Why Does Necro Have So Many Weaknesses?

[DeceiverX.8361]

On 2/1/2023 at 8:46 PM, Yasai.3549 said:

Imo the only reason why Reaper is kinda floppy in terms of DPS consistency is the fact your entire damage is tied to the Shroud mechanic. If you take a hit and lose life force, your DPS directly suffers and it cannot be healed like other classes. If you exhaust your Shroud cooldowns, you are stuck with maintaining subpar DPS for the next 10s.

Which is why the change on Speed of Shadows is literally one of the worst ever changes reaper has faced in competitive.

Flickering Shroud and movespeed that couldn't be converted/stripped made the spec work like a well-oiled machine despite the insistence by a lot of bad necromancers that the change was somehow a buff.

[pcgamefreak.5208]

On 1/31/2023 at 11:13 PM, Zex Anthon.8673 said:

Let's start with the obvious trade off.

• Second health bar, therefore no blocks or evades.

Makes sense, though fully mitigating damage is always better than sponging it up. Shroud does have the advantage of soaking damage while allowing you to be offensive, but it is also tied to a resource that isn't always accessible.

Now let's list all the weaknesses that necro has to add "counterplay" to the class.

• No mobility, so you can play around shroud defense by running away and letting degen do its work.
• No stability, so necro is weak to cc. Shroud defense up? Just cc and let degen do its work.
• No sustain, lets ignore the fact that necro relies heavily on environmental deaths to maintain lifeforce for its only defense. Necro has no way resustaining its first health bar aside from its 1 heal skill. Some quick calculations show that you would have to attack 12 times per second with lifesteal to have comparable sustain to other classes with traits that give that healing for free. 12!
• Low damage, the amount of hoops that necro has to jump through to achieve burst damage is insane. You have to take no defense traits and run full glass stats, and even then the burst has some caveats like the opponent has to have no boons or <50% hp.  Other classes can run full glass and at least last 15+ seconds in a fight when being focused by using defensive utility. Not necro, if you run full glass you are dead within 1 second of running out of dodges.

It really feels like this class is not allowed to be good. People will complain about how op necro is and they will use the second health bar to justify the above weaknesses despite it already being a tradeoff for blocks and evades. But, what do I know. According to the devs, "necro is already pretty good."

 

 

It's a shame more players don't tell the truth about the game like this.  I've been pointing this out and more forever now.  If you look at every class on paper, it's not hard to see why GW2 has the worst class balance ever, thus the worst PvP ever made.  Necro's have nothing....  The class was clearly designed to create heavy conditional damage and turn Boons into conditions.  How can that concept work when you have added resistance to all other classes EXCEPT NECRO and that's on top of their skills that already clean conditions...  The Necro's abilities are amongst the lowest when it comes to raw damage output.  Marks are useless,  therefore the Staff as a weapon is useless.  I've seen players jump up and down in Marks and laugh.  Necro's have no good Elite skills, it's all slow or too tiny garbage.  The Necro generates no meaningful amount of Boons and the ones you do generate, they only last like 3 seconds, so basically they don't exists when it comes to other classes and Boon uptime.  I've played the Necro long enough in WvW to know, each build version you do, they all have their weaknesses that can not be overcome.  On top of being a broken class, you're abilities deal damage to YOU!!!  The only good Necros in WvW are cheating Necros and I do see them from time to time, clearly cheating.

This last class given to Necros is a joke!!  You're basically a walking "kill myself" class.

If you're running Core Necro, the first thing you're going to get is CC'ed because core Necro has no stability and that's almost instant defeat against other classes and players know this, which is why they'll pull you first or do a knock back/down....they know you can't stop it.  Everything the Necro has skill/trait wise is garbage.  What's the point in a trait granting health on conditional damage if that health is so tiny, it does nothing to help sustain you.... ??

You can stack all the health and toughness, along with carapace stacks and as a Necro, you still drop large chunks of health per damage taken.  I've watched players standing still with glass classes taking damage from a tower guard and take little damage per hit.  When I do the same thing on my tanked up Necro, with tower guard defense maxed out, I take way more damage per hit than any other player.  Now that's either a Necro thing or my account has been Nerfed because of speaking the truth about the game and I would not rule out the latter.

I've looked at PvP on titles like Final Fantasy 14 online and that game does not share GW2's bad concepts and brokenness, which is why I'm leveling a character right now on FF14 and can not wait until it's ready to jump into the PvP.  Classes are role built in FF14 and dominate at that role.  That alone sends it far beyond that of GW2's mess.  You can see that GW2 has taken concepts from games like FF14 but did a poor job at it.  Yes FF14 run zergs and three teams on a battlefield but it's nothing like the mess GW2 has come up with.  Players are not running around cheating the game like crazy in FF14 because that stuff gets addressed and players do get banned.  The content is also higher in FF14's PvP.

That's more reason for GW2's "Devs" to fix the Necro class and change the bad concepts of WvW because with titles like FF14 having better PvP, there's no real reason to stick around GW2 and the only reason a lot of players do, is because it's free-to-play and better titles like FF14 has a monthly fee, which I do not mind paying and currently is paying.  The graphics, the world, the fashion....  It's all better in FF14.  FF14's gear is about item level too, the color is really not that important and part of the reason things are so leveled when it comes to gear is the fact, FF14 is about glamor in the end.  Even your action tray is leveled in PvP in FF14.

Who ever these "Devs" are for GW2....  Just quit...because game design is not your place.  Even world of warcraft wasn't as bad as GW2 and all warcraft had to do was change several things about the game and boom, greatness but the "Devs" chose to be hard-headed and kept making things even worst until the accounts started to go dry.  Some say GW2 "Devs" are the old "WOW" development team and I wouldn't rule that out given the "WOW-like" things I've seen in GW2.  If that's true, then that's yet another reason to jump to FF14.

 

[CafPow.1542]

So much QQ.

i suggest you guys read some threads in the other profession subforums and see the salt about „muh class bad“ there to realize how silly you sound.

every one on this forum seems to think that anet specifically hates his class and would like to personally come by to kill his dog only because he plays profession X.

the sad thing is: while all professions have a few issues and weaknesses (yes all do), non of this overdramatic nonsense makes you guys sound like you should be taken serious. With this immense amount of unqualified whining you hurt the case of justified critique more than any fanboy ever could.

but go ahead.

Edited January 22 by CafPow.1542

[trunks.5249]

 my minion reaper is almost unkillable. i have yet found a weakness

[RainWater.4762]

Necros are currently well positioned. Neither too strong nor too weak. Core Necro may come back into fashion as a tanky condition maker. But he is not good as a roamer because it's just too slow and has no stability. Scourge is good in zerg and harbinger is an autopilot in 1v1.
I only play WvW with the staff power Reaper with axe / focus and rarely have problems. And I don't cheat.
If you like the Necro class you have enough options to adapt it to the game. And there is nothing more satisfying than annoying your opponents with the reaper, because he’s just not “OP”. But to be honest Harbinger should be adjusted. He is too strong. That’s a fact and shouldn’t be discussed. All other Necro classes are ok. Just don't make the Reaper stronger, otherwise I won't have any more challenges in WvW.

[August.5934]

[Power Reaper]

On 2/1/2023 at 5:13 AM, Zex Anthon.8673 said:

No mobility, so you can play around shroud defense by running away and letting degen do its work.

Yep, we got no mobility expect for 1 skill, Death's Charge. We either have to evade the attack (V-roll) or soak all the damage in Reaper shroud (-33% dmg reduction) and from Infusing Terror (-66% dmg + condi reduction).

On 2/1/2023 at 5:13 AM, Zex Anthon.8673 said:

No stability, so necro is weak to cc. Shroud defense up? Just cc and let degen do its work.

We got very generous amout of stability from Chilled to the bone!(10s) and from Infusing Terror(6s). 

On 2/1/2023 at 5:13 AM, Zex Anthon.8673 said:

No sustain, lets ignore the fact that necro relies heavily on environmental deaths to maintain lifeforce for its only defense. Necro has no way resustaining its first health bar aside from its 1 heal skill. Some quick calculations show that you would have to attack 12 times per second with lifesteal to have comparable sustain to other classes with traits that give that healing for free. 12!

No. you don't have to relay on environment deaths. I use Greatsword + Dagger/dagger. Just from dagger skill 1 (auto-attack) i recover 12% of my lifeforce each time i complete the chain. From the Signet of Undeath i recover 4% life force every 3s passively during the combat. I recover full 100% lifeforce in less 10s; 5s if enemy is standing still and just soaking all the attacks.

On 2/1/2023 at 5:13 AM, Zex Anthon.8673 said:

Low damage, the amount of hoops that necro has to jump through to achieve burst damage is insane. You have to take no defense traits and run full glass stats, and even then the burst has some caveats like the opponent has to have no boons or <50% hp.  Other classes can run full glass and at least last 15+ seconds in a fight when being focused by using defensive utility. Not necro, if you run full glass you are dead within 1 second of running out of dodges

Reaper Low damage? nah i don't see that, Unless you talking about pure DPS by standing still in a copium plastic builds (like grande engi),... i basically one shot everything. Without 0 support from other players, my Soul Spiral hits for +60k crit (+80k~ 100k while in group cause of tons of boons and debuff on enemy). Reaper Shroud auto attack hits for 10k to18k crit. Reaper Does such a good damage that i solo'ing HP Frog is like a walk in the park. I run on full berserker set. Always full berserker everywhere cause i don't like playing condi builds.

I start my fight with this skills "combo".
Nightfall >  Grasping Darkness > "Chilled to the Bone!" > "You are all Weaklings!" > Death Spiral > (Reaper Shroud) > Soul Spiral > (reaper Auto attacks) > Executioner's Scythe (when less then 10% Lifeforce or early if enemy got Defence bar)... so on repeat. nothing much really, I barely get CC and if i get CC it should either be an unblockable CC or i do some mistake and in group fight, Cooldown of Chilled to the Bone! comes off early so i never run out of quickness or fury either, i have 100% quickness uptime even in my normal non-reaper mode 🤷‍♂️.

On 2/1/2023 at 5:13 AM, Zex Anthon.8673 said:

It really feels like this class is not allowed to be good. People will complain about how op necro is and they will use the second health bar to justify the above weaknesses despite it already being a tradeoff for blocks and evades. But, what do I know. According to the devs, "necro is already pretty good."

In PVP, Necro is by default a easiest target unless you stay in the group to get team support and in EVERYSINGLE PVP fight, i ALWAYS get targeted 1st cause people are aware that if they don't take me out 1st, i will shread them into pieces and toss them into Abyss!. Lack of mobility sure makes things really hard in PVP. Specially if there is guardian who keep teleporting places and i am only ever scared of Dragonhunter guardian who made his lifegoal to hunt me lmao. Dude just places all traps in one place and pull me inside it from far the moment my stability runs out. +30k crit, instant death.💀

[Strider.7849]

Necro is great in zergs but I feel it needs some improvements as it stands now for anything outside of that. The second life pool doesn't justify poor stability access, no blocks, and limited mobility outside of harbinger.

I know some people feel it's "easy" but to a veteran player or competent sPvPer, most of the time it's basically a free kill. I'm saying this as someone who doesn't main necro. It has very glaring weaknesses. Long cooldowns, long cast times, poor healing abilities, can get ping-pong'd around, highly telegraphed, vulnerable to ranged burst, can be kited easily, etc.

Ways I think necro could improve incrementally and then could be reassessed from there:

- Make flesh worm either stun break on cast AND return or cut the cast time significantly for it.

- return the old version of plague form. It was great for tanking damage when focused by multiple opponents without ripping off your whole shroud, allowed for safe stomping, and allowed necro to be able to roam. The current plague lands is garbage because of the long cooldown and its only good for dropping on already downed opponents.

- Reduce the cooldown of spectral walk. Better yet, having the old selectable trait for reduced cooldown on spectral skills with increased durations.

- Make well of power also pulse the 1 second of stability 5 times.

I think these few changes will benefit all parts of necro opening more roaming builds.

Edited January 27 by Strider.7849

[Daevhalla.7823]

I partially agree with the OP and I see all the other guys posting the possible solutions and all are partially right. Necros do get *some* acces to mobility (wurm, walk, swell, charge,..) but all except the spectral walk and wurm they are all specilaization specific, which is already a minus, BUT what is worse is if you compare necromancers to other specs.

Other specs get all that without having to beg for it. Not only do they get it but often times there's multiple benefits from one ability where necro would have to take one or two utilities to compensate for that. And I know people are calling necro a HP sponge and tbf it is, but what nobody sees is that other classes clearly get either skills that outright block all dmg and conditions, or they make the character invulnerable outright - to all dmg and conditions. Where a necro can die in a second - even with all the hp, others just block or prop the skill  - necros have no skills like that - even the shroud skill isn't a stun break, which means the lack of stability is a real weakness (and from what I see necromancers literally have a choice of taking the Well of Power utility, specing to scourge (1) or reaper (2), or being ok that the only source of stability will be an elite - long cooldown and therefore hard to access http://en.gw2skills.net/wiki/boons/stability/) - literally the only thing necros can do in a situation like that is to have a decent support party member or to have a utility bar full of stun breaks - and even those won't help when you're being the focus of 3-4 players with cc abilities.

And yes - in PvE this is not that much of a problem, necros are decent for what they do. Great dmg and sustain. But the moment one steps into any kind of PvP situation and the opposing player knows what they are doing, necros are at an alarming disadvantage. I know from experience, it is necros that constantly get targeted first in pvp situations (due to starting off with an empty lifeforce tank) and that usually succeeds and effectively sends them back to spawn. And even if necros would want to have a more roaming build in pvp, while it is doable it's just worse than a thief, ranger, ele or a mesmer (with great mobility skills or a steady swiftness application - with that also being quite bad for necros).

And yes, necros have a lot of skills that offset their weaknesses, but where other professions would take one utility to erase two or three of those weaknesses, or trait well into them, necros usually can't do that. Being a hp sponge simply isn't effective in a pvp setting, especially with how dmg scaling is at the moment, and the access players get to cc. And the access other professions get to either block abilities or nulify damage, makes anything a necromancer does pointless.

And let's not even mention the casting times, where many other professions simply feel faster and smoother due to lower casting times, even on utilities. I know I often run shouts or spectral abilities just for faster gameplay.

 

Don't get me wrong, necros are great and I love them, but there are some really glaring weaknesses when it comes to pvp especially, and they need to be corrected.

 

Edit: typos

Edited February 17 by Daevhalla.7823

[Daevhalla.7823]

Also, I know it's not mentioned often, but the number/amount and accessibility to combo finishers is abysmal. They are hard to come by except if you respec into reaper (which probably has the majority on them) or play underwater.

[Triptaminas.4789]

On 2/1/2023 at 10:21 AM, Axl.8924 said:

 

Many classes have downsides i've been playing warr and GS feel terrible on core and you want to build up adrenaline to burst only to get downed lose it after getting back up and not having burst no more GS rotos you in place OOF is all i gotta say.

 

Elementalist has its problems too so its not the only one.

 

Core classes get nerfed hard to make the elites feel good but thats just because arenanet in their wisdom want you to buy the new class and play it over vanilla cores so they nerf it hard enough to encourage you to buy the DLCS.

 

IF this is about elites:I don't know bout scourge or harbringer i do think 35k is kinda lowish sh ould be 37-38k in my opinion.

 

 

>many classes have downsides

What about guardian?

[SleepyBat.9034]

15 hours ago, Triptaminas.4789 said:

>many classes have downsides

What about guardian?

Low health pool

[Lan Deathrider.5910]

On 2/22/2024 at 2:31 PM, SleepyBat.9034 said:

Low health pool

Scepter AA.

[Lan Deathrider.5910]

On 2/17/2024 at 4:54 PM, Daevhalla.7823 said:

And yes - in PvE this is not that much of a problem, necros are decent for what they do. Great dmg and sustain. But the moment one steps into any kind of PvP situation and the opposing player knows what they are doing, necros are at an alarming disadvantage. I know from experience, it is necros that constantly get targeted first in pvp situations (due to starting off with an empty lifeforce tank) and that usually succeeds and effectively sends them back to spawn. And even if necros would want to have a more roaming build in pvp, while it is doable it's just worse than a thief, ranger, ele or a mesmer (with great mobility skills or a steady swiftness application - with that also being quite bad for necros).

And yes, necros have a lot of skills that offset their weaknesses, but where other professions would take one utility to erase two or three of those weaknesses, or trait well into them, necros usually can't do that. Being a hp sponge simply isn't effective in a pvp setting, especially with how dmg scaling is at the moment, and the access players get to cc. And the access other professions get to either block abilities or nulify damage, makes anything a necromancer does pointless.

And let's not even mention the casting times, where many other professions simply feel faster and smoother due to lower casting times, even on utilities. I know I often run shouts or spectral abilities just for faster gameplay.

 

Don't get me wrong, necros are great and I love them, but there are some really glaring weaknesses when it comes to pvp especially, and they need to be corrected.

 

Edit: typos

Necro and Warrior share a problem that Anet values their High HP and innate damage sponge abilities (High Armor for warrior along with strike damage immunity and shroud for necro coupled with high possible overal damage reduction) way too highly. Both get lots of self chip healing either from direct small heals (warrior), or life stealing (necro). It's always better to not take the hit true, but they both still have lots of built in sustain to offset the lack of active defenses that need consideration when introducing a new source of active defenses like an evade or block.

[Daevhalla.7823]

1 hour ago, Lan Deathrider.5910 said:

Necro and Warrior share a problem that Anet values their High HP and innate damage sponge abilities (High Armor for warrior along with strike damage immunity and shroud for necro coupled with high possible overal damage reduction) way too highly. Both get lots of self chip healing either from direct small heals (warrior), or life stealing (necro). It's always better to not take the hit true, but they both still have lots of built in sustain to offset the lack of active defenses that need consideration when introducing a new source of active defenses like an evade or block.

While that might be true the warrior at least gets some access to active protection, be it through utility or weapon skills (blocks and the like), necromancers get none of that. The closest they get is Corrosive cloud with projectile denial.

[Lan Deathrider.5910]

1 hour ago, Daevhalla.7823 said:

While that might be true the warrior at least gets some access to active protection, be it through utility or weapon skills (blocks and the like), necromancers get none of that. The closest they get is Corrosive cloud with projectile denial.

Yeah, that second health bar with added damage reduction gets valued very highly by Anet.

[Puck.3697]

On 2/1/2023 at 4:13 AM, Zex Anthon.8673 said:

t really feels like this class is not allowed to be good. People will complain about how op necro is and they will use the second health bar to justify the above weaknesses despite it already being a tradeoff for blocks and evades. But, what do I know. According to the devs, "necro is already pretty good."

im sorry but what?

Necro is extremely strong, and always been strong, it has been one of the classes thats in meta most consistently, 

On 2/27/2024 at 10:45 PM, Lan Deathrider.5910 said:

Necro and Warrior share a problem that Anet values their High HP and innate damage sponge abilities (High Armor for warrior along with strike damage immunity and shroud for necro coupled with high possible overal damage reduction) way too highly. Both get lots of self chip healing either from direct small heals (warrior), or life stealing (necro). It's always better to not take the hit true, but they both still have lots of built in sustain to offset the lack of active defenses that need consideration when introducing a new source of active defenses like an evade or block.

maybe at core, but elite speccs have been a boon to Necro While Warriors have consistently been returning to core weapons, with core weapon issues.

Necromancer by a mile is not a held back class Lol, we have been at several points where Statistics where necro has been like 60% of the entire playerpool in due to how strong its been again and again, Necro and guardian are forever loved lol, and sure at core back in GW2 Orginal launch, necro had a hard time lol, but they've consistently raised since then and have had alot of their "weaknesses plugged". I've seen some of these dual sword reapers run around and they arent that slow anymore. lol 

 

On 2/27/2024 at 11:58 PM, Daevhalla.7823 said:

While that might be true the warrior at least gets some access to active protection, be it through utility or weapon skills (blocks and the like), necromancers get none of that. The closest they get is Corrosive cloud with projectile denial.

are you really trying to make out as if "Atleast warrior is X" while in both pve and pvp necromancer has always been the Stronger of the 2 in metas?..... lol, its been years, since i've returned to the game and seen Warrior being consistently good, lol yet every time i come back, Necro is massively overplayed and Beloved. lol 

On 2/22/2024 at 3:51 AM, Triptaminas.4789 said:

What about guardian?

 

Low hp pool and High CDs, Low mobility (til willbender, but willbender takes trade offs there)

 

 

 

 

Edited March 2 by Puck.3697

[Lan Deathrider.5910]

6 minutes ago, Puck.3697 said:

maybe at core, but elite speccs have been a boon to Necro While Warriors have consistently been returning to core weapons, with core weapon issues.

Necromancer by a mile is not a held back class Lol, we have been at several points where Statistics where necro has been like 60% of the entire playerpool in due to how strong its been again and again, Necro and guardian are forever loved lol, and sure at core back in GW2 Orginal launch, necro had a hard time lol, but they've consistently raised since then and have had alot of their "weaknesses plugged". I've seen some of these dual sword reapers run around and they arent that slow anymore. lol 

I don't think I implied that they were held back? Shroud is an incredible source of defense and in the case of Reaper and Harbinger also very strong offense. Shroud is clearly highly valued by Anet. Harbinger got more active defenses since Shroud no longer protects HP. The core necro weapons are kind of meh. Warrior weapons, even core, are feeling pretty rough and old at this point... At least staff is fun to use...

[Puck.3697]

Just now, Lan Deathrider.5910 said:

don't think I implied that they were held back? Shroud is an incredible source of defense and in the case of Reaper and Harbinger also very strong offense. Shroud is clearly highly valued by Anet. Harbinger got more active defenses since Shroud no longer protects HP. The core necro weapons are kind of meh. Warrior weapons, even core, are feeling pretty rough and old at this point... At least staff is fun to use

Well yes, necro weapons have never been great and it’s been a case of their shrouds are their source of damage, shroud should be highly valued, with the amount of times necro has just been ridiculously overpowered. 
 

Necromancer seems to just have moved upwards consistently from core issues, things that come to warrior don’t seem to have the same effect, 

[Dadnir.5038]

On 3/2/2024 at 3:54 PM, Puck.3697 said:

Necro is extremely strong, and always been strong, it has been one of the classes thats in meta most consistently,

Strictly speaking you're wrong. The use of the word "always" is inappropriate. It's true that the last 4 years have been sweet for the necromancer but before that there were many areas where the profession wasn't great. The major weak point of the necromancer have been PvE until a breakthrough late 2019 so 7 years after the release of the game (it's to the point that you would have been kicked out of most groups/raids in PvE just for playing necromancer until PoF release).

[Puck.3697]

8 hours ago, Dadnir.5038 said:

trictly speaking you're wrong. The use of the word "always" is inappropriate. It's true that the last 4 years have been sweet for the necromancer but before that there were many areas where the profession wasn't great. The major weak point of the necromancer have been PvE until a breakthrough late 2019 so 7 years after the release of the game (it's to the point that you would have been kicked out of most groups/raids in PvE just for playing necromancer until PoF release

Well true, I don’t rly go that far back when talking about this stuff though, what happened 5 years ago won’t be very relevant to today, but sure pre PoF the class wasn’t good. 
 

PoF came out in 2017 not 2019 although I do hear scourage wasn’t amazing early PoF, so ur prolly looking more alike 2018 when it rly came into strength 

Edited March 5 by Puck.3697

[Phyb.6704]

On 1/31/2023 at 8:13 PM, Zex Anthon.8673 said:

Let's start with the obvious trade off.

• Second health bar, therefore no blocks or evades.

Makes sense, though fully mitigating damage is always better than sponging it up. Shroud does have the advantage of soaking damage while allowing you to be offensive, but it is also tied to a resource that isn't always accessible.

Now let's list all the weaknesses that necro has to add "counterplay" to the class.

• No mobility, so you can play around shroud defense by running away and letting degen do its work.
• No stability, so necro is weak to cc. Shroud defense up? Just cc and let degen do its work.
• No sustain, lets ignore the fact that necro relies heavily on environmental deaths to maintain lifeforce for its only defense. Necro has no way resustaining its first health bar aside from its 1 heal skill. Some quick calculations show that you would have to attack 12 times per second with lifesteal to have comparable sustain to other classes with traits that give that healing for free. 12!
• Low damage, the amount of hoops that necro has to jump through to achieve burst damage is insane. You have to take no defense traits and run full glass stats, and even then the burst has some caveats like the opponent has to have no boons or <50% hp.  Other classes can run full glass and at least last 15+ seconds in a fight when being focused by using defensive utility. Not necro, if you run full glass you are dead within 1 second of running out of dodges.

It really feels like this class is not allowed to be good. People will complain about how op necro is and they will use the second health bar to justify the above weaknesses despite it already being a tradeoff for blocks and evades. But, what do I know. According to the devs, "necro is already pretty good."

 

Just talking about reaper as an example...

Mobility....
Sword 3 double leap.
Shroud 2 charge.

Stability.....

Shroud 3 single tap. Double tap it before its up so you can dot fear for a bar break burn. 

Well of power.

 

 

 

[Dadnir.5038]

17 hours ago, Puck.3697 said:

Well true, I don’t rly go that far back when talking about this stuff though, what happened 5 years ago won’t be very relevant to today, but sure pre PoF the class wasn’t good. 
PoF came out in 2017 not 2019 although I do hear scourage wasn’t amazing early PoF, so ur prolly looking more alike 2018 when it rly came into strength 

But Scourge was considered trash in PvE for a relatively long time. It was labeled the noob carry that you would only use for training raid. It took a lot of time and effort for the community to acknowledge anything else than going full dps in the PvE meta. The community only started to accept the fact that going full dps isn't necessarily the only way when a defensive team with Scourge at it's center got close to win a PvE raid competition.

[XECOR.2814]

•  Necromancer is extremely good in all PVE scenarios atm. Be it open world, fractals,strikes, raids or their cms.
•  In PVP, it is under performing for a long time now.
  Now that its basic feature of corrupting boon is gone, all the nerfs over the years compile and came into realization at once and made every build bad since the corrupts were propping up necros place in pvp heavily.
  There are a couple of playable builds like condi reaper but at the top most level, all builds are just unplayable.
  You can see that reflecting in AT.
• In wvw, Scourge went through million hoops to still be meta as a support+corrupt role now instead of dps+corrupt role.
  A side effect of it going through million changes is that tons of traits and utility skills are over nerfed and any kind of build for solo or mid scale aside from cel harb is just trash tier. You cannot make a power build at all on this class., it will get deleted in 1/2 sec by willbenders and thieves.

In general whenever devs look at necromancer in competitive settings they always low ball the changes, scared that the build will become broken.
An example would be how the new swords were extremely under tuned and still is (by like 10% power scaling on all skills), another example is like nerfing heal on blighter boon when they changed its effect.
The make preemptive attempts to balance the builds whereas they just completely let it rip with stuff like thief axes, coefficients and condition durations, similarly willbender power coefficients in wvw.
Another example would be the amount of bloat the elementalist's reworked weapon skills have. They overlook many of the power and heal coefficients, durations on other classes. Similar case for ranger weapons that receives mandatory bloat every other patch for no reason even though every skills does minimum 4 effects already.
But the "balance" on this class is always heavy handed.
Not to mention the "reworked" signets and made them useless in every gamemode.

Edited March 5 by XECOR.2814

[Phyb.6704]

4 hours ago, Dadnir.5038 said:

But Scourge was considered trash in PvE for a relatively long time. It was labeled the noob carry that you would only use for training raid. It took a lot of time and effort for the community to acknowledge anything else than going full dps in the PvE meta. The community only started to accept the fact that going full dps isn't necessarily the only way when a defensive team with Scourge at it's center got close to win a PvE raid competition.

The thing is..... you do not NEED 4 x 40k dps and 1 support to clear ANY content. Nor do you need 8 40k dps and 2 support to clear ANY content. It is just about clearing it faster. You do not actually need that much dps to clear anything. You also do not NEED alac or quickness to clear anything.

Gw2 does not have a super high dps req other then players wanting to kill stuff faster. It is not needed. The stuff with big timers are generally meta events in the open world and most are def not in full dps gear. Many are just on skyscales shooting fireballs and rarely is there a problem clearing the events. 

Scourge offers a differnt style. You can get a lot more gutsy with your dps because they can easily just get you back up if you get downed. You can go really hard and not avoid a aoe that would 1 hit you because the barrier gives you the extra you need to survive it. It is a necro... it makes sense to have this flavor. It is just most want to avoid everything and never go downed. It is a different play style. I do not mind at all just playing like a zombie. Keep dps'ing hard with barriers stacked and if I do down just pop back up near instantly like a zombie. It is great for fights with tons of mechanics you would normally want to dodge. That movment to constantly dodge can effect the speed of dps. 
Players just do not always enjoy that style. But then players have issues staying within 600 range of a staff warrior to get the stupid amount of healing they push out and then complain when they die. Players also dont understand you want to be between a druid and the target to get the most healing. You need to know what style your healers is. If you play the way you would with a healbrand when you have a scourge. Yeah.... not going to be so great. 

There are times when everyone stops dps to run out of a aoe that will 1 hit them and a scourge just stacks barrier up and then instantly gets the 2 that had like 12k base hp back up instantly. Do not gota run out and waste time. Scourge is the best at letting you ignore mecahnics and keep pressure. 

Edited March 5 by ohericoseo.4316

[Daevhalla.7823]

On 3/2/2024 at 3:54 PM, Puck.3697 said:

On 2/28/2024 at 12:58 AM, Daevhalla.7823 said:

While that might be true the warrior at least gets some access to active protection, be it through utility or weapon skills (blocks and the like), necromancers get none of that. The closest they get is Corrosive cloud with projectile denial.

are you really trying to make out as if "Atleast warrior is X" while in both pve and pvp necromancer has always been the Stronger of the 2 in metas?..... lol, its been years, since i've returned to the game and seen Warrior being consistently good, lol yet every time i come back, Necro is massively overplayed and Beloved. lol 

On 2/22/2024 at 4:51 AM, Triptaminas.4789 said:

What about guardian?

 

Low hp pool and High CDs, Low mobility (til willbender, but willbender takes trade offs there)

Just to start necros are actively played by a lot of players probably due to the aesthetic and playstyle it offers, it's true that a halfway decent necromancer doesn't ask for a lot of skill, it is also one with probably the highest solo sustain out in the beginners pve. There is a reason some classes get recommended to newbie players constantly.

And yes, in that conversation we were comparing warrior to necro and going "At least warrior gets x when ..." is what you do when you compare features and skills and the like. And I don't know what kind of content you have been playing but a skilled warrior player will outperform a similarly skilled necromancer player most of the time.

Just to add, mobility was never (and I mean NEVER) a problem for a guardian. They have a pretty solid access to both swiftness and quickness, (also stability which helps) and many of their utility and weapon skills give them access to shadowstepping, of the top of my head I can think of at least 3 and I don't even play guardian a lot.

21 hours ago, ohericoseo.4316 said:

Just talking about reaper as an example...

Mobility....
Sword 3 double leap.
Shroud 2 charge.

Stability.....

Shroud 3 single tap. Double tap it before its up so you can dot fear for a bar break burn. 

Well of power.

The problem is that is literally all that you get.

1 mobility on shroud (with an exception on harb)

Swords are new, and also don't make sense, putting a leap on a ranged weapon just because the playerbase was asking for some more mobility is not an answer.

Stability is tied to elites almost exclusively, with the exception of Well of Power - which has never been a meta and is laughable that you must take (and the shroud on reaper, which you actually need to get to - imagine channeling a 2-3 second mantra that can easily be interrupted mid fight to get to some stability - that is exactly how conveninent that is)

There is also spectral walk, wurm and the desert one on scourge and there you have all your utilities filled just to get what other classes can get from their weapons or 1-2 utilities alone.