- adapt to this with utilities or playstyle changes and just choose not to, in favor of running builds that do well vs everything else, and I think the last time we entertained weakening war for that group it fell off the map entirely. 

I'm much less sympathetic unless you just -cant- do anything if you're a certain class/spec of a class.  If your current build has problems, but you have several available on that class or spec that work, you should have to choose what you win vs.

If that sounds unreasonably biased, apologies. I'm wary of people that want things nerfed when they're sitting on several ways to fight it and just don't want to check under their seat.

You are right, the Meta will shift and people counter it.

Same thing happened with Mechanist being so strong which intern made Elementalist its natural counter.

Edited December 21, 2022 by Mell.4873

[Mell.4873]

27 minutes ago, Trevor Boyer.6524 said:

But they can't win that match up so easily at all because it doesn't really have glaring weaknesses, which is why Hammer Spellbreaker is sitting at #2 best 1v1 spec right under Tools Holo currently. And this isn't speculation, this is hard data from the 1v1 ladder, coming from some of the best sweaty try-hard duelists in NA, changing up build structures looking for ways to counter it.

It good then that this is a Team game, and it will be rare to consistently fight 1v1. This means Spellbreakers natural counter is 2v2.

[Hotride.2187]

I'm still playing dagger/shield/gs str spb with featherfoot grace instead of endure pain, in unranked (cause playing this in ranked sometimes gets me hate from p2+ players). So I can compare pretty well to what spb was a few months ago; what I play got some dagger leap dmg buffs and I was finally able to remove endure pain (it bores me).

Defense is really strong right now, it lets the spb sit in someones face long enough to actually do dmg. That hp/s from adrenal healing is really needed. Not a huge fan of it combined with the barrier/aegis or stab/superpseed/resistance from defense or tactics banner, but a stunbreak is sacrificed for it. On average, as good as me or better dagger/shield/gs defense spb is next to impossible for my build to deal with.

The hammer build... dunno. If you can avoid the hammer CCs (its all melee or that burst leap you have to be blind not to see coming) its not obnoxious. I find the dagger/gs defense variant stronger.

But overall it feels like a meta build when fighting someone good on it. It doesnt feel OP like when fighting a good catalyst (what is even the role of catalyst atm? roamer+duelist+team fighter?).

Edited December 21, 2022 by Hotride.2187

[Spellhunter.9675]

28 minutes ago, Mell.4873 said:

It good then that this is a Team game, and it will be rare to consistently fight 1v1. This means Spellbreakers natural counter is 2v2.

Since this is a team game, you now have to deal with other enemies besides spb. And on some builds if you spent just one of your defensive tools you are in weak position vs spb. Also, most defensive cd is longer than spb's offensive cd.

And thanks gods the game doesn't allow doulbe hammer spb in one team in 2v2.

 

@Azure The Heartless.3261 do you really believe current hamm spb is fun to play against?

 

Edited December 21, 2022 by Spellhunter.9675

[Spellhunter.9675]

double post sorry

Edited December 21, 2022 by Spellhunter.9675
double post

[Azure The Heartless.3261]

3 hours ago, Spellhunter.9675 said:

 

@Azure The Heartless.3261 do you really believe current hamm spb is fun to play against?

 

No, it's annoying. 

It was far more annoying and less fun to have warrior just hard lose to most builds before the adjustments to defense, though. And I can name three annoying builds for every class. Annoying isn't the metric by which Anet does or should balance.

Edited December 21, 2022 by Azure The Heartless.3261

[Kodama.6453]

52 minutes ago, Azure The Heartless.3261 said:

No, it's annoying. 

It was far more annoying and less fun to have warrior just hard lose to most builds before the adjustments to defense, though. And I can name three annoying builds for every class. Annoying isn't the metric by which Anet does or should balance.

Now you got me curious, which are the 3 annoying builds for engineer? I guess tools holo is one of them, so 2 more to go. 😜