Meta is at one of its most unfun point

[mariugo.4856]

Right now both meta and viable spec are in an horrible state not only because spellbreaker and cata are completely dominant against other dps classes, but also because most meta/viable spec are lame, unskilled and just plain unfun to play against.

As top meta lame classes we have:

Cata  =  with thief nerfed they don't have any direct counter, meaning you have to chase a bursting tank class that can chain stun-root - nobody likes to play against invuln/stun spammer class

Spellbreaker = plain unfun to simply die if they get you with their 6 seconds 15k dmg chainstun combo and you have no stability, also can be played as banner tank-  unfun to play against both ways

As viable lame classes we have:

Vindicator = dodge/block spammer - requires 2 brain cells to cycle defensives and survive way above your actual skill level

Holosmith = can chainstun you and oneshot if you have no stunbreak - same logic, it's dumb to have classes that can chainstun you for 6 seconds and burst 20k in 5 seconds

 

There are probably other examples, but what i wanted to prove is that there are a lot of unfun meta specs right now

I don't really care wich classes are fotm, all i care about is that pvp takes actual ability and that its fun, and that it's not based on abusing tf out of unskilled stun/invuln combo 

 

 

 

Edited January 14, 2023 by mariugo.4856

[Jagdtiger.2517]

What a lot of these classes have in common is that they can block for very long periods of time. Ele has block and invulnerability. Warrior has block and endure pain. Vindi has 2 blocks. Tools holo has the holo shield utility, shield block, and toolkit block. They're just immune to damage for too long. In the past you had thief and unlockable necro marks to keep these skills in check, but Arenanet has made thief useless and necro mediocre. Thief honestly just feels completely useless right now. Classes have so much mobility that thief isn't that special anymore, and in terms of actual fighting, thief is by far the worst class in small scale skirmishes. Buff thief and necro and nerf ele and I think the meta will be better. 

[Kodama.6453]

43 minutes ago, Jagdtiger.2517 said:

What a lot of these classes have in common is that they can block for very long periods of time. Ele has block and invulnerability. Warrior has block and endure pain. Vindi has 2 blocks. Tools holo has the holo shield utility, shield block, and toolkit block. They're just immune to damage for too long. In the past you had thief and unlockable necro marks to keep these skills in check, but Arenanet has made thief useless and necro mediocre. Thief honestly just feels completely useless right now. Classes have so much mobility that thief isn't that special anymore, and in terms of actual fighting, thief is by far the worst class in small scale skirmishes. Buff thief and necro and nerf ele and I think the meta will be better. 

What's standing out for many of the top performers currently is that they don't just have blocks, but many other defensive mechanics as well.

Blocks at least have counterplay, because there are unblockable attacks available for pretty much every class (and unblockable CCs, too, to disrupt the blocks).

If an enemy blocks, then you can use unblockable attacks to still get through or even CC and end the block. But then the other defensive mechanics come on top:

• elementalists can spam invuln, which has no counter
• vindicator can spam dodges, virtually no counter (abilities able to disrupt a dodge/evade are very rare)
• spellbreaker can spam evades with full counter, virtually no counter

I kinda doubt that blocks are really the big problem here and that thief and necro getting back into the meta would help all that much. Tools holo is already pretty good as a counter to blocks, because it comes with 3 unblockable CCs (magnet, prime light beam, slick shoes), yet it still seems to get crowded out by catalyst and spellbreaker alot as it seems, which as mentioned have other defensive tools you can use which can't get countered by unblockables.

 

Edited January 13, 2023 by Kodama.6453

[Kuma.1503]

Despite my favorite spec feeling garbage to play right now, I'm actually enjoying this meta. Ever since EoD dropped I've been having a lot more fun than what we had from feb 2020 onward. 

Damage is finally in a good spot

Tanky builds actually die, but aren't paper. 

Necros aren't face tanking my entire burst combo and walking away at full hp. 

Playing glass builds feels appropriately risky/rewarding

Buildcraft feels good for a change since now that entire traitlines aren't nerfed into unplayability.  Removing 300 sec cooldowns and buffing underpowered traitlines like Defense and Tools helped with that. 

 

I can come up with random fun builds, suboptimal or not, and go out and have fun. I'm currently enjoying a Strength/Defense Spellbreaker build. It's suboptimal because it lacks Discipline, but that doesn't stop the salt from flowing when I bonk someone into oblivion with perma stability and quickness. Who needs cleanse when your opponent can't play the game? 

[mariugo.4856]

33 minutes ago, Kuma.1503 said:

Despite my favorite spec feeling garbage to play right now, I'm actually enjoying this meta. Ever since EoD dropped I've been having a lot more fun than what we had from feb 2020 onward. 

Damage is finally in a good spot

Tanky builds actually die, but aren't paper. 

Necros aren't face tanking my entire burst combo and walking away at full hp. 

Playing glass builds feels appropriately risky/rewarding

Buildcraft feels good for a change since now that entire traitlines aren't nerfed into unplayability.  Removing 300 sec cooldowns and buffing underpowered traitlines like Defense and Tools helped with that. 

 

I can come up with random fun builds, suboptimal or not, and go out and have fun. I'm currently enjoying a Strength/Defense Spellbreaker build. It's suboptimal because it lacks Discipline, but that doesn't stop the salt from flowing when I bonk someone into oblivion with perma stability and quickness. Who needs cleanse when your opponent can't play the game? 

 

i believe you're at low rank if you think damage is in a good spot and that tanky spec die, because it's really the exact opposite; there are many oneshotting and really tanky invuln spammer meta/viable classes, there are 4 blatant examples in the OP

Edited January 13, 2023 by mariugo.4856

[Kuma.1503]

38 minutes ago, mariugo.4856 said:

 

i believe you're at low rank if you think damage is in a good spot and that tanky spec die, because it's really the exact opposite; there are many oneshotting and really tanky invuln spammer meta/viable classes, there are 4 blatant examples in the OP

I've never pretended to be a high rank player. I am average. I get my enjoyment from experimenting, conceptualizing new builds, and slowly improving and refining them over time. And then I give them too my more mechanically gifted friends to enjoy. 

My perspective isn't of an energy drink infused, rank addicted gamer with dreams of grandeur.  I'm someone who's played this game for a long time, knows a lot about the game, and how each class works, and who gets a bit more dopamine than is probably healthy from inflicting blunt force trauma in a video game. 

I don't know how things work at the highest levels of play, so I don't comment on it. From what I hear some builds are so untouchable that there's literally nothing your opponent can do against them but roll over and die... but then, that's always been the case for as long as I've played this game. At least, according to high ranking individuals like yourself, I'm i'm reading between the lines correctly. 

[noiwk.2760]

agree pvp is not fun at the moment....  

[Marxx.5021]

There is noone balancing specs for years. What else would you expect.

[Dr Meta.3158]

Honestly the game overall isn't fun.

[Hotride.2187]

5 hours ago, Kodama.6453 said:

spellbreaker can spam evades with full counter, virtually no counter

The skill where you channel a block for 1.5 sec (that an unblockable goes through; blocks only 1 hit) then gives you 0.5 sec evade frames at 8.75 sec cd (assuming you are not adrenaline starved). Thats some evade spamming through FC right there.

War definitely has a lot of evades but calling FC an evade spamming skill... lol.

Edited January 13, 2023 by Hotride.2187

[Khalisto.5780]

Start practicing your chrono condi bunker, once cata and spb are gone it's the next unfun bunker to dominate the meta.

[SoftFootpaws.9134]

4 hours ago, mariugo.4856 said:

 

i believe you're at low rank if you think damage is in a good spot and that tanky spec die, because it's really the exact opposite; there are many oneshotting and really tanky invuln spammer meta/viable classes, there are 4 blatant examples in the OP

What? In platinum players die fairly quickly when focused because everyone runs glass, sometimes Marauder. Bruiser specs have almost never been used at P1+, and really only dominate the silver and gold metas.

 

Enemy teams at that level don't make the mistake of 3v1'ing a tanky sidenoder, so tanking is a waste.

Edited January 14, 2023 by Mariyuuna.6508

[mariugo.4856]

3 hours ago, Kuma.1503 said:

I've never pretended to be a high rank player. I am average. I get my enjoyment from experimenting, conceptualizing new builds, and slowly improving and refining them over time. And then I give them too my more mechanically gifted friends to enjoy. 

My perspective isn't of an energy drink infused, rank addicted gamer with dreams of grandeur.  I'm someone who's played this game for a long time, knows a lot about the game, and how each class works, and who gets a bit more dopamine than is probably healthy from inflicting blunt force trauma in a video game. 

I don't know how things work at the highest levels of play, so I don't comment on it. From what I hear some builds are so untouchable that there's literally nothing your opponent can do against them but roll over and die... but then, that's always been the case for as long as I've played this game. At least, according to high ranking individuals like yourself, I'm i'm reading between the lines correctly. 

you're not reading between the lines, you're writing an entire book about how fragile your ego is; you just described the meta exactly the  opposite way  of what it actually is above gold 1, so i pointed the fact that your assumptions are probably based on your ignorance on the gamemode

[Kuma.1503]

4 minutes ago, mariugo.4856 said:

you're not reading between the lines, you're writing an entire book about how fragile your ego is; you just described the meta exactly the  opposite way  of what it actually is above gold 1, so i pointed the fact that your assumptions are probably based on your ignorance on the gamemode

Oh, I didn't know gold 1+ was high rank. I guess I am good at this game after all. Woo!

 

Edited January 14, 2023 by Kuma.1503

[mariugo.4856]

4 minutes ago, Mariyuuna.6508 said:

What? In platinum players die fairly quickly when focused because everyone runs glass, sometimes Marauder. Bruiser specs have almost never been used at P1+, and really only dominate the silver and gold metas.

 

Enemy teams at that level don't make the mistake of 3v1'ing a tanky sidenoder, so tanking is a waste.

i don't really understand what you're trying to say, you don't need to have 30k hp to be tanky, spamming invulnerabilities and dodge give you plenty of "tankiness", for example sb does not run defensive amulet but it is tanky because of blocks/evades/counter cycling

[SoftFootpaws.9134]

15 hours ago, mariugo.4856 said:

i don't really understand what you're trying to say, you don't need to have 30k hp to be tanky, spamming invulnerabilities and dodge give you plenty of "tankiness", for example sb does not run defensive amulet but it is tanky because of blocks/evades/counter cycling

My point is almost no one runs these builds in high rank because the players are smart enough to not attack tanky targets. The majority of builds are based around mobility and damage, since disengaging is the best tactic; its all about not wasting time on anything that's unneccessary. That's why I was confused at why you call someone low rank and then talk about tactics that aren't even used in high rank?

Edited January 14, 2023 by Mariyuuna.6508

[Master Ketsu.4569]

Cata ( and to a lesser degree ele in general due to Earth Shield still being the most busted skill in the game ) is really the only spec that is overperforming in a bad-for-the-game way right now. Everything else you mentioned is strong, but has clear counterplay.

Warrior- Limited to melee and has very huge animation tells. The defense line could use some minor nerfs, but the design behind what warrior is doing is not uninteractive in the slightest. This is often a learn-to-time-your-dodges-and-stunbreaks issue. There are only a handful of warriors that can play this to its maximum. And FC has never changed from being an ability that is countered by stow-weapons.

Vindicator - Vind is designed so that it can either pool its energy into lots of attack or lots of defense. It cannot do both at the same time. The problem is people don't understand this so they blow all their cooldowns on a Vind that is kiting and swapping through Saint and staff. If you are one of those players, you have an L2P issue. There are also frames in between Vind dodges that allow for you to get hits in, so Vind is arguably a learn-to-time-your-skills issue.

Holosmith SS combo is annoying due to being an unblockable+unaevadeable oneshot, but it only works if you don't have a stunbreak as SS itself does zero damage and is easy to see and avoid once it is already on the ground. Holo itself is also very susceptible to CC, so it's a high damage high CC spec that has the tradeoff of dying very fast to any sustained CC and pressure.

Hopefully Anet will listen to reason and release a balance patch that shaves a few Cata skills down and reduces scepter dps, and not much else. It's these huge balance patches where they touch 10+ skills and traits on every spec that keeps ruining the meta.

 

 

 

Edited January 14, 2023 by Master Ketsu.4569

[Mell.4873]

Honestly if you disrupt this meta in anyway you can win. A perfect example is be ability to be Ranged while avoided reflection like an Engineer Flamethrower. 

Most of the time all you need to a high survivability and high DPS build. Burst is where people get into trouble. 

Edited January 15, 2023 by Mell.4873

[mariugo.4856]

18 hours ago, Mariyuuna.6508 said:

My point is almost no one runs these builds in high rank because the players are smart enough to not attack tanky targets. The majority of builds are based around mobility and damage, since disengaging is the best tactic; its all about not wasting time on anything that's unneccessary. That's why I was confused at why you call someone low rank and then talk about tactics that aren't even used in high rank?

are you saying people don't run the top meta specs at high rank? last time i checked plat2 before being done with the season it was a sb/cata spamfest, with some eventual support and holo/vindi/untamed, so yeah it's 80% the spec i mentioned in the op;  also you talk about not chasing sidenoders or tanky specs like if everything is one dimensional. sometimes you need to get rid of the tanky sidenoder otherwise you would play with close uncapped the whole game, that where silly invuln spammer specs come in play since everyone can cycle invulns and do decent as sidenoder with such specs

 

 

11 hours ago, Master Ketsu.4569 said:

Cata ( and to a lesser degree ele in general due to Earth Shield still being the most busted skill in the game ) is really the only spec that is overperforming in a bad-for-the-game way right now. Everything else you mentioned is strong, but has clear counterplay.

Warrior- Limited to melee and has very huge animation tells. The defense line could use some minor nerfs, but the design behind what warrior is doing is not uninteractive in the slightest. This is often a learn-to-time-your-dodges-and-stunbreaks issue. There are only a handful of warriors that can play this to its maximum. And FC has never changed from being an ability that is countered by stow-weapons.

Vindicator - Vind is designed so that it can either pool its energy into lots of attack or lots of defense. It cannot do both at the same time. The problem is people don't understand this so they blow all their cooldowns on a Vind that is kiting and swapping through Saint and staff. If you are one of those players, you have an L2P issue. There are also frames in between Vind dodges that allow for you to get hits in, so Vind is arguably a learn-to-time-your-skills issue.

Holosmith SS combo is annoying due to being an unblockable+unaevadeable oneshot, but it only works if you don't have a stunbreak as SS itself does zero damage and is easy to see and avoid once it is already on the ground. Holo itself is also very susceptible to CC, so it's a high damage high CC spec that has the tradeoff of dying very fast to any sustained CC and pressure.

Hopefully Anet will listen to reason and release a balance patch that shaves a few Cata skills down and reduces scepter dps, and not much else. It's these huge balance patches where they touch 10+ skills and traits on every spec that keeps ruining the meta.

 

 

 

uh, um, thanks for the input, i am well aware of their counters or how to play against them, that does not make them less broken or not unfun as concepts, as i said in the first post what you're describing are classes with stunlock oneshot combo or with invulnerabilities to cycle trough wich makes an unfunny gameplay to play against

 

Edited January 15, 2023 by mariugo.4856

[Kuma.1503]

8 hours ago, mariugo.4856 said:

are you saying people don't run the top meta specs at high rank? last time i checked plat2 before being done with the season it was a sb/cata spamfest, with some eventual support and holo/vindi/untamed, so yeah it's 80% the spec i mentioned in the op;  also you talk about not chasing sidenoders or tanky specs like if everything is one dimensional. sometimes you need to get rid of the tanky sidenoder otherwise you would play with close uncapped the whole game, that where silly invuln spammer specs come in play since everyone can cycle invulns and do decent as sidenoder with such specs

You can win a game with close uncapped the whole game. Whenever I find myself in this position I just snowball mid with numbers advantage and take far. The SpB/Cata isn't going to be fast enough to hold both sides at once. 

This is in the worst case scenario where the SpB/Cata is just outplaying our team and we can't kill them even with numbers advantage. If we keep overinvesting into them over and over and getting very little out of it... We deserve to lose tbh. 

8 hours ago, mariugo.4856 said:

 

uh, um, thanks for the input, i am well aware of their counters or how to play against them, that does not make them less broken or not unfun as concepts, as i said in the first post what you're describing are classes with stunlock oneshot combo or with invulnerabilities to cycle trough wich makes an unfunny gameplay to play against

 

I'm not going to pretend this meta is perfect (Buff scrapper pls ty), but that's been a common complaint around here ever since Feb 2020 dropped. CMC swooped in, nerfed boon duration, nerfed stab into the ground (Remember when Corona burst gave stab and Elixir U gave multiple stacks for longer than 1 second? Using engi as an example because it's what I play the most). He also nerfed stunbreaks and auto proc defensive traits. (Unhealthy as these were, they prevented situations where you'd get stunlocked and one shot)

Ever since then, for 3 years people came onto the forums, complained that they were getting stunlocked and killed by builds that were simultanously too tanky, had too much sustain, and/or did too much damage. 

 

As for the meta being at its most unfun point... That's subjective, but I can think of several that were worse. 

There was was that period where people desperately wanted mender amulet gone because bunkers had too much sustain, and supports had the durability of bunkers, so CMC deleted mender, forced supports/bunkers to run avatar instead, and added transferrence so there was some trade-off when running a support. 

There was also that meta where MinionMaster was... not a troll build and winning MAT. That was an actual dumpster fire. 

There was the meta that lasted what felt like forever where we basically had FB/Scourge back, but instead of FB it was core guard. I still have nightmares of bunker mender scourges abusing blood bank + sancturary rune and "outplaying" me by face tanking my entire burst, never dodging, and loading me up with more condis than I could cleanse... 

There was the meta where condi thief was everywhere, and if you didn't have a panic button to deal with the instant condi application you just died. That got nerfed real fast. 

There was the holy trinity meta just after feb 2020 where you played Necro + FB + Rev (condi rev, power rev, and renegade were all viable) and if you didn't you most likely lost of the enemy team was running that comp. 

There was that meta where Spirit spam renegade made any node they were on a disco light show. They could also go full bunker and chunk you to 50% hp by abusing soulcleave lifesteal + mad king rune. 

Good times. 

During all of these metas people were still getting stunlocked btw. Both in game and Irl. 

 

This meta is heaven compared to back then. At least in my opinion. 

Edited January 15, 2023 by Kuma.1503

[Rarnark.5623]

55 minutes ago, Kuma.1503 said:

 

This meta is heaven compared to back then. At least in my opinion. 

Man you are literally throwing unless you stack at least 4 eles right now lmao. 

This is one of the worst patches we've been in in the entire history of guild wars 2 pvp

[Kuma.1503]

12 minutes ago, Rarnark.5623 said:

Man you are literally throwing unless you stack at least 4 eles right now lmao. 

This is one of the worst patches we've been in in the entire history of guild wars 2 pvp

Didn't you just say the meta was Ele/SpB,Holo,Vindi, Untamed, + Support? 

Scepter ele is overperforming, sure, but this sounds like hyperbole. 

[Rarnark.5623]

20 minutes ago, Kuma.1503 said:

Scepter ele is overperforming, sure, but this sounds like hyperbole. 

The best comp in the right now is 4 eles. If it's not hotfixed you'll see this comp win the mat in both NA and EU (unless somebody manages to find some niche counter)
 

 

22 minutes ago, Kuma.1503 said:

Didn't you just say the meta was Ele/SpB,Holo,Vindi, Untamed, + Support? 

No I didn't unless you referencing events from another universe.

Perhaps the same one where the meta is "like heaven".
 

[Kuma.1503]

25 minutes ago, Rarnark.5623 said:

No I didn't unless you referencing events from another universe.

Perhaps the same one where the meta is "like heaven".
 

Then what did you mean by this?

Quote

last time i checked plat2 before being done with the season it was a sb/cata spamfest, with some eventual support and holo/vindi/untamed, so yeah it's 80% the spec i mentioned in the op;

You refrenced the Op as well, who states the same thing and mentions there are other builds he didn't list that are strong. 

I think my sinus infection is spreading to my brain. Disregard lol. 

Edited January 15, 2023 by Kuma.1503

[Rarnark.5623]

1 minute ago, Kuma.1503 said:

 

Then what did you mean by this?

You refrenced the Op as well, who states the same thing and mentions there are other builds he didn't list that are strong. 

 

The quote you posted is from mariugo.4856.  Is everything ok bud?