February 14 Balance Update Preview

[ZeroTheRuler.7415]

On 2/2/2023 at 4:19 PM, Rubi Bayer.8493 said:

Thief

Rifle saw some improvements in the last balance update, but it's still outshined by dagger in most power deadeye builds. We do want rifle to be a viable pick, and we're bumping up the damage a bit more. We've also made a usability improvement to Deadeye's Mark, which will no longer be lost when entering the downed state.

Specter is another support build in PvE that struggles with might generation compared to some other options. We've shifted the self-only might from Shadow Sap into area-of-effect might and bumped up the might on Well of Bounty with the goal of making alacrity-focused specter builds more competitive.

Core

• Signets of Power: This trait has been reworked. It now causes signet skills to grant initiative when activated.
• Signet of Malice: Reduced cooldown from 15 seconds to 12 seconds.
• Signet of Shadows: Reduced cooldown from 20 seconds to 16 seconds.
• Infiltrator's Signet: Reduced cooldown from 30 seconds to 24 seconds in PvE, and from 35 seconds to 28 seconds in

For PvE I do not think Signet's of Power will ever be taken over Twin Fangs. I could see it be taken In WvW / PvP though for sure. Overall I never really used the trait signet's of power, but I might in the future. It will be interesting to see how it ends up. I like this change.

On 2/2/2023 at 4:19 PM, Rubi Bayer.8493 said:

• Trickster: This trait no longer reduces the cooldown of trick skills. Increased the number of conditions removed from 1 to 2.
• Caltrops: Reduced cooldown from 30 seconds to 24 seconds.
• Haste: Reduced cooldown from 30 seconds to 24 seconds in PvE, and from 45 seconds to 35 seconds in PvP and WvW.
• Roll for Initiative: Reduced cooldown from 35 seconds to 28 seconds in PvE, and from 50 seconds to 35 seconds in PvP and WvW. Reduced initiative gain from 6 to 4 in PvP and WvW.

The Trickster change seems good and aligned with the changes to cooldown reducing traits. Personally I think the only trick skill that I take currently on any of my builds is withdraw or dagger storm's. Note: both cooldowns for withdraw or dagger storm were not touched at all. The cooldown for withdraw is pretty low already, but it lost the additional potential benefit. The potential cooldown for dagger storm was much higher 72s. I am ok with it, but some in the thieves community are wondering why those two skills weren't adjusted as well.

These changes might lead to some fun gameplay :D. My all thieves guild is already discussing some potential builds for it

Caltrops. I asked some of my thief friends who do benches for if they would ever take it for a condition daredevil PvE build. They said no. This is what they said.

Quote

caltrops applies every second, over a 10 second duration so the last bleed damage is dealt ~30 seconds after you cast. This means then you have another 20 seconds until that next caltrops is done applying all its full damage

https://cdn.discordapp.com/attachments/380903574282174466/1071534958633553920/image.png

For PvE I wonder if caltrops should be changed again in the future so it works better (there's some problems with the skill from a PvE perspective). I think it may be possibly be great for WvW / PvP though!

Haste. I think this is really only useful for open world or PvP / WvW. There isn't any group content that would take it, but this is a good QoL change still.

Roll for Initiative: I could see why people might be upset over the change to initiative in competitive modes at first glance. Someone else worked it out and it is slightly better because you can do 3 rolls in 105s vs 2 in 100s and the initiative gain is the same (so it ends up being better which is awesome news).

On 2/2/2023 at 4:19 PM, Rubi Bayer.8493 said:

• Skelk Venom: Reduced cooldown from 30 seconds to 25 seconds.
• Keen Observer: Reduced health threshold requirement from 90% to 75% in PvE only.

Love these changes. I use Skelk Venoms on my Condi Specter and it will go very well with those builds. The Keen Observer trait is a awesome change! The Keen Observer trait will make power thief less jailed to being above 90% hp. Twin Fangs, Keen Observer and Scholar Runes all require 90% HP right now.

On a side note. It would have been nice if Twin Fangs were also adjusted from 90% to 75% in PvE only.

On 2/2/2023 at 4:19 PM, Rubi Bayer.8493 said:

Daredevil

• Steal is no longer replaced by Swipe when the daredevil specialization is equipped.
• Impairing Daggers: Reduced cooldown from 25 seconds to 18 seconds.
• Impact Strike: Reduced cooldown from 40 seconds to 30 seconds.

So basically the steal change is a revert of a 2019 change where swipe was added to physical supremacy. According to the stream the steal will also have a reduced cooldown from 30s -> 25s. This means a better steal cooldown and a range increase from 600 to 1200 for daredevils. The unlockable though, that's a tough pill to swallow for competitive play, but then again it might make for some new playstyles (or old ones, for people who have been doing competitive for a long time).

Impairing Daggers: no complaints here. I know some people were taking it before with brawlers tenacity (reduced cooldown), but that meant being a lot more squishy. I like this change. Actually I am surprised brawlers tenacity wasn't mentioned since it is a trait that reduces cooldown of physical skills. Was brawlers tenacity missed in the notes and stream?

Impact Strike: exciting change. I wonder how this will look like after the patch is applied :D.

On 2/2/2023 at 4:19 PM, Rubi Bayer.8493 said:

Deadeye

• Deadeye's Mark is no longer removed when the deadeye goes into the downed state.
• Brutal Aim: Increased power coefficient from 0.6 to 0.75 in PvE only.
• Deadly Aim: Increased power coefficient from 1.0 to 1.1 in PvE only.
• Skirmisher's Shot: Increased power coefficient from 0.8 to 1.0 in PvE only.
• Spotter's Shot: Increased power coefficient from 1.15 to 1.3 in PvE only.
• Double Tap: Increased power coefficient per hit from 0.65 to 0.8 in PvE only.
• Three Round Burst: Increased power coefficient per hit from 0.75 to 0.85 in PvE only.
• Shadow Meld: This skill no longer removes revealed in PvP and WvW.

Let me start by saying awesome QoL for deadeye's mark. I think it should have gone a step further, but this would be more complex. If you are doing a fight and a enemy phases or goes invulnerable your DPS can often go down quite a bit since you can't remark to a new target if mark is on cooldown.

This is another topic, but I would really love for malice to display properly in areas like deep stone fractal (it goes completely black in the first half), desert boarder lands (it goes a light brown color where there is fog), jormag in drizzlewood (it goes blue and blends in with the icey areas in the north) etc....

The rest of the DPS buffs, I can't wait to see what it will look like.

Shadow Meld: This change... yikes. Deadeyes mark is essential for damage which requires stealth, stealth is essential for survival for deadeye in competitive modes. It doesn't matter on other professions so much, but it's awful to be revealed on deadeye. Shadow meld is currently the only counter play skill to counter revealed.

The reason in the stream for it's removal was just 'shadow meld does too much.' While that may be true, it might have been fair to replace reveal removal with something else or a slight adjustment in cooldown since it is a elite skill. Onto my last point. It becomes a larger issue if other revealed skills were designed or balanced around there being a counter for revealed in the first place.

Since this counter play was removed I think that some builds like soulbeast that use 'revealed' in their skills like 'sic em' should have their range or duration adjusted. Right now sick em has 2k range and for revealed for 6s. Overall I think the change to shadow meld are bad. That brings to my next point which I want to emphasize heavily.

In all fairness if the only counter for 'revealed'  is being removed from competitive game modes, then 'revealed' should be balanced as a 'whole'.

On 2/2/2023 at 4:19 PM, Rubi Bayer.8493 said:

Specter

• Shadow Sap: The enemy-targeted version of this skill now grants might in an area around the specter. The ally-targeted version of this skill now grants protection.
• Well of Silence: This skill has been reworked. It now dazes enemies on the initial strike, then removes conditions from allies in the area on each pulse. Gain shadow force for each condition removed. Reduced cooldown from 50 seconds to 40 seconds in PvP and WvW.
• Well of Bounty: Increased might stacks from 6 to 8 in PvE only.

Love these changes. Condi cleanse on a well, more might access on a well, and aoe might on scepter skill 2.

 

 

TLDR: I am excited for most of the changes to thief except shadow meld. Some in the thieves community are wondering withdraw or dagger storm cooldowns weren't adjusted given that those are also both tricks. Also Did Brawlers Tenacity get missed? 

Shadow Meld: In all fairness if the only counter for 'revealed'  is being removed from competitive game modes, then 'revealed' should be balanced as a 'whole'.

PS: Will we see changes to make thief less reliant on trickery for more initiative?

Edited February 7, 2023 by ZeroTheRuler.7415

[Damash.2754]

Quote

Signet of the Hunt: The active component of this skill now grants superspeed in addition to unblockable stacks. Reduced cooldown from 40 seconds to 20 seconds.

 

So, one the last key utility skill against classes with high blocking rate is getting nerfed. How does any Dev had the idea that this was nesessary? Really how?
Enjoy fights against Dragonhunter, Willbender and some sort of Ele and Mesmer. with an high blockrate.
This would be only a balancing move, if classes loosing most of they blocks, too. Does they? No.

What's the point of this nerf? Are 6 Seconds unblockable every 40 seconds that op?

So, unfortunately, you are forced more and more to set up far more defensively and possibly to go more to coditions. Simply because there is no more viable counterattack.

 

As an WvW Roamer the game went more and more uncomely.
During WvW blobbing Ranger and this Utility makes no difference at all, usually they not even viable. Even if now you Barrage on enemy blob and seeing jsut "Block" on your screen.

At the same time Untangled was buffed while perma Immob Druids are already pretty strong, if not even cheese.

Anet, you got some strange prorities.

 

 

[vinberdon.5283]

Quote

• Willbender virtues no longer remove the active effects of other willbender virtues.

 

Skipped all the Guardian changes to see if this was down there. Pleasantly surprised.

 

Also, buff Deadeye even more!

[Asum.4960]

17 hours ago, Nightara.1804 said:

WHAT.
Condi Harbinger is number eleven in the benchmark, with basically 40k DPS. cScourge and pReaper are at 35k.
Quickness Harbinger is at 32.5k, that's just 2.5k less than cScourge. QUICKNESS HARBINGER.

Yes, Harbinger only brings Quickness, Fury, and Swiftness, but it it literally the SECOND STRONGEST Quickness build in the game in terms of DPS. The only support build with more DPS is Alac Untamed, and Untamed is busted af.

Learn your benchmarks before spouting nonsense: https://snowcrows.com/en/benchmarks

While the way they delivered their complaints was dubious, and you are technically correct - do keep in mind that Benchmarks far from tell the whole story. 

cScourge (and even pReaper on Power favouring encounters) will generally outperform cHarbinger in practice, despite it's high but  inflated Benchmark. 

Where Harbinger is too slow with transferring self-condis with Deathly Swarm before they generally are cleansed by allies outside of golem benchmarking, Scourge doesn't have that issue as much with Desert Shroud being an instant trigger for Plague Sending, being both Shroud Entry and an Attack to trigger the trait in one - which can also be precasted mid BiP animation due to being instant cast and Scourge not losing it's Utility access in Shroud. Beyond that, it has far more DPS-uptime, being fully ranged, as well. 

Power Reaper on the other hand has far more burst and cleave for the encounter's favouring that. 

So cHarbinger might sit pretty on benchmarking sites with a seemingly impressive almost 40k - but in practice it's actually not particularly good. Hence you rarely ever see it in play, with it having the ~same if not lower playrate than even Reaper, despite having two available builds as both DPS and Quickness DPS.

As for being one of the strongest Quickness Builds in terms of DPS only, that's not particularly valuable as well, when it competes with Quickness Builds that do almost the same DPS (without unrealistic Benchmark inflation on their part), but also provide things like permanent Superspeed, Perma Protection, Cleanse Spam, etc., and especially Stability - which end up increasing the Group DPS as a whole far more than any individual DPS edge that Harb might have - let alone the far more valuable group success rate. 

Playing Quick Harbinger over qScrapper, qHerald or qFB and the like is imo borderline griefing with how far behind it is in comparison. 

 

So while some of their points were poorly put, and yours are technically correct, their misgivings and conclusion weren't actually wrong.

TL;DR:

Scourge will out-dps Harbinger on most condi-favoured/mechanically complex fights, and Reaper will out-dps it on power favoured/short/heavily-phased encounters - both while being severely more survivable, and esp. for Scourge while contributing to group success rate as well (such as with condi conversion, barriers). Playing qHarb over it's alternatives is doing your group a huge disservice. 

Harb benches well, that's about it.

Edited February 7, 2023 by Asum.4960

[Sagedurk.7358]

5 hours ago, vinberdon.5283 said:

 

Skipped all the Guardian changes to see if this was down there. Pleasantly surprised.

 

Also, buff Deadeye even more!

Do note that I only speak about PvE. No idea how this change will impact the other gamemodes.

 

The virtue override fix won't fix the pain points with alac willy. It's welcomed, but it won't fix our 2 GM trait requirements just to give party wide alac and it won't fix our lack of boons outside of alac

 

The class identity is all over the place, it's like they don't know what they actually want to do with willy!

 

Do they want willy to be an assassin? Then why is its damage so low? The current bench of alac untamed is on par with the power willy bench from before the June patch, and not much buffing has happened to power willy compared to the bench of 35k/s, if any. SC doesn't even have a bench visible on power willy currently

 

Do they want it to be power or condi focused? Signature weapon is OH sword, which is strictly power, physicals are power focused, but they seem to want to buff condi over power. 

 

And traits? Phoenix Protocol indicates that they want willy to have SOME teamplay, yet our master traits are not sharable. They gave us an adept trait focused on healing, but nothing is done to even slightly make heal willy a reality. Even the interaction between Absolute Resolve and Phoenix Protocol has been broken for a long time! Restorative Virtues is used for EVERY willy build, including heal willy

 

 

@Cal Cohen.2358 Willbender needs more changes to be where it should be in PvE. You can buff the numbers of alac willbender all you want, it won't fix the actual issues with support willbender. 

 

I'm not going to claim I know how to balance or that I am an expert player. But I do know a thing or two about willbender. I kept on playing power WB after the June patch, with sword/sword. I have played and want to play alac willbender but it's so janky that it's simply not worth it. I have even successfully handkited on Deimos with a Willbender build I made myself. I have 3k hours logged on guardian, vast majority on power, and since the EoD launch I have almost exclusively played Willbender.

 

And this patch doesn't feel like it'll fix the actual problems with willbender in PvE.

 

Cal, if you or any other dev with balance or class design knowledge do end up reading this, I want to know why we are forced into using Battle Presence for something as simple as sharing alacrity, and why we can't share our master traits through it, especially Holy Reckoning

 

[soulknight.9620]

I would like to say thank you for your work. Balance patch looks amazing, i like the ele, thief, bladesworn, necro changes. Keep up the good work guys. Youve proven your competence by making every single profession/elite have its uses and by introducing some LI builds for every class (which helps newer players alot).

 

After giving it a thought on the weekend here is my 2 cents of feedback on elementalist in pve:

General ele things:

Soothing Disruption requires some sort of compensation for the loss of cantrip duration part. Not much, but still it underperforms compared to other major traits its paired with. 

Armor of earth requires a bit of cd shave for pve. 6 secs of prot and stab on 50 sec cd is a bit too much. Something like 35-40 secs would allow this skill to be used when party lacks stab for important encounters.

Staff improvements are quite nice, although i would like to see something done about Meteor shower in pve. Maybe add a stack of burn (like 1 sec or so) on impact or something since staff is kinda became hybrid/condi weapon in its core now. 

Although i dont think you will address conjures with "on the fly" changes, but conjures are still a concern. Its barely usable outside of some "pick/use a skill/drop" situations and it requires some changes. 

Elementals also require some QoL changes. Here are a few proposals:

1) make them permanent like necro pets, adjust power accordingly;

2) make glyph of lesser elementals ammo based (so that you can actually spawn multiple copies of them in instanced content withouth extended precasts)

3) fix their interactions with mounts like dissapearing while mounting up. 

 

Tempest:

Lucid Singularity QoL change is very much a welcome one. 

Although i would like to suggest increasing the range on applying might in fire overload (the damage range could stay the same) so that ele could keep up with party since literary every encounter in game requires a bit of "movement". That would increase the QoL of this skill and heal alac tempest as a whole. 

 

Weaver:

Skill power coefficent buffs are nice, especially water ones and dual skills. 

As for peoples concern with dps being too high with these buffs i must dissagree. First of all weave self is not giving us dmg boost out of thin air, it replaces FGS which was kinda providing with approx 10-15% dps increase. So if weave self would end up boosting dmg by 15-20% during its duration the difference wouldt be that much. As for all of the buffs combined - the problem with ele always was its melee nature. Ive seen many times being ouDPSed by a rifle mech/viruoso/necro during some kite intensive fights only because they could continue to dps while i had to sit in the back and wait for the phase to end. So it is ok for weaver to have slighly better dps on less kite intensive encounters. Like ive said in other topics multiple times its not the "size of the benchmark" that matters, but rather "its application" in real fights. 

As for other things, i would like to propose a change in weaver traits to add some self quickness. Not much, no perma quickness or anything, but a sec or two to get things started in instanced fights or for QoL during open world roaming. 

 

Catalyst:

Now thats the part i have some issues with. Im not going to talk about pvp/wvw balance here. I think that was addressed appropriatly. But catalyst is in dire need of QoL changes to its basic mechanics. 

1) Please add a 0.5 sec icd on hammer 3 skills for activating the throw orbs skill. This is highly requested by the majority of ele players since there is a "bug" of a sort that even if you tap the skill once during ur auto cast it would automatically throw the orb at ur targed via doubletap.

Or just remove the ability to throw orbs untill all 4 of them are activated since basically there is literary NO incentive to throw 1-2-3 orbs like in any situation. 

2) Jade sphere energy. This has been talked a lot in the community and majority agrees that energy needs to go. Energy cost doesnt actually serve any purpose outside of overcomplicating the gameplay of catalyst for less skilled players. Since most skilled players can permanently use all 4 jade spheres in their rotation energy cost doesnt serve as a limiting factor at all. It just makes things worse for newer players. So either remove energy cost and balance the skill based on the cd (its basically balanced around this atm) or make it an ammunition based skill that can store 4 ammo and can be used in any attunement without cd. 

3) Please reconsider the nerfs to passive dmg from hammer 3 skills. To compensate for that lower some other skills (or modifiers) dps. Although i personally have no problems with this skill and i can get decent dps from catalyst synergy in its current state, but a lot of newer/less skilled players have difficulty delivering their dps cause atm all of the dps in cata is shifted from simple mechanics like hammer 3 sphere uptime to more difficult mechnics like different modifier uptime.

The current state makes it really hard to enjoy catalyst even in open world since there is literary very few situations when you can get all the modifiers to fight trash mobs or even vets, but hammer 3 spheres can be actually stacked quite fast. Besides that would actually create a healthy dilemma to players - "hold on to the spheres to do some aoe damage" or "shot them to get some spike damage". 

 

Edited February 7, 2023 by soulknight.9620

[Malus.2184]

As I see it Mechanist has three interconnected issues that no amount of number tweaking would ever solve. They need a complete rework to ever work. Two of them are general Mechanist issues and the thiord is a specific Power Mechanist issue.

- Shift Signet, this ability does FAR too much. Every build starts with this as playing Mechanist without is a non-starter due to the Boon duplication-

- Mechanical Genius, this ability feels clunky as you're punished for failing it instead of rewarded for succeeding at it.

- This is more for Power Mechanists. Ranged Mech Commands stops the mech dead in it's track. Melee attacks follow the target to be done. Both situations include the auto-attack where the mech stands still to shoot and moves to melee. This lowers Power Mechanist damage as the mech in order to do attacks will often end up outside of the Mechanical Genius range which further reduces damage ne way or the other.

The reworks on how to solve these issues, as I see it should come in conjunction with each other as only reqorking one will be disatrous for the others.

- Shift Signet, remive the Boon duplication. Even with "only" the passive Movement increase and active Teleport+Stun Break+Condi Removal this ability is amazing. The Boon Duplication only ensures that it's rarely used actively since it's a noticable part of damage.

- Change Mechanical Genius to instead give the Boon Duplication. This would make it easier to control, especially for ranged since the mech itself often stands out to the left field. For melee Mechanist this change would effectively mean no cha ge as they're always within the Mechanical Genius range of the mech anyway. It also changes the ability so that it feels as a reward for succeeding it instead of a punishment for failing it as you get something instead of losing something. It's similar to Tempest Overload. Right now, it feels like a punishment if you have to move, with it giving it's reward gradually and then aburst at the end it's going to feel like a reward instead to be able to complete it. And expand the range to 600 units as 360 is exceedingly brutal for ranged with how the AI is.

- Make it so that the mech can perform ranged attacks while moving. This will make no difference for melee Mechanists as Jade Mortar is already up in the face of the target, for ranged Mechanists this will do a lot as they can freely reposition the mech without suffering.

Edited February 7, 2023 by Malus.2184

[Nightara.1804]

1 hour ago, Malus.2184 said:

As I see it Mechanist has three interconnected issues that no amount of number tweaking would ever solve. They need a complete rework to ever work. Two of them are general Mechanist issues and the thiord is a specific Power Mechanist issue.

- Shift Signet, this ability does FAR too much. Every build starts with this as playing Mechanist without is a non-starter due to the Boon duplication-

- Mechanical Genius, this ability feels clunky as you're punished for failing it instead of rewarded for succeeding at it.

- This is more for Power Mechanists. Ranged Mech Commands stops the mech dead in it's track. Melee attacks follow the target to be done. Both situations include the auto-attack where the mech stands still to shoot and moves to melee. This lowers Power Mechanist damage as the mech in order to do attacks will often end up outside of the Mechanical Genius range which further reduces damage ne way or the other.

The reworks on how to solve these issues, as I see it should come in conjunction with each other as only reqorking one will be disatrous for the others.

- Shift Signet, remive the Boon duplication. Even with "only" the passive Movement increase and active Teleport+Stun Break+Condi Removal this ability is amazing. The Boon Duplication only ensures that it's rarely used actively since it's a noticable part of damage.

- Change Mechanical Genius to instead give the Boon Duplication. This would make it easier to control, especially for ranged since the mech itself often stands out to the left field. For melee Mechanist this change would effectively mean no cha ge as they're always within the Mechanical Genius range of the mech anyway. It also changes the ability so that it feels as a reward for succeeding it instead of a punishment for failing it as you get something instead of losing something. It's similar to Tempest Overload. Right now, it feels like a punishment if you have to move, with it giving it's reward gradually and then aburst at the end it's going to feel like a reward instead to be able to complete it. And expand the range to 600 units as 360 is exceedingly brutal for ranged with how the AI is.

- Make it so that the mech can perform ranged attacks while moving. This will make no difference for melee Mechanists as Jade Mortar is already up in the face of the target, for ranged Mechanists this will do a lot as they can freely reposition the mech without suffering.

Very good idea. I considered suggesting to make the boon copy baseline to remove the massive effect overload on Shift Signet (Also, please fix the German translations, it's hilariously wrong), but I actually like that idea even better. Still punishes bad positioning, frees up a utility slot (And makes one of the most overpowered skills in the game much more sensible). Not quite sure about the attacking while moving part, but better control over the mech is definitely needed. Maybe you could use F5 to place a "go here" marker? Similar to how Hero commands in GW1 worked?

[Nightara.1804]

10 hours ago, Damash.2754 said:

So, one the last key utility skill against classes with high blocking rate is getting nerfed. How does any Dev had the idea that this was nesessary? Really how?
Enjoy fights against Dragonhunter, Willbender and some sort of Ele and Mesmer. with an high blockrate.
This would be only a balancing move, if classes loosing most of they blocks, too. Does they? No.

What's the point of this nerf? Are 6 Seconds unblockable every 40 seconds that op?

So, unfortunately, you are forced more and more to set up far more defensively and possibly to go more to coditions. Simply because there is no more viable counterattack.

Please do everyone a favor and read that line again:

Signet of the Hunt: The active component of this skill now grants superspeed in addition to unblockable stacks. Reduced cooldown from 40 seconds to 20 seconds.

Do you know what those words mean? IN ADDITION TO. REDUCED COOLDOWN. Those are BUFFS. Stop whining and read the patchnotes properly before spouting nonsense.

[Nightara.1804]

5 hours ago, Asum.4960 said:

While the way they delivered their complaints was dubious, and you are technically correct - do keep in mind that Benchmarks far from tell the whole story. 

cScourge (and even pReaper on Power favouring encounters) will generally outperform cHarbinger in practice, despite it's high but  inflated Benchmark. 

Where Harbinger is too slow with transferring self-condis with Deathly Swarm before they generally are cleansed by allies outside of golem benchmarking, Scourge doesn't have that issue as much with Desert Shroud being an instant trigger for Plague Sending, being both Shroud Entry and an Attack to trigger the trait in one - which can also be precasted mid BiP animation due to being instant cast and Scourge not losing it's Utility access in Shroud. Beyond that, it has far more DPS-uptime, being fully ranged, as well. 

Power Reaper on the other hand has far more burst and cleave for the encounter's favouring that. 

So cHarbinger might sit pretty on benchmarking sites with a seemingly impressive almost 40k - but in practice it's actually not particularly good. Hence you rarely ever see it in play, with it having the ~same if not lower playrate than even Reaper, despite having two available builds as both DPS and Quickness DPS.

As for being one of the strongest Quickness Builds in terms of DPS only, that's not particularly valuable as well, when it competes with Quickness Builds that do almost the same DPS (without unrealistic Benchmark inflation on their part), but also provide things like permanent Superspeed, Perma Protection, Cleanse Spam, etc., and especially Stability - which end up increasing the Group DPS as a whole far more than any individual DPS edge that Harb might have - let alone the far more valuable group success rate. 

Playing Quick Harbinger over qScrapper, qHerald or qFB and the like is imo borderline griefing with how far behind it is in comparison. 

 

So while some of their points were poorly put, and yours are technically correct, their misgivings and conclusion weren't actually wrong.

TL;DR:

Scourge will out-dps Harbinger on most condi-favoured/mechanically complex fights, and Reaper will out-dps it on power favoured/short/heavily-phased encounters - both while being severely more survivable, and esp. for Scourge while contributing to group success rate as well (such as with condi conversion, barriers). Playing qHarb over it's alternatives is doing your group a huge disservice. 

Harb benches well, that's about it.

It's not just benches. I do agree that Harbinger is more challenging to play than Scourge or pReaper, and I do agree that pReaper is (Was? Dunno, haven't been there in a while) extremely strong in Fractals. But so is every other Power build, Fractals are simply not suited for Condi builds.

According to Wingman, good Harbingers outperform both Scourge and Reaper on most bosses (To pick a more or less random example, here's SH: https://gw2wingman.nevermindcreations.de/sh). The average Scourge tends to be better than the average Harbinger, but I'd argue that this is mostly due to build complexity.

The exceptions to that are bosses where Condi just sucks in general (But then Harbinger still outperforms Scourge in most cases), like Samarog, KC, CA, Qadim (Since lots of groups tend to ignore Resolution), and "events" with small HP bars like Trio, Statues, etc, as well as a few other bosses (Dhuum, for example, Scourge outperforms Harbinger here).

I would also take the popularity with a grain of salt. Comparing it to Firebrand pickrates is definitely not fair, since you can in theory fill all three "general" roles (Heal, Support, DPS) with Firebrand, and in at least two of them, it performs insanely well. There is a reason why Firebrand was an absolute must-have in the Fractal meta for literal years (30+% pick rate during some balance eras, according to Wingman).

Yes, it is being played less than Scrapper or Herald, but so are Chrono, Catalyst, Tempest, Specter, Willbender, Renegade, ...
Some of those builds need a buff, others don't. Being picked less than Scrapper or Firebrand is not an outright sign for being bad.

[SleepyBat.9034]

On 2/4/2023 at 3:26 AM, TrollingDemigod.3041 said:

Engineer: Where are nerfs to grenades damage? They deal far too much damage for peanuts that are barely even visible on screen. Mortar has too big AoE radius. Rest of changes are decent, although I'd restrict amount of superspeed that Scrapper can generate. Mechanist is something that shouldn't exist in PvP/WvW in the first place.

Yeah let's just gut engineer because you know, they're ruining wvw/pvp. /s

Edited February 7, 2023 by SleepyBat.9034

[Malus.2184]

49 minutes ago, Nightara.1804 said:

 Not quite sure about the attacking while moving part, but better control over the mech is definitely needed. 

The issue is that ranged mech loses a lot of damage that a melee mech never even notices since once a mech is up the target's grill it stays there and is usually within range of Mechanical Genius, whereas a ranged mech has to move around often  due to how the AI interacts with MG. A ranged mech will also stop and attack at 1200 while the Mechanist runs in close forcing them to call the mech which will probably either interrupt a Mech Command or an attack sequence, or else they're most likely getting the MG penalty. Either option reduce their damage. It's less numbers that makes a Condi Mechanist better than a Power Mech, it's mostly dfown to how the power attacks of the mech work in conjuction with the AI compared to how the condi mech attacks work in conjuction with the AI.

Giving a Hero Maker would only lessen the issue instead of removing it. And the thing about issuesis that unlesss the root cause is dealt with it'll always show itself again if only mitigated.

[SleepyBat.9034]

On 2/5/2023 at 6:20 PM, Zyphor.3480 said:

-Hammer needs a trait for reduced CD. If you say you want the spec to be more aggressive, make hammer more viable.

Not really, it just needs slightly more damage on Electro-whirl and maybe a slight cool down reduction on Rocket Charge.

On 2/5/2023 at 6:20 PM, Zyphor.3480 said:

-Expert Examination trait is useless. I have never seen someone playing condi-scrapper. And now with Mechanist, even less.

This isn't a condition trait, it's a mix of defense(weakness) / offense(Vulnerability).

On 2/5/2023 at 6:20 PM, Zyphor.3480 said:

-Sneak Gyro is useless. Why our elite skill has 60s CD and gives you only 3s of stealth? We are an utility spec. Our elite doesn't give us any support right now. At least bring back the smoke field, so we can blast is somehow.

True, Sneak Gyro is a garbage skill now.

On 2/5/2023 at 6:20 PM, Zyphor.3480 said:

-Defense Field needs a buff. If it's ground targeted, change it so it can reflect missiles.

I think it's fine.

[Sobx.1758]

9 minutes ago, Malus.2184 said:

The issue is that ranged mech loses a lot of damage that a melee mech never even notices since once a mech is up the target's grill it stays there and is usually within range of Mechanical Genius, whereas a ranged mech has to move around often  due to how the AI interacts with MG. A ranged mech will also stop and attack at 1200 while the Mechanist runs in close forcing them to call the mech which will probably either interrupt a Mech Command or an attack sequence, or else they're most likely getting the MG penalty. Either option reduce their damage. It's less numbers that makes a Condi Mechanist better than a Power Mech, it's mostly dfown to how the power attacks of the mech work in conjuction with the AI compared to how the condi mech attacks work in conjuction with the AI.

Giving a Hero Maker would only lessen the issue instead of removing it. And the thing about issuesis that unlesss the root cause is dealt with it'll always show itself again if only mitigated.

As if melee mech somehow doesn't lose dps when it needs to move? If melee mech can keep attacking and you can stay nearby to keep MG up then so can the ranged build. With the difference of ranged still being able to get the attacks in, even if the target moves while the mech is casting them. I don't exactly understand where you're coming from with this "melee doesn't care about it but ranged totally keeps losing uptime" claim?

[Asum.4960]

11 minutes ago, Nightara.1804 said:

It's not just benches. I do agree that Harbinger is more challenging to play than Scourge or pReaper, and I do agree that pReaper is (Was? Dunno, haven't been there in a while) extremely strong in Fractals. But so is every other Power build, Fractals are simply not suited for Condi builds.

According to Wingman, good Harbingers outperform both Scourge and Reaper on most bosses (To pick a more or less random example, here's SH: https://gw2wingman.nevermindcreations.de/sh). The average Scourge tends to be better than the average Harbinger, but I'd argue that this is mostly due to build complexity.

The exceptions to that are bosses where Condi just sucks in general (But then Harbinger still outperforms Scourge in most cases), like Samarog, KC, CA, Qadim (Since lots of groups tend to ignore Resolution), and "events" with small HP bars like Trio, Statues, etc, as well as a few other bosses (Dhuum, for example, Scourge outperforms Harbinger here).

I would also take the popularity with a grain of salt. Comparing it to Firebrand pickrates is definitely not fair, since you can in theory fill all three "general" roles (Heal, Support, DPS) with Firebrand, and in at least two of them, it performs insanely well. There is a reason why Firebrand was an absolute must-have in the Fractal meta for literal years (30+% pick rate during some balance eras, according to Wingman).

Yes, it is being played less than Scrapper or Herald, but so are Chrono, Catalyst, Tempest, Specter, Willbender, Renegade, ...
Some of those builds need a buff, others don't. Being picked less than Scrapper or Firebrand is not an outright sign for being bad.

Sure, but looking through these it's generally ahead by just miniscule amounts - and that's on the very top end only, and that's all that Harb contributes. 

For the absolute vast amounts of players and groups I'd recommend Scourge over Harb in pretty much every case. That it can be pushed a tiny bit ahead for the 0.01 percenters isn't a compelling selling point to me.

 

I also wasn't comparing pickrates to other classes, just within Necro specs - and as you noted for FB, which has inflated pickrates due to multiple viable builds, Harbinger should have the edge here with 2 builds (cDPS, qDPS), vs. Scourge (cDPS, and extremely niche hSC) and Reaper (pDPS). Yet it's playrate is very low - for a reason.

 

As for qHarb being picked less than qFB, qScrapper or qHerald, that's for very good reasons too. Harb has Quickness, Fury and pitiful Might. That's it. In a pinch you can maybe pull with Spectral Grasp every now and then, or Projectile destroy with CPC for a DPS loss. 

That's nothing compared to the capabilities of those alternatives. Tools like Stability, perma Superspeed, perma Prot, Cleanse spam, Reflects, Boon extension and so on are huge. 

These aren't minor differences to be brushed aside, but tools which very much so define the success rate of of most groups in most encounters.

[Nightara.1804]

1 minute ago, Sobx.1758 said:

As if melee mech somehow doesn't lose dps when it needs to move? If melee mech can keep attacking and you can stay nearby to keep MG up then so can the ranged build. With the difference of ranged still being able to get the attacks in, even if the target moves while the mech is casting them. I don't exactly understand where you're coming from with this "melee doesn't care about it but ranged totally keeps losing uptime" claim?

I think the issue is the combination of Mechanical Genius and the tendency of the ranged Mech to move to the Nirvana.

Let's say the boss moves. Mechanist follows, and now one of two things happen:

1. A melee mech follows the boss, too, stays within range of the Mechanist, keeps its Mechanical Genius, and everything is fine.
2. A ranged mech stays where it is, because kitten movement if you have range, gets out of range of Mechanical Genius, so the Mechanist has to call the Mech back (F7 or whatever that is) and send it back onto the boss to attack. Now, instead of simply staying where the Mechanist is, the Mech moves a second time to get into position (Because the ranged AI sucks), and only THEN starts attacking.

And in that comparison, ranged is obviously worse than melee.

[Nightara.1804]

4 minutes ago, Asum.4960 said:

Sure, but looking through these it's generally ahead by just miniscule amounts - and that's on the very top end only, and that's all that Harb contributes. 

For the absolute vast amounts of players and groups I'd recommend Scourge over Harb in pretty much every case. That it can be pushed a tiny bit ahead for the 0.01 percenters isn't a compelling selling point to me.

 

I also wasn't comparing pickrates to other classes, just within Necro specs - and as you noted for FB, which has inflated pickrates due to multiple viable builds, Harbinger should have the edge here with 2 builds (cDPS, qDPS), vs. Scourge (cDPS, and extremely niche hSC) and Reaper (pDPS). Yet it's playrate is very low - for a reason.

 

As for qHarb being picked less than qFB, qScrapper or qHerald, that's for very good reasons too. Harb has Quickness, Fury and pitiful Might. That's it. In a pinch you can maybe pull with Spectral Grasp every now and then, or Projectile destroy with CPC for a DPS loss. 

That's nothing compared to the capabilities of those alternatives. Tools like Stability, perma Superspeed, perma Prot, Cleanse spam, Reflects, Boon extension and so on are huge. 

These aren't minor differences to be brushed aside, but tools which very much so define the success rate of of most groups in most encounters.

Yeah, but giving Harbinger more DPS would not help with that issue in any way. What Harbinger needs is better utility (And less reliance on Elixirs so it can actually bring the pretty good utility Necro has), not more damage (Which was what the original post claimed). Harbinger DOES have a ton of damage. Admittedly only if you really know how to play it, but the damage is not the issue.

A point COULD be made about the difficulty of the class (Although I personally don't think Harbinger is difficult, the others Necro specs are just ridiculously easy to play, so Harb is "hard" in comparison and comparison only), and about the utility / lack thereof, but especially the comparisons made in the initial post (qHarb being worse in especially DPS than qScrapper, for example, which it is most definitely not - less popular yes, but not worse) are just straight up wrong.

I'm not saying Harb is perfect - as you said, it definitely lacks utility (As do some of the other support builds), but damage is the last thing the class needs.

[Asum.4960]

2 minutes ago, Nightara.1804 said:

Yeah, but giving Harbinger more DPS would not help with that issue in any way. What Harbinger needs is better utility (And less reliance on Elixirs so it can actually bring the pretty good utility Necro has), not more damage (Which was what the original post claimed). Harbinger DOES have a ton of damage. Admittedly only if you really know how to play it, but the damage is not the issue.

A point COULD be made about the difficulty of the class (Although I personally don't think Harbinger is difficult, the others Necro specs are just ridiculously easy to play, so Harb is "hard" in comparison and comparison only), and about the utility / lack thereof, but especially the comparisons made in the initial post (qHarb being worse in especially DPS than qScrapper, for example, which it is most definitely not - less popular yes, but not worse) are just straight up wrong.

I'm not saying Harb is perfect - as you said, it definitely lacks utility (As do some of the other support builds), but damage is the last thing the class needs.

Completely agree.

[Malus.2184]

1 hour ago, Sobx.1758 said:

As if melee mech somehow doesn't lose dps when it needs to move? If melee mech can keep attacking and you can stay nearby to keep MG up then so can the ranged build. With the difference of ranged still being able to get the attacks in, even if the target moves while the mech is casting them. I don't exactly understand where you're coming from with this "melee doesn't care about it but ranged totally keeps losing uptime" claim?

Every melee does that, so that point is rather moot. A melee mech, due to how the attacks and mech commands forces the mech to stand still + how the movement AI works with Mechanical Genius  means that it loses less than the ranged as it always keeps its stat bonus.

And the explicit difference is Mechanical Genius. Either through forgetting it or just how it works combined with movement and attacks in general making the mech stand still is a huge loss that if it happens at the wrong time will also trigger a state of half the stats that it should have.

[Sobx.1758]

9 minutes ago, Malus.2184 said:

Every melee does that, so that point is rather moot.

Exactly, that's the point. If ranged loses attacks then so does melee, so not sure why you are trying to somehow claim one does and the other doesn't.

9 minutes ago, Malus.2184 said:

A melee mech, due to how the attacks and mech commands forces the mech to stand still + how the movement AI works with Mechanical Genius  means that it loses less than the ranged as it always keeps its stat bonus.

And the explicit difference is Mechanical Genius. Either through forgetting it or just how it works combined with movement and attacks in general making the mech stand still is a huge loss that if it happens at the wrong time will also trigger a state of half the stats that it should have.

Are you really complaining about forgetting to use the follow/attack buttons here? Seems like it's on you, not on the passive or mech being set to ranged. At this point, when you're moving longer distance, you move the mech with you, that's all. It still loses as much as melee.

Edited February 7, 2023 by Sobx.1758

[SleepyBat.9034]

On 2/6/2023 at 5:10 AM, bluberblasen.9684 said:

Harbinger is one of the over tuned roaming classes in WvW.

Not wrong, the question is which parts do you nerf so you don't kill other necro specs.

[Shmun.4152]

Changes are so unbalanced. Some classes receive lots of tuning where others get next to nothing. It seems the same classes as in the previous balance patch are favoured by the game designers. Such an emphasis on personal preference wouldn't be good for any game.

[FelsPinguin.5902]

With the Changes to Thief tricks. Has lesser haste ( https://wiki.guildwars2.com/wiki/Lesser_Haste#WvW,PvP ) from burst of agility been forgotten in the cooldown reduction?

[intomatar.4539]

Everyone is discussing the injustice of the update, and only we are the revenants once again sitting and letting out a misty tear, we are no strangers. We have long understood that we should not wait for justice.

[Kodama.6453]

24 minutes ago, FelsPinguin.5902 said:

With the Changes to Thief tricks. Has lesser haste ( https://wiki.guildwars2.com/wiki/Lesser_Haste#WvW,PvP ) from burst of agility been forgotten in the cooldown reduction?

Now you scare me.

Anet, if you ever remove the cooldown reduction from HGH, please remember to reduce the cooldowns of the elixir based traits (Hidden Flask, Transmute, Emergency Elixir)!