[WvW] R.I.P. Reaper

[SleepyBat.9034]

Actual F tier spec in wvw.

[Arianth Moonlight.6453]

really?

[Obtena.7952]

F tier spec for F tier players

Edited February 12, 2023 by Obtena.7952

[Greviathan.6107]

I assume you are referring mainly to roaming.
I think F-Tier is an exaggeration, but it is definitely not among the best specs, the reaper was perfectly average before the arrival of EoD specs and has now indirectly fallen below as it cannot keep up very well. To say, the reaper has always had a lot of counters, now it's just accentuated.

One of the problems is that some specs excel at almost everything, while the reaper doesn't.
Furthermore, Reaper's animations are clear and easy to read (and the shroud mechanic makes it even more readable).
That would be perfectly ok if all classes were like this.
However, many classes/specs can do heavy damage without warning (such as stealth attacks or teleport attacks), but that's not all.
 
IMO what the reaper needs is better mobility like any melee oriented spec and better/more versatile sustain. I even dare to say a short active defense.

[Dadnir.5038]

Reaper have never been a great roamer.

I'm not saying it was/is impossible to roam with it but, unless you know very well what you do or you face players that don't know how to react, reaper just isn't designed in a way that favor roaming.

As for large scale fights where reaper is designed to shine, the truth is that the "meta" is cruel. What feel "needed" will be favored over what's superflous. Reaper might bring it's share of aoe damage and CC but ultimately that's all it bring while many other specs provide that much and beyond.

[Jobber.6348]

I love posts that just drop a statement, doesn't elaborate, and that's all there is to it. 

But yea Reaper in WvW has its place, and has its weak points. 

Reaper roaming = you are gonna be eaten up by literally every single player who can hit you from further than 300 range. Reaper is exceptionally bad vs ranged opponents, that's a fact that will never change. 

Reaper zerging = you are a godly damage source because now you have support and meat shields around you which supports your cleaving and damage dealing.

 

Reaper also has very strong durability when fighting small scale skirmishes because just having people on your side taking part and putting pressure on the enemy allows you to breathe easily and just destroy with your Shroud. And if you do get focused, you are durable enough that your own allies can crush the enemy while they burn all their skills on you. 

[Esufer.8762]

Power reaper is a straight up banger of a roamer. It takes a bit of practice before you see results but the reward is really good if you're willing to play with confidence and know when to make risky plays.

I feel like I must be playing a different class when I read these forums sometimes.

Give me your confused reacts.

[stormemperor.3745]

Reaper is good at getting reaped.

[sdaugherty.1984]

Love the Necro class and while in WvW Zergs I play Scourge for boon removals and barrier help for my team. It does feel like my damage with Scourge is not that much help now as Wells have been nerfed.                                                                                                               In small scale fights I always play Reaper. This past year with everchanging balances to the game I have noticed a change in how I need to play Reaper. The aggressive playstyle I once enjoyed with Reaper will get you killed in a hurry as it is easier and easier for the enemy to focus you. It is now best to hold back for opportunities of convenience. (not as fun!) I run greatsword and staff to take advantage of the staff's 1200 range to poke at enemies, (wish it was 1400!) then pounce with greatsword for your burst melee damage.  Easier said than done. You must be quick to enter shroud at times for purely defensive purposes or be prepared to be bounced around like a ping pong ball and melted if focused. Positioning can be hard and don't get left behind.  Considered a selfish build by some in WvW the reaper has limited boon removal and not much else to offer teammates. The less aggressive playstyle required to survive in WvW has taken the shine from the class for me. You are not going to catch anyone, and you can't run. To make my toon less readable I have changed my colors from my beloved green and black. This way players can't single me out as easily for a lock down and kill.  Yes there are a few escapes Worm and Spectral Walk, but these abilities can weaken your damage output. A few tweaks to the class can make it fun again, like buffs to staff for WvW? I am sure the community has a list.  Sorry for jumping around in this post. I must be venting....

[Dr Meta.3158]

Any build/class that lacks mobility is not going to do well at roaming. Just play Harbinger if you want to stick to necromancer or otherwise play ranger, engineer, thief, elementalist, or revenant classes of you want to roam. Mirage and spellbreaker too if you're good.

[Arianth Moonlight.6453]

ok, almost 4 years ago, I was able to kill any other class on 1v1 scenarios, I was even able to kill up to 3 players with a little NPC support. At the end, even thieves and mesmers were easy prey and still, roaming was never a viable option.

then I left the game for 3 years and upon returning almost 1 year ago, I realize they butchered Reaper beyond recognition (and boosted every other class). Now, I 'm only able to kill noobs and Necros (all specs) and the idea of roaming with Reaper is just idiotic.

still, just as before I left, Reaper is still S tier on Zerg vs Zerg if you know how to pay it.

[stormemperor.3745]

Necro lacks boons, boon removals and condition to boons. Every other spec pukes boons like crazy while turning conditions to boons. They don't need to corrupt/remove boons since it doesn't matter. 

 

They need to turn boon corrupt/removal traits to 300 aoe 3 sec interval. You can't even stay in shroud more than 5-10 seconds in pvp anyway. You can simply corrupt their quick to slow and they will leave shroud on their own 😂 After reapers lose their stab they are ducked with fear, enjoy getting ducked for playing reaper 😂 

[misterman.1530]

I love coming across a roaming reaper - when I'm on my Core Necro or Condi Harb. My absolute favorite bag is a Reaper Minion Mancer when I'm on my Core. Nom nom. 

Reaper in zergs can put up good numbers, but roamers they are not.

[KrHome.1920]

Celestial speed rune reaper variants are top tier solo and smallscale builds. While there have been only two or three viable builds before the latest patch, now there are a dozen.

The spectral armor cooldown of 30 seconds is fantastic. That cooldown is so low, that you can cast it for every shroud which makes you basically invulnerable for the first 6 seconds in shroud.

The shout heal on celestial heals for 6.6k every 16 !!! seconds and generales a lot of life force. The signet heal has been great anyway.

Death Magic + Rise! is sick in terms of condi removal. DM + SR + celestial speed rune Reaper facerolls that ugly harbinger meta roaming build. It can't do sh** to you. Just stunbreak its shroud5 skill, stick to the harbinger and mash buttons.

Spite + curses + reaper + NCSY destroys ele bunkers that no other roaming build can kill. That corrupt build has seen serious buffs due to the buffs to shouts and warhorn (less cooldown for the speed rune swiftness application you need as you don't have speed of shadows in that build)

You can't kill thieves but neither can they kill you as you can just run away from them and they need all their tools to catch up which will turn out badly for them, if you suddenly start to fight them after they burned their initiative and shadowstep to chase you.

As long as speed rune exists in its current form, the spec is in a great spot.

I don't know what trash builds you all play, but saying reaper is bad in roaming is hilarious. 

Edited February 20, 2023 by KrHome.1920

[WillaSucca.9471]

I am actually playing somewhat like this right now!

Curses-spite-reaper and moved to use all shouts atm, excluding rise atm.

Speed runes too.

This is my first time theorycrafting myself and it has been awesome, since i was expecting gettin totally REKT, but oh no. Making decent progress in wvw, and most importantly, having a blast!

Also i use scepter+warhorn and axe+focus for the boonrips on both sets and single target decimation, and kitten i hit hard!

Been swappin in some berserker and/or assas to get higher crit and more dmg,  sure my survivability suffers, but its so kitten fun being that kind of powerhouse!

Maybe its bcuz ppl are not expecting  this kind of reaper or something,  but kitten i love the short cd shouts!

Also just made me some precision food to get that crit higher, im able to get it around 60%+ and keep swapping spite with soul reaping to reach cap, but have not settled yet to either.

 

Now i know this is far from optimal, but its just my personal fun time and im enjoying myself alot atm!

Gonna get enuff tickets to craft my 3rd leggy armor piece tonight propably 🙂 yey!

[Seuchenherbst.2746]

10 hours ago, KrHome.1920 said:

As long as speed rune exists in its current form, the spec is in a great spot.

I don't know what trash builds you all play, but saying reaper is bad in roaming is hilarious. 

one of those moments when you can't tell if a post is supposed to be satire or not.

"hey guys! tf are you complaining about? we have 1 (one!) build that kinda sorta works (sometimes at least).*

like, why do you care that you can't use the other 99.9% of runes in the game withouth being deleted on the spot lol"

 

Truly one for the sages, mate.

 

*except when you're facing thief, or really any other class with mobility or ranged attacks, or are engaged by more than 1 enemy

[DEATHsCLAW.1978]

12 hours ago, KrHome.1920 said:

Celestial speed rune reaper variants are top tier solo and smallscale builds. While there have been only two or three viable builds before the latest patch, now there are a dozen.

The spectral armor cooldown of 30 seconds is fantastic. That cooldown is so low, that you can cast it for every shroud which makes you basically invulnerable for the first 6 seconds in shroud.

The shout heal on celestial heals for 6.6k every 16 !!! seconds and generales a lot of life force. The signet heal has been great anyway.

Death Magic + Rise! is sick in terms of condi removal. DM + SR + celestial speed rune Reaper facerolls that ugly harbinger meta roaming build. It can't do sh** to you. Just stunbreak its shroud5 skill, stick to the harbinger and mash buttons.

Spite + curses + reaper + NCSY destroys ele bunkers that no other roaming build can kill. That corrupt build has seen serious buffs due to the buffs to shouts and warhorn (less cooldown for the speed rune swiftness application you need as you don't have speed of shadows in that build)

You can't kill thieves but neither can they kill you as you can just run away from them and they need all their tools to catch up which will turn out badly for them, if you suddenly start to fight them after they burned their initiative and shadowstep to chase you.

As long as speed rune exists in its current form, the spec is in a great spot.

I don't know what trash builds you all play, but saying reaper is bad in roaming is hilarious. 

since you talk wvw:

reaper is not great for solo roaming, speed rune make it barely viable. It is good at noob stomping but vs. a semi competitive duelist it gets reckd. on top reaper does not have real disengange potential nor the ability to survive outnumbered situations. I think every other class has a better solo roaming build than reaper. 

 

correct me if I'm wrong but the only place reaper can shine is smallscale wvw in coordinated groups. it for sure doesn't in pve, pvp and wvw roaming, and as far as I know not in big zerk fights either. it's in a very sad state tbh

[Strider.7849]

On 2/20/2023 at 1:11 PM, DEATHsCLAW.1978 said:

since you talk wvw:

reaper is not great for solo roaming, speed rune make it barely viable. It is good at noob stomping but vs. a semi competitive duelist it gets reckd. on top reaper does not have real disengange potential nor the ability to survive outnumbered situations. I think every other class has a better solo roaming build than reaper. 

 

correct me if I'm wrong but the only place reaper can shine is smallscale wvw in coordinated groups. it for sure doesn't in pve, pvp and wvw roaming, and as far as I know not in big zerk fights either. it's in a very sad state tbh

You have to learn how to "juke". Use spectral walk in every roaming build at the minimum. If you need even more, take worm too. You need to be mindful of terrain,  you don't want big open spaces of flatland; I.e. slightly east of Bay on alpine borderlands. Built correctly, you are an absolute beast underwater too, so you can mix porting up and down ledges, behind cliffs and obstacles, and use water skills to near 1 shot people. Reaper also has good underwater mobility with Trident + reaper shroud 2.

 

@KrHome.1920's post was nearly spot on. I've been using a similar build the past year+ and absolutely destroying with it. My last major fight I won was 2v8 with more trickling as we kept killing them inside air keep. Until we eventually wiped.

 

Reaper's counter though is specific soulbeast builds, deadeye, power specter, and d/p daredevil (they make one mistake they can near instant die though) if you don't make them waste initiative by chasing you. 

 

I know it's hard to imagine these things except outside of just saying "trust me", unless you would be up for some duels which i know would change your mind (yes im a competitive duelist as per your post). The strongest builds you won't find posted on sites like metabattle or guildjen by the way, these are theory crafted ones. 

[Nimon.7840]

On 2/20/2023 at 9:47 AM, KrHome.1920 said:

Celestial speed rune reaper variants are top tier solo and smallscale builds. While there have been only two or three viable builds before the latest patch, now there are a dozen.

The spectral armor cooldown of 30 seconds is fantastic. That cooldown is so low, that you can cast it for every shroud which makes you basically invulnerable for the first 6 seconds in shroud.

The shout heal on celestial heals for 6.6k every 16 !!! seconds and generales a lot of life force. The signet heal has been great anyway.

Death Magic + Rise! is sick in terms of condi removal. DM + SR + celestial speed rune Reaper facerolls that ugly harbinger meta roaming build. It can't do sh** to you. Just stunbreak its shroud5 skill, stick to the harbinger and mash buttons.

Spite + curses + reaper + NCSY destroys ele bunkers that no other roaming build can kill. That corrupt build has seen serious buffs due to the buffs to shouts and warhorn (less cooldown for the speed rune swiftness application you need as you don't have speed of shadows in that build)

You can't kill thieves but neither can they kill you as you can just run away from them and they need all their tools to catch up which will turn out badly for them, if you suddenly start to fight them after they burned their initiative and shadowstep to chase you.

As long as speed rune exists in its current form, the spec is in a great spot.

I don't know what trash builds you all play, but saying reaper is bad in roaming is hilarious. 

And now we do have a really big problem.

In my opinion, a build that has to permanently change weapons and traits and utility skills is not a good roaming build.

Sometimes you can't decide, whether you want to fight or not.

What you describe is multiple builds and not one.

Or is there some kind of bug, that lets me use spite/curses/deathmagic/soulreaping/reaper at the same time?

I didn't test cele reaper with the most recent patch, but imo there's so many useless stats on cele.

 

If you really run full cele with speedrunes, you are at 1639 power with 35% critchance. 192% critdamage, 42% boon and condi duration, 27k hp  and every other stat is at 639.

That doesn't sound like a good build to me. Most likely that's leaning towards condi. But there's other specs and classes, that make way better use of celestial stats than reaper.

 

Do you mind sharing the exact trait choices/builds?

 

[Seuchenherbst.2746]

9 hours ago, Strider.7849 said:

You have to learn how to "juke". Use spectral walk in every roaming build at the minimum. If you need even more, take worm too. You need to be mindful of terrain,  you don't want big open spaces of flatland; I.e. slightly east of Bay on alpine borderlands. Built correctly, you are an absolute beast underwater too, so you can mix porting up and down ledges, behind cliffs and obstacles, and use water skills to near 1 shot people. Reaper also has good underwater mobility with Trident + reaper shroud 2.

fascinating. you really think anybody who roams on necro for more than 1 hour didn't figure out to use the only 2 mobility skills necro has?

every "necro is actually GOOD for roaming!" post reads the same way:

first, a patronizing claim of feasability, followed by a laundry list of admitted restrictions (which already refutes the claimed feasability) and, to top off, a completely unrealistic claim of victories.

anybody who actually seeks out difficult roaming situations (instead of avoiding them) will know that necro really is NOT suited for roaming. any victory you get out of it will be DESPITE the class you are playing, not because of it. i guess there is a certain satisfaction in that, though.

[Strider.7849]

48 minutes ago, Seuchenherbst.2746 said:

fascinating. you really think anybody who roams on necro for more than 1 hour didn't figure out to use the only 2 mobility skills necro has?

every "necro is actually GOOD for roaming!" post reads the same way:

first, a patronizing claim of feasability, followed by a laundry list of admitted restrictions (which already refutes the claimed feasability) and, to top off, a completely unrealistic claim of victories.

anybody who actually seeks out difficult roaming situations (instead of avoiding them) will know that necro really is NOT suited for roaming. any victory you get out of it will be DESPITE the class you are playing, not because of it. i guess there is a certain satisfaction in that, though.

I didn't say every necro was good for roaming. I'm not trying to be patronizing anywhere in my response, if anything I was trying to help Deathclaw. How you got all that negativity from what I wrote I have no idea, but I genuinely enjoy my reaper - both in playstyle and in theme and it has been working very well for me. Pointing out what reaper struggles against (even with a strong build) I think is important, especially since he said it has *no* disengage potential. 

[Seuchenherbst.2746]

2 hours ago, Strider.7849 said:

I didn't say every necro was good for roaming. I'm not trying to be patronizing anywhere in my response, if anything I was trying to help Deathclaw. How you got all that negativity from what I wrote I have no idea, but I genuinely enjoy my reaper - both in playstyle and in theme and it has been working very well for me. Pointing out what reaper struggles against (even with a strong build) I think is important, especially since he said it has *no* disengage potential. 

the thing is, reaper (and necro in general) is objectively bad for roaming. I was about to write down a list of reasons, but I think those have been given so often now you could just look up old threads.

so why does it bother me when people go on this forum and write stuff like "reaper is epic roaming class"?

because the devs just recently actually said "necro is in a good place right now". now, I don't know where tf they got that idea from, but maybe from posts like yours.

[sdaugherty.1984]

2 hours ago, Seuchenherbst.2746 said:

so why does it bother me when people go on this forum and write stuff like "reaper is epic roaming class"?

 Yes, It is disheartening when you read post like that, and I wonder a few things... Are they paying the current game? Are they trolling? Do they have a secret build that works for them? Are they some God like player with skills to spare?

All I know is that for an average player like me that tries hard (in WvW) you can be easily disappointed because of a few flaws of the class. The Reaper is the selfish spec that needs to hit hard to pull it's weight, and hopefully live through it. With Anet now balancing competitive modes separately you would think a fix for Reaper would not be that hard.

[Dr Meta.3158]

There's a big difference between players like hollts and your average reaper player. I think that's where the disparity comes in. Its also very obvious with thief, warrior, engineer, and elementalist. All difficult to play and leaving a massive gap between players of various skill levels with the majority trending towards the bottom. Usually these skilled players aren't seen often so when they do speak up or they are mentioned, the disbelief should be expected.

I think pvp-wise, reaper is in a good place. Even started roaming again after like 3 years and had really good results.

Pve-wise... well solo feels great, open world bosses and such is good, fractals is ok, strikes... eh, raids... oof.

[Seuchenherbst.2746]

It is NOT about skill! Reaper (and necro in general) has several intrinsic flaws which make it worse at roaming than any other class.

Does that mean a Reaper can't solo 3v1 against some bad (brain afk) players? No, ofc that works. But that is not what anybody is talking about, since you could do 1vX against bad players with any other class. That is not the point. The point is that once a Reaper faces a player (or God forbin: multiple players) of comparable skill, more often than not he is going to have a bad time.