Soulbeast vs Untamed (PvP)

[Kstyle.5829]

Most players and websites say that untamed is the meta PvP choice for ranger right now but I don't see why.  Now I'll admit maybe it's just a matter of player skill, but I can't see any reason to play longbow untamed when you can play soulbeast.  I've tried for many games and the only thing better in my opinion is you have more survivability.  But you lose so much damage and mobility it hardly seems worth it.  Now the hammer is  a different story, I actually think thats quite underrated.  But can someone explain to me why people say longbow untamed is so good?   At super high lvls of play does soulbeast die to quickly to be useful or am I just missing something here?

[Beddo.1907]

Untamed does have way higher skill requirement compared to Soulbeast, so it's harder to see the differences.
Now a few things why it's better in PvP in comparison to Soulbeast:
-Merge doesn't give 1:1 value from losing the pet, so having a pet with improved control makes you way more annoying to handle.
-Untamed has way higher sustain than SB, which is better when you need to play around the objective and can't disengage. 
-Untamed damage, effects and multipliers are spread out more equally, rather than a bit (when you lose pet) multipliers and stats and higher on a short burst, making it better vs players that know what to evade, block and cleanse/boon rip.
-Cantrips add more effects to your kit than stances and have WAY better CDs. (full non heal condi clear+shadowstep+50% unremovable DR, while Dolyak and Moa have 60s and 40s CDs which is too long for the effects you get)

TL;DR
Untamed performs better in higher lvls due to being harder to deal with and better numbers, in return for being harder.
 

[Trevor Boyer.6524]

@Kstyle.5829 @Beddo.1907

Clear up a few things:

1. The choice between Power Soulbeast or Power Untamed has different purposes. They are actually both rather equal in efficiency when you understand when to use Soulbeast and when to use Untamed. The only reason why people have been flavor of the monthing Untamed is because it has the heavy melee strikes, which in a meta dominated by Ele projectile reflects constantly activated, the melee strikes are favorable in most situations.
2. Soulbeast has stronger ranged bursting, much better ability to deal with condi, and uses Sic Em reveal. Soulbeast is better for engaging things that get countered by reveals, for engaging condi in general, and for when there isn't a lot of projectile reflect in the match. Soulbeast can lay down A LOT more damage than Untamed for precision nuking. Things that Soulbeast is better at killing than Untamed: Dragonhunters, Thieves of any build, Necromancers, Mesmers that rely on stealth repositions, and in general anything that has heavy condi damage. It's also better at dealing with Spellbreakers because of the merge function,  which denies the Spellbreaker of easily being able to hit a pet to maintain all of its trait cycles with landing bursts.
3. Untamed is naturally tankier vs. power, it has proj reflect bubble, and it's better for melee strikes. Things that Untamed are better at engaging are: Willbenders, Power based Revenant builds, Holos & Scrappers, other Rangers, Eles. The fact that is better at engaging Eles and Revs, is what makes it the usual pick right now in this meta, because Ele & Rev are currently OP as hell. However this is all situational and given any meta flips, as soon as things like Necro or Specter come back, Soulbeast will have higher value when the Untamed projectile bubble can't stop unblockable marks & condi channels to hit Untamed where it is weak, which is its defense vs. condi.
4. Longbow is mandatory at higher levels of play for any Power Ranger based build. I'm not going to write a thesis on it right at this moment though.
5. Playing Untamed does not require a higher skill level than playing Soulbeast. After the return of pet swapping while merged, Soulbeasts at high levels of play must cycle between two merge skill sets and two pet skill sets to maintain adequate output vs. other higher tiered players. This is very similar to the 4 attunements on Ele actually, and nearly as tedious.

Edited January 26, 2023 by Trevor Boyer.6524

[Avatar.3568]

Untamed is almost unpredictable and you can almost Always Set Up your burst how you need it. The Teleport and pet control makes it Superior.

[Kstyle.5829]

On 1/25/2023 at 3:22 PM, Beddo.1907 said:

Untamed does have way higher skill requirement compared to Soulbeast, so it's harder to see the differences.
Now a few things why it's better in PvP in comparison to Soulbeast:
-Merge doesn't give 1:1 value from losing the pet, so having a pet with improved control makes you way more annoying to handle.
-Untamed has way higher sustain than SB, which is better when you need to play around the objective and can't disengage. 
-Untamed damage, effects and multipliers are spread out more equally, rather than a bit (when you lose pet) multipliers and stats and higher on a short burst, making it better vs players that know what to evade, block and cleanse/boon rip.
-Cantrips add more effects to your kit than stances and have WAY better CDs. (full non heal condi clear+shadowstep+50% unremovable DR, while Dolyak and Moa have 60s and 40s CDs which is too long for the effects you get)

TL;DR
Untamed performs better in higher lvls due to being harder to deal with and better numbers, in return for being harder.
 

Right because good players will avoid your entire burst on sic em soulbeast anyway, leaving you squishy and without utilities.

[Mell.4873]

Honestly what is Meta normally gets hard countered, just play whatever you want and get good at it.

[Gotejjeken.1267]

I haven't really seen any rangers in general at g3 or higher this season.  Of those I did see, I think they played soulbeast to untamed 2:1.  

I guess both can be powerful though, but at current time if I was going to play something other than Druid, I'd roll a double melee Untamed.  That way you still have point presence and decent mobility between double hammer leaping and gs #3.  

I've tried soulbeast and while yeah it can burst like no other, it usually also falls apart when SoloQ as you can't carry a team with it.  It's kind of hard to make a well rounded soulbeast, it seems the current balancing and outlook for the spec is just roamer and nothing else.  

Edited January 30, 2023 by Gotejjeken.1267

[Eurantien.4632]

Untamed is just better than soulbeast.

 

You have really high damage with decent sustain due to being able gain barrier on cantrip use, life steal on ambush skills, and extra vitality from a minor trait.

You have the ability to control 100% of your pet which is just insanely nice. You can set up combos without having to rely on remembering and playing around the pet AI.

There's only 1 thing imo that soulbeast offers better than untamed. That is that it can FARM spellbreaker 1v1. That's it. Untamed can still beat spellbreaker but not as quickly or 1 sided.
 

As for dps roamer specs? Untamed has a teleport, solid aoe dmg, a good elite that keeps you in fights and on top of people in melee range. The added kicker is that Untamed lb dps is SLIGHTLY below Soulbeast DPS. Yeah...soulbeast can DPS harder with OWP but OWP is a  60s cd thats easily countered and is really just a noob stomper. I would gladly trade that for a 5k + longbow ambush that recharges my lb skills, life steals, and is AoE around my target.
 

Imo, there's only 1 metric soulbeast is better than untamed in the current meta game, and thats killing spellbreakers, which you dont need to do all the time.

 

There are some condi  soulbeast memes, but they're just condi memes. They dont really work in consistent plat games.

 

+ hammer untamed is also pretty solid! though I do think lb is ultimately better.

Edited February 1, 2023 by Eurantien.4632

[Project exa.3204]

Quote

Now the hammer is  a different story, I actually think thats quite underrated.  But can someone explain to me why people say longbow untamed is so good?

Other better rangers than me have already nailed it for general reasons when untamed > soulbeast, but I'll add as a hammer untamed enjoyer--longbow is just objectively better. I love running hammer / greatsword for fun, but when it's time to get serious at higher levels the longbow comes out. 

• When you factor in unnatural traversal, you can setup attacks from up to 2400 distance
• Barrage is better AoE damage in a wider radius than hammer
• Hunter's shot is better for dipsetting than any hammer skill
• Nearly every longbow skill has a projectile combo finisher
• Longbow is better for chases 
• Longbow is better for assaults heading to nodes

• -Eros of Ascalon

 

 

[RedAvenged.5217]

On 1/25/2023 at 6:22 PM, Beddo.1907 said:

Untamed does have way higher skill requirement compared to Soulbeast, so it's harder to see the differences.
Now a few things why it's better in PvP in comparison to Soulbeast:
-Merge doesn't give 1:1 value from losing the pet, so having a pet with improved control makes you way more annoying to handle.
-Untamed has way higher sustain than SB, which is better when you need to play around the objective and can't disengage. 
-Untamed damage, effects and multipliers are spread out more equally, rather than a bit (when you lose pet) multipliers and stats and higher on a short burst, making it better vs players that know what to evade, block and cleanse/boon rip.
-Cantrips add more effects to your kit than stances and have WAY better CDs. (full non heal condi clear+shadowstep+50% unremovable DR, while Dolyak and Moa have 60s and 40s CDs which is too long for the effects you get)

TL;DR
Untamed performs better in higher lvls due to being harder to deal with and better numbers, in return for being harder.
 

way too miss every point. Soul beast actually has higher sustain but it’s just way harder to actually make use of it.

 

untameds play is pretty passive and forgiving- random barrier, condi cleanse and high hp.

 

soulbeast is much harder to play than untamed. 
 

and even in the end with soulbeast s higher sustain that you exert way more effect to get- soulbeast will still lose the 1v1 to untamed, simply because the damage is high.

[Beddo.1907]

4 hours ago, RedAvenged.5217 said:

Soul beast actually has higher sustain

Go on explain how Soulbeast has higher sustain.
I don't see how any of my points is wrong (altho, it will be a bit outdated post balance patch)

As for the difficulty.
Untamed is harder to play, while Soulbeast is harder to play effectively on high lvl, due to the kit being unsuited for the mode.

[RedAvenged.5217]

17 minutes ago, Beddo.1907 said:

Go on explain how Soulbeast has higher sustain.
I don't see how any of my points is wrong (altho, it will be a bit outdated post balance patch)

As for the difficulty.
Untamed is harder to play, while Soulbeast is harder to play effectively on high lvl, due to the kit being unsuited for the mode.

How does soulbeast have higher sustain?

 

idk maybe it’s the multiple sustain based trait lines and the 3 stun breaks/condi cleanses you take-

 

durrr or maybe it’s the invulnerability you take durr.

 

the ONLY argument for untamed having higher sustain is the elite which has damage reduction.

 

 

[Sansar.1302]

On 2/4/2023 at 11:00 PM, RedAvenged.5217 said:

How does soulbeast have higher sustain?

 

idk maybe it’s the multiple sustain based trait lines and the 3 stun breaks/condi cleanses you take-

 

durrr or maybe it’s the invulnerability you take durr.

 

the ONLY argument for untamed having higher sustain is the elite which has damage reduction.

 

 

and the 10% life steal on all attacks the 2k+ life steal attack on short cd, hig barrier , better heal skill, passive damage reduction

[RedAvenged.5217]

27 minutes ago, Sansar.1302 said:

and the 10% life steal on all attacks the 2k+ life steal attack on short cd, hig barrier , better heal skill, passive damage reduction

No untamed only has life steal and damage reduction if you happen to be using it which is not that often

 

The heal skill is also not better, there is a reason almost no one uses it and you can already get plenty of barrier and complete damage immunity in multiple forms as soulbeast.

 

soulbeast at least as we play it definitely has more sustain than untamed.

 

also dps soulbeast has some of the best boon access in the game on top of that

 

there is no doubt in my mind that soulbeast played well has more sustain 

[Sansar.1302]

2 minutes ago, RedAvenged.5217 said:

No untamed only has life steal and damage reduction if you happen to be using it which is not that often

 

The heal skill is also not better, there is a reason almost no one uses it and you can already get plenty of barrier and complete damage immunity in multiple forms as soulbeast.

 

soulbeast at least as we play it definitely has more sustain than untamed.

 

also dps soulbeast has some of the best boon access in the game on top of that

 

there is no doubt in my mind that soulbeast played well has more sustain 

Simply not true

[RedAvenged.5217]

5 minutes ago, Sansar.1302 said:

Simply not true

What isn’t true?

the part of where u said all attacks heal you for massive amounts and u get a 2k steal on top of that

 

even though no one takes that skill and the 2k is at best infrequent if it even hits which it often doesn’t?

 

soulbeast has 4 pet swaps which give stats, stab, healing and absolutely insane boon stacking plus-

2 damage immunities 

 

on top of the fact that in the kit you already take much more sustain.

 

I am not lying about this. I have played both and it is clear which one has more

[Mell.4873]

10 hours ago, RedAvenged.5217 said:

What isn’t true?

the part of where u said all attacks heal you for massive amounts and u get a 2k steal on top of that

 

even though no one takes that skill and the 2k is at best infrequent if it even hits which it often doesn’t?

 

soulbeast has 4 pet swaps which give stats, stab, healing and absolutely insane boon stacking plus-

2 damage immunities 

 

on top of the fact that in the kit you already take much more sustain.

 

I am not lying about this. I have played both and it is clear which one has more

The reality is they are bother great. 

This is mobility argument again. 

 

If you play a very specific Soulbeast build you will have better sustain than Untamed. The opposite is true for Untamed, most builds have good sustain simply because of the damage reduction Unleashing your pet gives you (not to mention the unleashed pet skills). 

Soulbeast is very mobile but its only a very specific build, while Untamed in general has better access to mobility through super speed. 

Edited February 11, 2023 by Mell.4873

[Zyreva.1078]

5 hours ago, Mell.4873 said:

If you play a very specific Soulbeast build you will have better sustain than Untamed. The opposite is true for Untamed, most builds have good sustain simply because of the damage reduction Unleashing your pet gives you (not to mention the unleashed pet skills). 

10 % dmg reduction alone doesn't make much difference and when building for sustain, untamed tends to lose out on more dmg than soulbeast (which is why it is typically played fairly glassy in PvP). Soulbeast also has access to dolyak stance and unflinching fortitude, which makes it much better at surviving when getting focused. So while it is ofc possible to build tanky untamed builds, those tend to be worse overall than tanky soulbeast builds.

5 hours ago, Mell.4873 said:

Soulbeast is very mobile but its only a very specific build, while Untamed in general has better access to mobility through super speed. 

Still not true.

[Mell.4873]

1 hour ago, UmbraNoctis.1907 said:

10 % dmg reduction alone doesn't make much difference and when building for sustain, untamed tends to lose out on more dmg than soulbeast (which is why it is typically played fairly glassy in PvP). Soulbeast also has access to dolyak stance and unflinching fortitude, which makes it much better at surviving when getting focused. So while it is ofc possible to build tanky untamed builds, those tend to be worse overall than tanky soulbeast builds.

Still not true.

Isn't that what I said? 

Untamed has simple sustain. Things like damage reduction, life steal, lowering cooldowns, barrier, ect. 

Soulbeast has more complex sustain. Things like poison applications, Stances (griffen/dolyak are both amazing and incredibly hard to time), Merge skills. 

 

There doesn't need to completion both have there place in the meta. For example I normally use Untamed for Zerg pushes, while Soulbeast for defending. It makes perfect sense from what we both laid out. 

When you attack you want to sustain the push for longest amount of time, Soulbeast would run out os steam to quickly. While defending where you might need to run or jump in at a moment notice, this is when Soulbeast is amazing.

 

Who runs both mobility pets in PvP, I sure don't. If you minus even one Untamed is faster. 

Edited February 11, 2023 by Mell.4873

[Zyreva.1078]

33 minutes ago, Mell.4873 said:

Isn't that what I said?

No.

33 minutes ago, Mell.4873 said:

Who runs both mobility pets in PvP, I sure don't. If you minus even one Untamed is faster. 

No.

Edited February 11, 2023 by UmbraNoctis.1907

[RedAvenged.5217]

4 hours ago, Mell.4873 said:

Isn't that what I said? 

Untamed has simple sustain. Things like damage reduction, life steal, lowering cooldowns, barrier, ect. 

Soulbeast has more complex sustain. Things like poison applications, Stances (griffen/dolyak are both amazing and incredibly hard to time), Merge skills. 

 

There doesn't need to completion both have there place in the meta. For example I normally use Untamed for Zerg pushes, while Soulbeast for defending. It makes perfect sense from what we both laid out. 

When you attack you want to sustain the push for longest amount of time, Soulbeast would run out os steam to quickly. While defending where you might need to run or jump in at a moment notice, this is when Soulbeast is amazing.

 

Who runs both mobility pets in PvP, I sure don't. If you minus even one Untamed is faster. 

 Yes complex versus simple is the main thing I was talking about.

 

thought process on untamed- O I’m in trouble I need to use the pet bubble and cast my elite

 

thought process on soulbeast- o I’m in trouble I need to

1.) cast quickness to extend my stability

2.) merge pet and than swap to the other pet to get damage immunity 

3.) I need to count 10 seconds while running and stealthing to get more quickness

4.) I need to swap pets again and somehow burst them with no cds

 

 

[RedAvenged.5217]

11 hours ago, Mell.4873 said:

The reality is they are bother great. 

This is mobility argument again. 

 

If you play a very specific Soulbeast build you will have better sustain than Untamed. The opposite is true for Untamed, most builds have good sustain simply because of the damage reduction Unleashing your pet gives you (not to mention the unleashed pet skills). 

Soulbeast is very mobile but its only a very specific build, while Untamed in general has better access to mobility through super speed. 

I don’t take into account a tankier untamed build. If you tried to do wilderness as a dps untamed- you will just be worst than a soulbeast.

 

 

power untamed doesn’t benefit from more sustain meanwhile soulbeast benefits a lot from those traits and also soulbeast doesn’t need more damage so it’s vice versa

 

note I have tried tanky condi untamed builds- they are ehh, not gonna discuss condi

Edited February 11, 2023 by RedAvenged.5217

[Mell.4873]

@RedAvenged.5217

The thing that I don't understand is why does it have to be a competition. Bother Ranger elites have there place in the PvP meta. 

Right now Untamed even comes out of top but I'm sure no one on this thread wants to hear that. 

 

Soulbeast is amazing when played is a very specific way much like how you outline but what people don't understand is you cant always preform your ideal rotation, in this case Untamed has better sustain. 

 

@UmbraNoctis.1907

Again why do we need to compete for mobility. Untamed has more Super Speed applications while Soulbeast has more movement abilities. 

It almost seems your salty that you don't like Untamed and its doing so well in the PvP meta. 

Edited February 11, 2023 by Mell.4873

[RedAvenged.5217]

14 minutes ago, Mell.4873 said:

@RedAvenged.5217

The thing that I don't understand is why does it have to be a competition. Bother Ranger elites have there place in the PvP meta. 

Right now Untamed even comes out of top but I'm sure no one on this thread wants to hear that. 

 

Soulbeast is amazing when played is a very specific way much like how you outlines but what people don't understand is you cant always preform your ideal rotation, in this case Untamed has better sustain. 

 

@UmbraNoctis.1907

Again why do we need to compete for mobility. Untamed has more Super Speed applications while Soulbeast has more movement abilities. 

It almost seems your salty that you don't like Untamed and its doing so well in the PvP meta. 

I care about accurate information.

 

I have played both in plat3 matches and have 1v1d and beat some of the best rangers in game on both.

 

The new soulbeast build is harder than untamed and has better sustain played correctly.

 

I don’t want people to think otherwise because than anet will go and mess up balancing like they are rn with this new patch

 

 

[Mell.4873]

6 minutes ago, RedAvenged.5217 said:

I care about accurate information.

True, well you are correct in your breakdown.