Nerfing Defense Spellbreaker (suggestion)

[Zekent.3652]

Defense Spellbreaker is clearly overperforming, most of matches got at least 1 Spellbreaker abuser or Catalyst, i think that there are just more Catalyst abusers than Defense Spellbreakers, but we're not talking about ele here.

I really like Spellbreaker, i just don't like to play builds that are clearly gonna be nerfed on my main class, so i played a lot of PvP these 2 weeks trying to get an """unbiased""" opinion playing other classes or other warrior builds against Spellbreakers.

Here's the suggestion:

*FC Doesn't counts as Burst skill IF you're using Defense*

So Defense Spellbreaker FC could get:

-No free adrenal from Burst Mastery.
-No Weakness with Cull the Weak.
-No CDR from Versatile Power.
-A bigger window to be killable.
-Not almost immune to condis with Cleansing Ire combo.

Strength should be the one that bullies the peepos on damage, because it's offensive, it's skilled, it has timings, your mistakes are punished, unlike Defense Spellbreaker, is just ez mode getting a bunch of mistakes and still going, played by op builds abusers, on Strength Spellbreaker this wasn't a thing, it was 100% struggling but you really noticed someone that was good or at least trying to be better on it, someone that really enjoys to play Warrior, and not just the one that jumps on the busted current builds of the game, like it happened with Bladesworn some months ago.

Or just pick the easy way of fixing Versatile Power bug, nerfing FC CDR, putting more nails at the coffin of Strength Spellbreaker, Berserker, Core Warrior and Bladesworn's build variety.

Edited January 5, 2023 by Zizekent.2398

[Dr Meta.3158]

Honestly I would replace full counter with mage bane tether and allow the rest of core warrior traits to be improved without worrying about spellbreaker holding all of warrior back from progress. 

[Grand Marshal.4098]

Just remove the daze from FC and make FC perform a boonrip baseline should it land. 

This makes it less cheesy to fight against, does not guarantee immob from No escape and can be reliably avoided. 

I don't think it should get the new Berserk Mode approach of counting as a Meditation, since seldom does that work and leaving it with no skill type would be meh. 

Banner of Tactics is also to blame with what defensive ability it cooks for its purpose. 

Other than that, Defense being playable and hammer as well, is def something Id like to keep around. 

If anything, Strength requires a buff to compete dmg-wise since Defense currently has 3 stackable dmg modifiers. 

Aggressive Onslaught needs the speed buff removed for something else that benefits builds, like under the effects of Quickness ignore chill and slow. 

 

[DemonCrypto.6792]

i don't get why people are upset by spellbreaker and FC now.

I mean just because the last rework on a core trait line made them better, doesn't mean it's a perfect and unstoppable juggernaut.

It has big flaws and can be  countered.

 

just because war is competitive now doesn't mean it is on the same level of abuse other classes can do.

What we experience is a bias , because it's new we are not trained to react in a good manner when encountered.

 

hammer spellbreaker isn't OP(even if really better then before) it's just perceived like this, until we learn and adapte to this new player

 

(seriously i have been farming this kind of war for two weeks. Yes there is good ones, but with range pressure , most crumble easly).

 

[Dr Meta.3158]

2 minutes ago, DemonCrypto.6792 said:

i don't get why people are upset by spellbreaker and FC now.

I mean just because the last rework on a core trait line made them better, doesn't mean it's a perfect and unstoppable juggernaut.

It has big flaws and can be  countered.

 

just because war is competitive now doesn't mean it is on the same level of abuse other classes can do.

What we experience is a bias , because it's new we are not trained to react in a good manner when encountered.

 

hammer spellbreaker isn't OP(even if really better then before) it's just perceived like this, until we learn and adapte to this new player

 

(seriously i have been farming this kind of war for two weeks. Yes there is good ones, but with range pressure , most crumble easly).

 

Its ok if you don't understand the issue. Enough people understood issue to be able to converse about how to remedy it. Just wait for the results. 

[Dadnir.5038]

49 minutes ago, Dr Meta.3158 said:

Its ok if you don't understand the issue. Enough people understood issue to be able to converse about how to remedy it. Just wait for the results. 

I am impressed to see how you deal with someone that say: "SpB have weakness and I've been doing very well against them these last 2 weeks by exploiting these weaknesses"

Basically you answer by: "we know better so just shut up!" in flowery words, obviously.

I guess you're true to your signature.

 

As for the "issue", it's merely a bunker build in sPvP and everybody know that the vocal sPvP community hate bunker builds to the bone. The result is that after a lot of whinning, it will be nerfed to oblivion and disappear from the sPvP scene (the fate of all bunker builds in sPvP). And the truth is that the vast majority of the suggestions people will give will simply be ignored by the devs.

 

As for the OP suggestion, I doubt it's doable to change the behavior of a skill based on the core traitline used. They might be able to make some traits specifically ignore some skills but that's all they can do. And, removing the synergy between an e-spec and a core traitline would be simply toxic for the diversity of the game.

[Dr Meta.3158]

4 minutes ago, Dadnir.5038 said:

I am impressed to see how you deal with someone that say: "SpB have weakness and I've been doing very well against them these last 2 weeks by exploiting these weaknesses"

Basically you answer by: "we know better so just shut up!" in flowery words, obviously.

I guess you're true to your signature.

 

As for the "issue", it's merely a bunker build in sPvP and everybody know that the vocal sPvP community hate bunker builds to the bone. The result is that after a lot of whinning, it will be nerfed to oblivion and disappear from the sPvP scene (the fate of all bunker builds in sPvP). And the truth is that the vast majority of the suggestions people will give will simply be ignored by the devs.

 

As for the OP suggestion, I doubt it's doable to change the behavior of a skill based on the core traitline used. They might be able to make some traits specifically ignore some skills but that's all they can do. And, removing the synergy between an e-spec and a core traitline would be simply toxic for the diversity of the game.

I suppose its akin to the students that didn't understand the course material and failed their exams then respond that they understood the material and found it easy. It would be a sort of interesting tactic for sure and a bit worrisome that they think it would work, but you still don't pass them.

Your ad hominems aside I can only relay the same advice. Wait and see.

[Dadnir.5038]

29 minutes ago, Dr Meta.3158 said:

Your ad hominems aside I can only relay the same advice. Wait and see.

I guess, it would be beyond you to show a bit of respect for this player's experience.

Anyway, the most likely outcome based on the devs' past behaviour if FC is pointed out is that it will get a CD nerf. Simple and effective.

[Kodama.6453]

2 hours ago, Dadnir.5038 said:

As for the OP suggestion, I doubt it's doable to change the behavior of a skill based on the core traitline used. They might be able to make some traits specifically ignore some skills but that's all they can do. And, removing the synergy between an e-spec and a core traitline would be simply toxic for the diversity of the game.

Gadgeteer is a trait that, if equipped, flips over all gadgets skills to a different variant of them.

Obviously, the tech to make a trait flip skills to a different version is there. It is possible.

[Lan Deathrider.5910]

Some base information that needs to be acknowledged:

1. People aren't used to fighting Hammer and need to relearn
2. People aren't used to fighting against Defense, and need to relearn
3. People haven't spent the time to learn how to fight against the Defense buffs
4. Defensebreaker is not OP, the meta changed and people haven't changed their builds
   1. These people are QQing instead of adapting
   2. The build has distinct counters to it
   3. People are refusing to run the counters

During the Balance manifesto Anet said that they are going to move away from saving people from playing bad builds. There are counters to Defensebreaker, if people don't run them, then that isn't Anet's fault, it's the player's faults for being too stubborn to adapt.

For any profession, if a counter exists to a build then no nerfs are needed to that build. Full stop. I will vouch for any profession on that hill. We as a community need to do better in this regard and go out of our way to show what the counters are and what the counter builds are. @DemonCrypto.6792, feel free to post your Defensebreaker kill over in the PvP forum.

There is one thing about Spellbreaker that needs to be changed, and that is the CD reduction bug from Versatile Power. It's a bug, bugs need to be fixed. This particular bug gives Spellbreaker 15% more sustain, condition cleansing, CC, boon rips, and all the other burst related goodness from traitlines. That one change would be enough, there are no direct nerfs that need to happen, just that one bug fix.

Otherwise, you'd have the situation that happened with BSW, they fixed the bugs, made the one needed nerf, and then made more nerfs which shoved BSW out the door.

[Fueki.4753]

Fixing the CD bug on Full Counter is literally the only thing that needs to happen.

Even in its current state it's far from the worst thing in sPvP. People just need to learn how to play against it.

Edited January 4, 2023 by Fueki.4753

[Hotride.2187]

7 hours ago, Zizekent.2398 said:

Strength should be the one that bullies the peepos on damage, because it's offensive, it's skilled, it has timings, your mistakes are punished, unlike Defense Spellbreaker, is just ez mode getting a bunch of mistakes and still going, played by op builds abusers, on Strength Spellbreaker this wasn't a thing, it was 100% struggling but you really noticed someone that was good or at least trying to be better on it, someone that really enjoys to play Warrior, and not just the one that jumps on the busted current builds of the game, like it happened with Bladesworn some months ago.

Yeah, couldn't agree more with this.

But no idea how you nerf only defense spb though without making str spb worse. Maybe if nerfs to spb come with buffs to str. More heal on might from MMR to compensate for sustain nerfs from FC (e.g. if its CD gets increased).

FC not being a burst if you take defense sounds weird. Maybe FC can be made into a non-burst skill regardless of whether you take defense and then balance its CD from there.

[Lan Deathrider.5910]

37 minutes ago, Hotride.2187 said:

Yeah, couldn't agree more with this.

But no idea how you nerf only defense spb though without making str spb worse. Maybe if nerfs to spb come with buffs to str. More heal on might from MMR to compensate for sustain nerfs from FC (e.g. if its CD gets increased).

FC not being a burst if you take defense sounds weird. Maybe FC can be made into a non-burst skill regardless of whether you take defense and then balance its CD from there.

You fix the CD bug first and see where things are. Defense gets more value out of frequent bursts than Strength does, so reducing FC availability by the extra 15% that VP is giving it erroneously ends up hurting Defense Breaker more than Strength Breaker.

[captrowdy.9561]

This is ridiculous. I’ve been plowing people in spvp for almost two years now on my spell breaker and when y’all see more then one a day nerf!!! Hammer can be a bit annoying but that’s your fault for getting locked down in cc. All the other ridiculous classes and warrior is the problem. Give it some time and the meta players will move on to a new class and then it’ll just be the warrior mains still plowing you like it always has been. 

[Dr Meta.3158]

8 hours ago, Dadnir.5038 said:

I guess, it would be beyond you to show a bit of respect for this player's experience.

Anyway, the most likely outcome based on the devs' past behaviour if FC is pointed out is that it will get a CD nerf. Simple and effective.

That's fair. I suppose I dealt with enough cheeky deception (work and this game) to having zero tolerance of conjecture. For example, I wouldn't expect anyone to humor me preaching about how easy it was to kill bladesworns prenerf. But I do forget to set my expectations accordingly to this type of setting. Mechanist is destroying ranked pvp afterall and the like, many people have experienced it.

A nerf on full counter and full counter alone is the dominant response and is what is hoped for though the expectation is a unnecessary nerf on the defense traitline.

[CalmTheStorm.2364]

I posted this in response to someone else in another thread, but I wanted to put it here as well as it pertains to this discussion:

 

"Do. Not. Nerf. Core. Traits. To. Target. One. E-Spec.

 

No other Warrior spec running Defense is overperforming, so nerfing Defense makes no sense.  The trait line is not the problem.

 

Strength SpB was the best Warrior spec prior to EOD and the Defense reworks (besides the brief time when Bladesworn was OP), so it is no surprise that SpB is again the best Warrior spec when it is using the better tools provided by Defense.  This speaks to the overall strength of the Spellbreaker kit compared to the rest of warrior.  

 

The goal here should be to bring other builds up to the same level of viability as SpB.  Nerfing Defense will not do that.  

 

Moreover, Strength SpB was a B-tier pick even before EOD, and it has only become more irrelevant since with the general power creep of the game.  It makes no sense to tank the entire Warrior profession in favor of preserving a build/playstyle that wasn't very competitive to begin with.

 

If you want Str SpB to be better (or any SpB build for that matter), the way to do it is to buff Strength itself and/or other aspects of Core/SpB so that SpB can excel without relying on the bloated value it gets from FC.  Making meditations relevant, re-working useless warrior weapons (including OH dagger), etc, would be good places to start.  Strength, for instance, has lots of useless traits like brave stride, restorative strength, and body blow.  Creating alternatives to the Discipline traitline so that one could run something like Strength/Defense/SpB would be ideal.  Obviously, such changes are at least a balance patch (or 2 or 3) away, but that's the direction we should be heading in.

 

Do. Not. Nerf. Core. Traits. To. Target. One. E-Spec."

 

 

Edited January 4, 2023 by CalmTheStorm.2364

[Grand Marshal.4098]

Am I the only crazy mfer who actually plays Aggressive Onslaught SpB when I get my warrior itch?

[kmark.8519]

Screw your kitten ideas of "nerfing", we finally have a slight chance to 1v1 some suckers after 5 years of suffering kitten and you immediately cry for nerf? How about nerfing your other kitten classes that still kill me in less than 2 seconds passively if I don't pay 10000% attention for a nanosecond?

[Hotride.2187]

1 hour ago, Grand Marshal.4098 said:

Am I the only crazy mfer who actually plays Aggressive Onslaught SpB when I get my warrior itch?

Aside from me I've seen only 1 war who doesn't play defense, since the defense rework (and that one plays the rifle berserker cheese in unranked). So probably yeah.

Edited January 4, 2023 by Hotride.2187

[Obtena.7952]

Hold on ... what part is OP? THAT is the part you fix. Defense is good, but not enough to make say ... Def Berserker or Def BsW broken in PVP? OK, then Defense isn't the problem. You want to nerf a core trait to target an espec? That kind of thinking needs to end.  

Here is the other point: How absurd is it to be someone that complains about how crap their class is, get some good buffs, then propose it gets nerfed because they don't like playing things they predict are going to get nerfed because they are too good? Wow. You don't like playing builds that you think are clearly going to get nerfed? OK ... then DON'T play them. I suspect there is little tolerance to those playing the willing victim. 

Edited January 4, 2023 by Obtena.7952

[Zekent.3652]

56 minutes ago, Obtena.7952 said:

Hold on ... what part is OP? THAT is the part you fix. Defense is good, but not enough to make say ... Def Berserker or Def BsW broken in PVP? OK, then Defense isn't the problem. You want to nerf a core trait to target an espec? That kind of thinking needs to end.  

Here is the other point: How absurd is it to be someone that complains about how crap their class is, get some good buffs, then propose it gets nerfed because they don't like playing things they predict are going to get nerfed because they are too good? Wow. You don't like playing builds that you think are clearly going to get nerfed? OK ... then DON'T play them. I suspect there is little tolerance to those playing the willing victim. 

Can you tell me where did i asked for nerfs on core? willing victim? did you even read the post? Wow, calm down gamer.

[Obtena.7952]

46 minutes ago, Zizekent.2398 said:

Can you tell me where did i asked for nerfs on core? willing victim? did you even read the post? 

Yup I read the post and it's makes no sense and yes, it does appear like someone willingly playing the victim. You don't ask for pre-emptive nerfs  because you willingly subject yourself to using what you think is a broken spec and proclaim you will eventually be the victim of these eventual nerfs. 

What I said still stands ... don't like playing broken specs? Just don't then. Play something else. Trust me, I'm CERTAIN someone can give you a warrior build that isn't OP like the Def SpB if it bothers you THAT much when you choose to subject yourself to using it. 

Edited January 4, 2023 by Obtena.7952

[CalmTheStorm.2364]

2 minutes ago, Obtena.7952 said:

Yup I read the post and it's makes no sense. You don't ask for nerfs, especially because you willingly subject yourself to using broken specs and proclaim you will eventually be the victim of these eventual nerfs. 

There are others who are saying things similar to what you're accusing the OP of, but @Zizekent.2398isn't one of them. Let's not pick this fight unnecessarily.

 

I do agree with you and the OP that, if there are going to be any nerfs at all, they should be aimed at SpB and not touch on anything Core.

 

**IF** you were going to nerf something on Core, I would suggest banner of defense, since it makes it decidedly easier for you and your team to hold a node without investing anything into healing power.

 

[Obtena.7952]

5 hours ago, CalmTheStorm.2364 said:

There are others who are saying things similar to what you're accusing the OP of, but @Zizekent.2398isn't one of them. Let's not pick this fight unnecessarily.

 

I do agree with you and the OP that, if there are going to be any nerfs at all, they should be aimed at SpB and not touch on anything Core.

 

**IF** you were going to nerf something on Core, I would suggest banner of defense, since it makes it decidedly easier for you and your team to hold a node without investing anything into healing power.

 

 

Let's be clear ... we shouldn't be talking about nerfs AT ALL at this point and he did start this thread to garner support for this ridiculous idea. We JUST got these changes. Meta needs to settle before anyone is running around claiming Def SpB needs a nerf. I have no doubt that once everyone adjusts, most of the same people here will go back to complaining about how bad Warrior is again. 

Edited January 5, 2023 by Obtena.7952

[kmark.8519]

3 hours ago, Zizekent.2398 said:

Can you tell me where did i asked for nerfs on core? willing victim? did you even read the post? Wow, calm down gamer.

 

OP just link the posts from other class threads where you are whining for similar nerfs for other classes that outperform spellbreaker by far.