Brief History Of Elementalist Patching - A Highlight Of Overperformance & Balance Neglect

[Trevor Boyer.6524]

5 hours ago, Sahne.6950 said:

The second we dont see those two as often, is the second Chronobunker will rise.

I would much rather deal with Chronobunkers than current Catalyst.

Current Catalyst is just wildly saiyan tier out of control atm.

[Mini Crinny.6190]

This actually belongs in the elementalist sub forum, please move 👀

[Trevor Boyer.6524]

01/10/2023—January 10 Release Notes

Catalyst New Year

As another new year dawns on Tyria, join the festivities in The Heart Of The Mist! The Year of the Catalyst is upon us, and the Lunar New Year festival returns with new massively imbalanced content. Collect tears in the mists by creating a Catalyst!

• The Catalyst New Year annual meta-achievement, new achievements for how many Catalysts can you get into one game.
• The new skill Pepega Bomb is now available.

Lunar New Year will be active until January 31 at noon Pacific Time (UTC-8). See you in downstate at the feet of a Catalyst!

General

• Made sure to ignore any & all feedback about Catalyst being too strong.
• Fixed an issue that caused other classes to be able to compete with Catalyst.

Items

• Made sure to ignore any & all feedback about Conjure Earth Shield.

Edited January 10, 2023 by Trevor Boyer.6524

[CalmTheStorm.2364]

1 hour ago, Trevor Boyer.6524 said:

01/10/2023—January 10 Release Notes

Catalyst New Year

As another new year dawns on Tyria, join the festivities in The Heart Of The Mist! The Year of the Catalyst is upon us, and the Lunar New Year festival returns with new massively imbalanced content. Collect tears in the mists by creating a Catalyst!

• The Catalyst New Year annual meta-achievement, new achievements for how many Catalysts can you get into one game.
• The new skill Pepega Bomb is now available.

Lunar New Year will be active until January 31 at noon Pacific Time (UTC-8). See you in downstate at the feet of a Catalyst!

General

• Made sure to ignore any & all feedback about Catalyst being too strong.
• Fixed an issue that caused other classes to be able to compete with Catalyst.

Items

• Made sure to ignore any & all feedback about Conjure Earth Shield.

Maybe they were looking for New Year's resolutions they knew they could keep? 😅

[JosephKatz.9375]

I just want to know when the ele/catalyst big nerf is coming? The chainable spamming reflect auras and general defensive state while putting out huge AOE DPS numbers if you DARE get into melee range needs to go..

 

I don’t see how anyone could make a valid argument as to how this is not the most busted thing to walk gw2 right now.

[Trevor Boyer.6524]

2 minutes ago, JosephKatz.9375 said:

I just want to know when the ele/catalyst big nerf is coming? The chainable spamming reflect auras and general defensive state while putting out huge AOE DPS numbers if you DARE get into melee range needs to go..

 

I don’t see how anyone could make a valid argument as to how this is not the most busted thing to walk gw2 right now.

It's not going to get nerfed. This is the year of the Catalyst.

[RedAvenged.5217]

21 hours ago, Sahne.6950 said:

yeah right now there is some builds that are better.

Because currently SPB and Cata keep chrono in check big time. Chronobunker cant fullfill the role as sidenoder as those two will win the 1v1 against it.

The second we dont see those two as often, is the second Chronobunker will rise.

I can beat chrono bunker on guardian ezily with no risk.

chronobunker is an ez build but is no risk to play against and no it won’t rise, ppl will just find other builds to our smart it

[Trevor Boyer.6524]

19 hours ago, CalmTheStorm.2364 said:

Maybe they were looking for New Year's resolutions they knew they could keep? 😅

Exactly

Seriously though, I don't understand how such a huge outlier problem can be present, they do a patch, and don't toss any time whatsoever towards some kind of simple hotfix.

You want to do some proper laid out fine thought balance? Great, save it for a balance patch. But you've got to do temp hotfixes for massively outlier issues like current Catalyst, otherwise it janks up the game for everyone.

[Kuma.1503]

Step 1. Buff elementals and make them permenant

Step 2. Wait for the community to catch fire because broken AI build exists

Step 3. Sit back as the nerfs pour in. 

 

It's foolproof. 

[Vancho.8750]

3 hours ago, Trevor Boyer.6524 said:

Exactly

Seriously though, I don't understand how such a huge outlier problem can be present, they do a patch, and don't toss any time whatsoever towards some kind of simple hotfix.

You want to do some proper laid out fine thought balance? Great, save it for a balance patch. But you've got to do temp hotfixes for massively outlier issues like current Catalyst, otherwise it janks up the game for everyone.

When I worked on Game dev(mobile games, don't judge me) we had tools with good enough UI ( so everyone could work with it) that control every aspect of the game, so at any given moment you could change the numbers if need be.

I suspect that Anet does not have anything like that and it is all in program code, so they can't commit any change without passing all the bureaucracy  that comes with it.   

[Dreams.3128]

On 1/9/2023 at 8:06 PM, Dantheman.3589 said:

You have 5 builds better than either untamed and warrior, give it a break no one will dominate the meta like ele is rn.

currently anyone duoing on cata is guaranteed a top 10 spot, even wing against top teir players

That doesn't even address half of what Sahne says, this is exactly what I'm talking about with this group. You filtered out all of the important information which is: Anet NERFS counterplay to really strong specs/classes/builds and can only seem to focus on: wElL tHeY hAvE fIvE bUiLdS.

In order to be healthy balance there needs checks and balances, necessary evils to hunt down problematic classes. As someone said Rev was a gatekeeper to ALOT of these classes back in the day, and so was mesmer. Now that we don't have that ele is able to run wild until one of those classes comes back to check it once again. Anet needs to buff Rev/Mesmer enough where it can check Ele, but not gatekeep anything who is not Cata levels of stupid. Same thing with Spellbreaker really. Buff Necro and boons strips, and spellbreaker basically flops over and perish. Technically it already does if someone is playing Core Necro and can play absolutely well, but that is just basing off of player skill and not so much the class itself.

Nerf the classes properly, but keep them relevant enough to be a soft check to builds that can get out of control.

[Trevor Boyer.6524]

16 minutes ago, Dreams.3128 said:

That doesn't even address half of what Sahne says, this is exactly what I'm talking about with this group. You filtered out all of the important information which is: Anet NERFS counterplay to really strong specs/classes/builds and can only seem to focus on: wElL tHeY hAvE fIvE bUiLdS.

In order to be healthy balance there needs checks and balances, necessary evils to hunt down problematic classes. As someone said Rev was a gatekeeper to ALOT of these classes back in the day, and so was mesmer. Now that we don't have that ele is able to run wild until one of those classes comes back to check it once again. Anet needs to buff Rev/Mesmer enough where it can check Ele, but not gatekeep anything who is not Cata levels of stupid. Same thing with Spellbreaker really. Buff Necro and boons strips, and spellbreaker basically flops over and perish. Technically it already does if someone is playing Core Necro and can play absolutely well, but that is just basing off of player skill and not so much the class itself.

Nerf the classes properly, but keep them relevant enough to be a soft check to builds that can get out of control.

Everything is wrong with your approach here.

Let's say we are looking at Rock/Paper/Scissors. If the Scissors get too big and weight a metric ton, the answer is not to increase the size of the Rock so it also weighs a metric ton, because that would lead to needing to make a piece of Paper the size of a square mile to compensate. This is all power creep, which GW2 desperately does not need more of.

The answer is to bring the Scissors back down in size to the original Rock and Paper.

Catalyst and Ele in general have been given too much. Spellbreaker and Vindicator are also overperforming. Untamed is arguably overperforming. Everything else is actually in a relatively balanced state right now.

[Sahne.6950]

17 minutes ago, Trevor Boyer.6524 said:

Everything is wrong with your approach here.

Let's say we are looking at Rock/Paper/Scissors. If the Scissors get too big and weight a metric ton, the answer is not to increase the size of the Rock so it also weighs a metric ton, because that would lead to needing to make a piece of Paper the size of a square mile to compensate. This is all power creep, which GW2 desperately does not need more of.

The answer is to bring the Scissors back down in size to the original Rock and Paper.

Catalyst and Ele in general have been given too much. Spellbreaker and Vindicator are also overperforming. Untamed is arguably overperforming. Everything else is actually in a relatively balanced state right now.

truth be told.

but nevertheless there are a few specs that got heavily butchered that could indeed need some love.

Things like condirev, Willbender and even Specter... If they werent hot garbage, they could function as a ele counter.

 

Dont get me wrong, the Cata rock is too big and needs to be brought in line with paper and scissor. unfortunately scissors currently doesnt exist at all, making rock look even bigger, than it actually is.

im just so scared that they a) overshoot the nerf, or b) butcher core ele, instead of targetting the real problem. or c) they heavily nerf ele AND establish counters in the same patch, leaving ele useless for 3 months.

We know Anet... one of the 3 will happen.

 

Edited January 12, 2023 by Sahne.6950

[Dreams.3128]

54 minutes ago, Trevor Boyer.6524 said:

Everything is wrong with your approach here.

Let's say we are looking at Rock/Paper/Scissors. If the Scissors get too big and weight a metric ton, the answer is not to increase the size of the Rock so it also weighs a metric ton, because that would lead to needing to make a piece of Paper the size of a square mile to compensate. This is all power creep, which GW2 desperately does not need more of.

The answer is to bring the Scissors back down in size to the original Rock and Paper.

Catalyst and Ele in general have been given too much. Spellbreaker and Vindicator are also overperforming. Untamed is arguably overperforming. Everything else is actually in a relatively balanced state right now.

Well that is what I was implying. 'Balance' doesn't mean to always buff. 'Balance' in the terms of devs and looking at each class is balancing it so they each class has something of a rock or scissors, without the paper being far behind. My choice of words may have been incorrect and I will certainly take that, but yes, you are right, if something needs to be tone down, it needs to be tone down. Vice versa if something needs to be toned up enough to the point where it can serve its purpose as a check, but to the point where it doesn't gatekeep (IE Rev being a BIG example of this since its whole thing was to keep classes like Ele in check, but in doing so made it hard for other builds to shine), then that is the ideal balance that should be aimed for.

Edited January 12, 2023 by Dreams.3128

[RedAvenged.5217]

10 hours ago, Dreams.3128 said:

That doesn't even address half of what Sahne says, this is exactly what I'm talking about with this group. You filtered out all of the important information which is: Anet NERFS counterplay to really strong specs/classes/builds and can only seem to focus on: wElL tHeY hAvE fIvE bUiLdS.

In order to be healthy balance there needs checks and balances, necessary evils to hunt down problematic classes. As someone said Rev was a gatekeeper to ALOT of these classes back in the day, and so was mesmer. Now that we don't have that ele is able to run wild until one of those classes comes back to check it once again. Anet needs to buff Rev/Mesmer enough where it can check Ele, but not gatekeep anything who is not Cata levels of stupid. Same thing with Spellbreaker really. Buff Necro and boons strips, and spellbreaker basically flops over and perish. Technically it already does if someone is playing Core Necro and can play absolutely well, but that is just basing off of player skill and not so much the class itself.

Nerf the classes properly, but keep them relevant enough to be a soft check to builds that can get out of control.

Rev is and has been very busted, you can play almost any power build on rev and you are a top spec compared to 90% of builds out there.

 

I think maybe you are just wrong and projecting.

 

I’ve been around for awhile and I know most playable builds, ele is just way stronger than everything else…

[Leonidrex.5649]

On 1/11/2023 at 6:27 AM, RedAvenged.5217 said:

I can beat chrono bunker on guardian ezily with no risk.

chronobunker is an ez build but is no risk to play against and no it won’t rise, ppl will just find other builds to our smart it

im fairly sure boyce kitten on chrono bunker so hard he kittened him 80%-0% as untamed.
I seriously dont see why chronobunker would be good on anything as a serious build.
It looks, feels and plays like a build you would give someone really bad at the game simply so he doesnt feed as much lol

[Dreams.3128]

13 hours ago, RedAvenged.5217 said:

Rev is and has been very busted, you can play almost any power build on rev and you are a top spec compared to 90% of builds out there.

 

I think maybe you are just wrong and projecting.

 

I’ve been around for awhile and I know most playable builds, ele is just way stronger than everything else…

...Did you even read?

How is that even remotely close to projecting? You just agreed that Rev is strong enough to the point where you are winning against majority of the builds in full powered state, basically supporting the fact that it is one of those gatekeeper classes. I never said that Ele was weak in its current iteration which is because overbuffed scepter. What I said certain classes CAN check said class so it would not be running RAMPANT as it currently is at the moment.

Reading comprehension is an important skill, I suggest you start using it. 

[RedAvenged.5217]

4 hours ago, Dreams.3128 said:

...Did you even read?

How is that even remotely close to projecting? You just agreed that Rev is strong enough to the point where you are winning against majority of the builds in full powered state, basically supporting the fact that it is one of those gatekeeper classes. I never said that Ele was weak in its current iteration which is because overbuffed scepter. What I said certain classes CAN check said class so it would not be running RAMPANT as it currently is at the moment.

Reading comprehension is an important skill, I suggest you start using it. 

ok so you are saying that ele is so op that it has 5 meta builds and your solution is to buff up the last class that had 5 meta builds.

 

such a common elitist strategy- project and claim everyone else is just dumber than you.

 

well I’m not dumber than you, I just had the brains to realize your plan was horrible.

 

I would never vote for you 😂

[Dreams.3128]

On 1/13/2023 at 11:52 AM, RedAvenged.5217 said:

ok so you are saying that ele is so op that it has 5 meta builds and your solution is to buff up the last class that had 5 meta builds.

 

such a common elitist strategy- project and claim everyone else is just dumber than you.

 

well I’m not dumber than you, I just had the brains to realize your plan was horrible.

 

I would never vote for you 😂

Once again reading comprehension is not your strongest suit, so let me break things down for you, so you can understand with all of the ignorance you summoned in one post:

1. Rev never had five meta builds at once, two or three in its hayday, so that's your first lie
2. Never did I say to buff Rev up to Cata levels. I said buff it enough so it can keep Ele in line, but not gatekeep the other classes. That goes for Mes as well. So there's your second lie.
3. I'm not an elitist, actually I am pretty casual given my schedule with work. I just play the game to have initial knowledge. There's many people here that can always explain my points better with tangible numbers because they are more dedicated. So, there's your third lie.
4. I never said my plan was fullproof, I said that is a possible way they could approach balances and nerfs when deciding what and how to nerf Ele without dumpstering the entire class how Rev was dumpstered at one point. That's your fourth lie.
5. There's only four builds Cata has because S/F and Scepter are the same if you are just sticking to Metabattle like the bible. That's your fifth lie. 

So the next time you want to have an ACTUAL discussion, don't come with the BS. Actually have a productive discussion like Trevor or someone who can actually take five seconds to write more than insults at some stranger they don't know. Thanks. 

[RedAvenged.5217]

3 hours ago, Dreams.3128 said:

Once again reading comprehension is not your strongest suit, so let me break things down for you, so you can understand with all of the ignorance you summoned in one post:

1. Rev never had five meta builds at once, two or three in its hayday, so that's your first lie
2. Never did I say to buff Rev up to Cata levels. I said buff it enough so it can keep Ele in line, but not gatekeep the other classes. That goes for Mes as well. So there's your second lie.
3. I'm not an elitist, actually I am pretty casual given my schedule with work. I just play the game to have initial knowledge. There's many people here that can always explain my points better with tangible numbers because they are more dedicated. So, there's your third lie.
4. I never said my plan was fullproof, I said that is a possible way they could approach balances and nerfs when deciding what and how to nerf Ele without dumpstering the entire class how Rev was dumpstered at one point. That's your fourth lie.
5. There's only four builds Cata has because S/F and Scepter are the same if you are just sticking to Metabattle like the bible. That's your fifth lie. 

So the next time you want to have an ACTUAL discussion, don't come with the BS. Actually have a productive discussion like Trevor or someone who can actually take five seconds to write more than insults at some stranger they don't know. Thanks. 

😂😂😂 I love how you call me a liar and an idiot and claim you are here for a clean discussion.

 

well I’m not an idiot, I went to a college ranked top 5 in the world on a full scholarship and I did it without being an elitist p o s that insults everyone.

people ran 5 rev teams in mats- there was 3 power builds, condi rev and bunker rev.

that’s why no here is voting for you to become supreme overlord of balancing.

that’s cmc’s job already and you insulted his 2nd favorite class

Edited January 16, 2023 by RedAvenged.5217

[Peter.3901]

Laughing on spellbreaker godmode.

[Khalisto.5780]

I love rangers mains making nerfing threads cuz they mad all their kitten gets reflected back to their faces

[Zuko.7132]

3 hours ago, Khalisto.5780 said:

I love rangers mains making nerfing threads cuz they mad all their kitten gets reflected back to their faces

Meanwhile ele gets to range with scepter while not worrying about reflect. I understand why the rangers are jealous.

[Master Ketsu.4569]

I was hoping with the emergency nerf to Vindicator post 2-dodge change that this would be a new thing going forward to specs that are obviously and clearly busted. Oh well. 

Thanks for making this thread so I didn't have to. I was considering making something very similar and explaining why DT is in fact more of a "Straw that broke the camels back" issue and that the balance problems with ele right now are in fact much deeper. 

People complain about Holosmith,  UT, Vind, and Spellbreaker, but all of these have a key weakness in that they can actually be avoided, outkited, and most of their damage requires them to be close to you. Take Vind for example: It does about 80% less damage if you simply freecam+about face out of the way of its damage rotation. But Scepter Cata? Cata can legit still use most of its damage skills at range while it freecam runs away from their target with near permanent superspeed uptime. And this right here is the main issue with the overall design. Scepter Cata never at any point has to put itself in any real danger or risk to be able to do its thing. And yet, it has just as much defensive utility and sustain as the specs that have to actually abide by this tradeoff. In fact, now that more people are aware of how busted and easy this playstyle is, you could probably completely revert DT and people would still play it and it would still be a very strong spec just because of how forgiving it is due to said lack of tradeoffs.

 

 

 

 

Edited January 17, 2023 by Master Ketsu.4569

[Shagie.7612]

9 hours ago, Khalisto.5780 said:

I love rangers mains making nerfing threads cuz they mad all their kitten gets reflected back to their faces

It's really any projectile weapon or any class, honestly. Shortbow on Rene isn't good and needs reworking badly, but it's even worse with how much projectile hate exists.
You don't get to play if you use anything projectile reliant against Cata (or tempest, for that matter).

Like, builds having counters and weaknesses is fine as a concept but basically never being allowed to hit someone is taking it a bit far, I think.