You nerf insignificant small things like Dragon's tooth....but Distortion spam is untouched

[Arheundel.6451]

You go on a stream and talk about counterplay and all....but your patch misses the very problematic thing most of all :  distortion into block into stealth...rinse and repeat...the actual issue you should resolve, but the priority is to please the criers ok...I get it, same anet as usual.....unless it's cried on the forums you most likely do nothing! Brilliant!

[Waffles.5632]

I think both things can be true. Cata being a problem, while distortion also being a problem, or rather, specifically speaking, the case of giving so much "free" distortion to Virtuoso's, because classical mesmer does not have a "free" distortion.

By that I mean, classical mesmer ( even mirage/chrono ) using their f4 distortion need to both be in combat and have 3 clones already out to get maximum benefit. Mesmers get 1 sec distortion for every clone, 4 clones max, Mesmer itself counts as clone.

Clones do not last long in pvp at all, 3-8secs at best depending on the team fight size (smaller skirmishes = clones stay up longer)

If they use distortion with no clones, they only get one second out of it, not four, thus one of the counterplays to classical Mesmer is 1-2 people rush down and force out a sacrificed distortion.

Another counterplay is to spam AOE so the instant their clones come up, they die, thus denying the Mesmer access to one of it's resources. A Mesmer without clones is no Mesmer at all.

 

However...

 

You simply can't do this with Virtu because they get can cast distortion pretty much whenever. They don't rely on clones, they rely on an ammo system of blades, so you have to assume at initial engagement a Virtu will have all of it's blades available to them, so you can't rushdown otherwise you're met with a max duration distortion, making you easy to counter now.

(You can ofc see the number of blades on their head, but tbh that's just more visual noise in the sea of visual noise that is pvp. You can't effectively and immediately tell how many blades, so it's just always safer to assume max and play around that.)

 

You can't spam AOE because there are no clones to AOE.

The Virtu also doesn't have to be in combat to start it's combos, and it is both ranged and has access to blinks. The Tri-fecta of terrible pvp ideas.

 

 

This allows the Virtu to effectively have the best openings of any class in GW2 IMO. This is what people feel the most frustration out of. You simply can't do anything outside of just trying to react to what the Virtu does, and once it does something, then you have small chances in between to nail them down. Virtu is very low effort atm, because the invuls last so long.

 

 

 

So in short, there really isn't any actual counterplay against a Virtu atm, outside of pouncing hard when they slip up. You have to really pay attention to and react to them. Also no one likes being forced to wait 5+ secs, that is just way too long in pvp lmfao. In team fights this is a nightmare and pretty much guarantees the Virtu will be targeted last.

 

I would like to see shorter distortion windows personally. Core Distortion for Mesmer is fine.

Core Distortion for Virtu is not fine, so for me, something like limiting Virtu Core Distortion to 2 or 3 seconds, alongside their other distortion channels getting small cuts as well. I think this needs to be done rather soon because Virtu's are shaping up to take over parts of the Meta IMO but in a bad way.

Some of their strongest attacks are about to become unblockable because Anet is finally fixing the trait and making it work properly.

Quote

Psychic Riposte: Fixed an issue in which the unblockable effect would not apply to the entire shatter.

 

This is IMO, going to be the reason why you will see a lot more Virtu's now. I can't deny, reading that even I am most likely going to be trying out Virtu some. At the very least, this buff when paired with other class nerfs means Virtu will be one of the best Vindi killers out there going forward as Vindi relies on it's block for a lot. I can even see the case for Virtu's being able to stomp on Warriors with this change as well, but time will tell!

Edited February 12, 2023 by Waffles.5632

[Eddie.9143]

The devs don't play the game they balance. It's painfully clear. It's a money farm at this point, ANET is a greedy lazy company 

[Azure The Heartless.3261]

I wouldn't call Dragon's tooth insignificant by any means-

but distortion -is- a problem and giving it to virt was a mistake, and I would rather have seen that addressed (with some concessions given to their mobility so they can roam) instead of.... shadow nerfing Daredevil. Again.

All of the main mesmer builds are condi heavy, but slow (with off-meta builds being power oriented, and also slow)

Virt is sitting in a nice position to give it some 'nyoom' capacity, because its shatters have casts can be LoSed, but instead of that they just made it a painful-to-play (in terms of getting from point to point) and painful to play against bunker.

Anet could have made thieves -and- mesmers happy by giving mesmers a mobile build that can compete with the pre-nerfed decap builds, but they instead chose to make both unhappy by turning one into a bunker and thanosing the other. 
 

 

Edited February 12, 2023 by Azure The Heartless.3261

[Ixl Super Eu Ixl.3259]

They could increase the internal cooldown of aegis application traits, since it mitigates damage too well against some other classes who rely on single big attacks. Aegis also still allows you to capture points whereas distortion will not. It is also the boon that generates quickness, blades to throw, and it allows said blades to bypass enemy blocks and reflects. Shoot for that goal instead so Virtuoso requires more skill to be effective against lower tier players. Maybe demand that each block a Virtuoso uses only gives a sword or two instead of three. No offense meant but other than that, it sounds like personal skill issues paired with a probable lack of class knowledge. You think we are your immortal Boogeyman Virtuosos hiding in the distorted shadows, but to skilled and knowledgeable players we are just another regular fight. I distort, they get point capture progress while predicting my next move. I throw waves of blades, they read the tells and dodge them properly or use well timed line of sight tactics. I use aegis a few times in a trade and they simply swipe a quick attack to clear it before resuming their standard burst chains. I put 20+ confusion stacks on them and they either clear it or they manage their actions per second effectively. I use my Bladesong Requiem for a 2 second block that shows up to them as 6 seconds of spinning blades, but the skilled players knows it does just 1 whole torment per second and that the block duration is not associated with the duration of the spinning swords (Master of Fragmentation adds one second of spinning blades that barely do damage rather than another full second of block like the tooltip says when you hover over the trait). How about the fact that the F1/F2 (main damage skills) are projectiles, have cast times, and make you face the enemy on a class that has very little melee capability? Knowledgeable players can choose between line of sight at distance or crossing my X axis repeatedly to get behind me over and over at melee range to prevent me from casting them effectively or at all which causes lots of my traits to lose value. I am sure that you are not understanding these things or applying them. Otherwise you would have little issue with Virtuosos and their distortion in a team conquest game mode where a player's impact on the game objective is more relevant than how bad they annoy you. Nobody asked your whole team to waste their whole burst on me while I strafed side to side in my double distortion dance. Instead, just dedicate a point holding duelist to the virtuoso, and game over for mesmer. I had a recent game where I was up 350 on the top player and his duo alt buddy by farming their 3 teammates, and they flipped it and came right back by simply dedicating one of theirselves (skilled duelists) to following me around and doing all the things above. I went from farming and holding nodes to being chased in long duels that took my value away from the team. Did I get overly invested in bashing some possibly overpowered specialization? Nah, I saw my mistakes in a vacuum and then thought of what I could have done better before moving on. 

 

TLDR: A lack of knowledge will make something seem different than it really is. 

[semak.7481]

6 hours ago, Ixl Super Eu Ixl.3259 said:

They could increase the internal cooldown of aegis application traits, since it mitigates damage too well against some other classes who rely on single big attacks

6 hours ago, Ixl Super Eu Ixl.3259 said:

Maybe demand that each block a Virtuoso uses only gives a sword or two instead of three.

What the point of removing a blade that doesnt affect OP complains about invuls? Hello?

Captain obvious to the rescue:

Everyone who have a common sense knows: it has this aegis trait to proc gm trait (uk, 2 other traits are worthless), otherwise you would be stuck without blades for your life. And why 3 blades? Because you have to make 5 "clones" instead of 3, no self shatter, cast time and its a projectile and to make it effective you always want 4-5 blades otherwise its way worse than original shatters. Otherwise, why would you ever play this garbage? 

Possible solutions:

To delete block on bladesong - Rebalance virt around 3 blades, qol to bladesongs.

Unblockable trait (will eventually get nerfed) - make bladesongs not count as projectiles to ignore reflects but respect blocks.

Inspiration signet distortion trait needed a change for a long time, just like 90-120s passives that left on the mesmer but cmc "conveniently forgot" about these :)

But thats too much work, better buff ele (C) cmc.

Edited February 13, 2023 by semak.7481

[apharma.3741]

You're also forgetting that the F1 is inferior to mindwrack in every way below 5 blades, at 5 blades the damage is higher but only once you get 5 and hit with all of them. I would still call it inferior.
F2 is actually stronger than cry of frustration except it doesn't really hit in an AoE and you can't use it without blades but I'd not call it strictly worse.
F3 is utterly rubbish, doesn't pierce and is a strict downgrade of diversion.
Bladesong return is worse than distortion in that it's not a true invuln but low cool down block is what the spec needed, so I'd say it's technically worse but I think it's fair.

Distortion should never have been added but it certainly needed the aegis and bladesong return to survive longer especially against it's predator. The aegis at best makes it a poorer guardian and certainly inferior to the amount of aegis and blocks they have.
What perhaps shouldn't have been added is a channelled distortion on top of distortion shatter while also having a signet trait that can (you guessed it) give more distortion and a signet that resets all shatters including the block and distortion!
What also needs to happen is to start buffing mesmer mobility, without portal it's getting to be one of the slowest specs around now they shadow nerfed blink to 35s with no trait either.
The bladesongs are still really janky.
The dagger was balanced quite literally by a person who either hates mesmer, is super biased or doesn't play the game at all, it does terrible damage and is at odds with itself wanting to be close range but being ranged. We already have one of those weapons, it's called greatsword and it's not good but somehow it's still better than the steaming  pile of dung that is dagger.

However what is really clear about the "buffs" to mesmer recently is the devs either have no clue what to do with mesmer or more likely don't care.

Solution to an under performing elite spec? Just add distortion and then nerf other things later to compensate.
Need to buff mesmer in a big patch? Just revert half the nerfs you've been doing over the years.

[Sahne.6950]

"insignificant small things".....  nothing more to say.

[semak.7481]

4 minutes ago, apharma.3741 said:

The dagger was balanced quite literally by a person who either hates mesmer, is super biased or doesn't play the game at all

Smells like cmc...

4 minutes ago, apharma.3741 said:

However what is really clear about the "buffs" to mesmer recently is the devs either have no clue what to do with mesmer or more likely don't care.

Someone was too busy coming up with ideas how to buff ele instead.

I, somehow missed, how OP calling autoaimnuclearbomb known as DT, INSIGNIFICANT SMALL THING. Unless he means, the nerf it got, very insignificant for what it does.  Someone should be happy that certain someone is very biased towards ele, not mesmer, where it gets a small buff on a weapon then it recieves nerfs overnerfing it harder than it initially was (scepter 3).

[Dari.3654]

guess someone didnt enjoy his 2v1 against my virtuoso yesterday :D:D:D

[Khalisto.5780]

I havent played against a single good virtuoso, they surely are annoying with endless invuls block and stealth, but at the same time the dmg is not there, so those 3 things end up giving me full cap.

[Shao.7236]

I wouldn't only blame the devs. Mesmer players are so used to have Distortion and anytime it's removed in favor of something else, it's an automatic complain.

Chronomancer gets to rewind everything that happened? Why does it need Distortion? Srsly, you get a free pass to be careless and somehow require the i-frames still?

Mirage literally gets to evade on the spot, why does it need Distortion? Nah, just take away one evade instead. Because having two evades from any states is not good at all and people need to keep their i-frames.

Virtuoso doesn't rely on the RNG of clones anymore and is provided with more blocks. Why does it need distortion? It takes away from what Mesmer clones are not reliable for and hands it to the player.

This profession is just a mess that can't be bothered to teach it's players that there are other ways to achieve the same. I really wish that it would be more obvious to the eyes but even if you point it out, right away you get the finger pointed at something else in the other professions.

[Downstate.4697]

I’ve always felt virtuoso needed super speed and the ability to use shatters from behind. If they had a trait that gave super speed for 2s on shatter use, that’d be the bees knees 

[Eddie.9143]

hopefully once they see that this nerf does absolutely nothing, they will address the actual issues with cata

[semak.7481]

7 hours ago, Shao.7236 said:

I know nothing about the class whatsoever but here is my "expert" opinion

Wow... apparently cmc isnt the worst what could have happened to mesmer after all !

[TrollingDemigod.3041]

9 hours ago, Shao.7236 said:

I wouldn't only blame the devs. Mesmer players are so used to have Distortion and anytime it's removed in favor of something else, it's an automatic complain.

Chronomancer gets to rewind everything that happened? Why does it need Distortion? Srsly, you get a free pass to be careless and somehow require the i-frames still?

Mirage literally gets to evade on the spot, why does it need Distortion? Nah, just take away one evade instead. Because having two evades from any states is not good at all and people need to keep their i-frames.

Virtuoso doesn't rely on the RNG of clones anymore and is provided with more blocks. Why does it need distortion? It takes away from what Mesmer clones are not reliable for and hands it to the player.

This profession is just a mess that can't be bothered to teach it's players that there are other ways to achieve the same. I really wish that it would be more obvious to the eyes but even if you point it out, right away you get the finger pointed at something else in the other professions.

People simply got used to broken stuff and take everything for granted.
Elite Specializations were supposed to be side-grades aka "different playstyle" but in the end we ended with "upgrades".
It's not just Mesmer problem in long run, most classes are sadly in that same spot.
Necromancer somehow managed to be best example how to do elite specialization, Reaper and Scourge are completely different playstyles from Core. Harbinger is some sort of abomination without thought so let's forget it exists.
Surprisingly they have accomplished to a degree in "how-to-make-it-unique" with Revs Trident skills, why they didn't apply same mechanic for other classes and weapons?

[ZeftheWicked.3076]

L2P issue detected.

Virtuoso's block is channeled and blade songs are not instant casts - when blocking they cannot act.
Distortion and stealth prevent point capture. You win the point from a virt simply by being there. The moment he pops his "broken defenses" you get the cap for free.

Mesmer weapons suck, especially on virtuoso, who has no staff clones. And bladesongs are destroyed by projectile hate unless you let him block you which will make their next bladesong unblockable if they traited for it.

They have 3s distortion on utility skill, but just like the block and unlike the shatter version, this is a channeled skill, making them unable to act while channeling. And giving up point while doing it.

Basically build sustain, watch for confusion and watch them surrender their point for free...

Edited February 14, 2023 by ZeftheWicked.3076

[Peter.3901]

They nerfed sharpened stone, we are safe now!

Edited February 14, 2023 by Peter.3901