Make participation bots actually play the game

[coro.3176]

Suggestion: While in spawn safe area, players' participation decays as if it hadn't been refreshed.

I see so, so many players just sitting in spawn only leaving once per 10 minutes to go flip a camp or sentry to refresh their participation. This isn't playing WvW, and they shouldn't be rewarded for this. If they want to afk, at least make them stand somewhere potentially vulnerable like a tower or keep.

Edited February 5, 2023 by coro.3176

[Chichimec.9364]

Why are you spending enough time at spawn to know what other players are doing every ten minutes and why does it bother you what they do? I'm not asking those questions to be obnoxious but because I really am curious.

I play with a squad that runs two hours a day. The only times we are in spawn are when we are just getting started, are switching maps, or we need to regroup after getting wiped. We generally just put out food and banners at spawn as needed, then take off again. I don't even notice who else is there, let alone what they might be doing every ten minutes.

[coro.3176]

3 minutes ago, Chichimec.9364 said:

Why are you spending enough time at spawn to know what other players are doing every ten minutes and why does it bother you what they do? I'm not asking those questions to be obnoxious but because I really am curious.

• I roam the map and am sad that it is mostly empty.
• I wonder, "where are all the enemy players?"
• When I waypoint back to spawn, I notice there are players afk-running into walls collecting pips
• *this is the important step* I use my keen powers of inductive reasoning to conclude that on other teams the players that I could be fighting, are in fact running into walls like my teammates

This bothers me because these are the opponents I could be fighting. We could be having tense pee vee pee action testing our skills against each other.

[Chichimec.9364]

Ah, thanks for explaining. That does make sense. Don't know if this will help or not but it seems to me the WvW population varies by both time of day and server match up. An individual player can't do anything about their match up except wait it out till the next reset. If they can though, a person might jump into WvW at different times of day, looking for the busier times.

[Chichimec.9364]

3 hours ago, coro.3176 said:

If they want to afk, at least make them stand somewhere potentially vulnerable like a tower or keep.

 

1 hour ago, coro.3176 said:

We could be having tense pee vee pee action testing our skills against each other.

On further thought, those two comments seem antithetical. You asked Anet to put afk players where you can kill them. That doesn't sound like "tense pee vee pee action" to me. Just saying...

[coro.3176]

Well, ideally they'd wake up when attacked, but alas. I can't *force* people to press their buttons. Failing that, they can at least be a small bag reward for capping that objective.

[Solvar.7953]

Defining vulnerable would be problematic.  In most cases, how dangerous would it be for these AFK people to be standing in a keep?  Sure, they flip now and again, but if we presume they are not totally AFK but check in now and again, they would notice that, go back to WP, and then go somewhere else.

But more likely, these players would just finding good hidings spots on maps were most players never go.

Changing this would also hurt players who are just taking a few minutes to figure out what to do (where is the battle, where can I go that is interesting, do I need to change maps, etc), or even just doing things like selling junk at merchants or otherwise managing their inventory.

 

[Morden Kain.3489]

19 hours ago, Chichimec.9364 said:

Why are you spending enough time at spawn to know what other players are doing every ten minutes and why does it bother you what they do? I'm not asking those questions to be obnoxious but because I really am curious.

There are some people that actually state that they are going back to waiting in spawn (have seen 1 player do this on an empty map).

15 hours ago, Solvar.7953 said:

But more likely, these players would just finding good hidings spots on maps were most players never go.

Hmmm... Jumping puzzle is a good place to hide... no one goes in those any more (not talking about Obsidian Sanctum).

[neven.3785]

While guilty of running into a wall sometimes as I alt tab, go to the washroom, or yell at my kids, I agree participation timer should start ticking down once you hit spawn.   You have plenty of time to leave and kill something (or defend/repair) even when it starts to tick down before you lose a tier.   This doesn't seem punishing to people who actively play as they will constantly be refreshing their participation, but for the behaviour described by the OP, it would make a small impact on skirmish reward progression. And maybe entice them to be a bit more active.  Invuln spots need a drawback.

 

People seem to forget that on a lot of servers these folks are taking up queue slots and preventing others who want to play from joining the map.

[Ariurotl.3718]

Yeah no, requiring people to do more than the bare minimum to get their Gifts of Battle and leave is not going to fly.

[neven.3785]

Those people don't need their gifts of battle, they want them.  They should never be factored in to balancing wvw participation if they don't want to participate.  If they hate wvw so much they can go through the various sources to buy it from others for gold/mystic coins/etc.  Nothing is truly forcing them in the game mode except themselves.

[Ariurotl.3718]

22 minutes ago, neven.3785 said:

If they hate wvw so much they can go through the various sources to buy it from others for gold/mystic coins/etc.

Wait, what? You can buy Gifts of Battle? Is that a new thing? (edit: Nah, still only through the reward track, I officially don't know what you're talking about then!)

 

Either way, I thought that WvW folk would be happy with the PvE "scrubs" getting what they want and leaving as soon as humanly possible. Not sure what anyone would gain from forcing them to suffer more. It's not like they're even a good thing for WvW since they don't want to be there any longer than is entirely necessary and more often than not they're going to WvW with their open world builds and lack of skill.

Edited February 7, 2023 by Ariurotl.3718

[Morden Kain.3489]

17 hours ago, Ariurotl.3718 said:

Either way, I thought that WvW folk would be happy with the PvE "scrubs" getting what they want and leaving as soon as humanly possible.

I came into WvW as a PvE "scrub" for world map completion back in 2012 (yeah WvW was required for it back then)... have yet to leave WvW 😁.

17 hours ago, neven.3785 said:

If they hate wvw so much they can go through the various sources to buy it from others for gold/mystic coins/etc

Great!  Where can I go to sell my 11 Gifts of Battle taking up space in my storage??  I no longer need them, and if I need another I will just redo the track (again)!

[lotus.5672]

17 hours ago, Ariurotl.3718 said:

Wait, what? You can buy Gifts of Battle? Is that a new thing? (edit: Nah, still only through the reward track, I officially don't know what you're talking about then!)

 

Either way, I thought that WvW folk would be happy with the PvE "scrubs" getting what they want and leaving as soon as humanly possible. Not sure what anyone would gain from forcing them to suffer more. It's not like they're even a good thing for WvW since they don't want to be there any longer than is entirely necessary and more often than not they're going to WvW with their open world builds and lack of skill.

 

22 minutes ago, Morden Kain.3489 said:

I came into WvW as a PvE "scrub" for world map completion back in 2012 (yeah WvW was required for it back then)... have yet to leave WvW 😁.

Great!  Where can I go to sell my 11 Gifts of Battle taking up space in my storage??  I no longer need them, and if I need another I will just redo the track (again)!

One of the many trading discords

[Ronin.4501]

17 hours ago, Ariurotl.3718 said:

Wait, what? You can buy Gifts of Battle? Is that a new thing? (edit: Nah, still only through the reward track, I officially don't know what you're talking about then!)

 

Either way, I thought that WvW folk would be happy with the PvE "scrubs" getting what they want and leaving as soon as humanly possible. Not sure what anyone would gain from forcing them to suffer more. It's not like they're even a good thing for WvW since they don't want to be there any longer than is entirely necessary and more often than not they're going to WvW with their open world builds and lack of skill.

 

18 hours ago, neven.3785 said:

People seem to forget that on a lot of servers these folks are taking up queue slots and preventing others who want to play from joining the map.

The problem isn't so much the PvE players joining in WvW for Gifts of Battle, the problem is the PvE players who are out in WvW solely to get their legendary armor because, despite the lengthy time-gate, it's much easier to acquire than either the PvE Raid or SPvP versions. And as neven said, these players are now taking up queue slots whilst not actively participating in the game mode; they simply sit in spawn on a given map waiting for the nearest camp to flip so they can go flip it back and earn their 10 minutes of participation. But when you've got an enemy server with a full map queue of players out on the map, your server is hamstrung if you've got a dozen of these participation bots just sitting in spawn occupying space in the queue. And for every player like Morden Kain who joined for PvE reasons and fell in love with the game mode, you've got many more who will repeatedly tell you how much they hate WvW and are only here for their legendary gear.

[TheGrimm.5624]

On 2/5/2023 at 2:19 PM, coro.3176 said:

Suggestion: While in spawn safe area, players' participation decays as if it hadn't been refreshed.

I see so, so many players just sitting in spawn only leaving once per 10 minutes to go flip a camp or sentry to refresh their participation. This isn't playing WvW, and they shouldn't be rewarded for this. If they want to afk, at least make them stand somewhere potentially vulnerable like a tower or keep.

How many people on your server do you see doing this? Any context to this statement? Requests like this is how we end up with changes people really weren't looking for. For example you just grouped up people stepping away to let their dogs out or to grab a glass of water let alone hundred of other real reason versus people being so bored that they are good with spending hours and hours of doing nothing while renewing their participation every few minutes. Sure some might, but what is that, 1-3% of the player base.

Now to be fair, let me go another route. If this is such a major issue instead of penalizing everyone that happens to go to spawn to do something legit. Instead have spawn act like a player isn't in WvW, for example treat them the same as if they were in Armistice Bastion (https://wiki.guildwars2.com/wiki/Armistice_Bastion) or LA. That would require them to then be in an attackable area even if that was just out in a keep or tower but wouldn't just abuse the entire player base while stepping away while in spawn which is its actual purpose. 

[Biermeister.4678]

Gee maybe Anet could put Crafting Stations in spawn do the wall runner's would have something to do 😁

[TheGrimm.5624]

42 minutes ago, Biermeister.4678 said:

Gee maybe Anet could put Crafting Stations in spawn do the wall runner's would have something to do 😁

lol. Mind you it does suck when you run out of a food and utility and need to buy some since you don't want to exit WvW to get some more and you are too stubborn to just use the provisoner. 🙂

[coro.3176]

1 hour ago, TheGrimm.5624 said:

How many people on your server do you see doing this? Any context to this statement? Requests like this is how we end up with changes people really weren't looking for. For example you just grouped up people stepping away to let their dogs out or to grab a glass of water let alone hundred of other real reason versus people being so bored that they are good with spending hours and hours of doing nothing while renewing their participation every few minutes. Sure some might, but what is that, 1-3% of the player base.

maybe 5-8 on any given map (especially BLs)? You always see them run out to flip spawn camp for participation and then immediately waypoint to go park themselves afk for 10 minutes again.

The reason I think decaying participation is ideal is that it doesn't punish players much for quick breaks, but would reduce their participation to 0 over a long enough time if they were constantly afk-ing there. 

Edited February 7, 2023 by coro.3176

[Brandon Uzumaki.1524]

I would prefer the whole spawn area were you are invulnerable to pause all progress, you don't lose participation, but you also don't get any rewards (like in Edge of the Mists), so people that need to afk for a bit, or mess with the vendors, don't get penalized for doing so.

[Xenesis.6389]

11 minutes ago, Brandon Uzumaki.1524 said:

I would prefer the whole spawn area were you are invulnerable to pause all progress, you don't lose participation, but you also don't get any rewards (like in Edge of the Mists), so people that need to afk for a bit, or mess with the vendors, don't get penalized for doing so.

I'd rather people get off wvw maps if they don't want to lose progress.

 

I feel kinda sad for people that feel the need to micromanage their participation for digital rewards.

[Graymatter.4723]

On 2/5/2023 at 1:22 PM, coro.3176 said:

• I notice there are players afk-running into walls collecting pips

Those players are often spies from enemy teams watching for commanders. Other times it's people running to the restroom, etc. If someone is flipping camps then they normally run to the next camp straight away and wait for RI to end.

Edited February 7, 2023 by Graymatter.4723

[TheGrimm.5624]

On 2/7/2023 at 5:15 PM, coro.3176 said:

maybe 5-8 on any given map (especially BLs)? You always see them run out to flip spawn camp for participation and then immediately waypoint to go park themselves afk for 10 minutes again.

The reason I think decaying participation is ideal is that it doesn't punish players much for quick breaks, but would reduce their participation to 0 over a long enough time if they were constantly afk-ing there. 

Again I think you punish legit players versus just those you see as trying to AFK farm. So if a map is lets say 70 players you punish everyone for 7-10% you think are trying to game the system? At best those players that are of concern will just go out and AFK in a keep and everyone else will be penalized while they grab a glass of water. Not sure that works out. Let's look for another option. 

[idpersona.3810]

On 2/7/2023 at 11:14 AM, Ronin.4501 said:

 

The problem isn't so much the PvE players joining in WvW for Gifts of Battle, the problem is the PvE players who are out in WvW solely to get their legendary armor because, despite the lengthy time-gate, it's much easier to acquire than either the PvE Raid or SPvP versions. And as neven said, these players are now taking up queue slots whilst not actively participating in the game mode; they simply sit in spawn on a given map waiting for the nearest camp to flip so they can go flip it back and earn their 10 minutes of participation. But when you've got an enemy server with a full map queue of players out on the map, your server is hamstrung if you've got a dozen of these participation bots just sitting in spawn occupying space in the queue. And for every player like Morden Kain who joined for PvE reasons and fell in love with the game mode, you've got many more who will repeatedly tell you how much they hate WvW and are only here for their legendary gear.

And yet forum goers actively argue against the idea of OW legendary armor, which would be a possible solution to this problem. There are various reasons why people don't raid, and so if WvW is the most obviously alternative, players are going to pursue it.

 

On 2/7/2023 at 3:06 PM, Brandon Uzumaki.1524 said:

I would prefer the whole spawn area were you are invulnerable to pause all progress, you don't lose participation, but you also don't get any rewards (like in Edge of the Mists), so people that need to afk for a bit, or mess with the vendors, don't get penalized for doing so.

I wouldn't mind seeing progress paused. No loss of participation. No rewards. We all have rl stuff pop up (bathroom/food breaks, kids, pets, etc.) and there should be an easy way to take care of those things without upsetting other players.

On 2/7/2023 at 3:20 PM, Xenesis.6389 said:

I'd rather people get off wvw maps if they don't want to lose progress.

Don't agree. Especially if there was a queue to get on the map, I'm not going to leave it just to deal with a RL issue for 5 minutes and then have to wait 15 more to continue playing. That (to me) is a ridiculous ask. The above suggestion of having a neutral area (no reward/no participation) is a better solution I think.

[Xenesis.6389]

12 minutes ago, idpersona.3810 said:

Don't agree. Especially if there was a queue to get on the map, I'm not going to leave it just to deal with a RL issue for 5 minutes and then have to wait 15 more to continue playing. That (to me) is a ridiculous ask. The above suggestion of having a neutral area (no reward/no participation) is a better solution I think.

And that is exactly why it would be a bad idea, you would encourage even more people to just afk long term on the map instead of leaving because of the threat of losing participation. We already have people coming to the forums complaining about people afking running in spawn, now you give them a free pass, in prime time even more people would take advantage of this.

 

That's why there's a maximum 10min countdown and another 15mins to drain the bar, it's a cushion period for you to do deal with  stuff like your 5min RL issue. If you need to be gone for longer than 10-15+mins then you should get off the map to save your bar. You want an area to absolutely save your participation, it's called everywhere else but wvw maps.