The Attribute Problem, or, Why Power is Always Lagging Behind

[itspomf.9523]

So I finally got around to dabbling in some condition builds again after a good 4 or so years of not liking them that much (and "beneficial" attribute combinations being difficult to acquire due to costs).  I was astounded by just how potent I felt from nothing more than a minor build change and different stats on my gear, after years of working to master a Power build that has increasingly struggled to deal with newer content, and I'm finally starting to understand not only why conditions seem so prolific, but the general preference toward them in most PvE content.

(Keep in mind, I haven't tried raiding and I've not touched fractals in even longer (maybe since 2017), so this is strictly a "filthy casual overworld PvE" perspective.)

Anyway, what stands out to me as the biggest problem with Power vs. Conditions -- and thus a lot of the game's balance -- are the attribute combinations themselves; you know, those nifty prefixes you get on your equipment that make you sound cool.  There's a ton of contention surrounding them, from whether most are useless to how best to use more obscure combinations effectively, or even who should bother with it.  All it seems to do is underscore the ongoing "meta" of the few attributes that over-perform enough to be preferred, but it also highlights why they are.

The reason for this is pretty simple, admittedly, and has nothing to do with Trinity-based games, tanking, noob-traps, and any of the myriad other reasons I've come across, but rather the mechanics of how damage itself works.  And to that end, Power always loses.

Allow me to illustrate.

To calculate the damage dealt by a condition:

1. Take the base damage per tick of the desired condition (burning, bleeding, poison, etc.) and ...
2. ... scale it by a level-dependent function of your Condition Damage attribute, resulting in the final damage per tick.

Less the infrequent percentile adjustment (i.e.:  Sigil of Bursting, various traits), that's it.  You've calculated your damage.  And that value will remain essentially constant per stack of a damaging condition.  This means that you can always, reliably, reproduceably calculate your DPS, because the equation takes little else into consideration.

However, you can also dip into Expertise, an attribute which causes all conditions you deal to last longer -- meaning a chance at more concurrent stacks of a condition for more damage per tick (and more ticks overall).

That's just one attribute, and another to further empower yourself, beyond which you're free to mix and match whatever else you want.

By contrast, to calculate the damage dealt by a strike (weapon or attack):

1. Take the base damage of the weapon as a uniformly distributed number between the minimum and maximum range of the weapon, and ...
2. ... multiply this by the Power attribute ...
3. ... times the hidden Skill Coefficient of the attack being used ...
4. ... times a level-dependent function of the Ferocity attribute (Critical Damage) if and only if RNG produces a number at or below the level-dependent function of the Precision attribute (Critical Chance) ...
5. ... divided by the target's cumulative Armor (Toughness attribute + Defense)

There's also a surfeit of percentile adjustments from traits, food items, utility items, and other things which can further modify the resulting damage -- and that's ignoring the fact that boons like Protection (-33% strike damage received) have become prolific on enemies, let alone all the conditional bonuses from traits which modify it further -- to try and figure out if your attack will do 700 damage or 3340 damage when you smack something.  And don't forget, boons like Might, Fury, and Quickness have an outsized impact on what you can do, skewing these numbers much further than they do conditions (and you probably definitely want all three to reach peak nacho cheesiness).

That's three required attributes to be effective, and a bunch of hidden nonsense you have to deal with to actually have a meaningful impact.

But why does this matter?  Because it severely limits the number of combinations that are beneficial in a game which is increasingly focused on making damage-per-second (DPS) an outsized portion of player contribution.  3 attributes already covers all core armor prefixes, and takes up three-quarters of everything after, many of which are not going to give you everything you want (except maybe Diviner's, if you just want more boons as a DPS).

Ultimately, this means that Power builds are disproportionately affected by attribute choice, because they all but require having three "key attributes" to perform well -- often, if not always, at the expense of defensive and supportive stats! -- whereas Condition builds are free to dabble in most anything they choose as a "secondary" attribute.

TL;DR:  in a game which touts itself as letting you "play your way," the mechanics themselves actively discourage using the wealth of really cool attribute combinations it provides simply because Power builds are beholden to more requirements (including boons) to maximize their effectiveness.

[Linken.6345]

To reach peak nacho cheesiness as you say it even condition builds want 3 stats namely condition damage, expertise and precsision.

Since alot of traits add more conditions on crit.

For example these.

  Radiant Fire (Radiance) — Gain Zealot's Flame when you critically hit an enemy. Burning you inflict has increased duration, and your torch skills gain reduced recharge.

  Bloodlust (Arms) — You have a chance to inflict bleeding on critical hits, and bleeds that you apply last longer.

  Furious (Arms) — Critical hits grant bonus adrenaline and gain a stacking condition damage effect.

  King of Fires (Berserker) — Increase the duration of burning you apply. Gain fire aura when you critically hit an enemy. Berserker skills detonate fire aura, damaging and burning nearby foes.

  Sharpshooter (Firearms) — Critical hits have a chance to cause bleeding.

  Incendiary Powder (Firearms) — Burning you inflict lasts longer, and your critical hits inflict burning.

  Sharpened Edges (Skirmishing) — You and your pet have a chance to cause bleeding on critical hits.

  Burning Precision (Fire) — Burning you inflict has increased duration and your critical hits gain a chance to inflict burning.

  Arcane Precision (Arcane) — Your critical strikes have a chance to inflict a condition based on your attunement.

  Sharper Images (Dueling) — Illusions inflict bleeding on critical hits.

  Barbed Precision (Curses) — Critical hits have a chance to cause bleeding. Increases bleed duration.

 

So if you think slaping on condition damage and then going willy nilly on second and third stat you are limiting yourself.

Edited February 24, 2023 by Linken.6345

[Epsilon Indi.2031]

46 minutes ago, Linken.6345 said:

To reach peak nacho cheesiness as you say it even condition builds want 3 stats namely condition damage, expertise and precsision.

Since alot of traits add more conditions on crit.

For example these.

  Radiant Fire (Radiance) — Gain Zealot's Flame when you critically hit an enemy. Burning you inflict has increased duration, and your torch skills gain reduced recharge.

  Bloodlust (Arms) — You have a chance to inflict bleeding on critical hits, and bleeds that you apply last longer.

  Furious (Arms) — Critical hits grant bonus adrenaline and gain a stacking condition damage effect.

  King of Fires (Berserker) — Increase the duration of burning you apply. Gain fire aura when you critically hit an enemy. Berserker skills detonate fire aura, damaging and burning nearby foes.

  Sharpshooter (Firearms) — Critical hits have a chance to cause bleeding.

  Incendiary Powder (Firearms) — Burning you inflict lasts longer, and your critical hits inflict burning.

  Sharpened Edges (Skirmishing) — You and your pet have a chance to cause bleeding on critical hits.

  Burning Precision (Fire) — Burning you inflict has increased duration and your critical hits gain a chance to inflict burning.

  Arcane Precision (Arcane) — Your critical strikes have a chance to inflict a condition based on your attunement.

  Sharper Images (Dueling) — Illusions inflict bleeding on critical hits.

  Barbed Precision (Curses) — Critical hits have a chance to cause bleeding. Increases bleed duration.

 

So if you think slaping on condition damage and then going willy nilly on second and third stat you are limiting yourself.

Outside of Virtuoso, on-crit abilities aren't really utilized or necessarily built into as the condition weapons that apply hits are generally rather slow in attacking or don't/can't crit (So the extra conditions on crit wouldn't really matter) or the class can place so many sources of strike damage that can crit down that it procs the effect off cooldown even with low crit chance (See guardian symbols on firebrand).  While there is a minimum amount of precision you'll need on condition builds, it's only ever actually needed to push 100% on a couple builds.  Not to mention that Firebrand also gains a lot of crit chance from just having burning & fury.

[Cuks.8241]

1 hour ago, Andifulated.3482 said:

Outside of Virtuoso, on-crit abilities aren't really utilized or necessarily built into as the condition weapons that apply hits are generally rather slow in attacking or don't/can't crit (So the extra conditions on crit wouldn't really matter) or the class can place so many sources of strike damage that can crit down that it procs the effect off cooldown even with low crit chance (See guardian symbols on firebrand).  While there is a minimum amount of precision you'll need on condition builds, it's only ever actually needed to push 100% on a couple builds.  Not to mention that Firebrand also gains a lot of crit chance from just having burning & fury.

But all condition build also deal power dmg. It varies between builds but its not insignificant. Many power builds deal practically no condition dmg. 

[Epsilon Indi.2031]

11 minutes ago, Cuks.8241 said:

But all condition build also deal power dmg. It varies between builds but its not insignificant. Many power builds deal practically no condition dmg. 

Grieving was an attribute prefix that was used ages ago on firebrand.  Even Viper's is a hybrid attribute and not purely condition damage, but a pure condition build (Over 75% of its damage is from condition effects inflicted) doesn't really have to invest much into precision unless they have a lot of (Or their primary condition damage dealing abilities) require high crit chance to  happen.

[Eekasqueak.7850]

Aren't all the top benchmarks power builds right now?

[the krytan assassin.9235]

Id say condi is relatively weak compared to power atm. The only places where condi shines is in pvp, WvW roaming and open world boss soloing. For WvW zergs the damaging condis are pretty much useless due to the insane amount of cleanses. For open world trash mobs power is normally favoured aswell due to the lack of ramp up time in power. Even for harder boss fights/ bounty's etc Celestial is favoured over a pure condi spec. 

In Dungeons and fractals power is favoured over condi due to the limited duration of the fights (except for some CM's). 

In strikes power is usually preferred over condi aswell due to the scaling with the SAK for IBS strikes  and phasing of the bosses that reset your condi ramp up time. 

For raids most power builds are favoured aswell. Id say  about 50% of the raid encounters are favoured for power dps, 40% doesn't matter that much and 10% favors condi builds with confusion. 

 

The dps output of the current power builds are roughly the same as their condi dmge counterpart, so in general power>condi due to lack in ramp up time. 

 

The only real problem that power struggles with is quickness uptime in solo open world. The effect is massive and scales alot better with power then condi. Meanwhile condi builds tends to rely more on alac uptime but that effect is relatively small compared to quickness. Fury is relatively easy to get so not that big of a problem and might favours condi alot more then power so that shouldn't be a problem either. 

[Noodle Ant.1605]

i think its more largely part of how power functions multiplicatively (lots of % effects) while condi is more “additive” in comparison (deal additional condi etc). when both are optimised to deal maximum damage then it might seem somewhat balanced, but when you start taking things away (e.g. replace a traitline for sustain, replace stats with tough/vit) that it starts becoming a bit more visible. attribute disparity definitely contributes a bit to this, but i wouldnt say that changing it would entirely fix the “problem”

to balance the two youd probably need to make power “less multiplicative” by axing a lot of the %effects so a power build isnt looking at a 4x increase from just trait + rune/sigil choices, and or make condi “less additive” by axing base condi output and beefing up the importance of condi dmg traits (ones other than the 2-3 big ones)

[Sansar.1302]

condition damage is so op in smal scale wvw that it takes alot of fun out of it

Edited February 25, 2023 by Sansar.1302

[Dawdler.8521]

1 hour ago, Sansar.1302 said:

condition damage is so op in smal scale wvw that it takes alot of fun out of it

Well, ignoring the fact around 8 out of 10 smallscale builds run either power or celestial, because power got exponential gains over 1v1 when focusing targets, pure condi is hard countered by many roamers and celestial offer about as much condi damage as condi sets because they have constant 25 might, while also having close to the power damage of a power build. 

[Sansar.1302]

39 minutes ago, Dawdler.8521 said:

Well, ignoring the fact around 8 out of 10 smallscale builds run either power or celestial, because power got exponential gains over 1v1 when focusing targets, pure condi is hard countered by many roamers and celestial offer about as much condi damage as condi sets because they have constant 25 might, while also having close to the power damage of a power build. 

Think most run celestial, and they tend to do most of their damage from condi from my experience because so many classes have spamable condi application and power burst skills tend to have long cds

[Asum.4960]

7 hours ago, the krytan assassin.9235 said:

Id say condi is relatively weak compared to power atm. The only places where condi shines is in pvp, WvW roaming and open world boss soloing. For WvW zergs the damaging condis are pretty much useless due to the insane amount of cleanses. For open world trash mobs power is normally favoured aswell due to the lack of ramp up time in power. Even for harder boss fights/ bounty's etc Celestial is favoured over a pure condi spec. 

In Dungeons and fractals power is favoured over condi due to the limited duration of the fights (except for some CM's). 

In strikes power is usually preferred over condi aswell due to the scaling with the SAK for IBS strikes  and phasing of the bosses that reset your condi ramp up time. 

For raids most power builds are favoured aswell. Id say  about 50% of the raid encounters are favoured for power dps, 40% doesn't matter that much and 10% favors condi builds with confusion. 

 

The dps output of the current power builds are roughly the same as their condi dmge counterpart, so in general power>condi due to lack in ramp up time. 

 

The only real problem that power struggles with is quickness uptime in solo open world. The effect is massive and scales alot better with power then condi. Meanwhile condi builds tends to rely more on alac uptime but that effect is relatively small compared to quickness. Fury is relatively easy to get so not that big of a problem and might favours condi alot more then power so that shouldn't be a problem either. 

 

6 hours ago, Noodle Ant.1605 said:

i think its more largely part of how power functions multiplicatively (lots of % effects) while condi is more “additive” in comparison (deal additional condi etc). when both are optimised to deal maximum damage then it might seem somewhat balanced, but when you start taking things away (e.g. replace a traitline for sustain, replace stats with tough/vit) that it starts becoming a bit more visible. attribute disparity definitely contributes a bit to this, but i wouldnt say that changing it would entirely fix the “problem”

to balance the two youd probably need to make power “less multiplicative” by axing a lot of the %effects so a power build isnt looking at a 4x increase from just trait + rune/sigil choices, and or make condi “less additive” by axing base condi output and beefing up the importance of condi dmg traits (ones other than the 2-3 big ones)

I think these two nailed those two points. 

 

In summary:

Power as instant damage is inherently superior to Conditions as delayed damage - which is why condi builds generally need design advantages like more DPS-Uptime, such as range, and/or more sustained DPS as compensation to keep up. But power requires more multiplicative modifiers to be effective and is therefor more limited in Trait choices - while Condition damage, which really is hybrid in nature, scales off of more stats and therefor is more flexible when it comes to Attribute Combinations. 

So while Power is technically superior, Condi is more flexible and adaptable. 

Edited February 25, 2023 by Asum.4960

[Mell.4873]

1 hour ago, Asum.4960 said:

 

I think these two nailed those two points. 

 

In summary:

Power as instant damage is inherently superior to Conditions as delayed damage - which is why condi builds generally need design advantages like more DPS-Uptime, such as range, and/or more sustained DPS as compensation to keep up. But power requires more multiplicative modifiers to be effective and is therefor more limited in Trait choices - while Condition damage, which really is hybrid in nature, scales off of more stats and therefor is more flexible when it comes to Attribute Combinations. 

So while Power is technically superior, Condi is more flexible and adaptable. 

Pretty much what I see across all game modes. Power does the most damage but has less utility. Conditions do slightly lower damage but offers more utility. 

Support DPS go further down the utility route and Support Healers can sometime be entirely utility or gimmicks, Scourge healer for example. 

[AliamRationem.5172]

I think it would help if toughness and ferocity didn't hate each other.  With buffs to crit rate and vitality, there's a little more room to add toughness to power builds for solo play.   

For example, stats like dragon and marauder are often recommended, but most classes don't need extra vitality while extra toughness improves the value of the health they already have.  

I'd like to see sets like marauder/dragon but with toughness in place of vitality.

[Forgotten Legend.9281]

PvP has Paladin stats (which is POWER, PRECISION, vitality, toughness) among others that could possibly help power builds with some defense, but Anet just won't say why they don't offer these stat combinations in PvE / WvW

[Dadnir.5038]

14 hours ago, Eekasqueak.7850 said:

Aren't all the top benchmarks power builds right now?

It's an issue of the OP not specifying the gamemode.

• I'd say that condition damage and strike damage are pretty much even in PvE.
• In large scale PvP (WvW zerg), It's pretty much pointless to use condition damage (the semi-passive cleanse there is permanent to counter corrupt boons which itself counter boon generation).
• In small scale PvP (sPvP/WvW roaming), condition damage always feel more potent than strike damage. Paradoxally, it's especially true right now because we are in a Strike damage meta. If we were in a condition meta, people would run more counters to conditions (Cleanse/resistance/resolution/specialized traits... etc.) and would be more aware of which skills applying conditions they should or shouldn't avoid.

Edited February 25, 2023 by Dadnir.5038

[Jobber.6348]

It doesn't matter for what game mode, Power builds do not utilize 25 might as efficiently as Condi builds. 

Power builds inflict damage, that's it. 

Condi builds inflict damage, with Condi ticking. 

 

Power builds only utilize only 750 of the total 1500 stat of 25 Might

Condi builds utilize full 1500 stats from 25 Might. 

 

Solution: Give every single Profession's power line a stat converter for Might like Notoriety or Awaken the Pain. 

 

PS: I don't believe in benchmarks. Benchmarking on a golem does not translate well to actual PvE encounters where things like melee builds no matter the damage type just eat doo doo compared to ranged builds with uptime. So people can just randomly say oh your Power Benchmarks are all higher, but in actual content, the one doing the most damage is actually that Scourge over there with way higher uptime from being both ranged and Condi so they can resolve encounters without stopping their DPS for too long. 

[the krytan assassin.9235]

4 hours ago, Yasai.3549 said:

It doesn't matter for what game mode, Power builds do not utilize 25 might as efficiently as Condi builds. 

Power builds inflict damage, that's it. 

Condi builds inflict damage, with Condi ticking. 

 

Power builds only utilize only 750 of the total 1500 stat of 25 Might

Condi builds utilize full 1500 stats from 25 Might. 

 

Solution: Give every single Profession's power line a stat converter for Might like Notoriety or Awaken the Pain. 

 

PS: I don't believe in benchmarks. Benchmarking on a golem does not translate well to actual PvE encounters where things like melee builds no matter the damage type just eat doo doo compared to ranged builds with uptime. So people can just randomly say oh your Power Benchmarks are all higher, but in actual content, the one doing the most damage is actually that Scourge over there with way higher uptime from being both ranged and Condi so they can resolve encounters without stopping their DPS for too long. 

That would honestly make it worse for power builds. The current balance is designed around having perma boon uptime. Adding extra power to might would only mean that open world builds will become more condi favoured since power will have to invest more resources to secure its 25 stacks of might. 

 

Also you mention that scourge is often top dps because it has ranged and condi. Sure i can understand the benefits of ranged combat, but there's literally 0 reason to prefer condi over power damage. Everytime a boss phases/becomes invul the condi loses a crapload of damage. On top of that the burst potential of power builds is way higher. The burst potential of power builds (lets say a quick ~800k of dmge) is usually about 40% higher then their condi alternatives. 

[Jobber.6348]

2 hours ago, the krytan assassin.9235 said:

Adding extra power to might would only mean that open world builds will become more condi favoured since power will have to invest more resources to secure its 25 stacks of might. 

There are plenty of Open World builds that can self sustain 25 might with a little bit of Boon Duration.

Off the top of my head: Herald, any sort of GS Warrior, Flamethrower Scrapper 

 

And besides, I've never heard of Condi being favoured in Open World, since Open World content dies rather quickly if it's not some meta event boss objective, this heavily skews most builds toward power to simply kill mobs and move along. 

 

2 hours ago, the krytan assassin.9235 said:

Also you mention that scourge is often top dps because it has ranged and condi. Sure i can understand the benefits of ranged combat, but there's literally 0 reason to prefer condi over power damage. Everytime a boss phases/becomes invul the condi loses a crapload of damage. On top of that the burst potential of power builds is way higher. The burst potential of power builds (lets say a quick ~800k of dmge) is usually about 40% higher then their condi alternatives. 

I'm just using Scourge as a gauge to sell my point: Benchmarks are not to be believed as gospel. Scourge just happens to be both Ranged + Condi which I use as my comparison for people going "Aren't most top Benchmarks Power builds?" and most of these Benchmark builds are Power + Melee. What I was trying to point out is that Benchmarking against a golem is hardly realistic, but more of an ideal. 

 

I understand people hate Snowcrows but I'll just use its benchmarks as a quick example:

Out of Top 5 of the Benchmarks in Snowcrows, 3 of them are Power + Melee. 

https://snowcrows.com/en/benchmarks

 

[Asum.4960]

23 hours ago, Yasai.3549 said:

PS: I don't believe in benchmarks. Benchmarking on a golem does not translate well to actual PvE encounters where things like melee builds no matter the damage type just eat doo doo compared to ranged builds with uptime. So people can just randomly say oh your Power Benchmarks are all higher, but in actual content, the one doing the most damage is actually that Scourge over there with way higher uptime from being both ranged and Condi so they can resolve encounters without stopping their DPS for too long. 

Yes and no. You are right to take Benchmarks with a grain of salt for how they are quite frequently misused by the community as rankings (somewhat understandably so with how they are presented), rather than what they actually are - reference points, devoid of context. But there are quite a few more subtleties to this. 

 

For one, Benchmarking sites like SC always list the last damage report tick of the Golem as a builds "DPS" - rather than averaging all of them out. 

This skews perception quite a bit in favour of Condition Builds, as Power Builds open up with massive bursts and then slowly "fizzle out" to stabilize on a lower number than their actual average DPS, while Condition Damage Builds slowly ramp up to stabilize on their peak, higher than their actual average DPS.

 

Secondly, while it's true that DPS-Uptime is king (and not at all represented in Benchmarks, as ranking builds isn't their actual purpose), and Condi Builds usually have the higher DPS-Uptime - this is done by design to compensate for their inherent weaknesses, not to give them an advantage. Condi Builds need that higher DPS-Uptime to catch up to Strike Damage bursts, as well as to make up for losing massive amounts of damage to phasing.

 

Thirdly, the performance of Power vs. Condi also depends on group context. Low to average skill groups with low Group DPS have longer phases and more mechanics to deal with, which are generally better suited for Condition builds. 

High skill groups with high group DPS have short phases and skipped mechanics, which favours Strike Damage. 

 

It's not really that there is anything wrong with Benchmarks (besides their general presentation on sites), it's just that they are misinterpreted and misused. 

DPS Benchmarks aren't a ranking of Builds against each other, displaying which build performs the best in practice - they are lists of reference points to measure yourself against on a given build in a controlled environment for the purposes of self-improvement.